Ray Rice, the Jesus Countdown, and character forgiveness · 5:20pm Sep 9th, 2014
For those outside the States and general sports news, I'm going to need a minute to explain.
The believe-it-or-not short version: there is an NFL player named Ray Rice. He has been suspended indefinitely from the league and been cut from his team: no current employment and no other franchise may sign him. This is a punishment for domestic assault. He hit his fiance in a casino elevator, then dragged her off it. (Then-fiance. Now spouse. Certain elements of the media are repeating that sixteen times per hour.) The casino cameras recorded everything. Until recently, only the video from the elevator exit was seen, and the NFL is claiming they never saw the interior recording (which had the actual punches) until yesterday, which a lot of people are having trouble believing. But yesterday, when the second viewing came out....
Y'see, until yesterday, his punishment was a two-game suspension, out of the sixteen which make up the regular season. This got a reaction. A very loud one. In the NFL, you can be suspended four games the first time you use a certain herbal painkiller. Hitting your fiance hard enough to knock her out and make her wish for that smoke? Just two. Most of the world backlashed on the league, excepting those who were only too happy to use the incident for racist remarks, blaming the victim, or both. The league's commissioner hastily upped all future violation punishments to at least six games, admitted to making a mistake for the first time ever, and is possibly now cowering in a bunker somewhere because pretty much no one believes the NFL couldn't get access to the elevator video, never even asked for it, and so many people feel that commissioner watched the assault and said "Meh. Two games. It's not like he took a drug.' But once the public saw it all... banned indefinitely, cut, gone. No jail time: he entered pre-trial intervention and so prison is not an option. But his employment, at least for football in the States, is gone. The NFL is blocked, the Arena League would be terrified of the publicity, and our Canadian cousins know the press can get across the border.
We could get into why attacker and assaulted married after that, and the way she's going after the media for bringing this all back time and again. There could be a long discussion on domestic abuse. The stupidity of the commissioner is a lifetime subject. We could even do a joke or two about how that particular casino is now bankrupt and about to close because clearly the NFL tried to drive it out of business before anything could get out: however, they were pretty much in the middle of going down for the third time before this ever started. I thought about some of that myself.
But I also hit the clock on the Jesus Countdown.
Because quite frequently, when a celebrity gets into trouble in the States.... when they're caught doing something wrong, horrible, brutal, beyond any level of pale... shortly after it all comes out, they will call a press conference. And in front of the Fourth Estate, they will announce how very sorry they are about it all (while often neglecting to hint at exactly what they're sorry about). But this incident -- whatever it was, whether they did or or not, even if everyone else is lying and we all know videos can be faked, plus the words 'false flag operation' can get into it for the most desperate -- has done them a favor. It has forced them to reexamine their very soul. And they surrendered themselves to a higher authority, one who instantly forgave them, and guess what? It's all better now. Everything is. And if that authority has taken them back into grace, how can everyone else not do the same?
It's very rare for the Jesus Countdown to run more than two weeks. It can come in later than that if you're tracking from the start of the latest scandal, but the timer really only starts running when the only possible doubt over guilt is in the mind of the celebrity's PR staff.
There are times when it's sincere. Some people need that one hard shock before they can see themselves from the outside. Committing to change through faith can be a reaction for some.
But with others... it's a sucker ploy. Appeal to people's faith and hope that in doing so, you skip over their reason. Nothing's changed except your excuse. You're a better person now, because religion. If you happen to slip, well that happens, but forgiveness. For those attempts, it's trying to gloss over everything with magic words. They say 'Jesus', a significant part of the population says 'solved'.
At some point, Ray Rice is going to try and return to the NFL Perhaps he'll seek counseling, anger management, couples therapy. He may turn his life inside-out and come to terms with what's revealed at the core. Everyone in his immediate life will forgive him, he might even do the same for himself, and he'll try to make a living again. Or he could just take a few months off after the Jesus Countdown hits zero, then announce the comeback. And either way... he has a right to reenter society, does he not? To try and make a living again? But everyone else has the right to consider if they truly want to hire him, knowing all the media baggage he brings along, or decide if they believe him at all...
We're big into second chances, we Statesiders, at least for those whom we feel will personally benefit us. The average criminal just out of jail will find nearly every door closed in his face, but give that former felon the ability to run a hundred yards in nine and a half seconds, then just watch the money come in. The sports world watched another man, one who thought training dogs to kill each other and having parties to view the results was just casual entertainment, come back into the league. Because he'd changed? Maybe that one has. He's certainly learned the right words to say, and not to start any more dogfighting rings. But he wouldn't have gotten that second chance if he couldn't throw a ball and run with it when all the receivers were blocked.
Ultimately, some believed him: some always do. Some will believe Ray Rice, and will do so at the instant the Jesus Countdown hits zero: after all, the magic words were said. And because the talent is there, because he can benefit the team which takes him and his supposedly-clean soul in, and the media forgets once the next story comes along... he'll get another chance.
But will he have changed, truly? That's between him and himself. Or perhaps his deity.
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Let's talk about character forgiveness for a moment.
The atonement story is a popular theme, and it doesn't lose any of that backing when it reaches fanfic. If anything, it can get stronger. We're playing, all of us, and one of the most popular themes in a sandbox for the youngest dreamers is 'Why can't the good guys and the bad guys get along?' Everyone loves a good strange-allies story, don't they? Yes, this is the hero and this is the villain, but they both live on the same world and when the bigger threat comes along, they'll fight together to defend their home.
But the fact is... some of those villains are horrible people. They've done terrible things. There's just an aspect of the viewer which wants to grant another chance because... well, wouldn't it just be fun if things were different? If everyone got along? If they were just...
...friends.
We make excuses for their behavior, don't we? Over and over again.
Let's look at my record, because I'm pleading guilty.
Gilda? Hey, any griffon pulled out of the dominance chain is going to be a bitch for about a week until they get things sorted out.: it's how they do the sorting at all. She would have settled down eventually, right? She was fine with Rainbow because that was her local link: everypomy else would have been accommodated given enough time. Really, wouldn't you say it's the ponies' fault for not bothering to learn about the internal upheaval she was going though and just waiting things out in patience and understanding?
Trixie? No Karma Houdini here: she was caught, tried, and ultimately put on probation by Celestia, who understands a little more than most about ponies who lose themselves in trying to catch up to the unattainable. She's exchanging notes on magic with Twilight now. Maybe even starting to see her as a friend. And sure, she took a stupid shortcut, but the Amulet was corrupted by resonance, Trixie thought she could handle it, stay on top of it... but it was the Amulet taking those actions, not her. She's egotistical and arrogant, but she's not a bad pony, she just needed to see herself from the outside...
Luna? Possessed. She had one bad moment when nopony was there to guard her, and it opened the door for something else to take over. Buried inside herself for a thousand years, a completely separate imprisoned entity trapped within Nightmare. So how is there even anything to forgive? None of what happened was actually her.
Do I have to go on? I could. I suspect many of us could start our own confessions. The litany of excuses would become a multi-bard concert tour.
And why are we forgiving them? Making up excuses for them so we can forgive them at all?
We forgive those whom we believe will personally benefit us. And we need something from them. Their presence as characters. Their stories.
In real life, Stateside, there is the Jesus Countdown. For fanfic, there's an argument to be made for the Friendship Timer. On some level, many of us simply need for these creations to interact in a more positive way. Surely there must be a larger menace they could band against and in doing so, learn how much they truly like each other once those barriers drop. Perhaps there could be a connection there. A romance. Anything but the fighting, because there is still that inner child who doesn't want to see those we spend time with hating each other. We want them to get better. To simply have been misunderstood all along. For the rest of the world to just be getting it wrong. Or to look at themselves from the outside and then...
We grant second chances. Are they always deserved? Why do we forgive some and not others? Is it because we accept the local version of magic words, which are 'team up'? Are we looking for what they can do for us? Who do we call irredeemable?
In life, some say the words and hope they make everything vanish, while nothing truly changes within. In fiction... heels, faces, revolving doors. But for fanfic... it often seems the gate swings one way: former opposition into cherished companion.
Are we being fair with the characters when we do this? There are some who likely could never change, would only fake such as setup for their next plot. Those they offended... are they going to be so quick to accept even the possibility of reform? Give the Mane Cast credit: at least they expressed incredulous doubt with Discord, at least in-series. But before that happened, how many writers were giving him a tortured past, prior connections with the sisters... anything which would be an excuse? Something which would make it easier to forgive because once everypony knew, they would simply accept him because they understood the cause, the pain, the excuse...?
In life... we have doubts. We wonder about motivations, at least some of us. And we tend to take people back when we already have a connection with them...
...or if they can do something for us.
Which characters have you forgiven? How many did you make excuses for? In both cases, why? And would those you had granting that second chance in-story have truly done so on their own?
Would your former villain stand in front of gathered press and declare they had become a new pony through dedicating their lives to the ideals of the Diarchy?
Personal change is hard. In real life, it can be a long struggle, and the temptation to revert doesn't vanish instantly.
In fiction...
...we write. And so it happens, and those around them are commanded to forgive. And we can call it the theme, claim there are magic words here and they're supposed to make things better, but... is that the pure reason?
How many Friendship Timers do you have running?
Huh. Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't play up the bitchiness in my adventure story when Gilda joins Twilight and Dash. And wondering the same thing for the TrixieDash story I'm planning.
Think those are the only two I really do that with, though. Oh, and Diamond Tiara. But I still argue that she's just a brat and will grow out of it.
I can at least take comfort in the knowledge that I will always write Sombra and Chrysalis as irredeemable horrific monsters.
I have forgiven no villains, save those who have repented in canon, and made no excuses.
The point of redemption is that there is something bad to forgive, something to repent of, and that it is repented of. Making excuses for villains nullifies redemption by rendering it unnecessary.
Besides that, many of the MLP villains are antagonists in episodes that are essentially morality tales. Gilda and Trixie are prime examples of this. The whole point of a morality tale is to draw the world in stark black and white, so that the contrast between the two becomes apparent. I hated it when they brought Trixie back into the show, and complained many times even before it happened that I hoped it wouldn't. Doing that sort of thing just nullifies the whole morality tale aesthetic by obscuring the stark contrasts and redrawing things in shades of gray. One could argue that there are better ways to convey moral lessons than morality tales, but the fact is that Trixie was pretty obviously drawn up to be as close to an exact foil of Twilight as possible, in order to highlight the specific differences between them. Much as I like Sunset Shimmer, she was even closer to an exact foil of Twilight, and it was an objective flaw of the first EQG movie that they ended up redeeming her (without, you know, actually making the movie be about her redemption). IMO, the only well-done canon redemption of a villain was that of Discord in the S4 finale.
Are you actually asking? This seems like an interesting exercise to see how forgiving I am, but I don't want to drop a wall of text into the comments if you don't want one. I could always do it on my own. I think I'll do that. Thanks for the idea!
Also, hooray for the USA, where Justice lifts her blindfold for those who play sportsball.
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Wall Of Text away. We may wind up with a pretty good start on a halfway house.
I suppose I kind of forgave Chrysalis, by first making her cartoonishly incompetent (not a great leap away from canon), then making all the other changelings incapable of fending for themselves and dependent on her constant guidance for survival, and then giving her a friendly companion in the form of a brainwashed Silver Spoon. But then, no part of that story was meant to not make your brain melt.
In general, I suspect I forgive far less than is deserved
I'm happy to leave every villain in the show as villainous, including several that have been redeemed. I felt absolutely no sympathy for Babs in her introductory episode, which I still cannot bring myself to rewatch, and find the adoration given to Discord to be baffling.
On the other hand, I love Luna even though I specifically cannot stand the idea that the Nightmare was a separate being, and that Luna only let it take over in a moment of weakness. Oh well.
I genuinely want it to be real. Not cause I care a rat's rear about sports, but because it's right. Everyone needs just one chance to make things right. A stupid idea? Naive? Yes to all that. But if you can't hope for a world where everyone "just gets along", how can one exist?
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As you wish. Needless to say, this draws heavily from my headcanon.
Luna has an insanity defense. Black magic abuse is rarely good for the ol' noggin. Especially not when you forcibly divide your personality along the symbology of the lit and shadowed halves of the moon.
Gilda's just that abrasive. She never really grew past who she was in Junior Speedsters, when even Dash progressed a little. She ended up joining the armed forces some time after and got some humility shoved down her throat. Sadly, one of the few timelines where she reconciles with Dash is the one where extradimensional magic cyborgs invade.
Trixie... well, most of the central story of my work was written before Season 2. As such, I was part of the "Luna's apprentice" camp with her, so her Timer expired with me before it did in canon. She also acts as a sort of diarchial intermediary, an outside perspective for the both of them.
Diamond Tiara doesn't need a Friendship Timer. She needs somepony who can ignore her passive aura of authority and smack her upside the head now and again. Silver Spoon needs different friends. Whether either of them gets what she needs is something I haven't decided.
Discord? He has a Freudian excuse. Never really knew his parents, lost his sister to overwork, then had to finish what she started (and bringing further order to existence didn't help his mental state.) Once the world was made, he had nothing to do but mourn and sulk. Eventually, it was easier to go mad than stay sane. And then his nieces petrified him.
The Flimflam brothers are mostly motivated by capitalistic self-interest, though there is something of a tragic element there. Their marks symbolize a talent in apple processing, most unusual for unicorns. Having a talent for honest business is, in a twisted way, a betrayal of their family legacy of con artistry and shysterism. (After all, it's right there in the name.) They're trying to stay true to their roots.
Chrysalis is just immature and kind of a bitch. She picked parasitism over symbiosis, and she's sticking with it come Tartarus or tidal surges. Heck, she only has about ten more years to live before the next queen is born. You only reign once.
Sombra is the victim of bad luck and worse publicity. He was doing the wrong things for the right reasons, trying to keep the Empire from depending on a single artifact for their defense. He just wanted them to be safe. Unfortunately, as the saying goes, "Quality, speed, price. Pick two." He wanted it done well and fast, and he paid a heavy cost in quality of life. Cue a pair of disgruntled alicorns showing up at the worst possible time, and the rest is history.
Sunset Shimmer is pretty much in Season 1 Twilight's place, only with less magic and more strabismic girls teaching her card games. Basically, her Friendship Timer is one that has to be manually wound down, but she has people working on it.
Tirek is a minor extension of the fundamental principle of destruction. He is literally incapable of making friends. He can barely understand the concept.
And I'm probably forgetting a few minor antagonists. I know I haven't even considered what to do with, say, Lightning Dust.
The problem becomes...let's face it, some of the antagonists deserve a second chance because our local band of "heroes" make me want to face-palm.
Gilda-if we're going by your rules, Rainbow Dash needs to be whacked with a rolled-up newspaper. She had to know that you throw a griffin in a new situation, they're going to test the local chains of authority. And, the moment you throw that kind of challenge around to local "kind and innocent" Fluttershy, somepony isn't going to like it.
Trixie-her first appearance, she's heckled and shown up on her own stage by the locals. She screws up and at least tries to do something to solve it, but it's too much for her. Because her act has been lampooned, she's got to go work on a rock farm and she can't do what she wants to do. She needs to be stronger, and she's not dumb, just arrogant and thinking that the law of averages won't catch up with her.
Discord...I mostly blame it on how John DeLance plays him. We'd hate him in person, we love seeing him annoy other people. I do agree that there is some possibility of character development, but not the way he's being shown.
Chrysalis just is a monster. Brain-washing Shining Armor. Setting up Twilight Sparkle to kill Cadence. Setting up everypony to be emotion batteries. Even the excuse of "her people were starving" doesn't help when we haven't seen that she didn't do anything else other than the "farm ponies" option.
Sombra is another monster. You don't get to be much worse than stealing the will and memories of somepony to dominate over them. And, the various traps and tricks he set up...cunning, thoughtful, but evil.
Sunset Shimmer-arrogant but fragile. Without more backstory than what she is, I'm still of the opinion that she's what Twilight Sparkle would have become if she didn't have Spike. Twilight Sparkle knew she had one friend, one little dragon that would stand up for her. Sunset Shimmer didn't-she had sycophants and lackies, but not friends. She has to earn her redemption-but it's possible.
The last monster is Tirak-and a monster he is. Only the fact that this is a TV-F show doesn't show exactly what he does (he is stealing the very core of the pony, a vital portion of it's identity. You might as well just leave them as dried out husks...). And, there is no negotiating or "deals" you can make with monsters. You just have to blast them with a rainbow of weaponized love and friendship.
(And them beat them to death with your Goddamned Princess Wand.)
Well, Luna was forgiven in the premier episode. She apparently threw a temper tantrum, went mad with power, got banished to the moon for a thousand years, then blasted with rainbows and felt bad about the whole thing and hasn't done anything bad since. She kind of already "served her time" so to speak. Hard to say much beyond that; Luna is enigmatic, but we've not really seen any hint of Nightmare Moon in her since, but on the other hand, it is extremely strongly implied that she IS Nightmare Moon, and merely hasn't gone mad with power since then.
It only happened once, to be fair, and there is a great deal of incentive to forgive her... and, well, let's face it: getting banished to the moon sucks.
Really, Equestria in general seems fairly willing to forgive and forget. Discord is chaotic evil, and he still is, most likely, but he has learned the power of friendship (and boundaries) and is useful, so ponies are willing to forgive him if he actually shows good faith penance. Or at least, some ponies are. Thing is, people are only very rarely completely evil; Discord, for all his menace, never killed anyone (as far as we know, anyway); as I noted in The Butterfly's Burden, he doesn't like to break his toys. But there is some fundamental humanity to him beneath it all; he may play pretend but he actually did end up caring about Fluttershy. He isn't a complete monster. He's just... well, evil.
And, like Luna, he spent a thousand plus years in prison.
And really, Discord took over a season to "reform", and we'll see how "reformed" he actually is in season 5, or if he is just a friendly bad guy.
As for the others... meh. There's no particular reason to reform them.
Character reformation should serve the needs of the story.
Updating 7 stories wasn't enough for you, so you gotta make some big blogs too now? =P
On the topic of reformation... I'm probably a bit more on the cynical side.
While I certainly do believe that people can change for the better, I tend to dislike it a bit in fiction -- fanfiction doubly so --, mostly because it tends to be full on heel-face turns from one end of the spectrum to the other (meanwhile, I find a minor change in morality to be fair game)
At the same time though, I'm probably more lenient on what I consider to truly be evil; Gilda, Trixie, Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon are certainly antagonists, but I'd hardly call them villains. They posses -- and sometimes even represent -- vices, sure, but not to an unacceptable degree.
After all, we can't expect the best from everyone, and anyone can have a bad day, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I can give my more detailed opinion on each of the individuals(Especially DT and SS...), but only if anyone is actually interested in hearing any of it...
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It does seem to be Wall Of Text day.
As John Green is wont to say, "Imagine people complexly."
The truth, from my view point, is that no one chose to wind up the way they do. Outside forces and internal mis-wiring are the culprits more than the person being 'bad' by some default setting. Had they grown up with different parents, in a different neighborhood, or just a different time, who knows who they would have been.
You're right that not everyone wants to change, or can change, but if you aren't even willing to give them the chance? There are times when it's too dangerous to do so, abuse is one for the abused, but for us, those on the outside? If they are willing to try, I'm willing to help.
As one who's outside of general sports news, I guess you're my first source for this.
It's a strange quirk of psychology, and one I have difficulty comprehending. It's one thing for her to forgive someone, and quite another to go ahead and marry him. I suppose it is, after all, her decision, but I can't help thinking it unwise. If this is only the beginning of an abusive relationship, I won't be surprised, even if he ends up killing her. People calling themselves "Christians" are capable of performing acts just as horrific as any. Playing "Religion Freeze Tag" doesn't wash with me, and I do believe in God and His Messiah. Only time will tell if it's genuine, I suppose.
As far as fiction/fanfiction... hmm. Discord was forgiven, so... can I really say Gilda or Lightning Dust or Diamond Tiara are beyond redemption? The school bully is worse than Discord was, really? I've known people on this site to reject a fic on the very premise that Diamond Tiara develops into a friend of one or more of the CMCs, not even giving it a chance that it might be well-written, but I'm perfectly willing to enjoy it.
Now, if they manage to redeem Sombra or Tirek in canon... that's a whole other bar to leap. Maybe not so much Chrysalis... I don't seek out redemption fics for her, but I suppose if a good one were recommended to me, I'd read it...
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I may shamelessly adopt this.
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Quite aside from its accuracy (and, well, of course people are complex), that's an awful line.
Eurgh.
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One of the things coming shortly in A Mark Of Appeal is the sisters feeling that Discord would never destroy the world because it would mean there was no one left to applaud. To me, there's more than a little performer in him: he needs an audience.
Whether he can kill... that's a very long way off. But we agree that total destruction really isn't him.
As for 'chaotic evil'... *sigh* That just reminds me that someone showed me the new D&D 5.0 player's handbook. I've been trying to read it, here and there. It's been slow going. It's hard to maintain flow when it feels as if my intelligence is being insulted at least six times per page.
Cantrips are broken.
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... okay?
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I think I've found an error in the system...
I can't write the wall of text now, as it's getting pretty late here in Norway.
But by the tine i wake up tomorrow, it's no longer Wall of Text day D=
2441853 Discord's more Chaotic Meh.
In Classical Doctrine, Forgiveness is either preceded or followed by Atonement. I did something bad to you, now I'm doing something good before I can ask and be considered forgiven.
In Christian Doctrine, Forgiveness was given for free, all you need to do is accept it. (skipping about 9 billion pages of 'Yeah, but...' here)
Canon FIM is somewhat split on the doctrine. Luna was forgiven completely by Celestia, and although it is assumed that she's just unconditionally brought back into the fold, I've always pictured her as being determined to serve as Princess as her atonement for her crimes. Trixie is more on the Christian side of the scale, having not been subjected to any atonement as far as I've been able to determine. (In Monster, I have her serving as Monster's teacher as a form of voluntary atonement) Tirek is serving a sentence in Tartarus as atonement and hopefully as an educational experience (Yeah, right), so that's more Classical, while Chrysalis and Flim/Flam seek neither atonement or forgiveness, just power and money, so neither really fits here. That may be one reason we see so many Chrysalis fics where she attempts to gain forgiveness by atonement, because we have some little Classical trigger in our heads that demands punishment and absolution for our criminals before they can become 'Good.' (Why did I flash to Batman TAS at this point, I wonder?)
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Well, we'll just give you Wall Of Text 24 Hours. It's an international community: cooperation helps.
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Well, it is written for fans of 3.5.
I haven't actually read the 5th edition PHB yet; I saw the basic one, but I haven't seen the final version yet. Is it really that bad?
I think - actually I'm sure - that one of the most important aspects of forgiveness is that it extends to us on a personal level as a gift from others, and ultimately from ourselves.
I like to forgive Luna. She fell, was lost for a 1000 years in horrible solitude to the Nightmare, and was graced with redemption and a tentative forgiveness (but not ultimate trust). What I really like about her was her eagerness to be forgiven, to be loved, to give to others, and still be enough herself to fall a bit in the process into the same state that got her banished to begin with. She simply needed to see that people had the capacity not only to trust her, but the willingness to accept her for who she was.
Luna's fall and redemption is something that really resonates with us, I think: we can fail, yet show that we understand our own failings, and as long as we try to work past them instead of hurting others, we can be accepted by those outside ourselves. It doesn't mean that we have to give up who we are, but having even only a few people around us who we know believe "you're a good person, and I really like who you are" is a powerful motivator. I like to think that Luna is in that place as a person.
2441853 What's broken is needing more than one spell slot to power up your fireballs! And they showed a picture of a Dwarf without a beard! All Dwarves have beards, no exceptions! (sorry, personal bugaboo).
...Oh, and I think one of my favorite things about Equestria in general is how forgiving everyone is. I liked the 1st two episodes of MLP, but as the 2nd episode was wrapping up I assumed it had the children's cartoon black and white morality so I was about to be done with the show, and then I saw Celestia forgive Luna on the spot for going crazy and bringing about eternal darkness TWICE, and giving her back her throne. That's what made me stick around for the rest of the 1st season.
The Faith Freeze tag is used sometimes, but I think the really popular one is "I had a drinking/drugs problem." It' a much better excuse, because if you blame your problem on drinking and then go through rehab, you can claim you're cured and no longer a threat to anyone, I think most people find it easier to trust recovering alcoholics who did terrible things while "alcoholic" then people who've "found God" who did terrible things before they found God.
I don't follow football or football news. I know about Michael Sam because of all the noise surrounding his coming out press conference, which seemed fairly unnecessary as he was already openly gay and any scout that picked him out and any team that took him on would know he's gay. I know about the backlash against the coach that didn't want Sam on his team because of the press spotlight and media circus following Sam. Anyway, what I'm getting at is, outside of regular football games, isn't violent assault fairly and/or rape somewhat common among pro football players? Why is Ray Rice big news when others have done the same thing or worse?
As for ponies, I like to see redemption for villainous characters. Gilda's worst attribute is that she's a petty thief. In Trixie's first appearance she really wasn't that bad. A loudmouth, a bragger and insulting when directly challenged by RD and AJ but not altogether bad. It was Snips and Snails, with some stupid prodding from Spike, who brought the Ursa to town. In her second appearance it's clearly stated that the worst of Trixie's transgressions was caused by the alicorn amulet. Basically, Trixie and Gilda weren't outright evil just ill-tempered and bad mannered. I like to see them get some of redemption. Nightmare Moon was flat-out evil. She got as close to killing the main characters as any other villain except Tirek. One could even argue that Nightmare Moon was worse than Tirek, as she was an unexpected threat that came from within Equestria. If the highest authority of the land can unconditionally forgive the crimes of Nightmare Moon, then I see no reason why the minor villains Gilda, Trixie and even Chrysallis can't be forgiven. Now whether or not they actually accept that forgiveness is another story.
I've forgiven Prince Blueblood (He's not mentioned above by anyone else although I guess being a jerk is not quote on the same level of Chrysalis, Sombra or Discord) and this is in the Lunaverse where he's done much worse than just give Rarity a bad date (Arrange for someponies to try and mentally break Octavia, and try to gain political control of the elements) In universe about a day after the second incident.
Mostly I saw a guy who was more or less a product of his environment who needed to be shown that there actually was another way you could act apart from a self obsessed and corrupt Twit. Luna yelling at him followed by hooking up with Pinkie seemed to do that for me, for some strange reason
Here is a fascinating analysis by Whammy of "Analysis is Magic":
For Great Justice!: Retributive vs Consequentialist Justice in Equestria
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Sounds fair enough.
Though, I'm probably just gonna do this in a list format, as I lack the eloquence for anything better.
And also, lists make me happy.
When it comes to Luna/NMM, most of it as already be said. Most of her evilness came from an "external force", as detailed in the comics/season 4 premiere(though I personally believe this external force was created by her own jealousy, and that it isn't completely external, contrary to what "canon" sources might have to say).
She got better.
Gilda is hardly a villain. She was a bit of a jerk, yes, and perhaps a bit too immature/still stuck in the past. She wants to just hang out with Rainbow Dash, and everyone else is obviously not cool enough(doesn't help that Pinkie is a bit of a weirdo).
The part at the end where she snaps is very excusable. After all, if I were bombarded with so many "pranks" in such quick succession, you bet your ass I'd be angry too.
In the end though, she was still very much a jerk(especially in that scene with Fluttershy), and it was right of RD to "dump" her. However, I'd hardly call her a villain.
Oh, and I don't subscribe to the whole "culture" thing. It's a nice headcanon that leads to some nice stories, but as far as I'm concerned that isn't actually a thing, and she really is just a jerk.
Trixie is a showmare, and she has a very powerful and boast-y stage persona that has sadly seeped over to her real identity. That said, her actions were egocentric and she wasn't very nice to the hecklers, but I find both those things to be perfectly fine when you're making a performance :V
And let's not talk about "magic Duel". That was a season 3 episode. It doesn't count
Diamond Tiara's case is a long story. Honestly, I don't think I can do it justice right now. I will however give the short version: She is young&stupid, and a spoiled brat with too much power. She will always have an air of "spoiled brat"-ishness to her, though she will get better when she grows up, even if it's mostly for business-practicality reasons.
Oh, and I do think her "evilness" is blown way out of proportion by the fandom. I frequently hear phrases such as "tormenting the CMC", and "irredeemable actions" around here, which is scales beyond what she actually fits for her. She's kind of a schoolyard bully, arrogant and mean, yes, but hardly "villainous".
Also also, I consider her feud to be with Apple Bloom specifically, and the rest of the CMC merely by proxy
And then there's Silver Spoon, oh boy.
First off, everything I said about DT also goes for SS, though she's mostly antagonistic to the CMC by proxy of being best friends with DT.
And then... then we come to the topic of Silver Spoon Redemption Fics...
...
*sigh*
...
okay, so, one thing you'll notice if you're looking for a Silver Spoon centric fic, is that approximately 60%+ of it will be one sort or other of a redemption fic. In fact, she is likely the character with single most redemption fics on all of FimFiction, at least by percentage.
Now, this in itself wouldn't be too bad of a thing, aside from being a tad repetitious, if it wasn't for the fact that most of these fics fall into the category I have come to call "Spoonapology fics"
Spoonapology fics all follow the following plot:
1) Silver Spoon falls out with Diamond Tara, because:
- a) Diamond Tiara is uncharacteristically mean to her, possibly because Silver Spoon was hiding a big secret about herself from DT, and it's something that Diamond Tiara intrinsically hates(popular choices being "I am actually gay" and "I actually don't have a Cutie Mark")
- b) She has a spontaneous realization of just how horrible her actions have been, and how horrible of a pony DT is.
- b) She never was a friend with Diamond Tiara really, she just did it out of admiration and/or fear.
2) She becomes best friends with the CMC, because:
- a) They are the paragons of morality, and cannot do no wrong.
- b) in the case of 1a, she falls in love with a CMC member(read:SB), joins them in looking for Cutie Marks, or etc.
optional 2.5)Diamond Tiara gets "justiced"
3) She lives happily ever after, while Diamond Tiara has a (deservedly) miserable time.
(for reference, I would be equally annoyed by "Tiarapology" fics, that are the same but with DT and SS switched about. It's just that -- for some reason -- this particular story is confoundedly common for Silver Spoon...)
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I think you kind of touched upon why: A common interpretation I've seen, with like one inversion, is that Diamond Tiara is the "leader" of the two; Silver Spoon, in this interpretation, quite possibly wouldn't be mean on her own, so if she came to her realization, she'd have to leave the pair; she wouldn't be able to bring DT along with her no matter how much she pleaded.
If it's DT who comes to a realization, however, SS is more likely to come along, I'd guess. I may just be basing this on Accidentally On Purpose, however.
Whee, lets go. Though I have tendency to offer forgiveness without excuses, and try to retain as much as the character as I can manage.
Luna/Nightmare Moon- It isn't just an outside force. Discord and Sombra might be involved, but the only thing for sure is she went outright nuts to the point she decided to change her name. Then the elements fixed her. They did such a number on her brain she has some memory gaps and confusion, including that whole old timey speech thing.
Trixie- She has a huge ego, but isn't bad at all otherwise. Also because she ends up Luna's student she's less tempted to do something rash. The only interaction she has with the alicorn amulet is to find it and lock it away since it's dangerous.
Sunset Shimmer- A bit odd. See I had a story I was planning once I heard about the blurb and that it meant nothing. Then we got canon Sunset. So now I've sort of merged my original idea with canon Sunset and completely changed her backstory, but at the same time kept her a jerk, even doing some objectionable things during high school, though not demonic powered takeover of Equestira bad. In fact based on what I've seen in the clips it's bizarrely similar to the canon character arc.
Gilda- A careless spoiled brat, but not really malicious. At no point did she actually consider knocking Pinkie out of the sky could cause serious injury. Oddly she seemed to be right.
Chrysalis- it depends on your definition of evil. She doesn't like killing, but that might just be because like she says, it's a waste of resources. The real point is she lies so much it's hard to tell how genuine she is. Also she really does care about at least her own people, even if nothing else.
Discord- I changed the way and time it takes to reform him, but in the end it's about the same. He does have a tragic backstory, but it isn't tragic for him. There is an issue that he doesn't entirely understand the way the world really works, which would make sense really, but it's not really meant for an excuse, or if it is it's one for Fluttershy to explain his actions. He never uses it himself.
Lightning Dust- Like Gilda doesn't understand the consequences of her actions, but she's downright delusional about it. Being Equestria it's only logical she get help for that.
Sombra- I made him more evil if anything.
Tirek- Still very evil yes.
Flim and Flam- they're greedy beyond all else, but otherwise not too bad.
Garble- Worse again.
Diamond dogs- Not that terrible really, but essentially, they're too stupid to be nice.
Tiara and Spoon- They're cardboard cutouts with no character development to speak of. Even the diamond dogs have more depth. I use them in the role they're designed for and that's about it. So really, no better or worse.
Angel- He really does have a soft spot for Fluttershy, and anything negative he does to her is not really intentional. The trick is that's because he's a huge jerk and treats everyone like that on habit, since it's odd for him to actually care. This means he's worse than quite a few of the others on this list because he is fully aware of what he's doing and does not feel there is a need to apologize for any of it.