On destiny in the pony universe · 3:12pm May 15th, 2013
Destiny is one of those interesting topics for me, mostly because everyone has their own idea of what it means. A while ago, Digibrony posted a video about destiny in the MLP universe, and for some reason, I found myself disagreeing with him. It’s not the first time I’ve disagreed without knowing exactly why, but I can usually figure it out after analyzing stuff presented in the show.
Such was not the case this time. The topic has been stewing in the back of my mind since I first saw the video, and I haven’t been able to come up with any real argument against Digi’s video. A few days ago, I finally realized why I want to disagree with him, and it doesn’t have anything to do with ponies but rather a fundamental difference in our views on destiny.
Digi believes that destiny is a predetermined course an individual is bound to follow. Whether he believes this path is determined by genetics, environment, circumstances, deity, or some combination of factors isn’t clear, at least not to me, and doesn’t really matter for the purposes of this blog. I, on the other hand, believe that destiny is a path everyone chooses and builds for themselves. In other words, Digi thinks destiny determines you, and I think you determine your destiny.
I’m not even going to try to delve into the philosophical complexities here and argue which view is “right,” since a) I’m not qualified to do so, and b) I’m pretty sure the people who are qualified to do so don’t have a solid answer themselves (I heard this in a college science class once, so I may be off). What I would like to do is examine how these two viewpoints fit into what we know of the pony universe and also figure out which view is more prevalent in Equestrian society.
Let’s start with Twilight, since she’s the only character so far who’s “fulfilled her destiny.” Twilight’s destiny, according to Celestia, was to become an alicorn princess. I think Lauren Faust said in an interview that she envisioned Twilight taking Celestia’s place, but I can’t find the clip to confirm. Twilight became an alicorn because of her mastery of the “magic of friendship.” She is able to achieve this mastery because Celestia has been guiding her on that path since she took Twilight on as her personal student.
Twilight became Celestia’s student through a combination of circumstances outside her direct control. She has a natural interest and remarkable raw talent in magic; her parents were in a position to get her into a private, presumably elite school for unicorns; and Dash’s sonic rainboom triggered Twilight’s “god mode” (as Digi calls it) during her entrance exam. Based on this evidence, it seems Twilight’s path was chosen for her by innate ability, favorable circumstances, and lucky timing.
However, looking deeper at these evens reveals that Twilight’s own choices did have an impact on the outcome. According to Twilight’s “Chronicles” flashback, her interest in magic began after seeing Celestia raise the sun. She then chose to dedicate her childhood to studying and practicing magic, as seen in “Chronicles” and confirmed by the beginning of “BBBFF” and her general attitude toward studying, especially in the series premiere. Seeing their daughter’s interest and aptitude in all things magical, Twilight’s parents decide to enroll her in a school that will best allow her to explore her talent and interest in a topic she has already chosen to pursue on her own.
Dash’s rainboom triggers a strong magical surge, and while we don’t know exactly how magic works in Equestria, I’ve always thought it was controlled through thought (though Starswirl’s spell in “Mystery Cure” doesn’t fit this idea at all), and Twilight has spent countless hours building and strengthening her mental control over unicorn magic. It’s true Celestia calls this surge “raw ability,” but as I mentioned in my cutie mark blog, talent (which I think is what raw ability means in this context) is often the result of hours upon hours of practice and training—something Twilight has done.
I’m not saying natural ability didn’t play a role. She does cast an aging spell on Spike, after all, which can only be done by the “highest level unicorn” according to “Magic Duel.” However, it is entirely possible that Twilight’s dedication to magic made this surge more powerful that it would have been without the strong connection she had spent much of her childhood building.
Though not shown in the show (yet), Faust said in an interview that she had a destiny in mind for every one of the mane six (still can’t find the clip). The other two I remember are Rarity getting a shop in Canterlot and Dash joining the Wonderbolts. It’s hard to analyze these two in terms of destiny because I don’t feel like we know as much about how they got to where they are. For example, is Dash’s speed a result of natural talent and an aerodynamic body build, or is it the result of her choosing to train and possibly being inspired by a Wonderbolts show the same way Twilight was inspired at the Summer Sun Celebration? Or, more likely, is it a combination of both? And which one determines her destiny? Rarity appears to have a natural talent for finding gems, which helps her make awesome designs, but the reason her designs are so good is because she refuses to settle for “good enough” as shown in “Art of the Dress” and her “Chronicles” flashback—she chooses to strive for excellence and even perfection, which is why she’s good at what she does.
Let’s move on to the mane six’s destiny as a group. At the end of “Chronicles,” Flutters says the group shared a “special connection” before they met. Twi later states that they share a “special magical connection” when dictating her letter to Celestia. Digibrony connects these statements to the Elements of Harmony, pointing out that Twi’s magic surge during her entrance exam looks similar to the magic surge she gets using the Elements against Nightmare Moon. He also points out that the Elements match the mane six’s cutie marks, which they all earned as a result of the sonic rainboom that connected them, and concludes that the mane six were bound to the Elements long before the events of “Friendship is Magic” and that this path was therefore laid out for them.
While this is an interesting theory, I don’t really agree with it. I’ve always thought the cutie mark determined the Element’s form, not the other way around. For example, the Element of Kindness changes to the shape of the butterfly because its current bearer happens to have butterflies as her cutie mark. If Fluttershy had an ice cream cone or tree cutie mark, the Element would take that shape. When Celestia and Luna bore them, the Elements they wielded would have been moon- and sun-shaped. In other words, the Elements change their forms to align themselves with their current bearers’ cutie marks.
As for the statements at the end of “Chronicles,” I tend to think Flutters and Twi mean they and their friends had something in common and were unwittingly affecting each other before they met. After all, Twi says “everypony everywhere” has a special magical connection with her friends, and not every pony everywhere is connected to the Elements.
While on the subject of cutie marks, let’s take a broad look at cutie marks in general. They’re called “a mark of one’s destiny” in Starswirl’s spell in “Mystery Cure,” so clearly the cutie mark is tied to destiny, and cutie marks represent a pony’s talent. Digi rightly takes this to mean that from a young age, a pony’s destiny is literally branded on them for all to see. They have a specific role to fulfil in society, and this role is determined by their talents—what they’re inherently good at doing.
I’ve already mentioned talent being the result of dedicated practice, so I won’t go into it again. However, [url= http://www.fimfiction.net/blog/160994/magic-and-cutie-marks]readers of my blog will remember my proposal that cutie marks represent desire, not talent, which opens up room for interpretation. If a “mark of destiny” is also a mark of desire, it indicates that destiny is determined by what a pony wants—in other words, they shape their own destinies.
I can’t really conclude which view of destiny is “right” in the pony universe any more than I could do the same for our own. What I can say is that I think there is plenty of room for both views, both in Equestria and in the real world. Whether this was an intentional choice on the part of the writers or the inevitable result of the world we live in is impossible to tell.
So, which view do ponies tend to subscribe to? Well, “Mystery Cure” is the episode that deals most with destiny, and there’s one line that seems to indicate which view Twilight holds. After returning home, Spike suggests Twi’s friends will learn to like their new lives. Twilight responds by saying her friends “aren’t who they are meant to be anymore” (emphasis added). That word meant to me indicates that Twilight believes destiny is not a result of choice but of predetermination. After all, if destiny is what you make it to be, how can anyone say you are “meant” to be anything? If M. A. Larson had used another word—supposed, for example—I might be able to see some ambiguity, but as it stands, I have to agree, at least partially, with Digi—Twilight, at least, seems to see destiny as a predetermined path.
But hey, that’s just what I think. What about you?
~Scribblestick
^ There's your video. She goes into a bit more detail on the actual disks but sadly, not much more on that particular point. I don't even think she mentioned all six ponies's destinies. Ah well.
I'd actually gotten into a discussion about this with another friend, because we fundamentally disagreed about destiny within the context of the show. I (originally) felt like destiny robbed self-discovery of its value and meaning. If Sweetie Belle is going to end up with a singing cutie mark, then all this crusading is pointless, because eventually destiny will place her in The Ideal Situation, she'll have her epiphany, her butt glows, bam, cutie mark. His take was that destiny in this sense was elegant and a bit beautiful, and he liked to think that the Princesses played a role in things. Maybe not in crafting every single pony's destiny to the letter, but simply that they might nudge things for favorable conditions. They're facilitators. (I don't remember too much about his specific arguments about the Princesses' roles; this was a while ago)
This ties onto Spike/Twilight's "the pony they were meant to be" convo you referred to above. The example we latched onto was Dashie. Using Prof. Farnsworth's What-If Machine, we look back at Flight Camp. Due to some reckless flying, filly Dash breaks her wings (the tragedy!) and gets sent home for a few months. Eepysqueak gets picked on with nopony to defend her honor... maybe she still falls and turns out the same. Rainbow Dash missed her Cutie Mark Event. What happens to her?
Will she be a blank-flank into marehood? The show gives us no evidence of this (save animation errors), so doubtful. But what if we went grimdark, and Dash's wings were one-way-or-another permanently useless, and she could never fly again? How could she discover speed without the ability to fly?
Homebound, would Rainbow stumble upon a til-now-unknown passion for children's literature, and earn some form of literary cutie mark? That is, robbed of an opportunity to discover her primary passion, could a strong secondary passion, discovered at the appropriate time in one's life, win out? I seemed to think this possible, due to A) possibility of never encountering a perfect Cutie Mark Event for the original talent, and B) sure as Tartarus beats being a blank flank. But this line of thinking rustled my friend's jimmies.
He countered that this was the entire point of destiny. Dash is a fast pony; flying is what she was always meant to do. The Cutie Mark Event is not merely going through the motions; it truly is an epiphany of self-discovery. We've enough writers on this site to appreciate how important self-discovery is, in terms of character growth. And it's not so much capital-D Destiny that determines that Dash will be a fast pony; that's more an intrinsic nature of her being. Destiny, rather, helps ensure that her Cutie Mark Event will happen, so that she can have that moment of self-realization. Maybe her wings will prove surprisingly indestructable until she earns her cutie mark. Maybe, if Dash is injured, Fluttershy has a surprisingly easy time with bullies until Dash returns to Flight Camp. Maybe Dash will enter a race under some other context. Maybe Destiny will pick her up by the wings and fly her around in a circle until she has an epiphany. Regardless, she wouldn't perma-blank-flank and she wouldn't become a young adult novelist, because Destiny (potentially via the Princesses) would be fighting to help her discover her true calling.
That's why I wanna get around to reading this fic that I scooped off the Featured Box. It seeks to explain the Cutie Mark Events of the Magical Mystery Cure ponies (analogous to my literary-Dash example above) so I'm curious to see how well the author can make it all "work".
"They did it in 'Mystery Cure'" is now the only thing in the world that's a worse excuse for anything than "They did it on Star Trek: Voyager."
1081866 Thanks for the link. Now I'll always be able to find it.
This sounds like an interesting discussion, and I think I would take your side. Part of it is my interpretation of a cutie mark representing desires rather than specific talents, so I might argue that Dash's destiny isn't to be fast or a great flier but to relentlessly pursue whatever her passion is and strive to be better at it than anyone else. Athletics is probably the ideal setting for her to fulfill these desires, what with all the competition, but if she was for some reason grounded, I could see her applying that same drive to other things (perhaps foot(hoof?)-racing?).
If she missed the Cutie Mark Event we know from the show but was able to return to flying, I do think she would still discover her passion for racing and earn the same cutie mark, but I don't think we need any kind of destiny to explain why. It's not because she's meant to fly fast or because some great cosmic power decreed it so, but because her interests, passions, and talents will give her plenty of opportunities to earn that mark. She will keep flying fast because it's what she wants to do and because it fulfills her deepest desires, not because it's the path chosen for her.
Admittedly, my own biases are probably pushing me in this direction.
1082106 I don't think I understand the reference here...
1082287
Voyager was a minefield of half-assed hollywood psuedo-science.
Basically, "Mystery Cure" is as far from the original framework and premises of MLP as Voyager was from the original Star Trek, and I'm of the opinion that it really shouldn't count for anything, even arguments about why something ISN'T true.
E.g., Starswirl was one of the greatest, most powerful unicorns in history who invented numerous spells, most of which aren't even understood by normal ponies (reading between the lines from Nightmare Night, but still)... but he gets trumped by an 18-year-old Mary Suenicorn because he didn't have "fwends". This is the writing we got, people.
1082300 Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.
1082286
Destiny is what you make it, because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think you're destined to do a particular thing, then you'll pursue it single-mindedly, which will lead to you ultimately doing that thing regardless of some divine mandate.
Personally, I think it has more to do with what you were doing/feeling when your cutie mark APPEARS.
Rarity got her mark while taking in the glow of a successful costuming, Dash got hers while racing, Flutters got hers while comforting animals, etc.
It's a signal that you've found the right PATH moreso than it is that you're doing the correct particular THING, because images are nebulous and prone to misconstruing (Cheerilee, anypony?).
1082300
Yes but in this universe, for powerful unicorns like Twilight or Starswirl, friends are kinda a big deal.
1082286
1082313
Well, but then, let's grimdark my example even further, and turn filly Dash into a... hexaplegic? No wings, no hooves, no racing, no speed. She does indeed have a passion to be better than anyone else. She does eventually discover a passion for enjoying literature, as a consumer at least. She'd still be able to mouthwrite... would her limited options drive her to become the best writer ever? To outsell the author of Daring Do? Would that grant her her cutie mark? Would it still be a rainbow-hued lightning bolt? Would she have to Cheerilee the hell out of it to have it make any sense? ("It's a lightning bolt because my writing is positively electric!") Or alternatively, would this forcibly directed fate result in a more appropriate-looking tramp-stamp for the Michael Bay of children's literature? Or, is Celestia so omnipotent that she would not abide Dash to become so derailed from what her cutie mark "ought to be"? (Naturally, this last question depends very heavily on your headcanon of Celestia's power/role. My friend views her as a god-like, so this kind of ability is within her power/guidance. And before you inquire, his headcanon is that stuff like Chrysalis/NMM/Discord was her just chessmastering so that Twilight could earn the experience herself.)
That was primarily what my friend meant by his belief in destiny: that fate would align with you in order to provide you with ideal opporunities to realize yourself (like Rainbow leaping to Fluttershy's aid and getting into a high-stakes race as a result) rather than fate conspiring against you (as in the case of my hypothetical hexaplegic Dash)
1082738
I don't think our views are so disaligned as it might appear. And I also find it impossible to believe that Starswirl had no friends, especially if the Queen of Social Awkwardness can figure it out.
Oh, and Dash's mouthwriting is terrible, so for the sake of kindness, both to her and the public, hexaplegic!Dash would have been put down by the doctors.
1082738
Yup. Well, more likely outsell whoever writes Daring Do or [insert best-selling pony book], since that's easier to measure.
Yup. I do think she would have a different cutie mark.
I don't think I believe in 'fate' in the sense that it determines or influences anything. The way I see it, Dash's cutie mark event wasn't the result of fate but the result of her own choice to place herself in circumstances that made it very likely to encounter the event and her willingness to act when the opportunity presented itself.
1082791 I see Starswirl as an old grump that lost all his friends in pursuit of studying magic. But the other reason is that Twi didn't succeed just because of friends, but because she's insanely talented.
As to destiny in general a cutie mark is what you can do that no one else can. You get your cutie mark when you both know what you want to do with your life and how you can accomplish that by proving good at something. That's why Twi knows she loves magic, but only after her big power burst gets her mark. That's why Pinkie gets hers only after she the party makes her family happy, since that's her actual talent, not parties, they're just one method, just like baking. Dash does both at the same time, realizing she can go really fast and wants to do more. Rarity's is not just fashion design, but something involving bringing the best out in others which she realizes is something fashion can do when when gets her mark. AJ knew she had the skills to be an apple farmer, but wasn't sure she wanted that to be her life until she came back, then she was. Fluttershy fell in love with the ground immediately, but taking care of animals only became an obvious thing to do once she got the chance.
So I think that handles cutie marks. Yes your destiny is more or less set when you get your mark, but you do choose it. That's the whole point. It's very much a coming of age thing in the most direct way. Also it refects who you realize you want to be, and if that mark suddenly changed when you were already grown it would not be who you are meant to be at all, becasue while it is a choice it doesn't mean you would be likely to choose anything else, especially not as far off as in the episode.
As to Twilacorn? Once again quoting might max "Destiny is equal parts Need, random chance, and free will." Need is obvious enough, someone needed to defeat Nightmare Moon, Discord, and the rest. It didn't absolutely have to be the current group, but they are the ones that chose to help. It's only Twilight's destiny in that her power and skill has few limits, and based on taking the extreme risk of letting out Discord again, there is a future need for a great deal of power, and if anyone can ascend, it's Twilight. She of course never had to cast the spell, but Twilight loves magic too much to choose that.