Goodbye Sunny Stalliongrad · 1:19pm Nov 29th, 2013
If you could undo a mistake, would you? What if it was a really bad mistake? What if it was one where innocent people got hurt? How about if you could go back and somehow change somebody else's mistake? Would you rob them of the choice and the lessons that come with it to prevent the harmful consequences? Even if the seeds the lead to that mistake were already planted, you couldn't be sure that the person wouldn't just make the same mistake again, and that the outcome could actually make things worse? Even if you had the ability, would you have the right?
At what point does it become too risky to try to do the right thing? If trying to help can do even more harm, is it ever right not to try? What if helping someone puts others in danger?
How gilded must a cage be to be worth throwing away freedom? If you know the heavenly dream is false, but those who share it with you are real, is that enough? Or would you strive to free yourself from the illusion? If the reality that awaits is cold, hard and miserable, would you try to wake the others, or leave them to their dream?
Welcome to Stalliongrad!
background image by WhiteDiamondsLtd, logo by Lightning5trike
This week marked the end of my seventy-week-long FoE: Stalliongrad campaign, a locally-ran game that rigorously playtested the tabletop rules for the Fallout: Equestria RPG. It was an amazing game with some awesome players. FoE: Stalliongrad was a tale of the rise of Stalliongrad in the Equestrian Wasteland from a ruins filled with dangerous monsters, warring factions and struggling, isolated pockets of ponykind to a center of civilization and sanctuary that would be much needed in the brutal years immediately following Sunshine & Rainbows. (Towards then end of the game, the PCs even got to participate in the Battle for Fillydelphia -- their mission: to swoop into the warzone and rescue the children in Red Eye's school!)
"Sunny Stalliongrad" was the name given to a Stalliongrad in an Equestria where the megaspells never fell -- where C.A.R.E. had worked, forcing both sides to find a diplomatic resolution. This was a shared dreamworld, one that the player characters found themselves trapped in... and unsure if they wanted to escape. Imagine Tranquility Lane re-envisioned as a benevolent shared dream -- the sleepers in reality held in suspended animation in a hive of changeling pods, their false reality overseen by a changeling queen.
The campaign ended with the defeat of King Castling, the Steel Ranger elder who had undergone a Nightmare Moon-style transformation, clad in starmetal-plated power armor, and the establishment of a new order in Stalliongrad, including a peaceful arrangement with the Enclave. For the epilogue, Discord offered a chance to go back and change the past in such a way that the world presented in Sunny Stalliongrad was a probable outcome. The characters could throw away all the effort and sacrifices, both their own and those of so many others who had brought both Stalliongrad and the Equestrian Wasteland as a whole to the edge of a brighter future, for a chance to save everyone in the past and prevent all the destruction and horror that had followed. Of course, there were no guarantees. Changing one moment in the past might simply create an alternate timeline, or do nothing, or lead to all new and different destruction and horror... or even cause all of time to collapse from paradox into a state of primordial chaos. But there was a fair chance they could make the dreamworld come true.
What would you chose?
Probably to bitchslap Discord for trying to use to false allure of magical time travel to get others to do his bidding. Then I'd point them to Doc Brown from Back to the Future and tell them to speak to him about time lines and paradoxes. Then take them to far future earth for immortali-shakes and god-making pancakes.
Probably not; too many variables to have any faith in it working, really. Interesting food for thought, nevertheless.
I would have refused Discord's offer, playing with time only brings a greater demise. You can't undo the past, but you can shape the future.
By the way, changing the past would be denying all the work, sweat, blood and sacrifices the ponies of today would have given away to change everything. It would be denying their will, and "heroicness".
One must not play with Time, because Time is always the one who wins.
Last time someone took Discord up on that offer, they ended up an ensign on the very ship they used to command. So, even if he's not being a malevolent god of chaos, that offer is probably a trick (but saying yes then begging him to change it back could provide valuable lessons about friendship and magic).
I'd have gone back if, and only if, I had a solid-but-modifiable plan with which to go by; it wouldn't last very long before time-branching blew it to shreds (hence the need for it to be modifiable), but it would give a starting point on a mission which otherwise would be noble but unlikely to work out.
It already happened and escaping back to the past is only running awayfrom the problem.
Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. So what good would undoing the ultimate mistake be? It may postpone the inevitable but for how long? When will weapons more lethal then the balefire bombs be built? When will a rodent deadlier then pink could be made? You can never fully undo the pasts mistakes and to try to change it all may just make it worse. So no I wouldn't take Discord up on that offer.
I'd leave everything as is, and do everything that I could to kill Discord. (What? The dick has it coming. After all, where was he during the final hours?) Besides, if there's one thing I've learned from Doctor Who, sometimes it's best to leave the dead to their rest rather than risk a parabolic universal collapse. Also, what the guy below me said.
No thanks. Discord not only cheats, he believes he's entitled to as the Lord of Chaos. Any game with him is guaranteed to be as rigged as any Xanatos Gambit.
Absolutely not. The risks are too great, and even in the best case, those who make the choice would never know the reward. I admit that second one is a selfish reason, but after all they achieved, I think they have the right to be a bit selfish. Better to use Sunny Stalliongrad as a goal to aim for through their own efforts than to try and cheat history and themselves.
Dang... that sounds so epic.
No way it's not worth the risk. Better to be in the current state. I mean with the griffins & zebras joined in the NCR with the ponies the world is more united than before the war.
For as many obvious evils as the wasteland holds, there was as many hidden evils of the old world.
For as many obvious moments of joy, happiness and bliss in the old world, there are as many hidden moments of such in this new wasteland.
Thus, no. Our fate is one we should never dwell upon for changing what we had done but rather to learn and grow to see what we will do.
As appealing as stopping the apocalypse may seem, it must not be done. It was a blessing in disguise--the reset button for ponykind. It put an end to war based on race and appearance, and threw everypony together into the mess that was the wasteland as one--as equals. It was only time for Equestria, and if you try and stop it the first time, it's going to happen again later.
I've always had this philosophy. Morale, friendship, loyalty--it was dying. When faced with survival, one must come around to those ways, or die.
The Fallout was for the better.
I see Rarity in the background of the picture! *squee*
So... Are you asking us because we'll never get to play that campaign, or because you wanted a food-for-thought debate, figuring most people won't be playing the tabletop once it's released, or something else?
The chance to save everyone, to prevent all of the deaths, to make the world a better place, it all sounds perfect...But I would still refuse Discord. I don't trust him and I don't trust messing with the timeline. Besides, he forgot to mention the small fact that if we change everything, then we end up killing the countless people of this timeline...No, worse, we end up wiping them from existance! I refuse, because I know what type of monster I'm dealng with.
and that is what I would say if I was in the rp
So, Metro 2033 is Fallout: Equestria canon? Neat. I've long had a theory those two games were set in the same universe, Seeing as how they're as far away as you can get from each other, geographically speaking.
hi hi
I don't think that Discord is trustworthy enough to make the offer, so on those grounds alone, it would probably not be a good idea to try messing with time. Still, I feel like that answer is sort of a cop out.
Once causality starts to break down, everything (morality included) starts to get significantly more complicated. And to make matters worse, it all depends on how the time travel actually works. So without being able to make an informed decision, it is still as bad an idea as it is to press random buttons on the control console for a nuclear reactor and hope that you are lucky enough to do something good. As a gambling wager, the risks oscillate between infinitely good and infinitely bad, which really cancel each other out, leaving you only with the probabilities to make the decision by. (Which the characters don't know.)
And yet, that still seems like a cop out.
If someone were to make a purely Utilitarian argument, then perhaps they would say that the larger number of living ponies and zebras deserved more attention then the scattered few survivors. However, I've found that pure Utilitarianism tends to run into significant moral problems, like the justifications for slavery that Red Eye so callously promoted. (They're not hard flaws to see.)
If you could bring back everyone alive in the wasteland to the past, then it would be something to seriously consider as a good thing. But if you're going to end up killing everyone in the present to save those in the past, then its clearly a bad deal. While Utility is a good starting point for moral decision making, it is important to accept that everyone also has agency, that they have innate personal worth and rights. So to kill a few in order to save a great many might seem like a valid equation, if the few don't agree to it, if they are treated as unwilling objects to be used in whatever manner is convenient, then its still wrong. (To say nothing of how treating individuals as objects and undercutting their inherent value makes the Utilitarian equations devoid of value as well.)
So in the end, I think I would need to decline.
However, I do feel compelled to say one thing, on the topic of "learning from mistakes." I hear this a lot, that people need to learn from their mistakes. It is true that mistakes are often very memorable, but when you look at the statistics, they are actually not a very good method of learning. First of all, it is entirely possible, and in many cases probable, that someone will end up learning the wrong lesson from their mistakes. I can't count how many people I know who have learned to give up and never try again, after suffering their first failure. (For example.) In fact, a great many of the world's problems are caused by people learning the wrong lessons from mistakes, like a country who fails at preventing a war but wins the conflict, then decides that the lesson to learn is, "might makes right."
Learning by example is one of the very best ways to learn, and studies have shown that people do learn those lessons well. Learning through practice is another one of the very best ways to learn. Careful study and testing can reveal mistakes before they are made.
I've played games with a similar choice. I always thought moving on was better than resetting. The people of the past will make the same mistakes and start the war again, I can feel it.
*death by oversquee
* Kkhat. You've done it again with your vast ability to tell a story even through its just you kinda recaping an RP. I find it Quite appropriate about you talking about the RPG because you go quite in depth with Fallout Equestria with many parts in the original Fallout games that many may have overlooked or just not known about. I also must thank you for getting me back into the great wastelands of California, Washington, The Mojave, and Texas. (Fallout 1, 3, New Vegas and Tactics for those whom don't know what I'm talking about). I hope that you continue to flesh out the already mega fleshy Equestrian wasteland... Also a question for Kkhat. Did you ever consider Little Horn to ever be encountered by Little-Pip?
Sounded like a pretty awesome game. Hmm, the whole question Discord brings up with messing with time is really one with no clear cut right answer to it. Let's pretend, for argument's sake, that Discord is completely on the level, and he can alter time with no backlash or consequence other than the time line changes as described, granted with no guarantee that things will turn out differently than they have, but with a high likelihood that the devastating end to the war that occurred could be avoided...
...Personally I'd probably end up taking the deal, knowing full well I'm sacrificing two hundred years worth of blood, toil, and struggle. My reasoning? Nothing deep nor particularly ground-breaking; I merely consider that two centuries of peace, cooperation, and mutual understanding will do the world more good than two centuries of violence, suffering, and insanity.
There's way too many ways the moral argument could go either way. Either decision, taking Discords offer or not, results in millions of lives lost, while millions of others are gained. There is no argument that makes either decision seem all that great. However, if I was a person in that situation, and given that offer, my impulse would be to accept. Partially because I like the idea of telling Time to piss off and go suck an egg, and how often do you really get a chance to do something as insane as alter the course of history?
What would a hero truly do?
That is for you to decide...
Let us know when all the rules, maps, and tokens are available. I think I might use my livestream account and stream this shit. Would make for a pretty epic adventure.
I'd leave it. Things are just starting to brighten up, with the sun coming up. Besides, even if everything worked out, ponykind would never have learned the lessons it gained from the existence of the Equestrian Wasteland. Eventually there would be another disaster and there's no telling how destructive that one would become.
1554981 The rules are already available. This is a tabletop RPG, so it isn't going to come with maps or tokens. GMs often create their own maps (as I did with Stalliongrad above) for their campaign setting.
Tell me, Kkat...
...Have you ever played Braid?
1555283
Awesome that it's available.
I was thinking about using maptools or something to get a twitch game going. I've got some reading to do.
Hopefully the ponies didn't get surrounded and starved/ freezed to death due to the Russian winter
This... This reminds me a lot of Braid. (Note that I'm quoting from memory so I might paraphrase something, especially to create a RP-like introduction):
You are off on a search to rescue the Princess. She has been snatched by a horrible and evil monster. This happened because you made a mistake. You made many mistakes during the time you spent together, all those years ago. Memories of it have become muddled, replaced wholesale, but one remains clear: the Princess turning sharply away, her braid lashing at you in contempt.
You know she tried to be forgiving, but who can forgive a guilty lie, a stab in the back? Such a mistake would change a relationship irreversibly.
By forgiving too readily, we can be badly hurt.
But what if our world worked differently? Suppose we could say, "I didn't mean what I just said!" and she would say, "It's okay. I understand." - and life would proceed as if it had never happened. We could remove the damage but still be wiser for the experience.
But soon you come to realise that her benevolence has circumscribed you, and your achievement cannot reach beyond the map she has drawn. You need the edge of trascendence. You need, sometimes, to be immune to her caring touch.
Off in the distance, you see a castle where the flags flutter even when the wind has expired and the bread in the kitchen is always warm.
A little bit of magic.
Very very similar to the Discord dilemma, no?
Oh Discord you silly manipulator. you forgot to tell them that this could happen.
1555283
Out of curiosity, will there be some kind of encounters list, monster manual, or something akin to the Monster Vault release, or is such a thing still at a GM's discretion as things progress?
Additionally, something I want to clarify is damage types. I know you're utilizing a modified called-shot rules, but something I'm wondering is do you use the typical damage types: slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing? Like using a club to smash a skeleton would do full damage and a slashing weapon (scimitar) would do half damage.
I'm looking into Twitch, maptools, am currently pillaging opensource maps. I REALLY want to get a game going.
1559320
The second tab on the perks chart is a traits/perks list for monsters which explains how monster design. This allows GMs to create versions of monsters tailored to the PCs level. There are a few example monsters at the bottom of the chart.
I created several new monster types for the Equestrian Wasteland for the Stalliongrad game.
Weapons and ammo have special qualities. And monsters can be given the "exotic body" perk to be particularly difficult to hurt with weapons of a particular type or with a particular quality. A GM can specify "bladed weapons" as a weapon type for exotic body, even if there isn't a bludgeoning/slashing/piercing categorization. (We assume players and GMs know that a sword is a bladed weapon and a sledgehammer is not, although unarmed weapons which are bladed have an Unarmed (Bladed) special quality because there is a perk that keys off of it.)
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You would be surprised how many players forget things like weapon types. I saw a party almost get TPKed by level one zombies, simply because no one remembered to buy a slashing weapon and the two that had them didn't bring them out until the last legs of the fight. And the dice were fiendishly in the zombies' favor. I am a firm believer that players should not know the exact hit points of each monster, so rolling damage may not be the actual received damage.
And last question for now. Any plans on adding flanking bonuses? I've been looking through perks and there is a fair amount of material for stealth attacks and kills. Traditionally such a thing is only about a +2 on to hit rolls, but I've been thinking about incorporating such a thing for those more inclined to be thieves or dirtbags like myself that like stabbing people in the back.
I've not much to to add, but I would go with the general consensus and reject Discord's offer. You can at least learn from the past if you choose to. But you can't learn anything if it never happened. It's too much of a risk to change what happened. They could never contrast what they had with what they got.
Anyway, is there a log archive for this game or was it a RL game? Cuz it sounds like it would be interesting to read.
1560656
We've taken effort to not create a D&D-style game, and are avoiding similar mechanics. While there are stealthy attacks, weapons with longer reach, and situational modifiers, there are no grid-focused rules like "facing", "flanking" or "attacks of opportunity". You can play the game using a battlemap if you want to, but it is designed for more cerebral play, and rules are written with text-based IRC players in mind as well as IRL groups. Fights in this game are fast, furious and lethal.
1561736
This was an IRL game, so unfortunately there are no logs. However, my "Fallout: Beyond Equestria" campaign is run on IRC and thus has logs available (as you can see from the Crystal Empire blog posts).
If you could undo a mistake, would you?
Depends. If it's super easypeasy to undo like ctrl+z while digital-sketching easy, then why not? My only loss then is time.
What if it was a really bad mistake?
It's more likely, of course. Sorta depends on the mistake.
What if it was one where innocent people got hurt?
Sure, why not?
How about if you could go back and somehow change somebody else's mistake?
Egocentric Response: Depends on how much I would benefit from the change.
Would you rob them of the choice and the lessons that come with it to prevent the harmful consequences?
Again, depends on how much I benefit. But probably. We prevent others from making all sorts of choices all the time in life as it is.
Even if the seeds the lead to that mistake were already planted, you couldn't be sure that the person wouldn't just make the same mistake again, and that the outcome could actually make things worse?
At that point, it's more of a blind gamble. And I'm not a very strong gambler.
Even if you had the ability, would you have the right?
Probably not, but who would enforce such rights?
At what point does it become too risky to try to do the right thing?
When probability favors the negative outcome.
If trying to help can do even more harm, is it ever right not to try? What if helping someone puts others in danger?
I think the decision on whether or not to try should be left up to the individual in that case, but it doesn't lend well to a discrete answer. And yes, helping one person might often jeapordize others. Especially in times of war or the Equestrian Wastes. Just do the best to make a guess at the value of the lives being exchanged, I suppose.
How gilded must a cage be to be worth throwing away freedom?
If the freedoms remaining are fulfilling within the cage, then that should be enough. Maybe.
If you know the heavenly dream is false, but those who share it with you are real, is that enough?
Wait, what dream? But sure, I guess.
Or would you strive to free yourself from the illusion?
Nope. Not unless there's some obvious benefit in leaving it. Whatever the illusion is may not be real, but it is pleasing and there are friends to spend it with. Isn't that enough?
If the reality that awaits is cold, hard and miserable, would you try to wake the others, or leave them to their dream?
Given my prior answer, definitely not.
"What would you chose?"
With regards to the Discord scenario? "[...]Cause all of time to collapse from paradox into a state of primordial chaos."
^- Uh, no thanks. I kinda like existing, mortal or no.
1561829 Alright, thanks.
I'll have to give that a read.
im not gonna lie to any of you, or myself
I would play the magic out of this game
1571230
I am currently creating a campaign and setting. Keep your fingers crossed. I've already created four maps.
Can I please, please, please, PLEASE get the DM guides and rule books for this? I have some friends who want to play an FoE Table Top, and I need a good place to start.
1594081
The rules for the game are available here.
I am terribly late in reading this, but its an interesting question...and honestly reminds me of the one presented in Bastion.
A man-made apocalypse destroyed most of civilization on the continent, and in the end you must choose between restoring the world exactly as it was before the apocalypse with no gaurantee that it wouldn't happen again, or abandoning the continent with two other survivors.
Given that the question involves time travel I would like time too think it through...but that way out seems too uncertain, and too good to be true.
I'd be worried that something would go wrong, and every bit of progress that was fought for would vanish.
1598334
Thank you! One problem though, no bestiary. Do you guys have a monster/enemy list?
1724913
Second tab in the perks document is monster design, allowing GMs to create monsters tailored to their campaign and group level.
The page includes a few example monsters at the bottom.
1726153
Thank you, Great One! Kkat is best pony!
How did the group in the game decided? By reading these comments I would guess that they refused the offer.
At first I thought choosing to refuse would be better. It is safer alternative, that's for sure. But I was thinking, accepting it might actually mean that millions of ponies might be spared. It would be ultimate sacrifice to give up all that has been done. But for the chance that it wouldn't be needed. If it succeeded and there would be peace resolution, the ponykind might still learn the lesson. If it wouldn't work, well, things cannot go much worse than it already did. So maybe if there is a chance, isn't it worth the risk? (Assuming that Discord can be trusted.)
1598334 Oh my gosh! These are so much better than the FoE ruleset being sold by Dead Tree Studios! Ack, if only I knew you made a PnP ruleset before I gave those guys 25 dollars ><