On Leaving the Stable · 2:07pm Oct 5th, 2013
Earlier tonight, someone directed me towards an essay regarding Fallout: Equestria and Murky Number Seven. The writer was attempting to analyze the stories in regards to romantic vs naturalist premises in novels and the catastrophic damage done to a story by writing that is inconsistent with the theme. The analysis, at least regarding my story, focused on a particular line in the first chapter. One that I have never seen addressed before, but perhaps does deserve a second look. And, in doing so, it becomes a vehicle to expound upon something that a number of fans have wondered about: what pushed Littlepip to leave Stable Two, instigating the story.
As a side note, it is always rather rewarding to see someone put real thought into a story and its themes, and attempt to analyze them. Unfortunately, this was not a good analysis. I cannot speak towards Murky Number Seven, as I have not read that story. (It does sound amazing though, and I do intend to eventually give it a try.) However, the writer's analysis of Fallout: Equestria is seriously hampered by his having stopped reading the story after ten chapters (roughly, by page count, just under one tenth of the story) and by his attempt to forcibly interpret the story in accordance to his personal preferences rather than the actual themes and characterization in the story itself. (If you start an analysis on false assumptions, draw erroneous speculation which you then treat as fact upon which you speculate furtther, it should not be surprising if your ending conclusions are a bit of a train wreck.) Still, a serious "A for effort".
Respectfully, I am not going to link the analysis in question, and ask that no one familiar with it do so in the comments. I am not looking for a mob of followers descending on the person to tell him he is wrong.
The passage in question is this:
I’ll admit it now, I’d had a crush on Velvet Remedy for years. Me and at least three hundred other ponies.
First, allow me to briefly touch on the themes of Fallout: Equestria. The writer of the analysis held up a highly romanticized "nobility of heroism" as what he believes is the story's theme. And it is true insomuch as heroism is portrayed as noble, and the need for heroes is a major theme of the story. But Fallout: Equestria portrays heroism as something to be striven for, and Littlepip is a pony striving towards that ideal, not an embodiment of it. Of course, this is but one of the major themes in play. Another, perhaps more vital than heroism, is the nature of virtues. The story explores how important virtues are, how frail and easily warped they can be, and how friendship can act as a guide and bulwark against the forces that would corrupt them. A third theme is the classic danger that good intentions can lead to the most harmful of results.
Like many who "fall in love" with their idols, Littlepip didn't truly know Velvet Remedy. She had built a mental construct of her idol. She wasn't in love with the actual person. Instead, she had romantic daydreams about the pony she imagined Velvet Remedy to be. Littlepip, as of the telling of this story, has done a lot of growing up. She knows that her feelings were a juvenile fantasy, neither actual love nor directed towards an actual person. She admits -- to others but most importantly to herself -- that her feelings were nothing more than a crush.
During the course of the second arc of the story, Littlepip grows to know Velvet Remedy -- the real one -- and become friends with her. The romantic illusions are shattered and replaced with a true friendship. By the twenty-fifth chapter, Littlepip has come to terms with this, and has finally reached the point where she can not only admit her earlier foalishness, but take comfort in what has replaced it.
Littlepip's crush was not the motivating factor for her leaving the Stable. It was not (as the writer had suggested) her "highest value", nor was it a virtue of her character. It was, in fact, quite the opposite. Littlepip's crush was the character flaw that blinded her, allowing her to be manipulated in the first place. Even Littlepip did not believe she was leaving the Stable because she was in love. Her conscious motivation was to fix a problem -- she would rather act, sacrificing her own safety and security, than do nothing and face a life of having been the cause but not part of the solution.
Subconsciously, she was motivated by a combination of her Special Talent (which I will not reveal here) and one of her most driving personality traits: curiosity. Littlepip is not a character driven by romance; she is a character driven by the need to make things right and by the need to explore and discover... something that was utterly stifled in the world she lived in. (Consider that she didn't understand how anyone could get lost in a Stable, despite the fact that it occasionally happened. What does this say about the level to which she explored the place? Consider that the direction she naturally went in exploring new talents: lockpicking.)
It is the subconscious motivators that overwhelmed the relatively weak bonds holding Littlepip to the Stable. These were more than sufficient to push her to abandon a home where she felt unwanted, unproductive and ultimately hopeless. To abandon her family, which consisted only of a mother whom she feels disconnected from already, and her friends, of whom she had none. Combined with her virtue (also not revealed here), these motivators made her leaving of safety and her first step into the unknown almost a foregone conclusion. Her crush was something that she could, in the beginning, mentally point a hoof at in an attempt to justify what she was doing. But nothing more.
The writer of the analysis desperately wanted Fallout: Equestria to be a romantic epic about a heroine empowered by True Love, and for that emotion to be the plot-driving element of her indomitable character. But rather than fuel Littlepip's heroism, in the story I wrote, Littlepip's initial feelings towards Velvet Remedy only served to make her weak and desperate in other parts of her life -- to act as a barrier to friendship and a chance at love. A barrier that she would have to overcome, and as that line foreshadows, eventually did.
There is, I believe, a friendship lesson in that.
1396067 It works for the rest of us.
Don't worry, I do feel your pain.
I do agree with your statement here. Although I do love stories with romance, you did something that not a lot of authors do. You made the initial love interest into something more than just a goal for the hero to get. Velvet became her own character, contributed to the group and had her own flaws, goals and emotions. Too many authors love to just uses a princess as the end goal. Velvet was something far more. Littlepip is a great character also for the reasons you mentioned. I based my own character, Private Eye, around the same ideal of having a character strive for something. An ideal, a hope, a dream of a peaceful world. Yeah, I think you definatly have a friendship lesson here.
This is actually one of the things I really like about the story. Characters grow and evolve all the time, naturally, at their own pace.
I read the story and I never thought about it that way. My oh my do I have to take a second look at Fallout: Equestria again after this...curse marching band though.
Yet another amazing thing about FOE, just how complex the characters are. The simple fact that all those reasons were all playing out in Li'lpip's first major decision, all without being blatant or overt, and yet perfectly clear looking back.. it's amazing.
As to the 'analysis'.. wow.. just wow...
Saying something is bad simply because it's not the type of story you want it to be..... Yeah that is a perfectly valid reason not to read it, but to criticize it for that... Oh well..
Also MN7... damn I really do want to read it but... still to scared to start yet... I don't want to get into it unless I know it's going to be some Downer Ending, that plus I just generally prefer not to read in progress fics... way to many I've gotten into end up dying...
I salute you again Khat. Your story is pretty much the one that got me into ponyfics, AND caused me to spend countless hours (600+ at last count, i think?) in all the Fallout games.
I look forward to the day you decide to start another story, regardless of what it's about.
Oh, also...
1396067
"cunt-nuckle"
I am giggling uncontrollably at this. You sir/madam just made my day.
Oh, and...
WHEEEE FALLOUT
I knew there was something that bothered me about the review, but I wasn't quite sure what it was, or at least how to voice it. In retrospect, it was probably LittlePip's motivation for leaving the Stable. I guess I just got confused by all the romanticism versus naturalism comments.
To be fair to the reviewer though, 50-70k words is a lot of words when it's a work that you aren't fond of. Yeah, to treat it as a full-scale review is strange (I would have liked him to at least get to Must Go On, but you can't really judge the arc length of a story unless you arrange your chapters like The End of Ponies), but 620k words is a daunting amount, especially if one doesn't have a great first impression of the story.
Thank you so much for this. I've actually been in an on-and-off debate with this guy (who, again, shall not be linked
), and I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that his conclusions were preposterous.
I, personally, have always seen Littlepip as a Decon-Recon of the romantic hero archetype. A naive foal who is given a harsh taste of reality, and must take it upon herself to become a better pony. From what you've written here, I take it I wasn't too far off.
/)
Yep. Can't add anything. Summed it up perfectly. But then again, it makes perfect sense, with you spending a lot of time writing out the background of the story and all.
It's always refreshing to read such little essays from the author when you've just re-read the story.
Much as I still adore the idea of a Velvetpip, I always thought it was particularly obvious that Littlepip's little childhood crush was a bit of a character flaw. It always felt like that straw on the camel's back, on top of what seemed like a dreary, claustrophobic existence. Just an excuse, that one last excuse to leave.
It wasn't that wall that needed a mural. It was her, and she knew it.
That being said, the first chapter did put me off the story for a bit. It felt very casual and childlike, like it was a very light choice for her to make on a whim. I don't think it was all that well-expressed how much weight she had put into that decision, or how much had built up to it. I'm honestly not all that shocked that the writer ultimately concluded that Littlepip's intentions were as simplistic as they perceived, since those intentions aren't all that well-expressed until at least the office scene in the Ministry of Morale, which the critic apparently didn't reach.
Snipehamster posted this in the Fallout: Equestria topic on TV Tropes. I thought it was a good counter argument:
I would like to say thank you for your blog post. Even if you thought the analysis be “not good,” to defend your opinion instead of dismissing it as “trolling” is respectable and ought to be praised in itself. On the internet, a place of blind dogmatism and irrational bigotry, to have an opinion responded to with arguments—not the first frothing whims and imprecations that cross the mind, but founded arguments—there is nothing more anyone can ask for.
I read the blog post, and there were many moments where my first instinct was to shake my head and say, No, no, no, that’s not what I meant—but reading over my essay again, I realize now how one would think that as you do now.
This is not your fault, nor is it any other’s should he think the same way—it’s mine. It is my personal philosophy that should a reader ever take away a message that I did not intend, should he ever think I were saying something that I never intended to say—should he think these things, it’s my fault as the writer for not making myself clear enough. An essay, a novel, a poem must be able to convey the messages the writer intended to convey; and if the work cannot convey that message, or, even worse, should a message be conveyed contrary to the wishes of the writer, then the writer and the work must be said to have failed.
Because you took this away from the essay, you are right in my eyes to regard the essay as a failure. There is no amount of backpedaling that will be able to amend what I said and restore whatever integrity the essay may have lost. Like Victor Hugo said, should your romance be consumptive, you cannot give it the breath it lacks; should your work be born lame, you should not try to supply it with a wooden leg. And if I were to start quoting parts of your blog post and explain what I meant by everything you perceived to be fallacious, in an attempt to make myself more clear, that would be I attempting to give my essay a wooden leg.
But if there’s any part of this blog post that ought to be contested, it’s your refusal to link to the essay you quoted. Your intentions are good, to be sure (and I thank you for your thought), but you have miscalculated: by not linking to the essay you talk about, the reader of your blog post has nothing to reference except what you say about it, which he must take on faith. How is he to be assured that you’ve represented your rival perfectly as he is? How is he to be assured that what you have constructed here is the life and flesh of another person and not one composed completely of straw?
Thus, as the writer of the essay in question, as someone who wishes to have his essay perfectly represented as it is (healthy or not), though you have objected, I link it here, and I strenuously urge you out of respect for me, whose essay you criticize, to link it in your blog post. It is a public essay, one that I make no attempts to hide, and it would be unfair both to me and your readers to only present what you think I were saying when my own words lie in the open.
The previous paragraph, with its link, is in direct defiance of your wishes. If you delete it, I will speak of the issue no further. Delete it if you must—but should you do, this will close the issue in my mind, for I will take it as a gesture that what you desire is not to amend errors in a fallacious essay but to exaggerate and ridicule someone who merely has a different opinion than you. In such a case, there is nothing I would be able to do but to allow your straw man to flap in the breeze, fooling and coercing only the ignorant crows.
1396731
I see no reason to remove the comment. The lack of a link was a courtesy to you. Still, I can understand why you might want one -- whether to insure that you are fairly represented or simply to increase your readership -- and so I leave that decision to you. While the response I gave you directly was a rebuttal, the blog above was restructured to be a stand-alone essay on the subject, with the mention of your analysis serving only as a prelude and framing mechanism rather than an integral element to the argument.
1396667
You really do write the best blog posts.
But after reading this story nearly three full times, (I'm a philosopher that likes reading about moral dilemmas, don't worry about it.) I believe the main driving force of the whole story can be summed up in one question: "When does the line between your good intentions, and your need to make money become blurred?" -Suli Breaks.
Littlepip did everything she could to help everyone she could, but every decision she made was forced to be a compromise between what she wanted to do, and what she needed to do.
Velvet Remedy on several occasions cared for injured ponies who weren't exactly upstanding, despite knowing that they probably would go on to hurt other ponies.
Calamity betrayed and fought his own people, because he believed they were wrong and Littlepip was right.
Steelhooves. Nuff' said.
Xenith (correct me if I'm wrong please) volunteered to fight in the pit and to kill other (potentially innocent) ponies, because she deemed them a necassary sacrifice so that she could see to the remnant of her tribes' safety.
RedEye fought the entire wasteland trying to build up his city for a brighter future, but at a cost that would rival Stalin's atrocities.
The Goddess was fighting hard to maintain her children, and to find a way for them to reproduce. However it came at the cost of the literal sacrifices of pony lives.
For those who like Project Horizons as well, think about every ridiculous moral compromise Blackjack has been forced to make.
And I don't really care to post the long list of the moral dilemmas the mane 6 and the CMC had to face.
And so the theme I see throughout the story is every main character, the good and the bad ones, simply trying to do the right thing. They each just had different levels to which they would compromise their moral values, in order to achieve what they deemed a good enough result to justify it.
Deep down I think there really is something we can all learn about fighting the "good fight" from this story, even if it does take place in a vastly different land.
1396603
To put it bluntly I had the exact opposite reaction. If anything I thought the first couple of chapters were belaboring the fact that the main character needed to do a lot of soul searching before she could give a credible accounting of herself and that the first 16 or so chapters, that are still my favorites, dealt with the most interesting issues in the story- Littlepip's skewed perspective of the world confronted with the perhaps even more skewed worldviews of its jaded inhabitants.
Well now i'm getting flashbacks to school all those years ago and all those awards for "effort" and "good try".
It's like a backhanded compliment.
I suppose in some ways heroism is a virtue of it's own and like all the other virtues it has it's own mirror image like you describe in the story.
I don't think it's foolish to have a crush on someone even if it is a construct, Velvet has as much responsibility for that construct as other ponies when they perform. It's what performers do, they use constructs or a created personality to appeal to their audience.
It's how they attract an audience by drawing in their desires and bringing life to them or voicing fears and mocking them.
It doesn't help that Velvet is a character who draws upon her attractiveness to manipulate other ponies to get what she wants at times.
And Littlepip has a soft spot for cute mares so she really couldn't have done much about it.
It's even resolved in the story as such when Littlepip confronts Velvet in the Ministry of Morale building.
There's worse motivations for doing something heroic than doing it for a pretty girl. So I never held that against her anyways.
I mean ultimately it doesn't matter what her motivations were, they're just a springboard to fire out into the world and in her case try and fix it.
Plus she was shooting up bad guys in style, that's always fun to watch.
Y'know Kkat, you coulda given the link and just said "hey guys, don't be dicks, please." I make a habit of reading everything whenever possible, and now my interest is piqued and I have nothing to go off of. Well, whatever you want, I suppose.But, if you could be so kind, would you give me the link in a PM? I promise I won't troll or share it with anybody. I just really need to read this, now. Of course, I don't mind you don't want to.Has been sorted out. Nevermind that.
1397782 The link to the essay in question was posted in the comments already by it's own author.
Posted here: 1396731
Ah, wonderful stuff there. Even up to now, two years after I read the story, I find joy and new learnings in these analyses, Kkat. Heh, partly because I never knew some of the things you said until now.
I'm always excited to read anything by Kkat; not just because she's an amazing writer/author, but also because whatever she says is worth reading, even if it doesn't have anything directly to do with her story.
/fanmode off.
1396067
danm, gotta gree agree on that, thanks for sharing kkat!
even though i cant get what was the frienshid lesson in this........WHEE FALLOUT!
1396603
i personaly didnt though much of her behaviour at first. im not that clever when it comes to reading long things.
but as chapters progressed, i noticed her ignorance got her in some realy "OOOH! NOW YOU FUCKED UP!" moments. like having to wreck shit up in applelosa to save velvet.
1398573
...wat?
1396667
sounds like bull to me.
sufering trough an anoying, whiny character (even if i never though of lil pip that way...) is what makes her raise to be a better person so much more rewarding. (aquaman's Harmony will be good example of this)
true dat. except its not. its not like theres so much more to the story besides pip's emotional turnoil, right?
any inteligent reader should know that characters can change trough the story.
first time i hear someone saying FOE has any "filler" -as in the derogative way of the word-
that must say things about that statement.
well, FOE is aimed at the brony fandom, i doubt anyone is going to care about the talking horses.
negative one out of ten, Snipehamster. would not do.
(maybe he just got partialy blinded by his own tastes in horewrittings :V)nevermind, read some of his coments there, dudes an asshat.
i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/007/757/Tealdeer.gif
1396067 WHEEE, FALLOUT! (I'm in much the same boat here.)
Anyways, on a serious note, I'm one of those people who tended to think the crush was one of Littlepip's major reasons for leaving, but considering the story is written in Littlepip's headspace, it was probably me accepting her justification. But after reading this, I think I now have a better sense of that little pony* and how she works.
I love reading your blog posts. Always got a valid and interesting point to make, or just giving me warm fuzzy feels from the thank-yous and the like. Definitely seems like you do a lot more thinking about your writing than I do
*see whut i did thar hur hur hur I'm so funny
I thought she left because of the fear of social rejection, of everypony constantly seeing her as "the pony who took our Velvet away".
hi hi
Having worked at a newspaper for five years, I've been trained to look for the important information first. A big part of Littlepip's motivation for leaving the stable is described in the very first paragraph of chapter 1. Heck, it is encapsulated in the very first word. Grey.
A full page before the reader even knows about Velvet Remedy's existence, we are exposed to the abject, existential despair that comes with Little Pip's miserable existence; as well as her dreams of wanting something more, something better.
One does not need to read to the end of the story to pick up on this theme. One only needs to read a few paragraphs.
(Also: A label's worth is in its ability to accurately describe the subject, not in its ability to confine the subject to its own parameters)
1402769
You hit the nail on the head, I think.
My initial impression upon reading the story was that Littlepip wanted to right a wrong rather than live as an outcast in the Stable.
I didn't really pick up on how major her curiosity was as a factor, though I feel I should have, but the dreariness of the Stable life was an obvious motivator.
i read this forever ago, when you first wrote it, independently found and read IA's essay, having forgotten about this one by then, and now once again i've come around to this response. an interesting coincidence of circumnavigation.
Yeah... that does sound like something the show would touch on, just post-apocalyptic.