Geocentric Earth Theists and Atheists · 5:35pm Dec 15th, 2013
(Wherein, having tackled Sex, I will now discuss something much less controversial) ;-)
So I was thinking about the issue of religion in Equestria, and beyond it on the whole planet.
There is a concept in TV Tropes called the "Flat Earth Atheist," whose article points out:
Atheism in a clockwork universe ostensibly overseen by a completely non-interventionist divinity is one thing, but what about a world that's practically the playground of the mythic forces that created it?
This is more than a little bit relevant to the Ponyverse, as this "a world that's practically the playground" of various kinds of mythic forces. The realm in which all the major character live, Equestria, is ruled by a Physical Goddess who moves the Sun and Moon around. And she's not at all distant: you could have an audience with her, or for that matter run into her when she was out getting some coffee and doughnuts. Claiming that Celestia doesn't exist would be on a par with claiming that, say, Barack Obama or George W. Bush didn't exist, except that she's in many ways more accessible!
Now, one might object that Celestia never calls herself a "goddess." Nor does she encourage her own worship (whether or not she permits it is a matter of speculation, though it would be difficult for her to effectively forbid such an action, and the attempt would indeed put her in the absurd position of trying to forcibly suppress her own admirers). I think it's safe to say that she "discourages" it, mostly by using her great influence over Equestrian culture
And there are obvious limitations to doing this: for instance, if a voluntary organization formed with the avowed intention of practicing and promulgating behavior Celestia considered virtuous, why (and how) would she oppose this?
"We are the Brothers and Sisters of Kindness, and we say that all should try to be kind, like Celestia."
"No! Kindness is not for little ponies! Only I can be kind! Be cruel to each other!"
This would rather swiftly reach Pythonesque levels of absurdity, and I think Celestia's way too wise to even make the attempt. Even if she wanted to do so, which she probably wouldn't.
We've seen no organized religion in Equestria. There's almost certainly no compulsory religion (Celestia doesn't want to be worshiped), but there are almost certainly organizations, cults and rituals centered around Celestia and similar demi-divinities. We've seen three examples of what amount to semi-religious holidays in-canon (The Summer Sun Celebration, Hearts Warming Eve and Nightmare Night, with the first two being serious and patriotic, and the third more or less silly, at least until Luna returned), and there are probably more It would be only natural.
[The Running of the Leaves and Winter Wrap-Up appear to be more in the nature of ceremonialized versions of civic duties].
The fact remains that Celestia controls the motions of the heavenly bodies (now again with Luna's assistance) which is a fairly blatant power. What's more, it's been known in canon to fail (when Celestia is sufficiently challenged or incapacitated by rival entities), so even the proverbial "pony in the street" is well aware of her importance in this regard. It's kind of hard not to notice the existence of the Sun.
Celestia chooses to be nice about it, because that's who she is, but given her raw power, social skills, and immortality (the last allowing her to engage in social engineering on a nation-wide scale if she so wishes), if she instead decreed that step pyramids be built in every city in the land and appropriate numbers of virgins sacrificed upon them during the Summer Sun Festival to appease her hunger for innocent pony blood and keep the Sun on schedule, so it would be done. Sure, if she decreed this tomorrow, many ponies would conclude she'd gone mad and probably try to organize some sort of revolt, but if she slowly changed the culture toward this, over centuries?
"Cutie Mark Crusaders, tribute maidens!"
[Oh, you laugh? Ever stop to think just what Equestrian word or phrase is being translated as "crusaders" in the first place?]
Hey, if Nightmare Moon had won a thousand years ago, many of the tiny minority of Ponies who managed to survive living in caves and eating fungus would almost certainly have worshipped her. And even if she had only started off being angry at Celestia, I think in time her corruption would have reached the point that active pony sacrifice would have suited her just fine.
Now, the observant might have noticed that Celestia is most definitely not God in the philosophical sense of the word. She is neither omniscient nor omnipotent (she in-canon makes mistakes and has been defeated by enemies); while she's mostly a good pony, I very much doubt she's omnibenevolent; and she's not truly eternal: her existence at least in this incarnation is probably bound by birth and death, even though she seems to be able to live forever, and with full vigor, until actively killed by some stronger force. In her limitations, she is more like one of the Classical Greco-Roman deities than she is like monotheist concepts of divinity.
This is true. And it is also possible that the Ponyverse also has what we would think of as a true God or gods, far more powerful than Celestia or Luna. But one can't get past the fact that, in-canon, the Head of State of Equestria is one and the same as the entity who makes the Sun rise and set. Which makes Equestria, in the most literal possible sense, a "theocracy" -- its supreme ruler is a goddess. In fact it's much more of a "theocracy" than was, say, Zwingli's Zurich or is today's Iran -- Celestia is right there, giving orders and considering petitions, rather than having her desires interpreted by elite theologians. (To further confuse things, Equestria also has aristocratic, oligarchic, and democratic elements in its constitution, which may or may not have ever been written down).
Celestia's power is obviously as potentially absolute as she desires, with the obvious possibility for absolute power to corrupt absolutely (which is why people write Tyrant!Celestia fanfics). This conversely shows why Celestia goes out of her way to be kind, tolerant and as informal as she can get away with in any given situation without being seen as insulting her own subjects. Celestia is probably well aware of the temptations inherent in her role, and doesn't want to become a mad Evil Overlord lounging on a pile of treasure while her desperate subjects toil in the frosting mines to keep her supplied with cake.
And of course the temptations of undue familiarity could also be bad: I can express the problem in a single word. "Molestia."
How to avoid these? Celestia walks a tightrope between corrupting herself, and Pony culture in general, by being worshiped as a Goddess on the one forehoof, and becoming despised as a weak-willed hedonist by opening herself up to political manipulation by her favorites, on the other one. She has to walk this line every day, in all but her most private activities, and even in the public manifestations of those. Oh, and she also has to beware not to believe her own reputation: that's how she wound up alienating Princess Luna over a millennium ago, and we know how that turned out.
Do you wonder if she occasionally abuses her power? You should be amazed that she doesn't do it more often. Less power than Celestia possesses has produced many mad tyrants in human history.
This makes me wonder about the issue of Equestria at war. First of all, having a Physical Goddess as one's ruler must exert a strong deterrent effect on many enemies. While it's true that moving the Sun itself is a bit too unwieldy and general in its effects to be used lightly, an aggressor would have to worry that if he somehow destroyed Celestia, he'd also then have to somehow figure out how to move it. Celestia in canon can channel her energy into powerful magical bolts (hot plasma?) and it is plausible to assume that she could release much more powerful bursts of energy in an emergency (if true making her a potential Person of Mass Destruction and a literal Fantastic Nuke). Add to this that she can fly, telekinese teleport long distances and has had millennia to study magics, and I can see why Powers wouldn't want to attack Equestria. (This in turn makes the general niceness and peacefulness of the Ponies more plausible: they have a powerful protector).
Secondly, many nations in our world have gone to war crying "God wills it!" (Deus veult, Insh'allah, etc.) on no evidence other than the preachings of mortals. How would it affect morale if a Goddess (or two, or several) were really, undeniably on your side, delivering inspirational speeches and sometimes interfering directly in the fight? This cuts both ways, though -- what happens if one's goddess is defeated? (as Chrysalis did to Celestia, and then Cadence did to Chysalis)? [Incidentally, a powerful Changeling Queen is probably more or less a Physical Goddess to her Swarm].
Do all major military match-ups work this way? Is each Great Power on Equestria's Earth ruled or protected by some kind of Physical God, and is having such a being the essence of Great-Power status on Equestria? Or is Equestria uniquely favored in this regard?
What does this do to politics? If Celestia supports or opposes something, how does this affect the possiblity of a Loyal Opposition? And without even a loyal opposition, Celestia would be in danger of making massive mistakes while having enthusiastic crowds of ponies all telling her that her new clothes were absolutely magnificent. One very good and even selfish reason for Celestia to favor freedom of speech, and possibly even a parliamentary form of monarchy, would be that Celestia wants to make sure that she gets warnings of her own policy errors.
With physical goddesses, what happens to rationalism, or even atheism? Twilight Sparkle is in-canon very much a rationalist, though she knows four godlike beings personally: she is the former student of Celestia, the new friend of Luna, counts Cadence as her ex-foalsitter, and has both battled and peacefully-conversed with Discord. She deeply loves and has overwhelming respect for Celestia, and is also aware that Celestia is not infallible. We do not know her opinions regarding the possibility of omniscient, omnipotent deities more powerful than Celestia. (She is also herself in the process of apotheosis, which adds yet another layer of complexity to the question). Of the main characters, Twilight Sparkle is the closest to a "philosopher," especially in the Classical and Medieval meaning of the term (which also meant what we would now call "scholar," "scientist" and "mage."
Since this is My Little Pony and not My Little Philosopher or My Little Theologian, we have no idea how Pony intellectuals conceive of the proper relationship between their own kind and the Divine. For what it's worth, Celestia tries to influence others to treat her as just an exceptionally large and important pony, while the common ponies (even the Canterlot elite) tend to treat her with instinctive awe.
The show is even less likely to get into religious questions than it is into sexual ones, because any such thing would be even more controversial. Still, due to the nature of the characters and plots, it can't entirely avoid them, at least by implication.
I can't decide if people like you (who link tv tropes and may set me off on an hour tangent on that site) are my most or least favorite...
When I first discovered TV Tropes I was addicted to the site. I've probably read every one of its more general entries at least once, and most of the content regarding any fiction I like.
There is one more religious moment to consider: the funeral in "Hearts and Hooves Day," briefly glimpsed and immediately blasphemed. Note Mr. Waddle's collar and the book he's reading. Make of it what you will.
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Yes ... I figure they have to have some religion (and also note that Shining and Cadance were getting married in what looked like a church) and probably one we would find congenial from a humane-Christian perspective). I like to think that they are some sort of Deists worshiping a Creative principle, formally-speaking, with all sorts of vulgar superstitions including worship of Celestia herself.
Food for thought: what about "before Celestia"?
We can suppose there was a time when Celestia and Luna either weren't there or weren't known: the time shown in the Hearth's Warming Eve play. There likely weren't any Celestia-centric religions back then.
Did the three pony tribes have any religion at all? I'd guess they did; religion is a way to deal with the unknown, and even though the unicorns had magic and moved the sun and the moon, there were things beyond their magic (the Windigos are an obvious example).
What form did their religion(s) take? Of that, I have no idea, and I don't think enough is visible in the show for us to tell. But whatever it was, there are probably elements of these older religions left over in Equestria's current religion(s).
I have thought that Twilight Sparkle probably does not fully grasp the distinction between authority and truth. What Celestia says just is true, and what she does just is right. Perhaps this reasoning would apply to other ponies as well besides Twilight. Which makes me think that Equestrian moral theory is probably based on moral exemplarism.
Princess Lauren Faust wanted the 2 Royal PonySisters to be living Goddesses with these qualities:
* Immortal
* Very Powerful
* Indestructible
Only grater gods could overpower her. These are the greater gods listed by power:
0. The Elements Of Harmony
1. Discord
2. The 2 Royal PonySisters
In Season # 02, Hasbro removed the indestructibility of the 2 Royal PonySisters for dumb PlotConvenience in S02E26 “A CanterLotWedding Part # Ⅱ”. I miss the indestructible Goddesses because it means that something might kill the Princesses. With no entity capable of controlling the Sun and moon, at best Equus would have feral celestial objects like in FallOut: Equestria with widely varying day-lengths, or worst, it could end up with frozen celestial bodies like in the Frozen West with most of Equus rendered uninhabitable.
The Frozen West
1 of the last things Princess Lauren Faust gave us is the origin of the Geocentric Universe of Equus:
Q got bored and created the Geocentric Universe of Equus for amusement and then incarnated himself into it as Discord.
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One advantage Equestria has had in developing a moral code is that they have the leadership of Princess Celestia, who is reasonable, virtuous and popular. One disadvntage they have had in developing a theory of ethics is that very same leadership, because when what the Ruling Princess says is so often completely right, one tends to just assume that "good" is "whatever she says."
I suspect that Princess Celestia is fully intelligent and wise enough to realize that this has happened, and the problems this creates in terms of the lack of development of the ability of her subjects to think for themselves. Once, this must have been very useful to her (specifically when she was unifying Equestria) -- now, it may be an obstacle to further progress.
Princess Twilight Sparkle is a lot smarter than most Ponies. On the other hand, she also knows and loves Princess Celestia a lot more personally than most Ponies, and was half-raised by her almost as her daughter -- so she may be even more vulnerable to Celestia's charms -- despite Twilight's intelligence.
Part of the reason why Celestia is so charming is that she's not faking it: Celestia really is that good a Pony. Not perfect, as some Ponies imagine -- but very, very good indeed.
Actually, Ponies DO worship Celestia. Remember Fluttershy's offering to Celestia and even Nightmare Moon has her own image and receives offerings.