[interview] The Chatoyaverse · 6:49am Jul 1st, 2012
Let's face it. I will never be in the Pony Fiction Vault. Nothing I have created will ever go there, and I will never be on the front page of Equestria Daily. RBDash47 will never interview me, and nothing I do will ever be considered part of Pony Celebrity. But, you know, I can pretend. After all, isn't that what we do here, pretend?
Pretend along with me, just for fun, and enter a strange parallel universe where the Conversion Bureau wasn't the red-headed bastard stepchild of pony fiction. A world where more than a half a million words of sincere effort would not be spit upon by trolls, but would be revered by vast numbers of ordinary fans, rather than just a small cadre of the superintelligent. In short... Bizarro World.
Join me now for my dream interview about the induction of all of my work into the Pony Fiction Vault, one day in Alternate Universe Bizarro Land....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEVER posted to the Vault on 1/34/3012.
Today's Bizarro Vault entry falls into the "Mythos Building" category, providing a vast and rich exploration of an entire sub-genre (Season 2 canon be damned). Chatoyance's numerous works span a wide range of tones, moods, and complex situations.
[Adventure, Slice-of-Life, Comedy, Romance, Alternate Universe] • 620,667 + words
The Chatoyaverse explores virtually every aspect of the Conversion Bureau Mythos.
Fanfiction.net • Equestria Daily
Where do you live?
Washington
What kind of work do you do? (i.e. are you a student, do you have a career/day job, etc)
I am a co-wife to three spouses, a kind of house-mother if you will. A homemaker. I also do art, write, and have many hobbies.
How did you discover My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic? When did you realize you were a fan of the show?
Sometime in the September of 2011, I came across a reference to the concept of MLP:FIM on a games site, probably Kotaku. It was linked to the notion of 'The New Sincerity', which sounded pleasant, and from that I read about the origins of Pony Fandom. I was fascinated by the idea that in the wretched bowels of 4-chan, something pure and good and nice and kind could grow, spread like a virus and take over all the evil sons-of-bitches and wash their souls less filthy. Goodness on the internet? It was a miracle! Love and Tolerate said un-ironically? Within a week I had devoured everything I could and began collecting and watching episodes. In a trice I was intimate with Equestria Daily, and that was when I found the thing that sparked my writing: an article about The Conversion Bureau. The story shown was The Conversion Bureau: Change of Life by Hurricane Puncher. That moment changed my life.
Do you have a favorite episode?
Without question my favorite episode is Winter Wrap-Up. I consider it to be the consummate MLP:FIM episode. It embodies everything I think is wondrous, beautiful, and magical about the series. You have what I think is the flat out best song in the entire series (with Smile, Smile Smile taking a close second). You have a brilliant description of a cosmos with alien physical laws, and gain an understanding of what those laws are, and how the native species interacts with them. In Winter Wrap-Up we find out these are not just sapient ponies, they are for all intents faery-kind, working together to control and manipulate Nature Itself. This is the establishment of what the three breeds are for, and why they exist. Here is where we find out that the ponies must physically nurture the universe itself in order to live. Here we discover through Twilight Sparkle's eyes for the first time what Equestria is about, and what it means to live there, to be a pony. Above all else, it underscores the fact that Equestria is about cooperation and mutuality.
Who is your favorite character based purely on the canon of the show itself? Would your answer change if you considered the fandom in its entirety (i.e. art, fanfiction, memes, etc)?
Canon: Pinkie Pie. I have always identified her as the heart and soul of her community. She is a character who truly, genuinely loves others with her entire being. She is willing to be silly, even ridiculous, to entertain others. She has within her all the Harmonic Elements, and embodies every last one. She is laughter, of course, but she is also Loyal, often more so that Rainbow Dash, she is Generous - vastly more so that Rarity, she is Kind - she is the equal of Fluttershy, and perhaps moreso, she is utterly Honest - never break a Pinkie Promise, and she is the most magic pony on the show - even reality itself, the fourth wall, is a toy to her. Pinkie Pie is everything, and yet she is also herself, and that self is utter love. Pure, total love. She is everything I personally Idealize. I only wish I could embody a tenth of what Pinkie Pie represents.
Fanon: Derpy Ditsy-Doo Hooves. Derpy is charming, utterly lovable, tender, kind, and mentally and physically disabled. And that is the absolute best thing she could be. Derpy is for me, an Inclusion Character. Derpy basically says: You Are Welcome Here. I remember the actress and comedian Whoopi Goldberg talking about Star Trek. She liked the fact that there were black folks on the show, as regulars. That meant a lot to her. I know that Derpy does the same for people with disabilities. One of my spouses, for example, adores Derpy. She's suffered T.I.A.'s - mini strokes - that have reduced her memory and concentration in profound ways. She identifies with Derpy, and loves the character. It broke her heart when the bastards changed Derpy's one speaking appearance. Hearing Derpy speak in a clearly disabled manner instantly told her she could Belong in the pony fandom and the Pony Universe. Fortunately, the original survives on my hard drive for her.
How did you come up with your handle/penname?
'Chatoyance' means many-hued and changing colors, and in Jewelry means stones, like Cat's Eye, that reflect a brilliant streak of light. I consider myself a diverse person, with many interests and areas of expertise, and my writing and other art expresses many moods and many styles. Further, there is no art that is not based on what has come before, so if I ever achieve anything, it can only be because I am reflecting the streak of brilliance from someone else, who has inspired me. This is the reasoning behind my handle.
Have you written in other capacities (other fandoms, professionally, etc)? When did you first start writing?
I've done several graphic novels, co-authored two other novels, written some many short stories scattered about, and written a great number of cartoons. My first graphic novel was done when I was eleven. But I never really got the serious writing bug - writing stories as a primary activity - until joining FimFiction.net. I read everything that existed at the time that was Conversion Bureau, and I was utterly enraptured by the concept. I could see endless potential there to plumb the complexities of the human spirit within the Bureau mythos. I was utterly excited by it. So I joined FimFiction and wrote my first story. Then another and another, then full novels, and more novels, and more. I have written more words on FimFiction than likely anywhere else in my life.
I will say this, though. Writing is incredibly, vastly easier than doing graphic novels. Writing and illustrating is a great deal of labor, for me, merely writing is like a vacation. I don't have to do a painting for every two sentences. I LOVE writing, compared to doing cartoon work. It's relaxing.
What do you like to do when you're not writing?
Video and Computer games, of course - I used to work in the industry, and I have never lost my love for the artform. I also paint and sculpt miniatures, draw and paint, invent tabletop and board games, study various subjects according to my latest fascinations, play housewife X3, read, enjoy all manner of media, and (try) to keep up with all of my friends. Oh, I also collect toys and videogame memorabilia. I used to do animation, but not any more. Then again, I used to do a lot of things, from leatherwork to custom stuffed animals. I guess you could say I keep busy.
Who is your favorite author (published or fanfiction)? Do you have a favorite story or novel?
I do not have a favorite author, as in top of the list favorite. I have many favorites and influences. Robert Heinlein, Arthur Clarke, Issac Asimov, Robert Sheckley, Zenna Henderson, Ray Bradbury (and many, many more)... all the Golden Age and Silver Age science fiction authors are my idols. I literally grew up inside books. My family moved every three to six months, and I lived a highly isolated life. I would find one friend of like mind and then would have to leave, over and over, until my last two years of high school. I lived inside books. Libraries were my safe houses, my only stability. My ideas of the world, of what should be and could be all derive purely from a life spent within the worlds created by such great authors.
On FimFiction I have many favorite authors that consistently astonish and amaze me. The writers of the Conversion Bureau mythos are brilliant people - Midnight Shadow, Krass McWriter, Windchaser, Defoloce, Fullmetal Pony, Dafaddah, BronyOfSteel, TalonMach5 and Silvertie... and on and on. Beyond the Bureau mythos I have been astonished at the sheer wonder of writers like shortskirtsandexplosions, Applejinx, Gabriel LaVedier, Kwakerjak, BillyColt, Andrew Joshua Talon, SleeplessBrony, Cold in Gardez, butterscotchsundae, Donny's Boy, and so many more. These are my heroes, they inspire and teach me, just as the old Golden Age Authors once did.
Stephen King believes that every author has an "ideal reader" - the one person who they write for, the one person whose reactions they care about. Do you have one, and if so, who is it?
My Ideal Reader is highly intelligent and highly educated. They are Idealistic and value kindness and friendship above all else. They are culturally literate and know a great variety of things from all manner of media. They are the sort of person who sees the vast and complex diversity of gender, race and sexuality as a big happy banquet of fun. They naturally treat all people as equals. They appreciate Reason and reject arbitrary belief, yet are open to all possibility, even the most bizarre. They are creative, clever, whimsical, and playful. They are childlike, without being child-ish. They strive always to be a better, nicer, more capable person with humor at life and at themselves.
My Ideal Reader, to whom I write, is strange, whimsical, smart, aware, compassionate, creative, passionate. They will not abide hate in any form. They expect the best, but treat failure with patience and understanding. Above all else... they are nice. A nice person who is nice to others.
Do you have any tips for aspiring writers, or writers who are struggling with their own stories?
Just write. No excuses. I know that it's scary, I know that there is the chance that someone might make mean comments. But you are better than that, and you will get better still if you just write. Nothing is worse than not trying at all. That way lies only regret and a loss of self worth. Write, tell your story, say what is in your heart and mind. Just do it. Overthinking is for chumps. Hit the keys, write and write and then publish. Do it. I don't even know you, and I believe in you, because I believe in the power of the human imagination. It does not matter one bit how 'good' you think you are, or aren't compared to others - there will always be someone better, and always be someone worse no matter what. You will always be somewhere in the middle. Just write. Get going. No hesitation, no fear, just joy. Write, just write.
When you are writing, during that moment only, suspend your disbelief - in that moment truly believe that you are the best writer that ever lived. Imagine the joy and laughter and tears and terror on the countless faces of your endless admirers. Pretend that every word is golden, and that You Can Do No Wrong. That you are the Universe's Gift to all of humankind.
Then, when you have finished your story, edit the hell out of it. Go over it and correct all the grammar, the spelling, the punctuation. Then do it again. If you can, read your story out loud to a spouse or best friend, so that you can catch even more errors. But DON'T RE-WRITE anything unless there is NO other option. If you do so, you will regret it, because there is passion within an initial text that can never be regained. Correct, but don't lose the passion you had while writing it initially.
Above all else, write honestly. Don't try to 'be' somebody in your writing, don't try to put on airs. Write honestly and intimately from your heart. Let your inner truth speak. Just... write.
What is your typical writing process? (Do you work through multiple drafts, do you have any prereaders/editors, etc?)
Everything I do, artistically, in any medium, is always intuitive. For me, stories tell themselves. I don't think, I don't plan, I don't plot. I may come up with a one sentence beginning notion and a one sentence concept of the end. But that is rare. Mostly I just start writing. The first sentence is the crystal around which the rest of the story solidifies.
In the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy, there was the Infinite Perspective Vortex, that recreated a working model of the universe from a single piece of fairy-cake. It extrapolated. Cake implies grain and butter and milk and eggs. These things imply ground and planets and sunshine and stars, which imply galaxies and the universe as a whole. That is how I write. Each thing demands the existence of other things in order to make sense, gradually the whole world, complete and self-consistent must result. I have a terrible memory, I always have, so if it were not for this extrapolation ability I would never be able to keep anything straight.
When I write, there is a daydream that goes on in my mind, and it is a simulation that runs. I know the characters, so I know what they will do and how they will react. I know the world, and so what is possible is inevitable. The simulation plays out as it will, the characters making their decisions and choices while I float and watch. As the story unfolds for me, I type it out, trying to keep up. At the end, it makes sense and I feel grateful and exhausted. This way, the stories literally write themselves. I try to not get in their way.
I never know how a story will turn out, or where it will go. As I write new chapters, I am a reader just like anyone. I can't wait to see what happens next, because I do not have a loving clue. Each chapter, each line is as much a mystery to me as it would be to anyone reading after the fact. For me, the process of writing is sitting down and letting a story be told to me, while I try to capture the essence of it as it plays out as it will, vividly, like a movie in my mind.
It's a scary way to write - each new work feels like a roller coaster in a tornado. I cling on, unsure that the story will work out, that it will make sense, that anything will work, but somehow it does. It is always a wild ride, but also an exhausting one. But when a story jumps on my back, I have no choice but to write it. It will nag me until I obey.
What inspired you to create your (many different) Chatoyaverses?
Well, I've created too many universes to go into all of them. Tryslmaistan, Pastel, Krawlni, Ktlikitkak... so I will stick with my work on FimFiction doing Bureau stories. The initial seed for my work was the works of the other, original authors. Mostly Midnight, Krass, Hurricane and such. I didn't even read Blaze's seminal work until I came across Midnight's guide to the TCB universe. When I had devoured all that these founders had written, the whole set about organizing itself inside my head. I am driven to make sense of science fiction and fantasy universes, to make them self-consistent, rational, complete. I want something fictional I like to feel real to me.
So, when I did my first story, The Big Respawn, the beginning of a complete, self-consistent vision of the Bureau universe was just starting to crystallize for me. I knew I wanted to make a Big Tent, a codified, clarified vision that could include the stories by all the other writers, or at least most of them, within it. My goal has always been to create a Mythos - like the Cthulhu Mythos that Lovecraft spawned. That mythos still grows through the works of more and more authors to this day. That is what I want for the Conversion Bureau.
When I felt that I had mostly achieved this, at the One Year Anniversary of the Conversion Bureau, that is when I decided to demonstrate the true potential of the Bureau concept through alternate universe variation. That's why I did Brave New Universe. I wanted to say 'Hey! We have a great Prime universe, but the idea here is so great, so grand, take a look! There can me many more Bureau universes. The concept transcends all!' And I really believe that. The Bureau concept is the perfect stage on which the human mind and heart can be explored. It is an ideal space in which to examine Identity, Self, Free-Will, and the human capacity for adaptation.
Did you run into any tough spots or challenges when writing all of your many works?
I had one. At the end of The Taste Of Grass, I was exhausted. Just completely wasted. I was pumping out a 3500 word chapter almost every day for a month and... I was just exhausted. So I ended the story, but I knew it needed an epilogue. It needed dessert, after the meal. I just didn't have it in me to write one more bloody word. Along comes Midnight Shadow and presents me with the perfect, perfect epilogue. Saved my bacon, he did. I just slapped that baby in there, with full credits to him and the story was golden.
Trust in your good writing friends.
When you set out to write your many, many stories, did you have any specific messages or themes in mind?
I wanted to embody the core feeling of the first season of MLP:FIM, which I remain convinced is the best. That core is this: that friendship, compassion and cooperation are the greatest good, and that working together, ponies can do anything. To put it more succinctly, love literally rules. In all of my stories, I strive to have at the center the basic concept that the only truth is being good to each other, all else is vanity. It was not a stretch to do this, it is also what I value in real life. It is what drew me to MLP:FIM in the first place. If I have a religion, it is Friendship. That is always my theme. If characters suffer, it is because they chose anger or greed over friendship and compassion and cooperation. If they succeed, it is because they embodied these virtues.
Where can readers drop you a line?
My email is Uni@Otakuworld, and I can be reached on FimFiction.net as well. I have a Deviant Art account, and of course there is my personal portal website, Jenniverse.com
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
Be weird. Be yourself, whatever that means. Write your stories after your own dreams. Make your life in your own image. A true artist makes everything their art, especially their own life. Be you, your way.
And I encourage you to express your unique creativity. But above all else, I encourage you to embody those things you love. If you love magical ponies... try to be a pony, deep inside. Be a human-shaped pony - or anything else that captures your heart. Become - as best you can - your ideals, and what you write will be authentic. And for what it is worth, I believe in you.
Well... This was an unexpected occurrence.
So, like, who came up with the questions?
(Ohgodthey'llfindme)
204317
The questions are the standard interview form that RBDash47 uses for his Pony Fiction Vault. You can find other, real interviews on the front page of FimFiction.net, right here. That is what gave me the idea. Because it will never be me, up there.
204319
*shrugs*
Wont be me either. Less F&J:E or my bed time stories take off for no reason.
Wow graphic novels. I suppose you managed to publish them too? That's a great deal of writing experience there, especially in the real world.
And I think this interview is more than exciting for me .
Thank you!
now on to good book part 2!
204319 Yeah, your field isn't one tends to like that much for somereason.
I actually enjoyed it, and kinda wish it was a real interview! If nothing else, you're one of the more unique authors on here, you have a loyal and decently sized following, and you are more or less a "brand name" which is something not many can say, I think. "It's a Chatoyance story" communicates a lot in a brief sentence, at least to me.
I was interested in how you said that you never re-write anything unless absolutely necessary. I've always been told that you go back and rewrite as well as go back and edit and truncate and clean up and whatever... but you do raise a point-- it is hard to recapture the spirit of something the second time. (Having had to rewrite a song 9 times because I kept losing the lyrics because I'm stupid, I can attest how true this is!) I'll have to keep that in mind when this novel wraps up. Editing, outside of writing, like something that happens afterward and not while you're sitting there writing and go back and alter something or change it during that session-- that's so weird to me. (Except for like spelling and grammar. I mean, in depth editing.)
Well, that was enlightening. I especially smiled during the description of Pinkie. I feel a lot more justified in having her create Equestria in one of my storylines. (Long story. Time shenanigans are involved.) In any case, it is a damn shame that your medium of choice happens to be the spittoon of bronydom. You're still a fantastic author, not that you need me to tell you that. No te bastardes carborundorum.
Dear long lost sibbling,
A shout-out! (Does happy dance in the gazebo as dogs look on perplexed. Then one got tired.)
i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t510/lmclecm/5182abb6.jpg
We have so much in common, especially in terms of personal philosophy. I suspect being "raised by science fiction's gold and silver age authors" is a big part of that. It broadened our persective of who we can love to include even the alien. My personal definition of "evil" is exclusion, the sentiment that anyone different as being "other". And as a science nerd and SF fan in a very small town, that often meant me.
Your desire to create a self-consistent narrative out of the TCB universe is also one I share. I remember the 'A-ha!' reaction I had when I read "Code Majeste" as being exactly that, and also how it significantly expanded the complexity of Celestia's character and added a truly poignant desperation to her motivations.
That's only one example out of many - I very much concure with 204481, you have established a brand in the best possible sense of the word: a quality of story and writing few other authors on FIMFiction can match.
Thanks for doing this interview (you deserve an "official" one ASAP), but also thanks for sharing.
Never re-write anything? I think I'm going to take that one to heart.
I have had that feeling with very few of my creative projects, that my work is establishing itself, and I am just along for the ride. Perhaps it is merely a matter of perspective, but I struggle with the logistics of the work.
204560
I like that idea.
For what it's worth, both my wife and I are big fans of your stories, Chatoyance, especially Taste of Grass.
-Cv
I guess I'm a different writer. Never re-write anything? There have been too many times I've written something. Looked at it and gone. "No, this isn't what I want" and scraped the entire thing only to start over. Eventually I find the 'flow' I'm looking for and can just go with it.
Chatoyance, I like your style! Keep writing, your stuff has got me trying my hand (hoof?) at writing a story, and I'm not normally a creative person to begin with (helluva lot better with numbers and computer networks).
Chatoyance, why do you think your work will never be featured? Is it because you only write Conversion Bureau fics, or because of your detractors vitriol? I honestly consider your work to be among the best in our genre, my reservations regarding how you portray humanity not withstanding. Has Equestria Daily flat out told you, "Your stories will never be approved?", or the Pony Fiction Vault said "Your work is not worthwhile." Technically your writing is superb, your characters are engaging, your plots interesting, and the content even if it gets under your skin makes you think. I say ignore the neigh-sayers and continue, regardless of what others say I'll continue reading what you write.
After reading this and seval of your works, I have come to think that you represent some of the best that this world has to offer. Your writing has made me expect more of myself. I have enjoyed all of your works that I read, especially "Taste of Grass", because they each have an incredible depth of detail and character in them.
Keep on rockin', my friend.
It's your work that convinced me to take up my metaphorical quill again after not having written anything of substance in almost a decade. So don't feel like you're somehow less of an author for not getting an interview. You and your work is what matters to those that really care.
First I'd like to say, I'm not here to belittle your writing, or the quality of your work. From what I've seen you seem to put forth the effort to present a clean and polished product. You do try to defend the overall premise of this fandom universe in an intelligent and though out manner, so I'll give you credit for that.
The thing is, you try so hard to justify Celestia's actions in this universe, and as said before, you admitedly do so in a rather thought out fashion. But the problem has, and will always be that the premise you so love equates to ponies are better than humans, therefore for the humans to be saved they must become ponies. You never seem to think of the possibility of ponies helping humanity become better - that notion is entirely thrown out it seems. For whatever reason, you enjoy the notion of conversion (even forced at times) to the notion of uplifting humanity in your work.
Also, I find the part of your ideal reader rather curious:
"My Ideal Reader is highly intelligent and highly educated. They are Idealistic and value kindness and friendship above all else. They are culturally literate and know a great variety of things from all manner of media. They are the sort of person who sees the vast and complex diversity of gender, race and sexuality as a big happy banquet of fun. They naturally treat all people as equals. They appreciate Reason and reject arbitrary belief, yet are open to all possibility, even the most bizarre. They are creative, clever, whimsical, and playful. They are childlike, without being child-ish. They strive always to be a better, nicer, more capable person with humor at life and at themselves.
My Ideal Reader, to whom I write, is strange, whimsical, smart, aware, compassionate, creative, passionate. They will not abide hate in any form. They expect the best, but treat failure with patience and understanding. Above all else... they are nice. A nice person who is nice to others."
You say that your ideal reader sees gender, race, and sexuality, "as a big happy banquet of fun," and that they are, "open to all possibility, even the most bizarre." Yet you, and many of your most vociferous readers and defenders, continue to accept the same over all premise as I described above. Aside from a couple of stories you've published on fimfiction, where is the variety in your writing outside of you exploring and justifying the different aspects of the end of humanity? In at least one of your stories you have a character even admit that humanity would have never accepted the truth, and that how things happened was necessary. It seems you speak of diversity of ideas, yet reject the notion as well when it comes to differing opinions on conversion. And in turn, it seems you ask more of your readers than you are willing to commit to yourself.
Chatoyance, I'm not saying this out of spite but rather out of genuine curiosity: why don't you try to step outside of the Conversion Bureau box you seem so adamant on writing in. I would be interested to see if you could write a story that uplifts humanity, whether based on the real world or some other, simply to see how that would turn out.
215703 "Chatoyance, I'm not saying this out of spite but rather out of genuine curiosity: why don't you try to step outside of the Conversion Bureau box you seem so adamant on writing in. I would be interested to see if you could write a story that uplifts humanity, whether based on the real world or some other, simply to see how that would turn out."
I already have.
In fact, it is ALL I ever do. I can prove it.
I've done three massive graphic novels about just that, and one science fiction novel likewise. The Ishtar Crisis features an underdog human managing to thwart the large corporations that rule the solar system and through brilliance and human determination succeed in terraforming Venus where others have failed, all set within a future where Mankind has begun to settle the solar system.
In Unicorn Jelly, I have a lost portion of humanity trapped in a utterly, mind bogglingly alien cosmos with truly alien physical laws, succeeding in not only saving all sapient life in their new home, but overcoming 50,000 years of hardship to end up universe-hopping gods, all due to the intrinsic worth of human cooperation and the value of the smallest of human lives. The essential message of Unicorn Jelly is that the most insignificant people can sometimes be the most important to history.
In my remaining Tryslmaistan / Pastel stories, I further explore the importance of individual human beings on the outcome of events greater than themselves, arguing that the human heart and human love are the most powerful forces in the multiverse.
I have been just as massively attacked for my ardently pro-humanity stance with those works, as I have been attacked for my Conversion Bureau stories.
I write Conversion Bureau stories to explore the human mind. Those who fail to grasp that my ponies are actually windows into humanity are simply blind to the obvious. To say I disparage humanity because I write ponies as better is exactly equivalent to saying that Gene Roddenberry was misanthropic because Vulcans are stronger, smarter, and more intelligent than humans in every way. No, Vulcans are just a window into one facet of the human experience, just like Klingons, Ferengi, or Bab 5's Minbari, or Alien Nation's Tenctonese.
All stories about aliens - be they space aliens or elves and fairies, are really just stories about humans. We glue on wings or pointy ears - or hooves and tails - but the only thing any writer can write is human beings. Because that is all we can know.
Those who don't 'get' that, who don't comprehend that the best way to show the true human heart is to repackage it in the illusion of being 'alien' are either just plain intellectually insufficient, or they have bought into a crazy fool bunch of hogwash made up by those who want to cause trouble, or they are just plain using feigned ignorance to troll.
You want to know what every last one of my Conversion Bureau stories is about? They're not about humans being turned into ponies. They're about what it would be like if human beings could suddenly be made to act like their own ideals. What would it be like, if three ounces of magic potion could make you, or any other human, live up to all of those high and mighty words, and all of those sweet and compelling beliefs that people like to imagine about the best of Man?
Spock was never a Vulcan, he was Roddenberry's description of a human being driven by logic instead of passion. Gene clearly stated this, more than once. Because that is all any character can ever be. Just a human in fancy dress.
My Equestrians are just humans - the only difference is that they have magically been made to live up to the Ideals most religions claim are 'Good' and 'Right'. That's all. The hooves and manes and magic and everything are just background. They are Vulcan and Minbar and Middle Earth.
All of my stories are about humans, and the value of what is best in the human heart. Nobody can write true aliens, because we don't know any, and we have no idea how they would be.
That is why my detractors are such silly, pathetic folk - I am using the oldest, most time-honored means to show the glory and triumph of the human soul - through the invention of a 'false other', and I am called a misanthrope for it, and condemned!
The problem isn't what I write - I always write about the triumphant spirit of Man - the problem is that most young people today have no concept of classical literature, and thus no comprehension of their modern media. This is a generation that thinks that TV Tropes is somehow educational, rather than a masturbatory bastardization of real understanding and a mockery of a decent education.
EVERY story I write uplifts humanity. EVERY single ONE. I just dress my Ideal Humans in hooves, because that is the style now. It used to be pointy ears, and before that, halos and wings.
Don't let yourself be caught up in the ignorant foolishness that has sprung up around my work. If you think about what I have just written, it is pretty obvious, isn't it? I write human beings, become the Human Ideal, and I dress them in hooves, because this is a pony fiction site.
You'd have to be either dim, or just blinded by mindless hate to fail to grasp such an obvious thing. It's literally one of the oldest tricks in literature.
215748
Forgive me if this message seems long or rambling. I think (and take this with a grain of salt) that many people fail to see that aspect of your work because of the nature of the universe you chose to try to portray that message.
The biggest problem people often have with the TCB universe is the personality altering aspects of the serum itself. It's hard to see a message of "show the glory and triumph of the human soul" past the curtain of "being made to live up to their own ideals". Humanity achieving peace through alien magic isn't really a human achievement, especially when there's an element of force there. The same way as when someone wins the lottery, no one says that their newfound fortunes were earned. There's no journey, no self-discovery, no triumph. There's just this magical solution to all our problems and all you have to do is give up a part of what makes you, you. Maybe not a good part, but a part nonetheless. To put it another way... for many of us, the theme feels like one of surrender, rather than triumph. Like we're just... giving up trying to be a "better us" and letting someone else solve all our problems for us, regardless of the cost.
Now, don't get me wrong, I actually really enjoy your writing style. You're a far more talented writer than I'll ever be, and you're clearly well educated and intelligent. You've developed this in-depth, vibrant universe that motivates people to read your works and try to write their own. I admire your candor, eloquence, and perseverance in the face of criticism.
However, you do have a bit of a tendency to hastily dismiss the critics of the message of your work, often by disparaging their education, experience, or knowledge. Regardless of how politely they try to put their concerns into words. And I understand that many of them don't, but I don't see that as a reason to call them all silly, pathetic, or uneducated. Rather, I see that as an opportunity for you to participate in an organic, open, civil discussion about human nature and history. Perhaps even widen other peoples' horizons as well as your own.
Dismissing all critics is one of the worst mistakes a writer (or any person, really) can make, because if that many people are so radically misinterpreting the message of your stories... in fact, many of the same people who highly admire the works of those authors you cite as inspiration... perhaps (and I mean this in the best, most respectful way possible) you're not getting the message across as clearly as you think. Perhaps not all of the fault lies in the reader, and some lies in the medium via which the message was delivered.
As I mentioned before, part of the reason people fail to grasp that message are the mind-altering properties of the serum. Another is the often nonchalant dismissal of the thousands of years of culture and positive scientific progress many of us are proud of. The loss of all of this is rarely depicted, and when it is, it is depicted as a victory in and of itself, rather than the tragic cost of a greater victory. We'd all be sad to see the masterpieces go. The museums and all their art and culture. The LHC. The Statue of Liberty. The Hubble Telescope. The Great Wall. The great literary works of the present and the past. Thousands of years of thousands of histories of thousands of cultures... just gone. Perhaps a worthwhile price for world peace and prosperity... but a hefty one, nonetheless. Of course, that's not even the whole of it. Not by a long shot.
And, after all, Roddenberry didn't fit all of the positive ideals of humanity into only one of his "alien" races. Tolkien didn't portray the elves as infallible, perfect angels (even their queen was susceptible to the temptation of the ring). Heinlein's works espoused the importance of liberty and self-reliance more than his distaste for general society's dislike for non-conformist thought. The key throughout all of these different themes (and one of the key aspects to the "false other" in many of its most famous uses through literature) was the inclusion of acknowledged, true faults in the "false other". The Vulcans' total lack of emotion was as much as a fault as their scientific minds and rational thought were benefits. And Roddenberry certainly never portrayed humanity in its current form as irredeemable without transforming into Klingons. Rather, he glorified our past and potential future triumphs. There is nothing human about perfection... and perfection seems to be what your version of ponies often embodies. I think this is a part of the disconnect between the message some people are getting and the one you're trying to portray.
Again, I want to reiterate that I have a massive amount of respect for you as a writer. I've only recently begun developing my own creative writing talents (or lack thereof), my own background being in behavioral economics, which involves a lot of technical writing, rather than creative. I use stories like yours as a guide on how to write well.
Please do not take any of the above comment in a negative light... I'd be sad if you did. It's meant to be a constructive elucidation of some of the views of your critics, as well as a compliment on the thought-provoking nature of your work.
Congratulations on your prolificity, and thank you for reading this with an open mind in the spirit of mutually beneficial discussion.
With much respect,
Invictus
215748
So, somewhat off topic, I feel I need to defend those of my age that have "no grasp of classical literature." I am currently fifteen years old, I have read books from the old days of Greece and from the Victorian age, and rather thoughroughly enjoyed some of them. In addition, I have voraciously read many many many books that were published more recently. HOWEVER, the idea of your work being written in the style of classical literature and thus being thrown out by younger audiences, or even being thrown out because they have no grasp of modern literature either, is not completely true. I can't speak for all of us in our teens, but for me, it has nothing to do with how it's written. You can go on and on about how something appears, but the fact of the matter is that I simply do not enjoy the subject matter of your stories. That's seriously it. The idea of humanity becoming nonexistent strikes a bad chord in me, especially when you consider that I am human myself (aren't we all?).
Now, this is not to say your work isn't well written, but that the driving force behind it does not appeal to me. Call it an irrational view if you must, but keep in mind that there are things that some people like, and others don't. We even have a great example right here in front of us: MLP FiM. For this reason I will not condemn you or your stories, because I like to think of myself as being someone who respects the likings of others, even if they clash with my own feelings.
Also I have never been on TVTropes ever except for the occasional link I see here or there. Honestly, I'm not even completely sure what TVTropes even contains. But I get the feeling it's more for humorous purposes than anything.
On the topic of some of the things you stated, this in particular I have something to say about:
Those who don't 'get' that, who don't comprehend that the best way to show the true human heart is to repackage it in the illusion of being 'alien' are either just plain intellectually insufficient, or they have bought into a crazy fool bunch of hogwash made up by those who want to cause trouble, or they are just plain using feigned ignorance to troll.
I was always of the opinion that the best way to show a human being is to show a human being. I get the fact that our "aliens" are just human beings that look different, and that makes sense to me. What doesn't is that showing an alien that represents a facet of the human character, because let's face it, that's what our aliens are, is the best way to show true humanity. Humanity itself contains many many many behaviors and actions for different situations, and saying that by creating an illusion of humanity that acts off one of these and thus shows the true human heart makes no sense. None. Besides that, every human's definition of a true human's heart differs. I'd be willing to bet mine is different than yours, for example. Please, enlighten me on what you mean by saying this.
One last thing:
I always write about the triumphant spirit of Man
May I ask you one question about this, and one only? How does the triumphant spirit of man occur when the serum to change humans into ponies literally changes their viewpoints of the world, and actually alters the way they think? It seems like you're writing about the triumphant spirits of ponies to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
Of course, this could easily be an example of the idea of aliens being different facets of human character, but one facet of human character is not all of human character, and therefore by changing humanity it is impossible to show the triumphant spirit of man because it no longer exists.
With all this said, I have a lot of respect for you for the simple reason that you have dedicted yourself to a universe that has been mocked since it was first released. You have guts to deal with the flames that no doubt emerge from such a thing. So, please don't take any of this as attacks towards you, and instead see it for what it truly is: Curiousity.
216953
"I was always of the opinion that the best way to show a human being is to show a human being.....Please, enlighten me on what you mean by saying this....It seems like you're writing about the triumphant spirits of ponies to me, but maybe I'm missing something."
215877
"Dismissing all critics is one of the worst mistakes a writer..."
I can answer both of you at the same time, because the issue is the same.
I do not dismiss all critics. I only dismiss the ignorant trolls who have a single, stupid issue: that my TCB stories are offensive to them for whatever reason. I don't care about the fact they are offended. Let them be offended. Good. But if they are offended, the answer is not to bother me, but to fuck the hell off. Go away. That is who I dismiss. Someone with a useful criticism of how I could improve what I am intending to do, I listen. Someone telling me I have no right to say what I say, that person I dismiss with extreme prejudice.
So what is the primary complaint? I upset people by showing them just how far humans are from achieving their much proclaimed Ideals. I make some people feel bad when they have to face what reality actually is, what humanity actually is, instead of what they want to believe about it. So they get mad at me.
How do I achieve this amazing stunt? By using the oldest trick in literature, the same one every science fiction writer uses, which is why I mentioned Roddenberry and all the others.
If I write: "Humanity is totally cruel!" the reaction would be "NO! I am not cruel! So you are wrong!" Nobody listens, because they take it too personally.
If I invent a cruel 'alien', even though it is clear that they are just a human with one aspect made more obvious, people can accept that. The 'white lie' that the 'alien' isn't really 'us', allows people to lie to themselves enough to listen and not reject information out of hand.
But if I write a fiction, where ordinary human beings are shown as they truly are, in stark relief, so that it is really clear and really powerful, and then I go and toss in a magic change so that some humans suddenly become everything that Mankind wants to believe about itself... WOW! Suddenly, hate mail, upset people, entire websites devoted to denying me and what I do... the power is over the top.
The best way to show a human being is to show something 'Other'. Make up an alien, and give it specific traits that are human, but make those traits dominant. Klingons are humans with all of our aggression and honor and war turned up to eleven with the knob ripped off. Ferengi are all of our greedy traits isolated and magnified. We look at these 'aliens' but they are not at all alien. They are exaggerated humans. That forces us to confront aspects of human nature, but in the guise of an 'alien' so we don't immediately reject what we see.
Normally, this works great, and most people never admit to themselves what they are being shown. 'It's an alien' is how they lie to themselves, so that they can continue thinking they are little angels and special snowflakes and that their species is Super Wonderful.
But I have chosen to subvert this little contract. I have humans become 'alien' become 'other' - but the other isn't greedy, inferior Ferengi or warlike subhuman Klingons, no... my 'Other' is everything humans want to believe they already are - kind, compassionate, cooperative, loving, free from bigotry, evil, cruelty, violence, just wonderful folks every last person - except for the rare bad ones, of course.
And that pisses people off, because when they see what a truly nice person, a truly good, genuinely moral and ethical human would be like - I dress them in hooves and call them ponies because it's fun - then they must face just how far real life and real people are from that goal. And that hurts people who have never had enough life experience to learn the truth over time. It bothers those who believe the comforting lies we tell to ourselves.
But, that is not who I am writing for, so fuck'em. Seriously - I am writing for people who are mature enough to look at reality and not cry and whine and bitch at me about it. My reader already understands reality and has given up the sappy lies.
So, what does a mature person get from my stories? Same thing I do - relief. Relief from reality. Instead of whinging about how 'awful Man looks compared to 'ponies' (who are really just humans dressed up), the reader I am trying to reach will sigh in yearning at the happy dream of a magic potion that really could make the world better.
You see, we have learned, through experience, that things aren't getting better inside Man. Man is the same as he always has been. Oh, maybe we get better toys in the First World (while the rest of the planet starves), but Humanity is still... the same as it was in ancient Rome, or Babylon, or whatever. Learning does not change the essential animal that is Man. And that is the big tragedy for which there is no answer.
But in my stories, there is! The answer is ponification. Three ounces of fairy magic and bam! Suddenly the inner nature of people is Good instead of a mixed up bag of nice and bad and good and evil and greedy and crappy and bigotry and foolishness. And it is a happy dream to imagine being freed from the burden of having to work so damn hard all the time just to barely manage to be nice. Three ounces, and no more fighting inner demons. Cured. No more evil inside. Instant angel.
And this has nothing to do with 'earning' paradise. That is bullshit. Paradise should be basic, standard, it should be how things are, for free, already. But that isn't how things are, and that hurts worst of all. Fuck earning paradise. It should be free and already here and now.
In the TCB universe, you can drink a potion and win the cosmic lottery, and THAT IS THE POINT. That is the fun - just like superhero comics let people just 'win the lottery' and have an origin story and get superpowers.
You know what? I write superhero stories, where every human being can have an Origin and gain the super-power of not being a dick anymore.
I love that super-power, and I wish everyone had it.
218703
I think, and this does pertain to me in a way, some people are driven off by the idea of a spontaneous solution to all the world's problems suddenly appearing. Is it possible? Hell yes it is, we have no clue what any type of true extra-terrestial race is capable of, but that doesn't change that fact that it's somewhat hard to believe. Even if it did appear right in front of me I would still do a double take and then some. Again, not to say that it can't happen, but that the idea of an "easy way out" is not exactly appealing in most stories. Do you want to read about the guy who had to go on an epic adventure to find talismans to defeat a great evil, or about the guy who had said talismans delivered to his front door by the mail-man?
In addition, paradise is debatable. You know why? Because people see paradise differently. Those people that I hesitate to call evil would see paradise as a whole different ballpark than a priest, for example. For this reason, paradise is nonexistent. It can't exist. It is like the original definition of utopia, meaning literally "no place." All these words for a perfect place are delusions of the human mind because such a place does not exist. Perfection is impossible because of perception.
Along those same lines, every human has different views of him/herself. I know people that are dicks for the simple reason of being a dick. And they say it themselves. Whether it be entertaining to them, or some other reason, they do it. So you're proposing that every human wants to believe that they are a nice, good person? Generalizations are a terrible thing, Chatoyance. You of all people should know this.
And that pisses people off, because when they see what a truly nice person, a truly good, genuinely moral and ethical human would be like - I dress them in hooves and call them ponies because it's fun - then they must face just how far real life and real people are from that goal. And that hurts people who have never had enough life experience to learn the truth over time. It bothers those who believe the comforting lies we tell to ourselves.
Okay, stop right there. You are saying that ethical and nice people are nonexistent. Seriously? I call bullshit. Why? Because I know some of these ethical and nice people. Of course there are bad eggs, and people who don't realize that it isn't picture perfect are delusional, but again generalizations are a no-no.
To finish this off I would like to point out that you didn't answer my last question fully. Where, pray tell, is the so called "triumphant spirit of man" Chatoyance? You just said yourself, ponies are exaggerated nice humans, if you will. Humanity isn't an exaggerated facet of character, humanity is taking the good with the bad. Therefore, where is your "triumphant spirit of man" when you deliberately take it away from humanity? I don't think that an author that prides themself on always "uplifting the spirit of humanity" would deliberately ignore the question, do you think?
218703
Well, my whole point wasn't that people are objecting to your message, but rather misinterpreting it into its diametric opposite. In the case where one or two do this, you would be right in dismissing them as people who didn't read your work carefully enough. When a significant portion do this, I contend that the issue might be in the clarity of your message, or the medium you chose for it. Once again, I say this with the utmost respect for your writing ability.
And, again, superhero powers are great. Until they alter a core aspect of your ID. Your personality. Your being. And force you to do it by holding a proverbial gun to your head (death by magical barrier). Then it's no longer considered a "cool" event, but rather a lovecraftian tragedy. Certainly I don't recall Superman forcing people to be good. Rather, he tried to appeal to their better natures and get them to achieve true change by leading by example.
I assert that it is the personality altering that people hold issue with, not the transformation into ponies. An interesting experiment to verify this, would be to write a story with the same premise, only the serum merely changes your state of mind without altering your physical body all. I'm certain just as many people would hold issue with it as they do with the ponification serum, though I could be wrong.
Additionally, I kind of disagree, in general since you mention few specifics, on your idea of the overall state of humanity. Sure, a lot of tragedies happen. There are a lot of terrible places. I have visited and befriended people in many of the worst of them as part of some of the work I've done through charity organizations. Heck, I was born and lived the first dozen years of my life in a very poor town in Mexico thoroughly dominated by vicious drug lords and their lackeys.
However, as a person who has made a career out of studying and analyzing the human condition (I'm a behavioral economist by education and trade), I have become utterly convinced that the world isn't nearly as badly off as some claim it is. Almost every historical trend (from life expectancy, to standard of living, to access to technological progress) is improving across the board (not just with the top two percent). For instance, a lot of people cite the wealth gap as a negative trend, but the reality of the situation is that while the gap between the elite and the poorest billion is growing larger, we now have a situation where there are several expanding levels in between those two filled with the majority of the world's population.
If you're curious about what makes me say this, I highly recommend reading up on some of Hans Roslng's ground breaking work. I've done some consulting work with his Gapminder foundation, and I found their use of reliable data and statistical analysis utterly brilliant.
Here are a couple of TED talks by him I highly recommend to get you started (if you're interested):
Hans Rosling: Let my dataset change your mindset
On Population Growth
Obviously the videos cover only very basic stuff, but his more complex work and research is mostly available online.
The immutability of the nature of man through learning is something on which we'll obviously have to agree to disagree on. I'm of the opinion that as information, globalization, and interdependence become more available, and as technological progress advances, we'll slowly leave these inner demons behind the way we left our roots as hunter gatherers. Through our own advancement. No magical cure required. We are actually predisposed, as a species, to be good and help each other in the face of disaster. If such self-sacrifice and cooperation is so inimical to our natures as to be reflex, then I have no qualms about holding out hope for the future.
Of course, you are absolutely welcome to your own opinion on the matter. I respect you all the more for how adamantly you defend it, and hope that sometime we can have some sort of open, informative discourse in the subject. No one's mind was ever changed through an argument... but open, honest discussion can engender new world views and epiphanies.
Finally, I am very interested in what you think of the rest of my last post, since this response only addressed my question about your dismissal of critics. Which, by the way, you made a fair point about. However, there are many legitimate concerns critics of the TCB universe (and your version of it) have brought up as well, and I'd love to read what your take is on them.
Sincerely,
Invictus
218807
218838
Meliron - Did I once say there was no ethical or nice people? No, that is entirely you, inventing reasons to chew at my throat. Your drive to 'win' is clouding your reasoning. You can't 'win' anything here, because there is no argument to win. I don't give a crap. I am willing to answer the odd question, if it suits or amuses me.
Any person who enjoys defining themselves as an asshole, a dick, or a trouble making bad sort is by definition broken. They need to be fixed, not encouraged. Being an asshole is not a lifestyle choice, it is a mental illness and it demands treatment. In the worst case, assholes are arrested by the appointed enforcers of the society, and put where their assholiness can either be treated or isolated.
"Do you want to read about the guy who had to go on an epic adventure to find talismans to defeat a great evil, or about the guy who had said talismans delivered to his front door by the mail-man?"
There are a thousand stories of Heroic Quests, they are the oldest form of storytelling. See Joseph Campbell. I would MUCH prefer the story of the mailman bringing powerful talismans to the front door. THAT is pure imagination! That is novel and interesting as hell! What kind of world would make that possible? How would the sudden arrival of so much power change the life of the man, and everyone and everything around him? Is there a price? If the power is unwanted, can he return it? Do the talismans solve problems or create more? Goddess, I would ABSOLUTELY want to read the story of the talisman-by-mail! What a cool idea! I have read a thousand too many stories of dragon-slaying talisman collectors, and I have played that RPG to death. I am bored sick of it. Yes, bring on the talisman-by-mail story. You should write it, Meliron, it is lightning in a bottle.
Invictus - Superman ALWAYS forces people to be good. So does every enforcer that ever lived. All power over others begins and ends with the threat, or the act, of violence. Superman is a cop, an enforcer. His existence means that some activities will be stopped, by incredible physical and magical force: either eye-beams, invulnerability, flight, or a fist harder than steel. Superman is a gun held to the head of every super villain. That is is job, his purpose, the only reason he exists. To fight. To display force, to have power over others. Every single Superman (or any other superhero) comic is always about just that. Do what Supes wants, or face his magical fist. The end.
The fact that statistics shows that overall Mankind is doing better is nice and all, but it is bullshit. The vast majority of humankind lives in slavery - either economic slavery, cultural or religious slavery, military slavery, or actual real slavery, while the wealthy elite - that is you and me, the sort of person who can afford the time to argue on fancy computers in our extant leisure time - enjoy our fine lives on the backs of our invisible slaves.
This doesn't have to be. It could have ended, could end, at any time, just by humanity going "Shit! We've built an entire history based on things rather than people, on wealth rather than life, on economics rather than sharing! Let's all just stop! It's wrong!"
Only that is never, ever, ever going to happen. Why? Because we have always, always wanted things just the way they are, because we are a hunter-gatherer primate with a lust for authoritarian Graybacks and hierarchical representations of worth. That is what we are, not who we are, WHAT. Until that biological truth of our evolution is profoundly altered - by becoming machine people, by re-writing our genes deliberately, by drinking ponification serum - we can put all the lipstick we want on our collective pig, but realistically - we still smell, and taste, like pork.
Of course Man can change, I never once said Man is immutable. But evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years even on the fast track, so that avenue is out if we expect Nature to save our bacon. We will have to change ourselves, physically, biochemically, biologically, entirely. And people won't accept that, they will reject that. So they will need to be forced to be better, and we are full circle to Superman again, aren't we?
But then we've always forced people to do what they 'should' do, what someone wants them to do, rather than what they freely wish to do - because it is the only way to have a civilization in the first place. Let people do whatever they want, and it's Lord Of The Flies with adults all over the place. Gangs, wars, rape and pillage. Basically the entirety of human history, because - as a planet - we have been utterly free already to do whatever we want. And what do we want? Power. Wealth. More. More and more and more, no matter the cost, no matter who it hurts in the end.
Man is not to blame for that, of course. Man is a victim of Nature, of evolution, of what it takes to survive in the savannah. We ended up in business suits with heads full of Noble Ideals, but every cut-throat capitalist or dominating Party Leader is still just playing Grayback to the other apes, and all for More. And More. And More. Because that is how a tribe survives - off of the land, and off of the last successful raid of the weaker tribe.
As always, ever was, ever will be.
Until Man itself is changed.
Enter me, and my winning-the-lottery story of a cure for What Ails Man. It has to be enforced, because humans would never take it willingly. Some would, but not the majority. The Barrier is Superman, and Humanity is Lex Luthor - it really is, dammit, god, is it ever - and potion is Rehabilitation.
It is a happy fantasy. A magic fairy wish that fixes the world, and from which all the bad people cannot escape. It's a native American Ghost Dance, praying that the ancestral land will roll up like a big carpet and wash all the invading Europeans into the sea, whilst magically bringing all the dead back to life from their exposed bones under the ground.
I write Ghost Dance stories to make myself feel better. Because freezing my ass off on this reservation is too hurtful to cope with. Because I've seen the future and Orwell was right. Because it pleases me to do so.
And that... is never, ever, ever going to change one bit.
You see, I am writing the exact sort of story I most want to read.
That means that the only criticism I will listen to is from people who also like this sort of story, and have suggestions on how I can achieve the goal of writing just this sort of story even better.
219174
On your first point, I believe I simply misinterpreted your words. No, I wasn't making that up to attack you. I genuinely thought that was what you had said. My apologies, and if I could rescind that I would.
On the second, I don't believe being an asshole is a mental "condition". I believe it is a state of mind belonging to some people. Is it a good sort of mind? In my opinion, no, but that doesn't put it on the level of an actual serious mental condition. Yes, they are generally seperated from the community simply because the community doesn't tolerate them if they are at a certain level of assholishness if you will, but I was mainly talking about those everyday guys/gals you see that just don't act kind and nice and are on most occasions rude, but they aren't outright hostile. In any case, I only meant to convey that you can't judge all of humanity on one principle that you believe they all share, because it's not necessarily true.
On the third ... touche, Chatoyance. Albeit not the answer I was expecting, I can see your reasoning behind it. I think we may have to agree to disagree here. Although, if I ever do get around to writing a story I may do just that.
If I may be so bold as to state that you seem to be ignoring my arguments that I believe to be valid. I would truly like to see your answers to them. I really would like to see your reasoning behind it.
Last thing:
That means that the only criticism I will listen to is from people who also like this sort of story, and have suggestions on how I can achieve the goal of writing just this sort of story even better.
Please don't tell me you're serious. You are going to flat out refuse any sort of criticism from anyone who isn't a fan of your little universe? Wouldn't it make sense if they dislike it for a reason, and therefore they have an idea to make it better? And then, both parties prosper!
Of course, by all means go ahead and ignore the dicks who don't help or state any possible improvement. Just don't flat out refuse advice because the people giving it don't like what you're writing. It's foolish.
219215 "Of course, by all means go ahead and ignore the dicks who don't help or state any possible improvement. Just don't flat out refuse advice because the people giving it don't like what you're writing. It's foolish."
Let me rephrase it then - if a person were to provide me with advice that actually assisted me in accomplishing my stated goals more successfully, then it would not matter to me whether or not they actually liked my work, so long as they were polite, helpful, and did not belabor just how much they disliked my work, or me, or everything I stand for or do.
Useful information is valid regardless of the source.
But I will not stand for being treated poorly. That is the bottom line here.
This is a My Little Pony fiction site. The expectation is that Ponies are awesome, and that the Pony ethic rules: Love and Compassion. Someone can politely say they don't like my works, and they are only being a little dickish - really, why do I need to know that? I don't. It is useless information to me. It may be important to them, that they don't like my work, but how does that help me? How does knowing that help me feel good? How is that kind? It isn't.
But if a person can point out that I can get more value from my descriptions by employing fewer adverbs, or that using semi-colons are not as effective as just using commas correctly - that is useful information. I want that. That is helping me do what I do, without dumping personal judgements all over me. That's fantastic. That's being helpful and kind.
A kind person helps you how to accomplish your own goals.
An asshole demands to know WHY you have those goals at all.
A person can be utterly kind and not like the person or the work they are assisting at all. Kindness doesn't care. It's just kind.
Of course I would listen to any kind person. Always. But never confuse kindness... with feigned politeness. Many an attack comes in velvet gloves.
219241
True enough Chatoyance. Although, once again, my views are slightly different, but I feel no need to state them. Sadly, you have completely ignored my original inquiry towards you, and for that you have lost some respect in my eyes. You know, all I wanted to do when I posted a comment was to try and understand your point of view on a few things regarding TCB. I can safely say that I am leaving with more knowledge about you yourself, but unfortunately, not about what I wanted to know about in the first place. Oh well, you win some you lose some. Have a good day Chatoyance, and keep on doing what you like.
219281
It's likely I have forgotten, or misunderstood your primary question. Ask it again, as simply as possible, and I will answer.
219174
You make a fair point with your superman comparison, except I think you missed something. There's a fine, but extremely important, line between providing consequences for actions (which is what an enforcer does) and removing the capacity for taking an action altogether. The barrier isn't a consequence, it's a gun to your head forcing you to take a specific action. And the serum isn't an enforcer, it's a removal of an aspect of free will. Gandhi actually elucidated this much more elegantly than I ever will when he said:
"Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."
There is even an actual storyline (if I recall my DC history) where superman switches from enforcing the law to putting himself above it. Forcing people to behave under threat of death and through preemptive action. Let's just say it didn't end well.
The question of free will is never a black and white one. No one wants assholes around, but I personally feel that free will is too high a cost to pay. Of course, that's getting into opinion and philosophy, which have no right answer.
Additionally, I think you also have a different opinion from mine on what constitutes human nature. I'm a proponent of the idea that human nature is one of curiosity and endless expansion. Often, that can lead to conflict, but I propose that that conflict is more often a product of circumstance. Scarcity and misunderstanding are the main drivers of conflict, rather than some internal hard-wiring. I think of it as applying the well-understood concept of Attribution Error (or, rather, avoiding it) on a population rather than an individual.
The reason I think conflict is a constant throughout history is that those two extant circumstances are constants as well. However, those circumstances are things we can do something to reduce, or even eliminate altogether, through technological and social advancement. Again, I point to Hans Rosling's research as an indicator that this is true, seeing as how conflict and death as a percentage of our expense (in money and lives) have declined in correlation to the increasing standards of living and availability of information. Again, it's fascinating research.
In other words, our nature itself is relatively neutral (as often as it leads to conflict, it also leads to progress and discovery), and its end result changes according to the circumstances under which we find ourselves. Change the circumstances and we can achieve the same results as a magical serum without having to rid ourselves of our history or fundamentally alter our personalities.
Of course, each of our theories has merits, and only time (far more than either of us has, I suspect) can prove either one right.
I should also note that this view you propose of an irredeemable (without magic, anyway) human nature is, I suspect, the reason so many people are so quick to call you a misanthropist. Regardless of how accurate or true to life your view turns out to be, that's irrelevant to the definition of the word. Misanthropy is a distaste/hatred for humanity or human nature. Whether there's a good reason to hate human nature or not is irrelevant to the definition. And, from what you've written in the previous comments, I can see why some people would call you that. You clearly dislike certain prevalent traits that you believe are part of our natures as humans. Which would technically make you fit the strict definition of the word.
Now, whether you fit all of the negative social connotations of the word is a different argument. I suspect you do not.
Anyway, that's my two cents on all this. Thanks again for taking the time to read and respond. I found the discussion to be very enlightening and entertaining and I hope we can communicate like this again at some point.
It occurs to me that others' opinions of you matter very little to you, but I would still like you to know that I do like and respect you (in spite of whatever differences of opinion we may have).
Wishing you the best,
Invictus
219285
As I have stated more than once, I would like to know your reasoning behind always "upilfting humanity" in your stories. As in, how does it work when you deliberately destroy parts of humanity so that they can become ponies? I want to know how you believe you are uplifting the "triumphant spirit of man" in this setting, because frankly I don't see it.
219823
Humanity is a divided creature. Man is both good and evil, selfish and altruistic. These conflicting components are necessary for a primate to survive in a world of scarcity and danger.
For most of Humankind's existence, it was well suited to survival; altruistic and cooperative when resources were plentiful, ruthless, warlike, vicious and greedy when resources were scarce. The tribe of Man that survives is the one that raids and kills the others when the famine hits. It is evil as hell, but it is necessary for species survival.
Now we live in an age where all the rules have changed. Evolution did not prepare Man to travel seventy miles and hour in a vehicle, or to have so much food that our own cravings for fat and sugar lead to our early deaths. The human drive to conquer, raid and kill that once kept the species alive on ancient savannahs now threatens the survival of the entire planetary ecosystem. Those ancient drives are incompatible with nuclear weapons, biowarfare, and Mutually Assured Destruction of all kinds. Our primate hunter-gatherer side is our greatest enemy now. Mankind's biggest problem is... it's own meat.
Human Ideals yearn for a human spirit driven by angelic kindness, sharing and compassion - a world of mutuality and communality instead of dominance and aggression. But the genes inside Man drive him to excesses of every kind, to war, to greed, to rape and pillage of the environment. We are ape-men in a world of plenty, yet still stuffing our faces until we die. And the world of plenty is rapidly running out. When it goes, we go.
In order to survive, humanity needs to grow up - and by that I mean drastically change. If Man cannot get rid of those ancient drives hard-wired into the very brain itself, then it is likely Man will become extinct at his own hand.
"As in, how does it work when you deliberately destroy parts of humanity so that they can become ponies? I want to know how you believe you are uplifting the "triumphant spirit of man" in this setting, because frankly I don't see it. "
If the dark, destructive, violent, greedy, selfish, warlike, and cruel parts of Man are not removed, somehow, by whatever means - ponies or uploading consciousness or genetic rewriting of the human genome or fairies or whatever - then the same hand that can spear a neighboring tribesman to take his food, or his woman, or his cool-looking necklace, is the same hand that will push the button that drops the nukes... or releases the superplague... or cuts down the last tree... leading to the extinction of all life on earth.
When you grow up, the primary purpose of school is not to teach you facts - school is boot camp for human interaction. That is the real point of being 'raised' - to make a selfish child learn to defer pleasure and become generous and polite with others. It is what makes civilization possible. Otherwise, we would all be at each other's throats like cave-men, which is what in truth we all are.
When you are taught to be mutual, to get along with others, something is taken from you against your will. You have your selfishness dimmed, your feeling that you are the center of everything crushed. You have your sense of being able to do no wrong beaten out of you. You lose a lot. But it is necessary, so that you can live with others, and so that we all can live together. Children are 'uplifted' into adults. Children without such training will easily end up killing each other - and yes, real studies have been done on this, it is fact.
So, with adults, what is the next step, the next 'uplifting' the next schooling? Beating adults into submission only works to a point, and then they rebel, and you have war. With nukes. So that is not the answer. You cannot train man to always be Good.
So the bad parts, the useless parts that once served humanity when killing the neighbors for their food was a good thing - that has to go. You cannot have a peaceful world until that goes. No religion, or social plan, or form of government can overcome the natural drives of man. That is why Communism failed - in the end, while it looked good on paper, it cannot apply to humans. Humans are too selfish. Humans will not share on that scale, because they didn't evolve to share on that scale. Tribe before all, family before tribe.
That is why my 'ponification' removes evil. 'Evil' - tribalism, bigotry, selfishness, greed, violence, cruelty - is what is lost in my ponification process. It needs to be removed for a human to finally even be ABLE to live up to the ideals of constant, universal kindness, compassion for all living things, love for all things, sharing with all, caring for all, respect for all others. Evil has to go, or we, as a species, will perish in the end - we are biologically incapable of being good all of the time. And we have to find a way to be good all the time, or else... one day.... will be the last day for Mankind.
Neither you nor I can go though an entire week without getting mad at something, or someone, or wanting something we can't have, or not wanting to share something for whatever reason. It is impossible. We aren't built to be that nice, and no amount of training or being beaten will change that.
That is why something is 'lost' in Ponification. Evil is lost, and goodness is enhanced. Compassion is enhanced. Selfishness is reduced. In a nutshell, that is the entire pony change, right there. Just those two things.
If you are super-compassionate, you care about others and naturally would share with them and not want to hurt anyone. Violence of any kind would instantly become unpleasant. Stealing and raping and pillaging would be unthinkable. And nuking another civilization would be utterly impossible, just as war would be.
If you are super-generous, all things are shared, and you would never be selfish with your time, your energy, or your resources. No one would go hungry, no one would lack for anything.
This is currently impossible.
"As in, how does it work when you deliberately destroy parts of humanity so that they can become ponies?"
What is being destroyed? Evil. The ability to be evil is the only thing destroyed during ponification in my stories - nothing else is lost.
Evil is not a triumphant part of Humanity - quite the opposite, it is the least triumphant part of being human.
I believe I have over-answered your question to the point of beating it into the dirt. This should be a very dead subject now. To object to the mental changes in my description of ponification is to effectively state that Evil is desirable, worthwhile, and precious. And any species that considers Evil to be good, is a species that is doomed to become extinct - and which, frankly, SHOULD become extinct.
219748
"Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."
Gandhi was talking about the freedom of political self-governance versus British rule, not issues of moral and ethical behavior. You are using his words out of context and applying them to subjects his words were never intended to address. On moral and ethical matters, Gandhi was very much in favor of depriving others of their freedoms, especially black people who he felt were biologically inferior and needed to be controlled like animals. He was quite clear on this matter. And quite outspoken.
So politically, Gandhi was all about freedom - for India, alone. In terms of moral and ethical behavior, he was quite the narrow little bigot, and the strict little bastard. He is a very bad choice to quote around me, because I have studied his checkered past - and it is VERY checkered.
"The question of free will is never a black and white one. No one wants assholes around, but I personally feel that free will is too high a cost to pay."
I presume you will be murdering and raping and stealing this afternoon? And you won't mind, philosophically at least, if someone does the same to you? Yes, I am being facetious, but with a point - you already pay a vast price in free will, and you do so gladly.
You have already paid the vast majority of your free will in exchange for safety, food, shelter, companionship, and material goods. You have done so partly because you were forced to against your will, and partly because you are a willing accomplice in your own loss of free will. You have been trained, against your will, to sacrifice your freedom to follow 'rules', and you gladly accept additional losses of free will to avoid being imprisoned or killed, with the happy joy of knowing that others will also be imprisoned or killed if they do not do the same.
In this way, Civilization is possible at all. You have paid for your seat in society with the coin of your free will. You have paid most of your free will for this. Virtually all of your free will. Now you live in a clockwork world of sleep, job, lunch, job, commute, dinner, a speck of recreation, sleep - repeat until dead. Occasionally you may enjoy the illusion of free will when you go on holiday - but even that is shallow. You have to follow the rules wherever you go, do you not?
And this is a GOOD thing. Without the loss of 90% of all free will, Mankind would die in a great cluster-fuck of violence and rapine. Society would disintegrate and and it would be raiding tribes and starvation until inevitable extinction.
Ponification takes only that bit of free will that innately, biologically demands violence, greed, selfishness and cruelty. That is all that it takes, nothing more. It provides additional compassion, love, empathy, and sharing... along with a higher background level of 'feel-good' chemistry. The result is a species that does not need laws anymore, because the set of free-will behaviors no longer includes evil as an option.
So, from that perspective, the loss of evil means total free will is actually gained, not lost. If a species doesn't wish to harm or hurt or destroy anything or anyone, then criminal law is unnecessary. Enforcers are unnecessary, except as protection from alien foes. Note that there are no police in Equestria. Note that Celestia's guards are mostly ceremonial, and only fight outsiders.
My ponified characters can do absolutely anything they want to do. Total and absolute free will. They just don't want to murder, rape, steal, hurt, torture, slaughter or destroy anymore, they don't even like thinking about such things. 'Evil' is no longer within their option set.
Free will is only what our genes tell us we should want. With different, nicer genes, our free will is untouched - only the violence is gone, and any species that things that evil is good.... is a species doomed to go extinct - and it should go extinct.
220235
I realize, of course, that that quote is out of context, and that Ghandi was not nearly the perfect saint people make him out to be (heck, there's evidence he may even have had a penchant for young girls in not entirely pleasant ways). However, I used the quote with the full knowledge of that and in the belief that the words of that quote, by themselves and regardless of the intent of the speaker, convey a profound truth.
And I have not given up my free will. Why? Because at any time I can choose to give up this life of comfort for something different. Harder, in many cases perhaps, but different. In fact, I have, as have many people. I have given up my job to seek new ventures. I have lived with and as the locals do in Nigeria, China, and Brazil. I have known the pain of near starvation, as well as the fruits of hedonism. My job is my recreation and my recreation is the adventures I have while achieving my own self-fulfillment.
Perhaps not everyone chooses the uncertain life, but the choice is there (hence, the free will). And there are many of us who choose to take it.
In my travels, I learned one very important thing: Even in the depths of poverty and despair, people have an amazing capacity for finding happiness and fulfillment, often through their friends and family. Yes, not all do, and tragedy can always strike. But that capacity is always there.
And, again, if that little bit of free will... the capacity to do harm unto others... was the only cost. Then maybe it might be a worthwhile cost. Perhaps we could justify the means for such an ideal end. Then again, one could also say that true goodness arises from having the capacity to do evil, but choosing to do good instead. Much as bravery cannot be commended without the ability to feel fear.
Again, though, it is not the thought of these "ends" that I, and many of the critics of the TCBverse, protest. It is the means. To force your views upon upon others (via threat of death, no less) requires a level of disregard for their own wishes that verges on sociopathic. "This is how things should be, so be that way or die." it's not a happy thought. And it seems like the whole of mankind is being convicted of crimes most of us will never commit. Most of us, at worst, will be guilty of minor offenses. Some pride or selfishness perhaps. But even the season 1 ponies were guilty of that. I distinctly recall a certain blue coated show are displaying some dangerous disregard for the feelings and safety of the ponies around her.
Perhaps one could argue the institution of "ponification" as a punishment for serious crimes done. That seems a more compromising solution. It certainly feels more like consequence than judgement. Who knows?
More so, I reiterate my previous point about "surrender". I firmly believe that this is a goal we can achieve in time, entirely on our own. Accepting magical fix from an alien reflection of ourselves seems defeatist to me... but I admit to a certain level of pride in myself and my species.
Again though, this is all purely speculation. and it touches on issues too complex that we could not possibly discuss them in depth here. Such is the complexity of human nature. However, I encourage you to keep writing. I encourage you to keep learning, and living, and loving, and contributing. and of course, to disagree... because it is a part of your free will to have the ability to hold conflicting ideas and defend them in discourse.
So, to sum up my views and bring closure to my own contributions to this conversation (for now, at least), I'll leave you with my favorite quote from one of my favorite authors of all time (this one affirmed by its context.)
"And finally, I believe in my whole race. Yellow, white, black, red, brown — in the honesty, courage, intelligence, durability … and goodness … .of the overwhelming majority of my brothers and sisters everywhere on this planet. I am proud to be a human being. I believe that we have come this far by the skin of our teeth, that we always make it just by the skin of our teeth — but that we will always make it … survive … endure. I believe that this hairless embryo with the aching, oversize brain case and the opposable thumb, this animal barely up from the apes, will endure — will endure longer than his home planet, will spread out to the other planets, to the stars, and beyond, carrying with him his honesty, his insatiable curiosity, his unlimited courage — and his noble essential decency.
This I believe with all my heart."
-Ray Bradbury
Sincerely,
Invictus
220430 "To force your views upon upon others (via threat of death, no less) requires a level of disregard for their own wishes that verges on sociopathic."
So many times I have carefully stated the obvious, and so many times you have failed to see it.
It doesn't matter whether you choose to live in the third world, or in the first. It doesn't matter where you go - so long as there is one other person near you, you have already sold your free will. Your full free will ends the moment there is any rule or agreement (such as 'I won't steal your stuff if you don't steal mine), and that loss of free will is enforced, against your will, by violence. It does not matter if the enforcement is by nuke, or gun, or social shunning or the fist or the machete of a tribal chief.
You always lose your free will against your wishes. Always. Because always inside you is the spoiled child, the cave man, who doesn't want to have to share, or follow the rules, however much you consciously choose to sell your full free will for a gain.
But this is moot: you have no free will to begin with. You sacrifice one illusion for another - and I am not speaking in metaphysics, I am talking biology.
What is your free will? It is your choices. Why do you choose? Because you desire. Where do you get your desires, are they your own invention? NO.
You want what your genes tell you to want, which is sweet and fat and nutrition packed. That isn't your choice. You want more tasty stuff because evolution decided that choice for you. It also decided how much you want space, material possessions, power, dominance, sex, rest, social contact, freedom, protection, shelter and every other single thing. In studies of separated twins, it has been demonstrated that you do not even choose your own favorite color. So what is your free will then? It is an illusion. A very compelling one, to be sure.
But, you say - alright, I admit that the set of every single thing I could want or shun is predetermined by evolution and my genes, so my free will cannot be my likes and dislikes, nor my wants nor desires. AHA! You say - I can still choose, freely, whether I act on those predetermined genetic drives! I can refuse to be their slave!
No. The ability to defer pleasure, to deny our drives is itself a genetic component, and is easily seen as the evolutionary advantage it is. Those who can defer their immediate innate drives for longterm gains have a survival advantage, and so it is that these traits can be followed and studied. Your choice to not choose is not free will either.
If you truly had free will, real free will, you would not be controlled by your primate flesh. No human has experienced this. Perhaps, someday, machine beings might, if we don't fill them with pre-programmed desires.... such as we ourselves have.
But back to the topic at hand - it is not my problem that some people hate my stories of people being given the gift of freedom from evil, because they imagine that the loss of evil is somehow a 'bad' thing. Those too unaware to comprehend that they already have their free will stolen by the necessity of living in a society of rules and laws are... well they have a lot of learning to do, however old or experienced they are... whatever they experienced was not understood.
In a jungle, in a tribe, there are rules. And if you don't follow them, you will be punished, against your will. If you are stranded on a desert island with but one other person, and you cross them, you will be beaten, or forced to fight. Your freedom must always be compromised merely to survive, and as much as the childish cave man inside you argues otherwise, it is nevertheless a fact.
My ponification is not like having a perfect policeman inside your head, keeping you honest.
My ponification is like being freed from evolutionary biology enough to stop wanting to harm those that offend, steal from those that have, and gain status in order to dominate. Ponification is one step closer to true free will, rather than the loss of free will.
The problem is that our free will is already gone because of cruel biological drives. Ponification erases the cruel commands and leaves only the minimal set involved with altruism.
What the hard of thinking see as 'loss of free will' is actually a reduction in their inbuilt command directives, permitting them more free will. Every moment every person is being told, inside, by the meat, to be a cave man, a hairless, cruel primate that has needs and drives. Ponification takes those cave man orders out of the equation - what is left is a free mind no longer being pushed to be the cruel ape anymore.
The superpower of 'not being a dick' is actually the superpower of being freed from the chains and shackles of being a damn dirty ape.
With less commands, there is more freedom.
220160
Woah, you've got some strong views there.
But then I have a rebuttal for you. Celestia. Your Celestia actually stated that she knew what would happen and that she is responsible for what happened. And she feels no remorse. In this case, you could see it as Celestia thinking she was right and doing what she believes is right, but so did the Crusades. And look what happened there. In this case, evil is dependent on perception, and I see that deliberate action as being evil. She forcibly took over the entirety of the Earth by simply forcing conversion or death. That is what it is. It's almost like ... Charlemagne. Now that's a scary thought ... one which you share and believe.
So then, evil is still existent among ponies, and furthermore, existent in their ruler. Well, that's awful nice isn't it? By your own definition, ponies should be extinct in your universe, because they consider Celestia, a being capable of evil actions and who exercised that capability, a good and supreme being. Huh, fancy that.
220700
No. I think you fail to grasp a fundamental issue here.
In our universe, Mundis, there is no absolute morality whatsoever. Morality is what we say it is, it is a human invention. Yes, morality and ethics are derived from our genes, from our evolutionary past - altruism has survival value, as does trust and self-sacrifice (Take One For The Team!) and all the underlying basis for morality... but none of that has any more purpose to it than any other part of the natural world. It exists because the machine of it works, and that is the only reason at all.
We live in an entropic, soulless, mechanical universe of physics and matter and energy, and everything that happens is a product of randomness with a ratchet. There are no gods, there is no magic, and we are just stuck here - poor primates with delusions of grandeur, imagining that our lives mean something, and that our imagined right or wrong extends beyond us. It does not.
So, in that context, the Crusades are indeed evil, as you say, because they are just a big dominance grab for land and resources - one tribe raiding another, genocide for profit, justified by fairy tales.
But in my fiction - Celestia and Luna really are goddesses. They really truly are magic beings from a magical land where magic pours out of the faucets for free and magic, real magic is in every bite and under every rock. In my fiction, Equestria, being so magical, actually has really real souls and a really real afterlife, and... Mundis, our universe does not.
In my stories, when a Man dies, he is gone forever and ever and ever. Dead is dead. That's it. No purpose, no meaning, no point, just biological machines suffering in the dark. That is us.
So, when a real, authentic goddess and her sister show up, they literally ARE an objective, absolute morality. I have painted them as being Utterly Good. They are embodiments of Compassion itself. So, what they do is not arbitrary. What they do is moral, always. Because they are magic gods of Goodness.
Thus, when Celestia invades our universe and puts humans in the position of 'convert or die' she is literally saving our very souls - or rather, manufacturing souls for us to have. We don't have souls. She is providing them, so we don't just vanish to oblivion forever, as though we never mattered at all.
And those humans who resist? The suffering of a species that has no future, no hope and no soul is beyond comprehension. It is the most utterly nihilistic thing possible. When they die, that's it, and no species lives forever in an entropic, dead universe.
By turning humans into ponies, she is saving what we are, and preventing the loss of what we are from eventually vanishing forever. Her word is law, her actions are moral, because unlike the Crusades or any other example - in my stories Celestia is actually, really, genuinely saving humankind from oblivion.
Saving an entire species from utter extinction forever and ever is about the most moral and Good thing it is possible to do, and that would be true even here, even without a magical land of Pony Gods.
That's the big joke in all of my stories, you see.
Throughout history, Man has done the most terrible things in the name of nonexistent gods.
But in my fiction, the gods are real, and they are called Celestia and Luna, and all the fake crap that mankind does for religion doesn't apply at all. Why? Because unlike human gods, in my stories, Equestria is really magic, souls are really real, and Celestia really, actually is an expression of a factual Absolute Morality. She can make mistakes, because she cannot know everything - but she can Do No Wrong, because what is right or wrong belongs to the Eternal, which she literally is.
Get it? Get the joke?
In my stories, humans are really, actually being offered immortality, they don't entirely grasp it, and many reject it, but good 'ol Celestia is screwing up her own universe to save us anyway, out of true compassion, love and grief over our terrible fate.
It's every religious myth, made real, only painted in ponies - and the best part of the joke is that the people who hate me the most for it probably believe in gods that do exactly the same thing that I am depicting, and they excuse those gods in every imaginable way. In short, utter hypocrisy, and I get to enjoy them making fools of themselves complaining to me about 'immorality!'
In my stories, Celestia is pony Jesus - and a lot of people, when presented with the mechanics of how 'savioring' works (believe in me or die, believe in me or suffer in hell, do what I say or suffer for eternity), they HATE it! And it is likely what they actually believe themselves, only they can't see that. Or admit it. Or deal with it.
So - all the arguments about how 'immoral' and 'evil' my Celestia is are really just people looking at the myth of Jesus (and other savior types) and judging the whole concept of having to bow to a savior as evil, and likely, they don't even realize it.
And it is pretty evil, if you think about it - the Jesus myth, not my Celestia. Why? Because all Celestia asks in exchange for immortality and peace and paradise is "Join us! Wear hooves and be peaceful!". But what every other god or savior or deity wants is nothing less than total obedience, total worship, total acceptance of a narrow belief system and often the open slaughter or domination of all others in the bargain. If you don't accept, well it's an eternity of punishment for you.
You know what happens to humans in my story that don't accept Celestia's offer? Nothing. Nothing at all. They were going to die and cease to exist forever anyway, and when that happens, that is literally nothing. Celestia is just making sure there are no more meat machines being born, because she doesn't want any more pointless suffering ending in oblivion. That is why she is wiping out the human species in our universe - for the same reason we put a dog out of misery, when it is too old and sick, and nothing can be done anymore. It's a kindness. Because life in Mundis, our universe, is harsh and terrible.
But not in Equestria, where glowing magic is in every single thing, where everything is alive with souls, where all goodness lives.
So, is Celestia moral and good? Of course she is. Duh. If she was sensible, she would never have tried to help mankind at all. We are ungrateful bastards at best. But... my Celestia is just plain too compassionate. Plus she keeps her promises.
221280
Okay, I concede. I wish to stop this now. My own views clash far too much with yours for this to ever lead anywhere. It would never end, so there is no point. Perhaps you saw this before I did, and were simply obliging my curiousity. If this is the case then I thank you.
I do see your reasoning behind these ideas, and I didn't even notice the religious joke in there, which made me laugh (I am an atheist fyi). I can respect your ideas, and your writing, although I do not agree with them. Anyway, thanks for having this discussion with me. Although I still am not a fan of the idea, I leave here today with a firmer grasp on why people like it, and why you wrote it.
Good bye Chatoyance, and have a good one.
Greetings Chatoyance
Interesting this is the first time I've ever seen anyone do an interview of themselves. Though I can't say I've ever heard of a co-wife or someone having three spouses before. Mind elaborating on that point. I was coming here to bid you adu with the rest of this Conversion Bureau stuff since I've decided that its cursed, but I have had a change of heart after reading it would appear that your far more facinating then I could possibly have imaged.
Therefore I have decided to keep my eye on you. You should be flattered that you've caught my attention since it means I beginning to like you Chatoyance. That and I feel bad for so woefully misjuging you.
However I still do not care much for these conversion bureau stories. Mostly because the idea fills me with dread, and yet I keep coming back for reasons I do not understand so odviously its cursed. That or fate is mad at me for some reason.
So I have a feeling I'll be seeing you again my strange enigma So long. Mothra! <jumps on mothra flies away>
224513
I love Mothra! I have the Mothra song in my mp3 collection. One of my spouses is a total G-Fan, and I have become one as well.
I also really like Gamera, too. Well to be fair, I have come to love all Kaiju movies, really. My favorites are King Ghidorah, Godzilla (of course), Gamera, Mothra, Baragon (Rainbow Beam... I wish they had done more with that) and Guilala / Girara - seriously. I like frikkin' Guilala. Weirdest of the bunch.
224740
Nice! Its always nice to meet a fellow Kaiju fan most people think I'm wierd for liking cheesy japanese monster movies, and most freak out when they see what Mothra looks like. I always find it funny though since my friends for the most part are all bronies so I often want to say oh look whos talkig Mr. I watch a show about ponies.
Oh well sorry for going on a tangent I'll see you around my strange enigma. I look foreward to seeing more of what you come up with this strange case that is The conversion bureau!