Frenemies Talk, Chapter VII feat. Nyronus · 7:00pm May 30th, 2015
Frenemies Talk, Chapter VII: The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone
With a slight delay this week, but we are here. Perhaps we are not enough to mend the pain over the lack of episode this Saturday, but we shall try our best as we discuss treasures, Gilda, Harmony and some other insignificant stuff when compared to the Idol of Boreas. Who's with me?
Oh...? Alright, hide the torches.
We are joined this time by the stylish Nyronus as we embark on a search for the Id—Friendship, yes Friendship...
Spoilers ahead. Also – lack of mention about the Idol. Maybe.
Sorry about your blog coming up late, Gilda, it won't happen again. Mostly because we probably won't see you again in S5.
Prane: Story time!
Once upon a time, a guy called Prane watched some ponies on the web. He watched the first two episodes, enjoying both the adventurous feel they had to them, as well as the interesting worldbuilding and vivid characters. He proclaimed dramatically, “Let us revel further in this joy, and turn our attention to another episode!” Then the dark times came, for Prane was not expecting humdrum conundrums regarding golden tickets or apples. “Woe is me!” he said, resting his forehead on the desk, defeated. But then, when all hope was lost, SHE came to his aid, her feathery fringe protruding from behind a cloud, like a long-awaited messiah…
Gilda was something of a message for me. She was a promise that the world of Equestria will continue to entertain me for as long as I stomach the occasional sappiness of its colorful inhabitants oozing with their friendship. Let’s be honest, it was not always easy, but thanks to her help (and Trixie’s just an episode later), I decided to get myself involved in that crazy ride which lasts to this day.
Now Gilda’s back, so let’s discuss her first. Did you like her around season one? Did this episode changed the views you had on her? Do you think she’ll be a good apostle for friendship in Griffonstone?
Nyronus: I’m not really sure HOW I felt about Gilda before this episode. The meme that she was Dash’s jealous Ex did amuse me even if I disliked seeing it in “serious” fanfics, but beyond that I never really cared much about her one way or another. Never read any of the major fanfics she was in, nor do I remember much striking fanart of her. She just kind of showed up and was rude. There was ONE piece of fanart that I really dug about her though, and that's Eurobeat’s “Fly.” I really dug how hurt, confused, and bitter he wrote Gilda as being, and in some ways this episode sort of expanded on that. I really dug the backstory they gave her and Dash. They showed there really was a bond there, and the fact that it decayed to such a state as we saw in Season 1 is a fascinating mystery and a real tragedy. I also found her constant denial that anything could be wrong in Griffonstone or with her own behavior kind of fascinating in retrospect. That, to me, speaks of someone internalizing a bad situation as inevitable to avoid being hurt by it. It’s not that Griffonstone is decaying or that Gilda is behaving in a poor manner - no. That’s just the way things are, and anyone who doesn’t realize that is just a dweeb. I mean, that has to be true. Because if it was otherwise, it would mean that something was terribly, terribly wrong.
As for her being St. Gilda the Apostle - I think she would be terrible at it and yet determined enough to work it to success and I think between that struggle, the unspoken story of how she went from shy fledgling to the cynical bully, and how she must have really felt about Dash turning on her? You could write a whole side series about Gilda and her life and that it would be amazing.
Well, what are you waiting around for? Chop-chop ponyfic community!
Gulheru: To play along with Prane:
And came forth the creature with body of lion and eagle, of claws and talons sharp and gaze brutish. And set she upon the village of Ponyville, forth bringing terror and misery. And there was wailing and gnashing of teeth.
… but Friendship came forth and everything was fine.
Yeah, I have never bought that “universal” solution, even if I am a fan of the show. When Gilda first came around, her “bully” nature was so obvious it was lacking any originality. And now? Well, she appears to have taken a turn for the better, but I am not certain if such a rapid change of heart is believable. Perhaps some people are utterly overjoyed by Gilda coming back (I am satisfied with her return, don’t get me wrong), yet, as often, the “Ultimate Problem Solver” of Friendship happens… too fast.You don’t change from remembering one good moment of your life. Sorry to everyone cheering, I’ll just slowly clap in the deepest shade in the room.
Kudos to Rebecca Dart for beautiful illustrations in the episode, and perfectly capturing a OMGWTFBBQ moment on the King's face.
Prane: This episode set off with the cutie map’s fateful decision to send Rainbow Dash and Pinkie Pie to the land of the griffons. On what basis, I ask? Let’s put aside “the writers wanted to pair them”, and talk about why those two characters were a good choice to fix the problem in Griffonstone. How would the adventure unfold if somepony else went there instead, like Rarity or Fluttershy? Would Gilda, or the griffons in general still learned their lesson? Perhaps under some character-induced circumstances the Idol of Boreas could be reclaimed?
Also, I think it’s reasonable to expect more expeditions like that in the future, much like the Friends Forever comic arcs are being handled. What two ponies would you like to see send to spread the magic of friendship across Equestria and beyond?
Myself, I’m in the mood for Rarity right now. But I’d like her to solve some problem which won’t be related to fashion. Preferably not with Applejack, because we’ve had enough of that already. Maybe with Twilight, for the Glorious Unicorn Master Race Magic Power? Yeah, that should do. If I could go beyond the characters which already have their thrones in Twilight’s castle, I would most certainly choose Trixie, to see how she and Sunset Shimmer are solving friendship problems the Breezies have. Or something along these lines, equally unlikely to happen.
A man can dream, though.
Nyronus: Well, to me, I saw the map as having picked Pinkie and Rainbow for two important reasons. The map is a force of Harmony, and my understanding of Harmony is that it is a sort of zen that moves the universe so that all creatures are happy. That’s me bringing in a lot of higher end ancient greek and western philosophy, but I feel it makes sense of the show. Harmony will punish the most egregious offenders like Tirek, Discord, and the Sirens, all of whom had willingly chosen to abandon harmony as a concept, but always nonlethally. Whereas characters like Luna or Sunset Shimmer who are acting out of a misguided haze of emotion, it largely leaves untouched besides pacifying them. So, Harmony and therefore the map want happiness and goodness to spread, so it picked Pinkie and Rainbow Dash to do that. Of course, the kicker for me, is that I think the map wanted Pinkie to go to heal Griffonstone, and it wanted Dash to go so that she could be healed. At the start of the episode she seems to have developed a sense of nascent racism towards the Griffons, having written them all off as being like Gilda due to feeling betrayed by Gilda. She also lacks the ability at the start of the episode to empathize with and forgive Gilda, which is bad for both of them sense I suspect there were unspoken reasons Gilda ended up the way she did, and she needed the help just as much as Dash did. Over the course of the show she forgives Gilda and walks away from the episode better off than when she went in. Of course, Gilda reconnected with Dash was a major spark that set her down the path of healing her homeland from the malaise it had fallen into, so that was crucial to Pinkie’s mission as well.
As for other pairings? Whew, asking me that giving what I just outlined could start a flame war of epic proportions, but basically any inter-character growth you think would help all parties would be something the map would orchestrate. Maybe Rarity and Pinkie could learn a bit from each other. Maybe Dash and Discord could do a mission where Dash learns to trust him more. Maybe Twilight and Trixie could smooth over old rough patches. Maybe the map could tell Dash and Twilight they were meant for each other shut up, Twidash OTP!
Erm.
Ehem. Anyway, yeah, if I’m on the mark, I really suspect this plot device could be used to spin out a lot of really interesting plots for the show.
(Editorial Note: The writer of this comment would like to clarify that he does ship many many valid pairings and Twidash is not actually his OTP but one of many he fancies. You are free to ship whomever you please unless it’s Appledash come at me bro can you step?)
Gulheru: Ha, it seems that we have a differing approach to Harmony then. I personally believe there to be the Rule of Balance in action in Ponyville and Equestria. The reason why we are faced with more and more difficult challenges is that the Universe is attempting to restore the natural balance of forces. The region is oversaturated with Friendship right now, so we can only expect things getting worse and worse, until finally our heroes shall meet their match and balance will have to be restored.
But, enough of philosophy, let us consider the possibility of the Map being sentient enough to assign quests for our heroes. Who would I like to see strutting around and spreading the Magic of Friendship?
Short answer – I have no idea.
Truly, whoever shall be sent, a lesson will be forged out of their actions, no matter how countering logic they sometimes are. Be it Rarity and Fluttershy, or Applejack and Fluttershy, or any other “Mane 6” combination (I dislike this terminology), we will be granted an important piece of character development and, naturally, a parable worthy enough of the show. As to what we can expect? Everything, my friends, absolutely everything, I think we can all agree. We’ve even had a walking disaster being shown his place in the community – the might of Harmony knows no bounds indeed. As such, I shall avoid using the powers of foresight and allow the show to try and impress me.
Ultimately, I am the advocate and supporter of the Rogues’ Gallery. As long as I shall be granted an intriguing, villainous character, I shall find my dark needs satisfied. And as to the ponies tackling the malefactor? I suppose it is void to further assure that they shall win anyway...
First Rarity and Tom, then Maud and Boulder, and now this. Equestrian rocks and stones may not break my bones, but they're still getting more action than me.
Nyronus: So, we seem to have an interesting situation here with the Griffons as a culture. Griffonstone was once apparently the light of Equestria. The nation that was founded upon a shared sense of pride, embodied in a golden idol. With the idol there the Griffons took strength from this sense of pride and it united and ennobled them. Then, the idol is stolen from them, and their entire civilization collapses from the morale shock and they are left as isolated and impoverished, with money seeming to be their only connection to each other besides contempt.
To me I wonder if this whole set-up isn’t a commentary on Nationalism. To quote Google: “Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation.” It seems to me that the Griffons of Griffonstone fit that bill. During their golden age, what ended up redeeming them was a shared sense of pride in their culture, i.e., nation, brought on by the coming of the Idol. Furthermore, great books were written about Griffonstone, the nation, and even when we get there a lot of Griffons are obsessed with the past, or, like Gilda, reject the idea that outsiders can understand them.
So, if the story of Griffonstone is one of Nationalism, does this make the episode a critique of it? A great deal is made about the pride the Griffons had in their nation and the idol as a physical manifestation of that pride. Take that pride away though - and the Griffons had nothing and fell apart. Then, later, Gilda is given a choice between that physical manifestation of the pride of her people and her friends - and she chose friendship. Furthermore, this friendship is hinted at as having the power to re-unify and heal her culture. To me it feels like the authors, whether they put this much thought into it or not, were making a statement about things like Nationalism - and that what they came down on was that things like pride, kingdoms, and idols are all fleeting. True Harmony, sappy as it may sound, comes from the personal connections we share with each other.
All told, I really dig that as an aesop.
So, what do you guys think about that idea? Is Griffonstone a critique of Nationalism as a foundational force for society? If it is, do you agree with the criticism? If it isn’t, what do you make of all of it? What was the show trying to say?
Gulheru: This episode, in my opinion, is another one that is forcing upon us this notion that “Friendship” is the ultimate bonding tool for groups, for villages, for entire societies even. And, as much as I value the idea and I sympathize with it, I am unsure whether a, somehow, compulsory approach is the best one.
True, Friendship can grant you a steady foundation for any community, but putting aside all other values, such as pride, ambition and patriotism in favor of one, binding force is an idealistic stretch. The Idol of Boreas was not only a physical manifestation of pride, it was something more than that. It was an embodiment of the griffon spirit. An icon of their society. It was more than just about the feeling of superiority and self-worth, it was a symbol of the connection between all the griffons. Based on pride, based on greed, to some extent, of course, but valuable nonetheless.
Yet, I would not find the critique of Nationalism here. The episode simply mirrors the Crystal Empire one in a great deal, trying to teach us that every other idea that brings us together can be somehow enhanced (although I would even risk the word “substituted”) by Friendship. As the show focuses on this idea, I won’t criticize it, but I will remain confident that there are alternatives to reach solidarity and the feeling of community, other than our overpowered Friendship.
Prane: I wouldn’t go as far as to call Griffonstone a convoluted take on nationalism, at least not in form of an intended metaphor thoughtfully weaved into the show by its writers. It’s a complex doctrine from the field of the so-called politics (yuck, that word alone makes me nauseous!), and applying it to a fantastical race of flying beak-lions doesn’t feel right to me. That said, the griffons have certainly lost their pride and overall dignity along with the Idol of Boreas. Luckily, they’re now on their way of getting their national identity back, likely reshaping it anew in the process.
I think the lesson to be learned from this episode is as follows: do not forge your empire around a single object or a person, but on timeless, transcendent values instead. Surprisingly, this can be applied to our everyday endeavors. I have seen instances in which a group was held together only thanks to the efforts of its leader, but the said leader’s actions were focused on gathering people around him rather than the idea he represented, so once a scar appeared on his face, or he was gone entirely, the group fell apart. I’d venture a guess that if the griffon kings had chosen something immaterial to represent their nation, after the Arimaspi stole the Idol they would be like, “no biggie, we’ll just make another.”
The ponies have already learned that lesson, and although removing the Princesses from the equation would be a massive blow to their identity, I want to believe Equestria wouldn’t crumble like Griffonstone did. As Henri Ducard taught us, if you devote yourself to an idea, you become a legend. And unlike golden idols, intangible things like dreams, thoughts, and legends can go on and on.
Everything's a photo op if you're Pinkie Pie!
Gulheru: So… there went the works about Griffin Kingdoms that the fandom was creating for years. Naturally, they are not declared void, but we can expect further pieces of fiction to implement Griffonstone, its location, its looks, the climate and so on.
But, as much as this episode changed the “official” picture, I think it provides us with a lot of potential for further storytelling. I would not mind focusing on the Idol of Boreas. Perhaps there is a chance for an expedition to recover it from the Abysmal Abyss, now that we know it’s not but a legend. If only we would have a character brave and daring enough to return it to the griffons… I presume the Idol would be worth a lot to their community. Just think about the amount of bits they could pay for it! Perhaps they could even crown the finder a king! But I don’t know if there is anypony that would just go forth and “do” what needs to be done.
Oh! Of course, silly me. Let me just call up Dr. Caballeron.
In the meantime, tell me what kind of inspiration did you find in this, world-building, episode?
Prane: I am one of those lucky ones who have not dwelled too much into the Griffin Kingdom in their writing, but once the episode lore was presented I could feel the pain (as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced). But hey, at least they’re keeping to the G-rule for the griffon names, which is nice!
Personally I don’t like the idea of recovering the Idol, which to me smelled too much of a Crystal Heart, both being the objects of utmost importance for their respective societies. If something is lost, and then found for the sake of the plot, then it’s okay. But once it gets un-lost through the actions of the protagonists, and amidst the climax it gets lost again, then it should remain so. Speaking of which, that entire scene with Gilda hesitating was a decent reference to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, but I think it could have been done better. It could definitely use some dramatic, silent exchange of stares between Rainbow and Gilda to add to the emotional impact which turned out rather weak.
One day, Griffonstone will be a fine place to live, and a righteous heart of the Griffin Kingdom, with a virtuous king uniting his people under his banner. But it won’t be restored to its former glory in a day, and it won’t get fixed by Gilda alone. Most importantly, I don’t believe it can be done with friendship and griffon scones as the show wants us to believe. There’s some serious work to be done in there, and plenty of space for multiple headcanons to fit in. So chill out, everyone. The show haven’t ruined your work, and your wonderful stories have not turned into ash and dust. Try to make use of what we’ve learned in the episode, and if it contradicts your ideas, feel free to ignore it.
Do not measure the worth of your ideas by how well they fit the show, but by how well they expand the established universe through tales infinitely more complex and engaging than what the writers are able to serve us.
Nyronus: I’m not as big on setting and worldbuilding as I used to be. Between my Azathothian attempts at a dark fantasy series, running Tabletop RPGs, being introduced to pony it’s become apparent to me that the best stories and the best moments from stories come from their characters. Picking apart Gilda’s psychology and how that plays out into the past and the future offers more plot-hooks for me than anything about the setting, although the demon-goat thing scared the ever loving shit out of me. The stuff about the crippling poverty in Griffonstone could be used as a backdrop or plothook for the more character-driven stuff I prefer, but only as such. I was fairly amused by the Eastern-European/Old Russian vibe the Griffons have because that was a motif I went to for them intuitively, and it tickled me to learn afterward that Griffons were said by the Greeks to live in Scythia, now modern day Ukraine/Romania/Russia.
Although, following up a bit on Gulheru’s idea a bit, playing interners/hirelings on an expedition by Daring Do to retrieve that lost idol sounds like an amazing one-shot for a tabletop roleplaying game. Get to it Pony Gamemasters!
And that's it for this time. Many thanks to Nyronus for his contribution. We shall catch you next time, as I have a feeling we are in for a treat. In the meantime, motivate Prane to continue his latest fic – Arcane Realms. And, naturally, you can check out my humble efforts at writing here.
See you soon,
Gulheru
In my opinion, the Griffon scones can help Griffonstone. By promoting small business and uniting the griffons, Gilda could start a trade guild/monopoly based on friendship, uniting them to work as one and forming a semi-democracy.
Another random headcanon: when Griffons like Gustave Le Grand and the athletes get skilled enough, they abandon Griffonstone, dooming it for a lack of useful skills.
3110856
Sounds plausible when it comes to griffons leaving the place, but I would not put so much hope into scones. Of course, the show might make them a pivotal point of change in Griffonstone, but... let us be honest, the logic behind it is nonexistent.
3111306 I agree that mere scones could not revolutionize industry in a day, but it would teach all the griffons about the meaning of working together. Besides, this show isn't very logical, particularly in regard to economics.