i'm sorry you feel the way you do. its not just for everyone i guess

As much as part of me wants to agree with you, there's another part that doesn't.

Is the show dead to me? Absolutely not, it may be stricken with an incurable disease, but to me that motivates me to work even harder to take up the slack and show that Equestria still holds that spark which brought me to it half a year ago. And I realize that fans shouldn't have to cover for the writer's inadequecies and shortcomings, but to me this show and this fandom are worth it. /rant

However, I will agree with the fact that a lot about this episode utterly fell flat on it's face and into the basement.

I had a feeling you would not like this season finally. I'm afraid I must greatly disagree with your reasoning. But I do not want to start an argument with you. So I'll leave you to your feelings. I will be making a blog post about my own thoughts on the season Finale. However, my views of it greatly clash with your own. You may not want to read them.

I'm sorry, but I disagree entirely. The myth at the beginning of the series is just that. A myth. I don't recall them saying anywhere that Celestia/Luna had those cosmic abilities, aside from raising the sun and moon, which from the Hearth's Warming Eve episode was shown to be done by unicorns in the past before Celestia/Luna showed. This brings up two points: First is that they didn't create the world of Equestria, second being that the only significant part of them raising the sun and moon is that they can do it on their own. It's like being able to run the backstage machinations of a rock concert by one's self.

I see the existance of Alicorns as an exceedingly rare hybrid of the races that possesses more power than any one pony. The only reason that Celestia and Luna stand out is because they used the Elements of Harmony on Discord. Some side effect of the elements may have granted them an illusion of immortality, but I don't think it's that far of a leap to assume there are other alicorns out there.

If you feel the magic of the original show is gone, I'm sorry you feel that way.

I, on the other hand, embrace a more dynamic world than just a flat style. I like the diversity between the cities and the towns. I like there being actual conflict. I like that Celestia and Luna aren't literal goddesses. It makes the story more interesting and engaging.

...

Pffffft.

That's the largest load of shit since I burned a 50 gallon barrel of the stuff that I've ever seen. Lauren Faust is good, but you are giving her FAR too much credit. Don't get me wrong, she saved this brand with FiM. Hell, maybe being an alicorn is just like having a super special specialization. I don't care, Its a fun show. And The duet, This Day Aria is the single greatest MLP song.

Don't take it worng when I say this, I like you, But you just mad because after all the pop shots this season has finally drawn a bead on your most crucial aspect, celestia's godhood. Besides, bitch was fueled by love. Hell, maybe celestia's a bit drained after 1000 years of going solos. Any disney fan can tell you love conquers all.

Now if you excuse me, I have plans for this new pieces of information.

(Ps please keep writing)

There was always something about season two that felt unsettling and off. Until today, I had not put the pieces together. Now it makes perfect sense. I cannot describe the great unease I felt when Celestia was defeated today; it felt like something that shouldn't happen; that COULDN'T happen. The laws of the universe of Equestria simply could not allow it. To be honest, throughout the entire finale episode today, I was thinking of the universe cemented in your stories. That in particular, is my vision of the land, as well. Equestria Prime is one of the last bastions of purity in the human imagination. Yet, throughout this season, we have seen contradictions to this ideal; outright hostility amongst pony kind that comes closer to that of a human than we would ever fear. Greed, cruelty, violence, all these things seeped through to form Equestria Beta. I'm scared. Scared of what this means to all of us. The sin of humanity is no longer satisfied with us alone; it seeks to spread its vile contamination to the innocent. The purest have been marked as the first to fall. But I still believe in Prime. Because I know that it proves that there is some quantum of immaculate in us, too. It may be locked so deep inside our minds; so deep that we cannot tap into it by our own accord, but it is there, and that is where Prime will always exist. I swear, I will never let it die. Keep fighting for the survival of this equine Eden, Chatoyance, for the pen is mightier than the sword, and words can inspire us to do great things.

-Ristar, The Shooting Star

Well. *Cough* NOW I'm depressed.

...also, I'm half-tempted to dig through your Blog archives to see if you did a matching rant on the subject of Hearth's Warming Eve, as that established that enough Unicorns working in tandem can and HAS done the job of spinning the sun and moon around their geocentric planet, and that the Principality of Equestria predates Luna and `Tia, demoting them from deities, to powerful ageless mortals.

...and since I find it nearly imposable to convey tone across a text-based medium, please take the above at face value. I.E.: I actually WANT to know your reaction to Hearth's Warming Eve.

Was there major disappointment? Hell yes.

Is the dream dead? No.

Because its writers like you that keep the dream alive. There are so many takes on Equestria at this point that there is something for everyone. You especially have contributed to that.

you have a good point..
but i will add in my own headcannon to this to hopefully explain celestias... failure.

the changlings feed on love.
and the source of the love is celestia.
celestia focuses the love into an attack towards queen chrysalis.
the love instead of hurting is more like a steroid shot.
so basically all the love in the world went into a being that was already superpowered.

thus celestia's fault was that she loved her little ponies too much.

cadance and shining were able to defeat the queen due to it not being an attack but a defense.. rebuilding the shield.
anyone knows that the best offense is a good defence.
so thats why they did not fail. because they shielded love.
if that makes sense.

also changlings are all the duplicate clones in the backgrounds... and every single bonbon.. thats why she has five + voices.

TL;DR
And I could really care less.

im going to have to agree with you to a point, the show did pickup a sudden gimmicky feel in some episodes but that is to be expected when there is a change in the lineup. But its like Dr Who with every incarnation of the doctor they change almost the entire team and that brings a new feel and new cannon material.
to quote you "And that is how we got electrical appliances and roads and hydroelectric dams and stream powered trains in a world that was originally written as being at a sixteenth century level of technology. Hasbro needed room to have the Pinkie Pie Automobile Playset fit in, the Friendship Express Trainset fit in, and so forth. This is where we see the magical land of Equestria turn from a cohesive and mythic realm, into a crude parody of our own, modern world in many ways." i will agree there is quite a bit of a change in time period for you, but i have always seen equestria in more of an early 1900's late 1800's time period (as long as the don't give them tvs and computers that don't take up an entire floor, yes there where computers in season 1 [kinda puts a hole in you theory in your 16th century level tech, and dents my theory {analog computer keeps it form getting a hole}], ill be happy).

most importantly the show was not revived so that they could pay a bunch of people to make art they paid them to make a product that they could sell and if they need to make the staff incorporate some things then that's OK with me just keep churning out a good product and the fans will stay. if you want a deep multi-layered story then i strongly recommend sources that are not children's TV shows that are supposed to be easy to decider, hell i have guessed the plot of several episodes based on the name and the quick synopsis. on a semi related note if it became like gen 2 (and all i know of gen 2 is from pony pokey) then i would start to get a little frustrated.

i do agree with you there where little things that didn't settle with me but the guard has changed and there is a new admiral at the head of this fleet and he is given the coordinates and a limited number of routs to take but he is trying, just remember what they gave the fans a LUNA EPISODE, a Derpy shout out, and several episodes with things that were included for us as a fan base. they stuck there necks out and i give them props for that, while they didn't flat out refuse to bend to there demands at every turn imagine how hard and expensive it would be to recall every Cadence toy or design every toy around the show.

i love your work and look forward to your next fic, if you want to i am open to criticism and debate.

Eh, you have a point in general but I don't think this episode was a particularly bad offender. The changeling queen (a) was herself a goddess kinda (b) drained the power out of another goddess and (c) was still surprised she won in a straight-up contest of strength.

The worst one was Mare Do Well with the stupid dam and the skyscraper. Unless I'm forgetting something even worse.

79999

I have always seen Hearth's Warming Eve as Equestria's answer to 'The Little Drummer Boy' - it is not history, it is just a story, apocryphal and devoid of fact, it simply teaches the three breeds that they should work together. There is so much about it that speaks this concept clearly - a children's play that adults enjoy too, a traditional Pony fantasy that is a treat at the end of the year. To me, this was clear, not just because of the beginning of the series, but because of the way in which the Warming story was presented and done.

Hmm...
I really don't know what to say here, Chat. I mean, you're a great author, and I love your work.
But you are overreacting something FIERCE.
I won't make the excuse that it's just a cartoon, because at this point, it's at least a little more than that. But you can't let a few marketing decisions ruin your taste for the entire show. That's what the marketing department does; they think they're writers, so they change the story to sell shit.
But this is what personal headcannons are for. For example. do I think Celestia's a living god? Sure, but the key word there is "living". God or not, a mortal shell is susceptible to physical trauma.
In the end, what you need to remember is that no matter what, friendship is magic. Maybe not always in it's literal sense, but as they are sentient, social creatures, true friendship to ponies represents clarity of the mind and soul, and the same can go for love. Machines, advancements, and greed can spring up all around you, but as long as you maintain your personal code of life, the magic and wonderment of life is undying.
Maybe I'm just rambling incoherently, I don't know.
Just... try not to let it get you down. Okay, Chat?

First off, I have to say I like your stories, even though some of them come off a little preachy. But they are good, regardless.

But my main argument is that I have to agree to disagree. We all knew from the start that My Little Pony is a cartoon whose main goal is to sell plastic toy horses that you can brush their hair and have pictures on their butts. Lauren Faust herself bought those same ponies probably after watching those old cartoons. And fans are grateful that she brought them back from the grave with their awesome design coupled with the great writers who provide the scripts, the animators who produce the magical motions, the actors who articulate the charismatic characters, and the musicians who bring melody to our harmony. But in the end, those people who bring us magic and happiness every week need to be paid. Paid by the money the consumers use to buy My Little Pony products. And thanks to the sudden interest of this franchise, there is a lot of money to be made when the consumers are not just little girls that beg and plead their parents to get them the little pony, but grown adults that have actual jobs and apparently will spend hundreds of dollars on custom made toys in addition to the ones found in the store. So, you need to make different toys, and one way to properly introduce toys is to add them to the cartoon made for that line of toys. Be it a really colorful train or another "alicorn" (the species isn't canonized) character, anything that would bring in the money to pay for the cartoon is good. I really don't know what happened with Faust and Hasbro. I thought she left on maternity leave, to be honest, seeing as it was announced she was pregnant. In the end, people still like the show, people will have their favorites or not, but it isn't the end, nay, but it is still the beginning. Personally, I thought Queen Chrysalis and the changelings were a very nice touch, despite the rushed feel of the episode. I would have never thought that such creatures existed in Equestria, until now, and so have all the other fans. In fact, their appearance may have brought a new set of characters for fan writers to play with.

I hate to be cynical, jaded, etc, but I as a person like the show because of the humor, the sincerity, and the efforts it makes to reach out to not only teach children, but on top of that entertain the parents of the children, but I don't see it anything more than that; it isn't some amazing mystical mythos that Faust thought up on her own. The creatures aren't original (punny, like the Timber-wolves), the cities aren't original (once again, punny), and almost all the episode plots aren't even original. The story of the sisters isn't the Pony Bible, it is just one of the many stories the ponies have. It isn't something to be worshiped more than it is, a simple cartoon. In the words of Mystery Science Theater 3000, "It's just a show; I should really just relax."

That is all.
P.S. It would have been a LOT better if Tori Spelling wasn't invited.

Well I have to agree with everything you wrote. I don't want to write in the universe of the show as out is now. I want to write as it was. My Celestia may not be so utterly unassailable as Yahweh but she is much more interesting for her flaws. She is also not useless like the beta one of the show now.

The show is still fun but it has lost that sense of high fantasy which sucked me in. It is now my little tiny toons. It's the end of the world but not the end of the show.

We've always had anachronisms like manehatten and the odd modern gadget, but those fit. The new princess of babysitting doesn't. She won't be from equestria, my magical realm.

The only problems I saw with the episode was a cheesy ending and Tori Spelling. But I accept the cheesy ending given the subject of the episode and Spelling won't show up in the reruns, DVDs, etc. As TVtropes would say, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) I still see a slightly frilly show featuring colored equines in magical land. I don't see a problem here.

Chat, you're starting to take this show a little too seriously. You're a good writer, but when you're taking My Little Pony as a some sort of holy text, (image, something) there may need to be an intervention. Don't be the one who puts us on the news for all the wrong reasons. As a gamer, I'm tired of this kind of crap happening.

I'm not sure how to feel. On the fore left hoof, I can DEFINITELY see where you're coming from. On the fore right, I don't think it's quite dead. Not yet. On the back left, it really, really does bother me that Celestia got taken out so easily (and where was Luna?! Or the vast majority of the Royal guards?! And really? Shining's the only one that can cast that shield spell? I find that REALLY hard to swallow). On the back right, the show may yet recover and retcon some of the more egregious problems with this season. I know ponies that have declared things like Mare Do Well as Discontinuity, because it's so wildly disparate from the Equestria we know and love. On... wait. Hm. I'm all out of hooves.

I know you're upset. I am too. Midnight definitely is. But I wouldn't write the show off just yet. There's still ways to waltz in Luna's Night and be the good ponies we're meant to be in Celestia's Day. Don't give up hope.

I agree with you, and it makes me sad to do so.

In the first season we saw so many things. There was likenesses to Plato's Republic in the Ideal society. There was the mane six being different aspects of yin and yang in 'body', 'heart', and 'mind'. There was the story of the Cosmocrator beating back the Chaos in a creation mythos.

Season two had much less of that, but it seems like a bit of it managed to filter over in sporadic gaps. Things like Hearth's Warming Eve, when they illustrate 'the origin of war' through the rulers coveting land and forcing their underlings to go do their bidding (when the underlings all just want to get along). Or when Nightmare Night mirrored Halloween, where creatures that were once truly horrifying are truncated down into thrills for children.

But now ... now Celestia is mortal.

I could make the excuse that the Evil Changeling Queen is actually some fallen "old god" that we just don't know the back story of yet, OR that she is a metaphor for how the deceitful world will eventually sap dry and kill one's religious faith (and under the guise of "love" too) ... but I don't think that is actual what the writers had in mind.

I think you're right. The shark has been jumped, and there's nothing much we can say or do about that.

Even though I enjoyed the episode, I see where you're coming from. My headcanon was delivered a swift kick to the gootch with a third alicorn introduced.

One thing I might say though: if ponies have deities, all powerful beings, why can't there be just as powerful gods for changelings or dragons or griffins or stegosauruses? Who is to say that Crysalis isn't a goddess herself and that is why she could challenge Celestia?

80282
Well, for the story to be there, she did not need to be an alicorn. This tells me that it was probably either a bad idea from someone who doesn't understand the show enough to work in the necessary changes/expansions to make it fit, or a direct "this is how it will be" from someone high enough in Hasbro's corner that it could not get shunted.

Cadence could have been a unicorn princess from a neighbouring country, even, leaving the "real" Princesses unassailably the only two alicorns, but no. Princess Cadence, ergo winged unicorn. What? You say there are only two? Well, now there's three. Shutup or you're fired. Also, Queen Chrysalis - queens are evil, remember? They still have some rules, but are willing to talk on others to sell toys (I believe there has been a princess cadence playset for a while...).

80339

Not everything has to be explicitly stated to be part of the story. Indeed, some of the best parts of stories are only implied. That is what makes them so powerful and tenacious in the mind.

I don't think it was a matter of Nightmare Moon and Discord being more powerful than Celestia or not. It was about the prodigy of Celestia being able to rise to the occasion to defeat the threat, and come into her own power to do what she must done. It was about the birth of the new gods under the direction of the older ones.

To set your mind at ease, I mean no ill will with my posts. I never have. However we will not agree with each other. Whatever negativity I bring out is with me until I alone dispel it. That is the way of things and you can not change it, but it was nice of you to offer. Thank you.

I am afraid I must disagree. Being all-powerful would make it very difficult for Celestia to be used as anything but an observer or escape route (see: S2 Ep3: lesson zero). However, her weakness has been an ever present factor (See: S1 Ep1/2) and it seems any villain can render her powerless to stop them. But in a way you are also right, as Celestia is supposedly a god, so why is divine power not enough to defeat a shapeshifter in its true form. But who knows, maybe really is > . I for one will try to enjoy the show for what it is until it reaches the "self destructive spiral" stage, and then get some bubblegum. (Did I really just say that? Woooow.) Still, you have a well constructed arguement, and I respect that. I quite liked the episodes, to be honest, and do not expect you to tell me otherwise. You disliked the episode? That's your opinion and as it is as true as the sky is blue. Screw it, simple meaning: Each unto his own.

Now with tiny pictures!

I'd have to agree with 80292 and 80231 on this. You really are taking this rather seriously, Chat. And you really do have it in for that dam too. I'd have to watch the first season again to get specifics, but they always had steam locomotives and Victrolas among other things, both of which would fit in a roughly late Victorian/Edwardian time period. That would be ~1880 - ~1910, for people who don't use Great Britain as a timekeeping device. The locomotive is even correct for the period, its a 4-4-0 wood fueled loco (even though it was shown burning coal in the mystery episode). As for the dam, hydroelectric dams date back farther than you seem to know. The first hydro plant on the Niagara River was built in 1881 and supplied DC electricity to the surrounding mills and town. Even as early as 1885, Westinghouse built an AC generating station on the river and that was just the beginning. So a hydroelectric dam isn't out of place at all. Anyways, the oven in Sugercube Corner (which was shown prominently when Pinkie sang her cupcake song ) definitely isn't a coal or wood stove, which only leaves gas or electricity (or magic, if you want to take the easy way out). If they've shown anything (aside from Twi's flashy equipment in the Pinkie Pie Sense episode or the film reels with synchronised sound), I haven't noticed it or didn't care. I haven't seen the finale and from what I've read, it killed a lot of "headcanon" for a lot of fanfiction writers. You just seem to have reacted much more strongly than others, considering your high (and not unfounded) regard for the show and Faust's writing ability. Now don't get me wrong, you're a great writer, even when you come across as preachy (which is often, mind). You really don't need the show's "permission" to write your own interpretation of what the Magic of Friendship, Celestia/Luna, etc mean, plenty in the Conversion Bureau series doesn't even mesh with the first season and you've never let that stop you. Just gather up your spouses and go somewhere relaxing together until you all aren't mad about a little girl's pony cartoon anymore. Then get back to doing whatever it is you do when you aren't mad about ponies (I tend to play Skyrim , but that's just me).

79970
That must have stunk to high heaven. Why would you even set 50 gallons of turds on fire in the first place? I'd call it more an overreaction than shit, though.

80390

I am glad you see where I am coming from. In that case you see that sometimes children have to be allowed to fall. The student has to have the potential of failure, otherwise there is no risk. Without REAL risk, then there is no trial. The trial must take place in order to bring wisdom and understanding. When you are in Celestia's place, you realize that the universe will move on it's own accord, and it can be very uncaring and even cruel at times. The student must be prepared for these things. The student must EXPERIENCE these things and know genuine terror and the possibility of failure, no matter what it may bring. Because it is building to something. You may not know it now or ten years from now, but eventually you realize that it was all building to an apex. At that point you will need to use every atom of experience that has been dug up, and you will cherish it accordingly.

We each individually have the luxury of being kind and merciful to one another. However the universe, as a whole, does not care for such things, and will grind us under if given a reason and a chance. We must be aware of this, and take precautions to train against it. After that, we are well advised to train our protege in the same manner. You can say "what if she had not done this or that" all day long ... but fact remains that she WAS able to succeed. Celestia knew what her student was capable of.

Personally, in the Nightmare Moon situation, I like to think that Celestia actually WAS unable to react. They were diametrically opposed on a primal level. She had to wait for the dawn of her sun before any action could be taken. Even then, it was her sister, her polar opposite in every way, knowing her every strength and weakness. Would you be able to vanquish a being like that? However, I think with the Discord situation, Celestia knew what she was doing. She was giving Twilight the reigns there. That was real the Twilight test.

But all this functions within the framework of the story. What Chatoyance is talking about are themes that transcend the storyline. Ideas that extend out from it, and have formed it from the start. On THAT level, MLP has failed to live up to its potential, and we are all lesser because of it.

Goodness.

Is it wrong that I've been waiting for this rant all day with some amusement? I would be lying if I said I didn't share some of your disdain at how this imaginary paradise has been trodden on, but I also saw this coming from far away. From... Well, when I first heard "wedding episode", actually. I knew then, that the show had been forced away from its Feminist roots to peddle what society tells six-year-old girls they're supposed to want. And not any wedding, but the wedding of the Pink Pony Princess. Of Love. Squee. And really, if she wasn't an alicorn, then she wouldn't have been enough of a special snowflake. Then there was Tori Spelling. And it was the season finale. So yeah. Commercialism turned up to twelve. And Hasbro management... Well, we knew that they never really caught on that "talking ponies" wasn't the show's main selling point. At least they acknowledged us enough to say hello and give Derpy a speaking role. And they forgot to meddle for almost two entire seasons.

The show was never supposed to be good. It wasn't supposed to appeal to anyone with a Y chromosome or a combined age and IQ over 90. But Faust did it wrong. She took it seriously. She gave a show for little girls intelligent characters, quiet feminist undertones, and creative stories. We got lucky. Big time. Maybe the ride is over. But I've been a Brony since last February, and I have to say that it's been one hell of a ride. In fact, I'm satisfied. I'm full up, on ponies and pictures and fanfiction. Thank you, by the way, for so much of the last.

Disclaimer: I haven't read everything above (you guys are fast), and I'm going to ramble from here on out.

tl:dr: MLP was a stroke of luck and a lot of fun, and I won't renounce the happiness it gave me even if it does lose its magic. Twilight Sparkle is best pony.

I'm of two minds on the Celestia is Goddess idea. Technically, the unicorns were raising the sun and the moon on their own long before Celestia and Luna came along, and every major battle they fought included wielding the elements of tactical harmony. So no, they're not creation myth deities. On the other hand, yes they were. Because that's the flavor of the story that was told. And like you, when Queen Chrysalis was revealed and started monologuing, I was thinking "Excuse me, but there's an alpha goddess standing right behind you who's about to rip you apart." And likewise, I was dismayed when Chrysalis claimed the power of love and beat up Celestia. Later she dismissed the power of love and got beaten up by Cadence. So much for this week's guest stars. Hasbro is famous for that, by the way. Grossly adjusting the power level of characters in the stories according to what toy they're pimping at the moment.

For some reason, it stuck in the back of my mind to say this: Of all my favorite MLP moments, there are two that stand out. The second is when Rainbow Dash named Derpy. I actually backtracked to play that part again so I could confirm what I thought I heard: the affirmation of our love for a clumsy but struggling character who for me embodied the triumph of sisu. The first... Was in the first season finale when Rarity smashed her glass slipper. Both moments left me stunned with delight. And with that one stroke of her hoof Rarity won my adoration and led generations of women out of the illusion that their greatest value in life was to belong to some man. So yeah. Wedding episode. I was prepared for disappointment. And they took away Derpy's name, too. Those bastards.

tl:dr: Cadence got married. Rarity smashed her glass slipper. Rarity is best pony.

80471

That was an awesome post, Verreaux. Rarity and the slipper... I so agree.

I'm writing this part after the rest. I'm afraid that on re-reading I noticed that partly due to the layout I chose and partly due to the restrictions of text-based communication, this comment may come across as accusatory in tone. Almost everything was intended to be read neutrally, so please keep that in mind. Oh and also I recommend you do not read at all if you are offended by people contradicting you; there is an awful, awful lot of that.

--

Large amounts of assumptions from line one. You cannot criticise a show by making wild assumptions and fanwanking about it; only by what is presented by it.

>It's the Pony Bible, because it is, in it's entirety, a creation story, A creation myth.

It's not their version of the Bible. It is - and I quote from the show - an "Old Pony's Tale". It's their version of a Brothers Grimm tale. Nobody believes in it.

>Celestia and Luna, from scene one, act one, were goddesses. They could literally control the cosmos, performing stellar manipulations and planetary alignments as if it were nothing.

There is no proof whatsoever that the Universe in which Equestria resides works in the same way our Universe does. Now, other ponies can control wind, rain and lightning whilst others are in charge of plants, trees, birds and animals. Yet you are not referring to these ones as gods.

>As in just about every Creation Myth, something goes wrong, thus there is a an explanation for evil, and in this case it is Luna getting jealous. So, for a while, we have a monotheistic cosmos, ruled entirely by Celestia, the One True Alicorn.

This rests on the presupposition that Celestia is a deity, which is an assumption based on another assumption, that of the pony bible (which I have shown to be not the case).

>He is imprisoned again, but we get a mythic backstory: he's likely who actually created the universe of Equestria, he can certainly reconfigure the nature of reality itself at a whim, and he is more powerful than our goddesses, who - much like the pantheons of India, or the gods of Olympus, or the deities of many other cultures, required special godly tools and chosen heroes to be defeated.

He likely created the Universe? Assumption based on nothing. He can reconfigure the nature of reality? Assumption based on the nature of magic and what magic can and cannot do. More powerful than Celestia and Luna (who are not goddesses)? Assumption based on the nature of the Elements of Harmony and the Mane 6.

>From square one, Lauren Faust had an ontology here, a religious framework, a mythic framework, within which our pony stories occur.

>Joseph Campbell himself could not have done better - Lauren Faust used grand and well-worn mythology to craft her Equestrian Cosmos.

This is semi-true, but not in the deliberate way that you are suggesting. Quoting from Lauren Faust's DA account:

"For the world they live in, I pulled from stories I loved as a kid---- fairy tales, greek mythology and novels of the fantasy genre, such as Chronicles of Narnia and (not kidding) Lord of the Rings."

Now, since one of those was based on an actual religion and High Fantasy is generally inspired by that same type of mythology, there are going to be similarities to real religions. To suggest that she deliberately created her own is a step to far, in my opinion.

>There is no doubt what Celestia and Luna are, and no doubt what this world is, and no doubt that the Pony Bible is just that... the Pony Bible.

Untrue.

>After the first season, and the finale, Lauren leaves / is forced out by Hasbro, and we get new writers in. Writers that will play ball. Writers that do not have a contract that assures them that they have total creative control. Writers that will put Hasbro's toys into the show, even if it destroys all credibility.

>And that is how we got electrical appliances and roads and hydroelectric dams and fully powered trains in a world that was originally written as being at a sixteenth century level of technology.

First of all, nowhere is it said that it was originally written as being at a sixteenth century level of technology. The closes I can find is Lauren Faust saying on DA that she doesn't like showing electricity but occasionally does, and she feels fine "faking it" by including ovens, fridges, etc.

>Hasbro needed room to have the Pinkie Pie Automobile Playset fit in, the Friendship Express Trainset fit in, and so forth. This is where we see the magical land of Equestria turn from a cohesive and mythic realm, into a crude parody of our own, modern world in many ways.

Conspiracy theory based on nothing but a seeming hatred for the real world.

>And today, with 'A Canterlot Wedding', we see the primary goddess of an entire universe, a being capable of literally manipulating burning stars as if they were party balloons, struck down by a shapeshifting, insectoid vampire monster. In effect, Jehovah God just got suckerpunched by Barnabas Collins. If the Pope (or whoever big in religion) told you that Barnabas Collins could take Jehovah in a fight, what would that do for your ability to suspend your disbelief, and thus enjoy your 'faith'? It would pretty much crush it, wouldn't it?

As stated before, nowhere does it show that Celestia is a god at all, much less a Jehovah God. It's only in your stories that I've seen that avenue properly explored, which is making me suspect you are fanwanking because your stuff got jossed.

>The thing that makes 'Friendship Is Magic' so special is that Lauren Faust conceived it as something mythic, grand, larger than a mere cartoon. She believed in her world, in her story, in her mythology, in her cosmology. With some notable failures, the first season carries that faith in her vision, mostly.

First of all, no. Lauren Faust wanted to make Galaxy Girls and was offered My Little Pony. She then proceeded to use characters she played with as a child in locations not so subtly lifted from either other stories or real life. Secondly, I find it very suspect that you assign this grand vision to her and then disregard the times when they don't follow this vision (during which she had complete control and could easily have changed them) as "failures".

>But in the subsequent seasons, since she was forced out, we have seen the show swing wildly from the universe Lauren created to one which sells toys for Hasbro more effectively. That is why she was pushed out, if you couldn't tell - the promise of Total Creative Control does not sit well with corporate suits, and she had to go. It could not be tolerated. She made art, but Hasbro makes toys. Fairly inferior toys, truth be told.

We've just finished up the second season so I don't know why you're using the plural there. I'll just assume that it's a typo rather than a crafty attempt to make it seem like it's been a longer time since she was in charge.

I'm not even going to comment on the 'forced out' thing. Quoting Jayson Thiessen at his BroNYCon interview:

"On Lauren's departure: it was personal reasons. Which is to say she just up and told everyone she was burning out, and she withdrew right at the top of her game. It was a huge surprise to everybody, and nobody saw it coming, but they all respected her decision. The upshot is that there weren't any creative disagreements or corporate politics involved, it was just something she felt she had to do; and she'd mind-melded with Jayson and the rest of the team enough by then that they basically have all the handle on where she wanted to go with it that they need. (I wish I knew why nobody's thought to ask about this subject directly in prior interviews. It's clearly Lauren's story to tell, but it's nothing that sensitive or mysterious.)"

>Most 'Bronies', you will find, will not care. To them, MLP:FIM is merely a light diversion, a social rally point, a new Animaniacs. Look at the funny ponies, haw haw.

Making psuedo-quotes to suggest that people who disagree with you are mentally inferior and using quotation marks to pull a no true Scotsman is rather low of you. Moving on.

>But, right here on FimFiction, and out on the net, you will see examples of those who saw in Lauren's original something truly profound. There is an entire subgenre of fan stories, and it is not small, that entirely revolve around the concept that Equestria is literally heaven. Humans die, and go to Equestria as a reward. It's not a very good subgenre, but that is not the point. The point is that the original concept - Celestia and Luna as goddesses of a magical realm - has profoundly affected people.

When Avatar came out, several people committed or expressed plans to commit suicide in the hope that they would then be reborn on the planet they just saw in the movie. This is because people can be so awestruck by something they like that they utterly refuse to accept any notion that X world isn't the beautiful paradise they think it is.

In season one, the Equestrians harass, fight, bully and discriminate against each other and members of other species. The original concept you mentioned is only original in that it barely has anything to do with the actual world shown in the cartoon. It's wish fulfilment; these people will not try to improve their own lives and would rather imagine themselves in their OC paradise which just so happens to contain similar creatures and names to the one on their favourite TV show.

>This view, the original vision has created wonders like Welcome To Equestria and Are You Proud To Be A Brony. These are not mere fanservice. Watch them, really see them. They are Hymns. They are the liturgy of Equestria As Religion.

Good songs written by talented people. But their musical talent does not mean than the team should be in any way obligated to help with the delusions of some people and present Equestria as heaven.

>Equestria, as it was originally conceived, offered us a heaven, ultimately, where two truly benevolent deities took a personal and physical interest in the lives of their creations, even while they divided night from day and ran the universe like clockwork. More than this, they invited their creations to be part of that clockwork, that order, and run the seasons of their world. It was a world of kindness, generosity, love... and magic. It was, in a word, paradise.

I've shed doubt on every argument which led to this summary. It only offered heaven to the people who were willing to ignore the shadier aspects presented in-show.

>But, gradually, paradise has been being destroyed. The goddesses are now just magical ponies who are not that powerful, and who are likely charlatans. If Celestia can raise the very sun, surely no creature could hope to challenge her. It would be like you being overwhelmed by a play-doh sculpture you yourself had made.

Assumptions based on either previous assumptions or on nothing.

>The kind world we were first introduced to has become the home of greedy, selfish market ponies and self-help informercials run by greedy, nasty Minotaurs. It has become an ill-defined mish-mash of movie and cultural references and silly, pointless stories devoid of any more truly decent lessons about friendship.

It sounds to me like you're suffering from Rose Glasses syndrome and, like most, have an issue with MWW episodes. But most don't try to define the entire show by one episode. All movies by Friedberg and Seltzer are an ill-defined mish-mash of movie and cultural references. Friendship is Magic, according to you, is exactly the same as these movies? As far as I can surmise, you're talking about things like the Star Wars ending of RoHp2. Why do you think that's worse than Dog and Pony show essentially lifting the entire story from The Ransom of Red Chief? Or the Alice in Wonderland at the start of A Bird in the Hoof? Or the tale of Raricarus in Sonic Rainboom?

>It has become common.

Has it become common? What's that even supposed to mean? That it's like other cartoons? It was never separate from or above other cartoons in the first place. The elitism in that comment leaves a bad taste in my mouth, by the way.

>And that is a cardinal sin for magic. Magic can be fascinating, frightening, disturbing, wondrous. But the one thing it cannot ever become is banal. That kills magic dead.

One man's banal is another man's fascinating. Although I should point out that the eternal peace with no conflict and clockwork order you crave would result in incredibly banal programmes.

>One of my spouses, after 'A Canterlot Wedding', walked out saying that he could not watch the show again. It had jumped the shark. It had died. And I agree.

And that's his opinion to hold. Most people would strongly disagree; I have seen almost universal praise of A Canterlot Wedding. I suppose my approval makes me one of the braying non-fan caricatures you mentioned above, correct?

>They killed My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic today. I don't mean this as some screaming rant of personal upset. I mean it quite simply - the magic is well and truly gone.

I believe that you mean the magic you perceived is gone. Your detailed and carefully thought-out theories have been thrown out of the window in less than an hour. You've been jossed, completely and utterly beyond repair. For me, the magic is very much alive. For many others, the magic is still alive.

>We now have Alicorns, winged unicorns such as Celestia and Luna, common. The enemy of the episode, the Changelings, were essentially alicornoid in structure,

I find this logic faulty. Due to the fact that canon has not explored the alicorn physiology, your assertion relies only on the fact that changelings have wings and a horn. To this end, I can determine that the mountain gorilla is no longer critically endangered because it essentially shares skeletal structure with 7 billion humans!

I would also ask you to consider if you really think that announcing winged unicorns are common based on the structure of a species of animal which are defined by being able to change their structure to mimic something else is a sensible thing to do.

>Princess Cadence is an Alicorn, and it becomes clear that Celestia is all but helpless.

Yes, she is. This brings the number of true Alicorns (As in, alicorns which were born as alicorns) to 3. I understand that this destroys the plot of one of your stories, but this is something you should be prepared for when you write something outside canon. To blame the team for not being good enough is ridiculous.

And to decide Celestia is helpless based on the defeat in combat by someone juiced up by The Power Of Love, in a story so heavily and obviously inspired by Disney, is silly. Nowhere is Celestia described or portrayed as a warrior. That's why she has guards. Let's take you and me for an example outside Celestia. Now, you can write better stories than I can. Am I "all but helpless" because of this? And on the other hand, I can probably install and administrate computer network components and servers better than you can. Are you "all but helpless" now? No. It just means I am not a good writer and you are not a good network admin. Celestia's cutie mark is a sun, and that's her special talent.

> It is not special, nor is it unique. It is just cartoon ponies with little to nothing to say.

I'm sorry you feel this way. Many disagree.

>The closest we come in today's episode is that Twilight is praised for sticking to her guns. That is our lesson on friendship: keep yelling until somebody listens.

Today's episode was an adventure episode. In these episodes, we don't learn a new lesson on friendship (or in this case love); the lessons already learned are shown being used in a practical manner to defeat the forces of evil. So what is our lesson today? Love conquers all.

>I once offered that there were two Equestrias, the Equestria Prime universe of Lauren Faust's creation, a place of magic and love, and Equestria Beta, the Tiny Toons Adventure version with hydro dams and wacky hijinks and deadly cliff-roads and jokes for the sake of jokes.

I disagreed with your refusal to accept canon then, but kept quiet. But

>Now I offer that the latter cosmos has won, it has usurped Equestria Prime, and killed it.

Is intolerable. There never was an Equestria Prime and Beta, except inside your head.

>The problem is that Equestria Prime had all the magic that made people love the show. That magic comes from a mythic, self-consistent universe that can be believed in.
>Destroy the ability to suspend disbelief, destroy the mythic overtones, and the magic, the entrancing wonder, vanishes in the banality of selling toys.

>I am very serious. Equestria is dead, except for that fragment of the original cosmos that may yet live in our hearts. It was killed by consumerism and corporate meddling. It was killed by writers who could not see that a show about ponies could be something greater than a way to get a paycheck. It was killed by a lack of art and faith in its potential.

We come to the crux of the problem. I think I know what's happened here: due to the tendancy of fandom to engage in New Sincerity, you've built an image of Equestria inside your head that the show isn't presenting. Rather than adapt, you've instead decided that you know best and that The Man is at fault and the "new people" who make the show mustn't care about it as much as you do (Almost all of the team is comprised of the original people put together by Lauren Faust for Season 01. MWW is the only one who did not write a Season 1 episode). I think the reason you prefer Season 01 is because you hadn't built up that false Equestria when you were watching it.

It's a sad thing that you've spoiled ponies for yourself. I regret it had to happen. But happen it did, and you mustn't delude yourself into thinking that it was anything other than the result of your own actions.

My solution to headcanon being broken: throw more headcanon at it until everything makes sense (to you) again.

So, for Cadence, I assume she is not an actual Alicorn, but a Pegasus with a horn/ an Unicorn with wings, without Earth pony properties and without immortality (I guess she might live a little longer, but definitely not forever.)
The changelings? For starters I'd say they are completely unrelated to ponies (just some coincidence that they share the basic body build of a pony / we haven't seen their true form yet and they were only pretending to look that way), and maybe something about them being supercharged by The Power Of Love (tm) to explain how Celestia got defeated.

Or, you know, you can just pretend the episodes take place in an alternate universe. It is how I dealt with Mare-do-Well / Heart Warming's Eve.

tl;dr
broken headcanon? fix it with more headcanon.

80547

You certainly have an impassioned response. But you are not... correct. You have missed what I have said for the sake of what you think you understand.

On the Power Of Myth - all of the stories you site are themselves based on earlier works, specifically the mythologies of various cultures. That was Joseph Campbell's entire point. It all comes down to the basic, common mythologies shared by all human cultures. Of course Lauren drew from those sources. But when she compiled all those notions, it remains that she framed her Episode One as a Creation Myth. Even the illustrations used were designed to look like medieval manuscripts taken from religious texts and tapestries.

With regard to Hasbro, Lauren leaving and Jayson Thiessen and such: I worked for over fourteen years in the entertainment field before my retirement. I know the business. What you hear people say, to the public, is not what actually goes on. It is what is safe, from a career standpoint, to say. I have a few sources and a few insights most here do not. What I stated stands. It is not what will be said, publicly, at least not for a very long time (if ever) but I stand by it. That is how things really happen, in the real world.

On Celestia and The Power Of Love and on being Disney Inspired - that is my point with the entire notion of an original conception of MLP, as 'Equestria Prime', versus a corporate take 'Equestria Beta'. Doing overly blatant homages, cheap gags, and movie and television references is great for a silly comedy cartoon, but utterly destructive to any attempt to create a truly original world. The original effort was to make of MLP something truly original - that is why Lauren demanded a contract with Total Creative Control. That's very rare to get. She wanted to make an essentially feminist, anti-pink-ghetto cartoon that would empower girls and young women. That was her goal. It still is. Selling out to the standard socionormative archetype that a woman only had value when affixed to a man stands in stark contrast to every episode of the first season, which she had control of.

On the importance of a self-consistent, mythic world: the entire basis of all fantasy and science fiction - not to mention religion or any story - the very engine that powers it is suspension of disbelief. A fool says 'it's only a cartoon' or 'it's only a movie' or 'it's only a book'. No, it is more than that, if, and only if, it manages to create a stable, self-sustaining artifice in the mind of the audience, if it manages to get them to suspend their disbelief. This is only possible if the world is consistent, if the tone is appropriate, if the details support the artifice, if everything comes together to generate emotional and intellectual immersion within the fictional world. It all falls apart, and becomes 'only a cartoon' when those making it no longer make that effort, stop believing in their world, and use it cheaply and without the effort to make it believable.

Anything, however wild, however bizarre, can be made believable with the right tools used the right way. Even talking, party-colored ponies. That is the very art of real storytelling versus writing gags and jokes.

And the most powerful, and enduring stories use the tools of myth and legend within a cohesive, self-consistent construction. When such a construction is violated, the power of the work - the magic - is killed. My point stands, you simply did not appear to grasp it, as far as I can tell.

I am not talking out of my ass here. This is the basis of telling powerful stories, this is essential stuff and it did not begin with me. It is part of the fundamental understanding that writers in media have to know. You... truly don't seem to know this stuff yet. That's OK, it's there to learn. Abundantly, from much better teachers than I could even hope to imagine being. It's basic stuff. It's Writing 201.

I appreciate your passion. You clearly haven't worked in the entertainment industry. You appear to be taking things at face value because... you probably don't know not to. And it takes years to grasp all the nuances of what good writing can actually accomplish, or the universality of human storytelling. I hear your passion and conviction, I do.

But... it just isn't on the mark.

There is a reason that Star Trek, as a franchise, as an example, has generated a cult-like following that has lasted decade after decade, while something like Lost In Space, is ultimately a joke. There is a reason why The Lord Of The Rings inspires endless devotion while countless other fantasy series come and go like fashions from France. The secret, the power, the magic, is self-consistency and solidity, an effort to really work to make a serious, immersive world that can be discussed as if it were real. That is real magic, to make fantasy so solid that it is easy to imagine that it is truly real. This magic can be used in anything, from a serious fantasy to a cartoon. The mechanism works, whatever you use it in.

It is a rare commodity in the entertainment industry today. And it was what has been lost from MLP:FIM, and that is my basic point, and it absolutely stands.

80634

You present a compelling case. I'm willing to concede that I may be mistaken on several things. Thank you for responding politely. I'm more swayed to your opinion than I was before reading that, although not totally. I still enjoyed the episodes this season.

Now, I was about halfway through writing something else when I came to the blinding realisation that I am being the same kind of person that I abhor coming to me with computer issues to troubleshoot: Mr. "I Think I Know It All, Even Though I Don't". At this late stage, I can only immediately abandon what I was going to say, apologise profusely and assure you that I currently feel very embarrassed about it.

I have absolutely no hope whatsoever of changing your opinion. I won't try. It is not going to budge. However I would like to perhaps show you my perception of the events I saw.
I saw a fair few of the lessons learned in the past come through today. First was belief in your own feelings. Twilight, never one to need a lesson on the same subject twice, believed that fake cadence was acting in a fashion that was unharmonious. She was correct.
Second, Friendship needs to be fought for. She battled to keep friendship with her brother, Cadence, the preoccupied main cast and even Celestia herself.
Third, Celestia used to use the elements of harmony herself, so asking for help from friends when in tough situations is always a good idea.
Fourth, Twilight didn't judge fake Cadence by her cover.
Fifth, even though she could have kept to herself Twilight was not afraid to share her true feelings with her friends.Sharing is different than just believing.
If these lessons weren't enough to make you suspend some of your dissapointment, I am sorry. Celestia's injury was a bit scary. I can see how it affected you.
For what it is worth though, even if i don't condone it, Crysalis was attempting to feed her people. A noble goal, but a poor and distasteful execution.

...
I'm really not sure what to write here. I'd like to say something in sympathy or as a way to help convince you that the situation isn't as bad as it seems, but others have been doing that with far greater eloquence than I could hope to, and even those who haven't have essentially said what I was going to, i.e., apply headcanon until palatable. Of course, that's slapping duct tape on a collapsing foundation, a quick fix that isn't appropriate for the problem.

I hope this doesn't turn you off of ponyfiction, since you and other breathtakingly talented writers like you take the already exceptional things Faust did with what was intended from the beginning to be a 30-minute toy commercial and turn them into a truly epic, sweeping fantasy universe. I also hope you at least give Season 3 a shot. Who knows? This could simply be a nadir. Even if it is a sign of permanent decline, there's no reason why spikes of quality can't still take place.

So, yeah. Message of contrition, sympathy, hope, and shameless fanboying. Personally, I'm going with either Celestia underestimating Chrysalis and getting surprised, the physical avatar defense, or any more power, and she'd essentially nuke the castle. Doesn't excuse Twilight's asspulled backstory or any of the other plot contrivances, but...

Yeah, I'm just going to close here, before I depress myself anymore.

I am... unfortunately.... no stranger to ignoring imperfect or downright embarrassing media when I want to. When people ask me about the Highlander movie series I tell them 'There can be only one' and refuse to discuss anything beyond the first movie. I feel the same about the Ghostbusters franchise, though I have never spoken to anyone who agreed with me. The first movie is the best and it stands alone. In the case of MLP second season I have already chosen to ignore certain facts which do not fit MY view of Equestria, which seems to be very much in line with your own.

I very nearly agree with the entirety of your post. I was dreading the wedding episode from the moment I heard about the pink alicorn, 'There can be only two', and there is no way in my Equestria that anything like a pony shaped insect could have bested a being capable of shifting the stars in their orbits however much 'love' it had managed to sup upon prior to the conflict.

Our only point of difference is about the death of the show. Certainly Hasbro has removed the creator from her creation and the entire world is the lesser for it however there are those of us, like yourself, who have this idea of what Faust's MLP means and so long as we continue to hold true to that idea it will never be dead.

Thank you Jennifer. Thank you for your great works for the modern MLP fandom and beyond, and thank you for seeing something truly phenomenal in a show which I despised with the burning passion of a thousand suns during it's earlier incarnations.

80411

Deployment yo. We didn't want to piss off the locals, even though they was already shooting at us. Fun fact: You strip nude (or underwear) because you CANNOT et the smell out of your clothes.

Funny thing about war, I can be significantly younger than somone and have 10x the life experince. On that note:
>Sees every one tripping
>decides to drink a bit
>smoke a cig or two
>Watch the finale again
>Write some adevnture time crossover
>Repeat until this shitstorm blows over

And here I thought I'd have to do something stupid, but this time everyone else was retarded for me.

I agree with you, almost completely.
Season 2, although entertaining, funny, well-made, and all the good adjectives you may crank out, was so different from the first, it stuck me as jarring at first contact to me as well.

Season 2 was great, but Season 1 was... something else entirely. It was the force that managed to generate an entire army of iron-willed devotees out of the depths of 4chan (4chan! It's almost unbelievable, in retrospect), and that took the entire world by storm, with the strength of our ideals, and our unshakeable love and faith in a cartoon that shook our personal lives to the core.

Season 2 has been nothing of the sort. If S2 had aired before S1, much less of this fan greatness would have sprung from that alone. No standing in front of impossible odds. Nothing nearly this epic. We'd just be another fandom, amidst all the others, with nothing to truly stand out, maybe except for the peculiar intended target audience. Writing some fanfics, arting some fanarts, whoppedoo, last episode was yesterday, now I'm bored, let's do something else.
I remember the hype that would last for the whole week about any one of the later S1 episodes... Not to mention, the whole summer afterwards. It was palpable. It was true magic.

Especially now that I started watching the first season again, together with a friend, I truly realized how much more love was put into the eariler episodes, not of course from a technical or musical standpoint or else, but from a actual love standpoint. About how it showed that the people behind were caring entirely about doing a truly good cartoon, and not having second interests; instead, being concerned about the audience first and foremost, and wanting to teach something worthy, and doing it with all the attention they could provide.
The letters were one very clear example of that... and how amazing they were, how deep struck into the hearts of so many of us. Season 2, instead, ridiculed that right from the very start, with Lesson Zero, transforming it into a chore more than anything else, with a good deal of the episodes missing them entirely, or just half-addressing them.

I can't stress enough that S2 was still good, very good indeed, possibly because it had been running off the steam of the ideas, and most importantly most of the cast, of the first season; but throughout the episodes, the feeling of something lacking was very clear, and in part, post has helped me clear out why.

About the episode at hoof, for the season ending they wanted a Disney Epic sort of finale... and they achieved it. Truly, the songs were good, the scenes were convincing, the villain was well-drawn, and it ended in dances and fireworks... and I surely enjoyed it
However, this finale was Disney-like in a late-Disney sort of way, much unlike the Disney Reinassance sort. I watched it, I very well liked it, but I won't plant myself in front of the screen and watch it again and again and again... just to soak in all the amazingness and love. S1 had that going from me, now I barely watch each episode twice, mostly with a lot of time inbetween.

I must confess, for the most part, on the inside I feel glad S2 is over... In a way, my daydreams of ponies (not to mention, the best fanfics!) were better than the current episodes, and so, I shall return to them undisturbed. The jokes were nice, the worldbuilding was cool,. but now let's return to the pony goodness we all loved in the first place, the one about magic and friendship.

Thanks for shedding some light on me about why Faust had left; I guess I had been trying to hide this fact to myself until now.

And allow me to congratulate with you, for keeping in your mind the vision of a great Equestria, that refused to take in what it didn't need. It's also kinda a lesson from the last episode, sticking to your guts :p

P.S. I had to break out the chocoloate to write this. Too much nostalgia oozing out :p

Having been forced to ponder the social and religious ramifications of Celestia and Luna pretty much since S01E01 - due to both running essentially a massive living-world RPG with hundreds and hundreds (and hundreds) of ponies, and for the simple enjoyment of pondering ‘deity’ as a duality of equine beings – seeing the show creators ‘humanize’ Celestia yesterday gives me mixed feelings, but in general they are good.

On the one hand I really, really, enjoy a good creation myth because they are the core tenants of any good ‘world’, be it real or imagined. On the other hand, humanizing Celestia and defining her as limited versus limitless lends credence to Twilight and her friend’s adventures as being required, versus a Celestia-defined learning experience. Also not allowing the mane six to reach the Elements, and therefore not assemble the giant fighting robot of Harmony, was a nice touch.

See, for me the instant Celestia had a speaking role in the show – S01E01 – the preamble became the pony equivalent of cultural hero myth – a fanciful retelling of events generations in the past, embellishing a few core events into shining allegory and essentially making Celestia larger than life. Perhaps Celestia has her own apple tree and cannot tell a lie incident as well.

We do know the battle between the two sisters happened, and we do know the Elements exist – what we don’t know is the whole story of what happened. But I know if I were immortal Pony Pharaoh, I’d certainly not go out of my way to diminish belief in my divine right by correcting thousand year old tales of my awesomeness...

Anyway, I think the ‘key’ to Celestia lies in the relationships we see and what Lauren mentioned was her intent...

We know that Lauren wanted Twilight and Celestia to be teacher-student relationship based around Twilight’s gift of magic, and along the way Twilight was to learn about herself, her friends, and the ‘magic of friendship’. Now, if Celestia was “deity”, this would instantly turn this simple premise into an interesting parallel of the Jesus story… Twilight being sent from Canterlot (the seat of deity) to Ponyville (the seat of mortals) in order to learn about being a pony, gather her disciples, and eventually save everypony from an eternity of darkness. As this is a children’s cartoon, the “save them all through self-sacrifice” thing would have to be changed around a bit… So we got Luna being redeemed of her evil by Twilight baptizing her in the rainbow of friendship, and ultimately she was accepted by the Celestia “deity” regardless of her past sins and allowed into Canterlot.

I’m not exactly sure this was the intent given Lauren’s hints at the relationship being more “Gandalf” than “God”. Even Zecora was intended to have a master / student relationship with Twilight, where Twilight would learn about the natural world though Zecora. But Hasbro figured more than one student/teacher relationship would confuse an eight year old… They’re probably right.

Ultimately there has not been a single scene of Celestia wielding ‘the power cosmic’. In fact she really seems to be little more than a very wise and very powerful unicorn with a neat sense of humor and a penchant for placing ponies in the right place at the right time to save the day - just like a certain grey wizard with a love of the Halfling's leaf. The whole sun thing has been symbolic every time it’s been brought up – lending even more to the “Gandalf” image.

I think he would approve of the ruse.

To guess at Celestia’s position in the ponyverse I’ve had to come up with lots of ‘explanations’ – starting with personality and ending at cosmology – of which I’m certain none are correct. But all are just as plausible as Celestia being deity – some even more so given the bits and pieces we’ve seen as the show has progressed.

To summate Chatoyance, just keep doing what you’re doing. I love the treatment you give Celestia and Luna in your stories because I really like that deep, mystical reverence you portray. But try to not let canon get in the way… Working in a shared universe, especially one where the ‘masters of the universe’ change things on a whim, and aren’t talking, is a challenge. The ‘alternate universe’ tag really should be put on everything on FimFiction, because the only ‘true’ stuff comes out of the TV, the rest is various degrees of guessing.

As for the show and jumping sharks, that’s a personal thing and no one can really talk to that point. But I, for one, am finding the stories to be witty and fun and the world building seems to be continuing on.

Yes, Mare-Do-Well was way, way over the top, but in general I think the team is solidifying the ‘world’ pretty well considering Lauren even says none of that was ever defined… You don’t define that sort of thing beyond ‘texture’ for 22-minute weekly shows for eight year olds.

The fact we get any consistency at all beyond stylized backdrops is pretty amazing.

Ignoring the main point, which you cling to with Gollum-levels of fervor and obsession, this part bothered me:

>Most 'Bronies', you will find, will not care. To them, MLP:FIM is merely a light diversion, a social rally point, a new Animaniacs. Look at the funny ponies, haw haw.

Also ignoring the asinine levels of condescension in that part, are you goddamn insulting Animaniacs? Because that is fucking inexcusable.

And those three old mares that i love most.
Celestia, Luna and Lauren's ghost.
They took the friendship express out to the cost,
The day, the magic died.

You've hit the nail on the head Chatty. While enjoying a slender few episodes from this season, overall I've found myself all the most disinterested as the consistency and magic was gradually sucked from the original fantastical world. I hadn't even remembered there was another episode to watch until I started reading through fimfic tonight.

Sad as it is, while part of me dearly hoped it might last, I saw this coming from the start. At the end of the day FIM was made to kick-start toy sales, not to reinvent the franchise despite having the potential to do so. Hasbro are not in for the long game; they had not planned on creating something genuine that leave a lasting mark on society, only something to base colourful distractions off.

But you know what. I think I'll linger here, in the true Equestria and the comunity that lives within its spirit.

81308
I guess I'm proud to be a "brony", then.

81031
That sucks. Good luck out there getting shot at by pissed of Muslims.
I for one didn't really notice the fanwank until now. I'd just figured people would roll with it instead of getting pissy.

80634

Okay to start off I really don't like confrontation. I don't. But there are a few things in here I must take issue with:

>With regard to Hasbro, Lauren leaving and Jayson Thiessen and such: I worked for over fourteen years in the entertainment field before my retirement. I know the business. What you hear people say, to the public, is not what actually goes on. It is what is safe, from a career standpoint, to say. I have a few sources and a few insights most here do not. What I stated stands. It is not what will be said, publicly, at least not for a very long time (if ever) but I stand by it. That is how things really happen, in the real world.

Okay, granted I haven't been in the industry. I can't say for certain that everything we've been told is the 'safe lie' but neither can I just 'accept' your word for it. I realize I may be misguided. Maybe too trusting. But I don't believe what we've been told is lies. Regardless, this is something neither of us will ever agree upon. Moving on.

>On Celestia and The Power Of Love and on being Disney Inspired - that is my point with the entire notion of an original conception of MLP, as 'Equestria Prime', versus a corporate take 'Equestria Beta'. Doing overly blatant homages, cheap gags, and movie and television references is great for a silly comedy cartoon, but utterly destructive to any attempt to create a truly original world. The original effort was to make of MLP something truly original - that is why Lauren demanded a contract with Total Creative Control. That's very rare to get. She wanted to make an essentially feminist, anti-pink-ghetto cartoon that would empower girls and young women. That was her goal. It still is. Selling out to the standard socionormative archetype that a woman only had value when affixed to a man stands in stark contrast to every episode of the first season, which she had control of.

Okay, I'm guessing you'll say it's not true, or pieces of information are missing, but you DO know Lauren herself had a hand in crafting the story for the Wedding Episodes right? She said so on her own Deviantart. The very thing you say destorys the show is something Faust herself envisioned to happen.

Am I arguing that the show has been 'watered down' ? No, because yeah it kinda has. Some of the magic is gone. But it's not dead. When I saw the wedding episode, all it did was spark the drive in me. It made me WANT to write, to create. It was like watching the season one opener all over again. Really I -STILL- see you having a problem with the fact that Celestia lost so easily. Many are having that problem. But to me she was NEVER a goddess. That's just how you decided to interpret her. No it's not the whole gist of it, but it is an issue.

Regardless I want to really argue this little bit: "Selling out to the standard socionormative archetype that a woman only had value when affixed to a man" Okay WHERE did this happen? Seriously? Is it because Cadence wasn't able to 'save the day' till she got with Shining Armor? I really hope you aren't trying to make the argument that Cadence 'only wanted to be a bride' due to how her lines in the song went. About dreaming of such a thing since they were small. I don't take that as her just wanting to be a bride. Then again, I don't know if that's the argument you are making. I'm only guessing here.

Still if that IS part of it, I really don't think that's it. I saw it more of she had dreamed of finding 'That special Somepony' Really would it have been any different if it was a guy trying to stop his girl from marrying a changling? Sorry if I sound very defensive here, but I happen to be a guy which one of his biggest dreams is to get married and start a family. A lot of the negative comments I see toward the fact these episodes were a 'wedding' gives me the impression that it's NOT okay to dream about getting married, and frankly it hits a nerve.

Regardless I could be arguing against a point you were never trying to make. I'll move on.

>A fool says 'it's only a cartoon' or 'it's only a movie' or 'it's only a book'. No, it is more than that, if, and only if, it manages to create a stable, self-sustaining artifice in the mind of the audience, if it manages to get them to suspend their disbelief. This is only possible if the world is consistent, if the tone is appropriate, if the details support the artifice, if everything comes together to generate emotional and intellectual immersion within the fictional world.

This is a dangerous line to walk. I get what you are saying. It's not just 'any' cartoon. It's not just 'any' story. It's one that touches you. Gets inside you. Makes you dream, makes you believe. It can start a fire in you. This is no mere fantasy world. No mere cartoon. For you it's something truly magical. It is what you'll go to if you've had a bad day. It's what you yearn to emulate when you create.

But in the end. It's STILL just a cartoon, and by this I mean. You need to know when to back up and take stock of your surroundings. I love Sailor Moon. It was a show that helped me through middle AND High School. If I hadn't had that world to watch. Those characters to experience. I may have gone and hurt myself when younger. The show has remained magical to me even after all this time. I love it, I watch it over and over. It has very well influenced who I am today.

But there was a time I wanted it to be more then that. I wanted to BE there. I wanted to be a character in the show. I wanted to leave this world and experience only that one.

That's a really bad thing to want. I got a little 'too' obsessed with the show. To be honest, whether that was your intention or not, I see the same kinda... Obsessiveness from your posts. I'm no fool for saying Sailor Moon is just a cartoon. Because at the end of the day, really that's all it is. It is, and yet it isn't. It's still a world I find fascinating. A world I'll revisit again and again, likely until I'm dead. But I don't want to get so into the show that I try to start 'The Church of Serenity' or something. We need to know when to hold back. Getting so worked up over a show that you become delusional is not healthy. I've chatted with someone so into their own little 'Story' that they believed they had a demon spirit guide, giving them advice in real life.

Frankly that kinda thought process SCARES me. My stories are my children. My love and joy. But yeah... They are just stories. I hope you see what I'm trying to say here.

Also I'm not trying to say you are delusional, but I do think that maybe you are a bit 'too' passionate about the show. We can't let a fictional show distract us from real life. Life has a way of biting you in the ass when you do that.

Sorry if I'm jumping to conclusions here. I could be way off the mark. Your rant of the 'Pony Bible' though kinda made me raise an eyebrow.

Really the problem I'm having here is you are saying the 'Show is dead' but really that mostly seems to be the case to you. I wasn't feeling much of the second season till this Wedding Episode, and well, the show exploded into life for me again. But the way you speak in your post. It's like you are telling me I'm wrong. That I shouldn't feel so excited to see what happens next, and well. That sorta bugs me. It's like you are saying I'm stupid for liking something.

I'm not going to tell you to like the season final. If you really didn't like it, that's just how it is. But I think it's not impossible that your theory is wrong.

In the end, I'm going to say that I'm almost certain now that the half-written story I had done based on your 800 Year old Promise fic should remain half finished. I'm pretty convinced now that you would not like what it contains.

Well I've rambled long enough. I feel better, and really hope I'm not coming off as a jerk. I'm not trying to be, but I believe I've made the points I wanted to make.

81556
What the fuck do you even mean by that? All I said was that her jab against Animaniacs was asinine, nothing at all about proudness and Bronydom.

81668
Never fucking mind then. I just like my new Animaniacs.

81716
What? New Animaniacs? Do you mean the Analogy, because that's the only thing I can even think of that you mean.

And to come back to the main point: MLP and Animaniacs are not even remotely similar what the fuck.

81724
It was a poor attempt at a fucking joke. Calm the fuck down, goddamn.
(I'm not actually angry, but chill out all the same. )

81748
BUT PONIES IS SRS BSNESS!1!!!

Still though, I'm less angry and more confused at the mention of Animaniacs.

And it's because I love Animaniacs so much, I fuck it at night.

81754
Glad we're on the same fucking page, then.

In all seriousness, though, the comment you originally pointed out was rather condescending and generally insulting. The bit about Animaniacs was probably a jab at its "cartoony" nature. Cartoony being the classic slapstick humor and zany cartoon type stuff that made Animaniacs funny.

Fun Fact: Animaniacs was actually set in Pinkie Pie's head. Its what she thinks about when she isn't singing.

81775
That's my problem with the jab thought. The idea that being 'cartoony' was a bad thing, when some of the best shows in animation were 'cartoony.' And MLP never seemed like it was above being cartoony, i.e EVERYTHING PINKIE DOES.

... That's perfect. Someone, make fan fiction, now I say!

81775 "Fun Fact: Animaniacs was actually set in Pinkie Pie's head. Its what she thinks about when she isn't singing. "

I really like that idea.

Animaniacs was an utterly brilliant show. I would never say otherwise. It was genius piled on sold gold platters of joy. Even Tiny Toon Adventures had it's moments. But, both of those shows had a commonality: they were wacky, cartoony, over-the-top silly fun. They were random, bizarre, trippy and wonderful, but they did not for a second try to create a self-consistent world. Everything was up for grabs, everything for a gag.

There is a wide gulf between absurdist humor and 'dramady' - drama with comedic moments. But for many, especially in America, when the subject is animated, there is no acknowledgement of that vast difference. It's just cartoons. For children. For yuks.

Things like anime and European animation and team-ups between Japan, France, England, Canada and the US have worked to try to get past this blind spot in the American culture. We've gotten wonders like The Mysterious Cities Of Gold, Code Lyoko, Last Airbender, and so on, all of which were dramady - mostly drama with moments of light comedy as befits emotional relationships. All had self-consistent worlds, designed to be believed in, to be accepted as 'real' for purposes of suspension of disbelief. The worlds of those shows were solid and could be accepted as 'places' and not just gags or scenes.

Self-consistency is not the hobgoblin of small minds, it is the glue that holds fictional worlds together.

In 'A Canterlot Wedding', the very cosmology of MLP:FIM was broken. The character and personality of Twilight Sparkle was broken through the retconing of a brother we have never heard of who 'she did everything with'. Up to this point, she has been the classic 'Only Child', withdrawn, introverted, almost autistic in some ways. If she had such a brother, she would not have been the character we have seen up until this episode. She would have been rather different. It breaks the character.

And these two things are only the tip of the iceberg of fail. The show had feminist overtones, those are gone as all of our characters are more than delighted to go google-eyed over a disney-styled happily ever after marriage. No. The show had gone to great lengths to establish character growth in Rarity with regard to just this issue, and it is she that fights to catch the bouquet - suddenly she has learned nothing at all. It's all out the window, the entire two seasons of development.

This show demonstrated a total, utter lack of care for consistency. MLP:FIM started as a show about characters learning and growing. Now it is a gag cartoon. Like Animaniacs, more and more.

Only MLP shouldn't be Animaniacs. We already have a wacky cartoon. Hell, we have many. MLP was clearly, overwhelmingly supposed to be in the catagory of Airbender and Lyoko and Cities of Gold - a story of a world and the beings within it, and the lessons they learn and the relationships they forge, the things they accomplish. A place, not a gag.

Animaniacs is brilliant. But it is not what MLP should ever be. MLP should be what it began as - a self-consistent pseudo-medieval fantasy world powered by magic and populated by fantastic creatures learning what it means to be a friend as they grow up. That was the premise. That is what brought us all in, because that is what it was, that was the promise it offered.

Now, it sells the Princess Cadence Wedding Playset, story, characters, plot and character growth be damned. That is my point, that is my whole point, and even a cursory examination should reveal the truth of that point. The Rarity we saw crush her Cinderella slipper would never have caught that bouquet. Twilight would not be the introverted, isolated, neurotic little loner we have known if she had grown up in the company of such an outgoing, athletic, gregarious brother. It's not believable. Princess Celestia could not have been defeated by a mere monster, and Luna, her sister, would not have ignored everything only to ask later 'did I miss anything?'. No. I call bullshit. This was not the world we have known, these are not the characters already established.

The writing of this episode was piss poor. Virtually anyone on FimFiction could have done better. Certainly the upper 50% of the writers here could have, simply because they actually know the damn characters.

I'll always have season one, as will we all. And the few wonderful episodes of season two. And, in season three, I am expecting at least one decent episode. At least one, maybe two. But nearly every episode should at least be decent. It shouldn't be crap episodes with the occasional decent one, it should be decent episodes with the occasional brilliant one. That was the case with season one. Mostly decent, even good, with occasional brilliance.

It is only a lack of imagination and talent that keeps that from happening every season.

There are stories here, on FimFiction, that I consider vastly better than most of season two of MLP:FIM. Because the fanfic writers here... care. They give a crap. They know their subject matter. It isn't just a paycheck for them or an embarrassing gig to list on their resume. They care.

Unlike the author of this episode.