Frenemies Talk, Chapter XII feat. Skeeter The Lurker and Manaphy

Frenemies Talk, Chapter XII: Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?

A Princess Luna episode. Finally! You could almost see me shiver with antici...pation! Anyway, since the importance of such episode is, naturally, grand, we have brought in some very special people tonight, folks! Dreaming about magic sheep, fighting nightmarish creatures and fulfilling their fantasies of being Magical Princesses, just like Big Mac, are: a returning panelist, avatar of the great Aku – Skeeter The Lurker and the most brony of pokémons around – Manaphy.

Now listen to my voice... close your eyes... and spoilers... Ekhm, I mean, sleeeeeeep...

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"They come here not to sleep, but to be woken up. The dream has become their reality. Who are you to say otherwise?"

Prane: I’ll start by saying I have mixed feelings about this episode. On one hand it’s a Luna one, and since those are a rare enough treat I’m willing to give it some bonus points just for being out there. Along with Luna we get a whole bunch of dreamy stuff which builds nicely on what we’ve learned in the past. On the other hand, the episode was packed with messy action sequences and had terrible pacing which kept speeding up ever since Spike sent that letter, up to the grand finale. Combine that with a handful of questionable visuals like Luna’s dream spaghetti spell, LyraBon hybrid, or supposedly terrifying, but actually quite off-putting buildings and you’ll get a rather confusing experience overall. There was no time for us or our heroes to reflect on why Luna created Tantabus in the first place - something which I believe could be a strong point of the episode! - and what little explanation we’ve got in the end was served after we’ve already been fed a blended mixture of randomness. Which, might I add, did not taste good.

Now, I understand that dreams are often strange and illogical, but recalling Apple Bloom’s dream sequences from the beginning of the season proves they don’t have to be chaotic and muddled. I think the main problem was that it included all of Main Six (and even some of Spike’s boring comic relief), and that very thing made the episode feel chopped to bits. Had it started out only with Twilight learning about Luna’s struggle, then talking to her, and helping her deal with her fears (perhaps bringing frieinforcements along the way), it would be a much better episode.

There was a time I watched Star Wars movies only for lightsaber duels and space battles. Action! Things! Excitement! That’s what was making these movies great for me, but then I grew older and became a not so easily satisfiable consumer. I realized that there are things out there which I would like to discover instead of witnessing another explosion. In this episode, I could definitely use a scene of Luna silently staring into the distance. Just that, a good animation to show her regret. She has a moment like that halfway through the episode, but it’s immediately ruined by the very presence of Pinkie Pie, so there’s no time for that regret to sink in.

I expected Princess Luna, but got Princess Big Mac instead.

Gulheru: An episode with Princess Luna is a treat, I do agree. Especially for me, as I find myself a loyal supporter of our Lady of Dreams. I mean, who doesn’t like a character with a darker side, no? But before I begin writing eulogies in honor of the Great Princess, the Weaver of Fantasies, the Protector of Dreamrealm, the Sovereign of Night and the Immaculate Moon, I should begin from the start.

And so, Tantabus. To be fair, I was expecting this force to have a character of some sort. Being a creature created by Luna, an embodiment of her guilt, I was prepared to witness some taunting, maybe maniacal laughter, something similar to Nightmare Moon. And as much as I do not mind a menacing presence being just a presence, I am a bit sad that we cannot expand our rogues gallery with a new face. Of course, the concept itself is intriguing. This pain that Luna is causing herself, as to be reminded of the horrors that Nightmare Moon wrought upon Equestria once, should be a force to be reckoned with, yet I cannot feel a certain absence of satisfaction in conjunction with the absence of its personality.

Now back to our Lady of Dreams. Many would possibly think that a gesture of self-harm like Luna’s is taking things a bit too far, but, frankly, I think it is a sign of the strength of her character. Being forgiven is one thing, accepted back into the society is another, but to then still find the spirit to bear your own failure and take the responsibility and blame for it? By repenting on your own, never to forget and to stay aware of your misdeeds? For me that is a sign of an apt and inspiring ruler, one that I would any night pledge my loyalty to.

On the side note, I am delighted to witness Luna’s chamber, very stylish, very “hers”. Oh, and, of course, her dream of just… calmly sleeping? I haven’t seen a cuter picture in the series. Ever. Period.

But, I would not be objective without pointing out the flaws of the episode. Pacing of it was equal to watching a sped-up movie. Thank Luna that the voices did not get distorted. Not to mention Tantabus must have been a fan of Salvador Dali, some of the created monsters would fit in his paintings. For an episode treating about guilt and repentance, I believe we would do without Mighty Morphing Pretty Guardian Sailor Big McIntosh (although I cannot deny the hilarity of this moment), nor some other, quite ridiculous moments. Give more space to Luna. We need more of her. A lot more.

Manaphy: While I did enjoy the episode, I’d have to agree with you in regards to the pacing. To start off, I’ll note that I found Luna’s character arc to be one of the best parts of the episode. Understanding more of who Luna is, mainly in regards to her regrets, made her an engaging character. I’ll admit, I’ve experienced emotions similar to what Princess Luna was going through during the episode. While some people may have not been fond of her more melancholic side, I felt she was a character people like myself could relate to. It’s such moments like these which remind me why I came to adore the series so much. I could see some of myself in Luna, and I wouldn’t be surprised if other people felt the same way.

As to how this fits into the pacing, perhaps making the resolution not as quick could’ve helped here. While it was clear to the audience how much the ponies cared for Luna, it might not have been obvious to Luna. Maybe a bit more time for Luna to dwell on this may have helped (though there was the Tantabus problem which needed taking care of first). As for Tantabus, having a little more time at the end for the others to reflect on its origins would have been nice. Though I do think having Luna withhold what it was until the end of the episode did add to the impact. It showed how powerful these feelings were to her to the point where she kept it a secret for so long. Hiding such personal information is quite believable, as those such as myself can attest to. Would it have been nice to know more about Tantabus? Yeah. However, how the episode went about it was acceptable in my opinion.

Regarding the randomness, I feel that it was a mixture of good and bad. I’m going to confess right here and admit the Princess Big Mac scene made me giggle, as did the Lyra and Bon Bon bit. However, the randomness does take away a little of the focus on Luna, though this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Comedy in serious stories like this are definitely welcome, as many great stories have shown in the past. Whether the comedy and randomness were hits or misses, however, are up for debate. I found them to be a mixture of both, but leaning more on the positive, though I also understand why not everyone would be fond of it.

As for the Mane 6, while seeing their nightmares was good for some chuckles, it did make the episode feel quite rushed at points as it tried to include all of them in 22 minutes. I bet some people are going to have fun with some of the nightmares in artworks and stories. This also brings up Princess Celestia in my thoughts, as it does connect with this. As Luna mentioned, Celestia doesn’t get involved in dreams as she lacks power over them. This was a great piece of world-building, though I was expecting Celestia to play a bigger role. She might not be able to give Luna a helping hoof, but being her sister, I bet she could have made a great contribution to the episode if used correctly, though it’d probably push some of the Mane 6 to the side. Having Celestia appear to show Luna how much she and Equestria care for her would have been touching to see, for example. Despite this, I don’t mind her not being in the episode too much, though I still would have preferred to see her. Luna got a wonderful amount of character development nonetheless, which was the most important part of this episode.

Anyway, the aforementioned characterization of Luna was brilliant in my opinion, the visuals were stunning as usual, I liked how the cast all contributed in a way, and it covered themes of guilt and sadness in a touching manner. It was a good episode in my opinion and one I would definitely recommend. But with some minor tweaks as discussed before, it could have ranked among my favorites. At least that’s how I feel about it.

Skeeter The Lurker: Oooooooo-ooooo! I do love when we get a decent bit of character building! And this certainly had it for Luna. A nice idea at how she can traverse the dreams and how dreams in Equestria in general can be so… Hm, fluid? Yes, fluid is a good choice, I think. Even more was how the Mane 6 all acknowledged that they were in a dream. Makes me wonder if the dreamer has an insane amount of control, but Luna can override that. Kinda like a “One Ring” thing, if you will. Still, I honestly liked how they handled it.

Now that we did have this episode about Luna’s nature and character, I have to wonder if we’ll have one for SunButt herself. Hopefully we will.

As far as the pacing of the episode… I found it to be pretty spot on, myself. It did what it needed to do in the time it had and it did it well. Actually, if I’m truly honest I believe that this episode should have been switched with Slice of Life. While both were very strong and completely crazy, this felt more like it was worthy of the 100th mark honor. SoL was more suited for leaving us wondering what the heck was going on for the hiatus.

AND RAINBOW’S DREAM WAS INDEED TERRIFYING.

"Nah, don't worry about me, Princess, I just suffer from a disorder called sleep fighting. It's only bad when I'm losing."

Gulheru: I would not be my real self but a Luna-forsaken impostor if I did not ask about your opinion on a matter that has crossed my mind after seeing the episode. Sure, turning into Nightmare Moon must have been a terrifying and scarring experience, but do you think Luna might be going too far after all? Her martyrdom tendencies, manifested by the creation of Tantabus just so she is constantly reminded of the pain she caused (which I find to be an appealing side of her character, showing her virtues) it’s a rather drastic measure after all. I know I would support her through that idea, but I wonder about your opinions. Is this repentance justifiable? Because I understand the desire of the creators to show that she is feeling guilty, but should it be done in quite such a sacrificial way?

I, for once… well, I hate seeing her cry. It breaks my ice-cold heart.

What are your thoughts?

Manaphy: While it does feel like Luna went too far in regards to creating Tantabus, I do understand why she felt the need to create such a creature. It’s no secret that Luna still feels guilty over her actions as Nightmare Moon, and such guilt can lead into certain behaviors that are not healthy. Luna felt that she needed to be punished for her past actions, hence the creation of Tantabus. It’s a realistic interpretation of how people—or ponies in this case—are impacted by guilt and depression. They sometimes feel the need to punish themselves in some way. Believe me, I’ve been in Luna’s situation in the past regarding such emotions. Tantabus, in a way, is a symbol of Luna’s depressed emotions, and when Luna realizes how much Ponyville cares for her, Tantabus vanishes.

As such, whether Luna’s reaction to her guilt and depression are justifiable or understandable will vary from viewer to viewer. As for me, I understood where Luna was coming from based on how I could relate to her. Sure, her reactions may have been overboard, but I think that’s the point. It’s something that happens in real life, after all, and watching Luna’s struggle to overcome such emotions helped make the episode more meaningful. As others have probably said, Luna is one of those characters you wish you could hug and make feel better. Such a quality makes her a strong character as a result in my opinion. It also makes me hope to see her again in a future episode, maybe where she’s using what she learned to help others in need.

Skeeter The Lurker: I believe she went way too far. There was no need to create that creature at all. I honestly find people (or ponies) who do that very… Eccentric? If anything, all Luna needed to do was endure and embrace the fact that she has a day dedicated to her time as the Nightmare that people celebrate and joke about. And once she did learn that and accept that, she’d probably have found it easier to forgive herself for that mess.

Don’t get me wrong, of course, those who do go to that extreme as she did in this should get a smidge of respect because it does indeed say a lot about about their character. It’s just plain unneeded, is all.

Prane: What Luna did may seem extreme, but it shows her great courage and dedication. She realized what she did in the past was wrong and she genuinely regrets it, she knows she can’t, she mustn’t allow anything like that to happen ever again.

People only choose such a solution if they think there is no other way for them to make up for their past mistakes. They’d rather suffer a thousand times again and again rather than allow anybody else to be hurt. Are they right in their doings? Yes, from a certain point of view. They believe that the suffering to which they willingly succumb will make them stronger, and the continuous pain will make them vigilant and more sensitive should any danger arise, and thus more effective in preventing those at the cost of their own well-being. Which of course doesn’t matter because they’re in the “repenter” mode. A perfectly logical choice to make yet missing an important factor: the eventual absolution. They won’t give it to themselves, they won’t accept it if given by others. They are stuck in their endless crusade to right the wrong, forever haunted by their past.

Unless someone else talks to them and reminds that we all make mistakes, and that instead of living for our past we should live for the future. Please, Luna, think of how much good you can and surely will do for the ponies of Equestria! Myself, I made a ton of mistakes, yet je ne regrette rien, so why should you? And, as the song follows: Because my life, my joys, today, they begin with you.

Next morning: Spike wakes up covered in mares after everyone saw him evolving into a brave and handsome knight. Then he wakes up.

Manaphy: One aspect about the episode which caught my attention was how dreams were interpreted. While we’ve seen the surrealism of dreams in previous episodes, namely the ones where Luna teaches the Cutie Mark Crusaders an important lesson, how dreams were utilized here got me thinking. Since it was mentioned how the dreamer had some sort of control over the dream, could this be a subtle hint about some of our favorite characters? While we had the typical examples of what ponies would do, such as Rarity stitching the dream’s hole back together, we had Princess Big Mac, two of the Power Ponies returning, Lyra and Bon Bon’s fusion, and so on. Even the nightmares the Mane 6 endured could be linked to their character in a way. So while this delves more into headcanon and speculation territory, could the use of dreams and how they’re controlled be used as a way to build upon the characters in future stories? There’s more potential than ever on how dreams are utilized in the MLP universe. So what are your thoughts on what we learned about dreams?

Skeeter The Lurker: I think it’s possible for them to be used as such. But it’d be just as easy to pile it all under insane things going on in said dream. It would really be up to the writer to use dreams that way and strike that balance.

I will say, though, that it’s quite curious to find that Luna has a number of dream related spells. I’d honestly much rather learn more on that aspect.

Prane: When AJ runs into her brother he’s a unicorn. I see it as a metaphor for telling that he yearns greatness, maybe not through magic itself but by rising above his mundane farm life and achieving something more. In other words, he’s dead bored by all those apples and he deserves a break! An overworked fellow like him could use a little vacation. I say special five minute episode, Big Mac and Fleetfoot, fancy restaurant in Canterlot - who’s with me? That said, it better be that unspoken wish of breaking free, because if his deepest desire is to become a pretty, pretty princess, then he just lost my respect.

It also seems that Filthy Rich would make a good superhero, because we all know that money is best superpower (fanfic stub: he actually is working on something like that, but a cliche accident happens and he dies/is injured, but then Diamond Tiara discovers his stash of gold, shiny gadgets and becomes Ponyville’s Aureate Avenger - bam, feature box for a week!).

I’m all in for shipping Lyra and Bon Bon, but when I saw the two joined together I really wanted to strap it to a table in some abandoned lab, fed with lead, kill with fire, dissolve what remains in acid, destroy the lab (with even more fire!) so that no one ever had to watch such a horrendous, abysmal monstrosity ever again. Yes, I’m done now.

Gulheru: I am intrigued by a possibility of character development via dreams, but I would have to question its reliability. After all, dreams seem to be fickle and always changing. Not to mention, unless we are dealing with the, so called “lucid dream”, then we do not have any saying about the state of the Dreamscape. In this, particular situation, the ponies of Ponyville were granted the awareness that they are dreaming so that they can battle the Tantabus. But under normal circumstances, without Luna involved, we would simply have a series of psychedelic visions, seldomly contributing to the characters.

Not saying that we did not have those this time.

Other than that, I shall refrain myself from oneiromancy and interpreting dreams of ponies. Hidden desires are often buried deep enough within our minds that we have no idea they are there. Not to mention that “the sleep of reason produces monsters” often enough and has nothing to do with what we really are. As such, I would avoid putting too much hope in expanding characters via their slumbers.

Remember: when creating robots, bioengineered hybrids, or nightmarish mists make sure they have a secret off switch only you know about, just in case.

Skeeter The Lurker: Let’s end off and talk about headcanon! Headcanon and the wild and wonderful world of fan fiction! How do you all think this will affect the various fan fic writers around? Will it make other existing fan fics worse? Like it or not, we just had a more, I guess ‘mysterious’ character’s character revealed in large chunk.

I don’t think it’ll change too much, honestly. Most of what was shown seems to hold true to what most believe already. Indeed, my own personal headcanon of her only changed in terms of who she is and how she acts.

Prane: Considering how strongly this first half of the season has been shaping the universe so far, sometimes conflicting with many of our headcanons, I’m actually surprised this episode didn’t have greater impact. There were two main fields which could have been affected, and that is the character of Princess Luna and the rules - or lack of thereof - of the world of dreams. Since I’m no expert of fandom’s Luna and I am yet to take a closer look at her psyche myself, I guess that the creation of Tantabus added nicely to what we’ve been writing about ever since she reappeared back in Season 2, and that is her struggle to fit in. Technically speaking, she is a reformed villain, and it’s nice to see that no amount of rainbows can turn you Lawful Good all of the sudden with no difficult to deal with consequences. Although Tantabus itself wasn’t that important for me, I bet someone will find the way to include it in their stories. It’s always nice to have a name for a blue smoke thingy like that!

The other aspect that could have been influenced but in the end wasn’t, was the world of dreams - Dreamworld, Dreamscape, Dreamrealm, your choice. We already knew there was such “plane” in Equestrian cosmology and that shared dreams are a possibility via Luna’s magic. We got visuals for that, but I’m sure authors will keep to their own visions on how does one enter the dream - personally I find it hard to believe that whenever Luna organizes shared dreaming she flies up and creates a bright as hell rope across Equestria. I imagine she enters the Dreamworld first and then seeks for dreamers like Charles Xavier hooking up to Cerebro. I’ll be honest: I can’t really tell if how they presented the world was good because I happened to have written a dream sequence or two myself, and because of that my opinion might be, or rather most certainly is, biased. I’ll definitely keep to my own presentation of the Dreamworld, because I’ve already established it to be (I believe) a more interesting place compared to what the episode presented with its “let’s throw ALL the things into a one big dream” attitude.

Gulheru: As a long-term fan of Princess Luna (considering that the idea of the Lunar Republic got me hooked on the show as much as Discord did) I am not affected by this episode when it comes to my headcanon. Personally, I always believed our Alicorn of the Night to be a bit more clandestine than Celestia. While others deal with justice and morals, somepony around must keep the darker side of the World’s nature in check. So why not Luna? I believe that was exactly her duty, to stand vigil against the forces of darkness, that spawned the attention of the Nightmare. And, as “even the gods lack purity in their hearts”... we know the rest.

I think that this episode fleshed out the character for me in a believable way. Luna still would not be afraid to dabble in more shadowy practices, but, to keep herself in check, she had the Tantabus. And now, knowing that the ponies care about her deeply, she would not need even that to be certain that she shall not fall down the path of Nightmare again, even if venturing into the more shadowy places of pony nature...

So, my headcanon was spared, even made stronger, I’d like to believe. Also, I particularly liked the visuals of the… urgh, “dream spaghetti spell” (I hate you, Prane). I believe this to be a manifestation of a particular type of spells affecting minds, brought to its extremity by Luna’s extraordinary powers. I know a character that is well familiar with the subject of mentalism, so I am glad that my previous concept of “spell visuals” was confirmed.

Manaphy: From my experience regarding headcanon, I don’t think it’ll change too much. As I mentioned earlier, how dreams are used could make for some interesting stories and devices for character development, not to mention how Tantabus’ origins tie into Luna’s guilt from becoming Nightmare Moon. For the most part, I think this episode will create more headcanons, some of which may be used as building blocks for future stories the fans make. For example, ideas about why the nightmares turned out the way they did and maybe even more detail on how Luna decided to create Tantabus as her self-inflicted punishment will become interesting topics for debate in chats and in fics. As a whole, while there may be some changes in how dreams are made, Luna’s past, and some other points of interest such as the nightmares and Princess Big Mac, headcanons will likely remain similar.

As for existing fics, I don’t think they’ll end up better or worse as a result of this episode. After all, many fics are impacted due to events and revelations in the source material. I’ve seen long running fics use ideas or characterizations which were discredited by the show in future episodes, so even if the fic doesn’t fit the canon perfectly, they shouldn’t be impacted too much, if at all.

But as headcanons vary from person to person and are quite malleable, I imagine some people will have a different view or experience regarding the episode’s reveals than how I interpreted it. I guess one could say it’s part of the fun in creating headcanons.

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Phew, that was a good one! We thank our guests, Skeeter The Lurker and Manaphy, very much. We hope to see you in the future, with more topics to discuss and more episodes to cover.

Now, alas, we have to part. But, fear not, the Frenemies shall be back as soon as the next episode is released. For now, do check us out... Prane and yours truly, well, we have a couple of new ideas coming up.

Stay tuned,

Gulheru