Mar
16th
2013
Does reading tvtropes.org make you a better writer? · 2:54am Mar 16th, 2013
WARNING! Use of this link may result in bloodshot eyes, back pain, loss of sleep, malnutrition, constipation, and hemorrhoids.
tvtropes.org highlights common storytelling elements in books, movies, and even fan-fiction. It seems like it ought to be educational to a writer. Is it?
I've never consciously used anything from tvtropes. Maybe because the way it presents ideas, as overworked tropes, makes them sound like things to avoid, not things to try. But it might be a free, fun, fast way to learn about story structure. What do you think?
Usually, someone points it out to me and I learn that what I've done has a name.
It makes me more mindful of what I'm doing and why it may or may not be working. I could see it causing as many problems as it solves though, if one lets themselves be bogged down by it.
I don't think they're necessarily things to avoid, myself. I've got to figure every possible outcome for "boy falls for girl" has been covered. The only way you'd be able to avoid them entirely is to use a random generator to string words together, and you still might inadvertently put in a trope or two.
I remember once, many moons ago. learning that there are only four kinds of stories (man vs. nature was one; I can't remember the other three). That's a lot more limiting than TV tropes. Cliches--that's something to avoid. A trope? Nah. (Incidentally, I bet "producer from Hell" is a trope, as is "living among morals.) Were you unconscious when you wrote your story descriptions?
As a pure reader/viewing/player etc. I love TvTropes because it breaks down pieces of fiction into basic blocks, but that's all tropes are, bricks or building techniques for your story, what really matters is how you put them together. It could tell you when your stories gotten really bad, but not when it's gotten really good. So I think it's more for the viewer rather then for creators
Well, I mentioned in a blog post that the editor for my novel requested a write-up on my major characters, including what tropes apply to them. I found that to be an interesting use for tropes, using them to communicate what you're going for to people who are trying to help with prereading or editing.
As for story ideas and construction, I also tend to shy away from them as something overused, but at the same time I usually find the things I did were tropes anyway, so I think you're damned if you do, damned if you don't there. It might actually be better to have the tropes in mind so that you can make sure you're twisting them or hiding them well enough that they aren't blatantly obvious.
Also, I knew someone who was running a prompt blog for them. The point was to pick a show, pick ten tropes as prompts, and write a fic that used each of them in that fic. There's no reason doing something like that couldn't be fun (even if you only did it with a single fic.)
I study it heavily and Whispering Stars has already featured characters discussing tropes. The site's signal to noise ratio is bad, but I find it insightful to see not just the concepts themselves, but also how people react to (and misinterpret) them. I always have TvTropes tabs open for reference purposes. Right now, I have FiM's Ensemble Darkhorse page open, as well as the pages for Beige Prose, Brevity is Wit, and Oh Great, a Snark Index.
The things that motivate me to write aren't the bad things which I know I could do better, but the good things that I know I can't begin to emulate. Derision kills my urge to write; awe kicks it into high gear. I search TvTropes heavily for ideas that have been done beautifully so I can try to integrate them.
Actually, TVtropes has a disclaimer, that it is impossible to write without tropes. They are segmented components of a story that can be mixed and matched in a near infinite variety, to good or ill effect.
I love TvTropes. Your warning has come about three years too late, Bad Horse. Besides, a lot of my readership comes from their fanfic recommendation pages. Apparently, somepony thinks that I'm a good enough writer to have my stuff recommended to others.
I use TvTropes as an educational resource as well as an inspirational source. I look for things until I find one that I want to try and then I'll see what precedent exists and what gets recommended. TvTropes is a great resource. I did pretty much write the How To Write A War Story page.
I find TVTropes useful to link to quickly sum up a concept rather than explaining it myself. For instance, I just ended up linking http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InterfaceSpoiler the other day. Yes, on a fanfic review. Long story. Of course, you have to actually know that these pages exist in the first place, but I mean... you end up visiting 50 pages for each 1 link you see, so hey, you can bill that under "Research".
And yes, I definitely get a negative vibe when reading that site. "Here's your unoriginal idea, documented in full, complete with related tropes and a huge list of examples of other people who used it better than you." But it's important to remember that tropes are neither good nor bad; they're simply tools. You can certainly misuse a tool like a chainsaw, and you can certainly overuse a tool to the point of annoyance like a bananaphone, but so too can you craft a great story wherein Dash just so happens to break her wings, if you know what you're doing.
922733 Don't tell me bananaphones are a trope now? Dammit, I just finished paying for this thing.
922697 I didn't mean it as a warning. I wonder if I should spend some time reading through them. Like, tomorrow.
Re. everyone's comments: It seems the new site upgrade makes all comments thoughtful and insightful!
I like TV tropes, even if my writing skills usually fall pretty flat and the site hasn't helped much
922747
Nah, you just asked a question which demands a thoughtful response. You also tend to attract more cerebral readers. Some of the things you write, such as Fluttershy's Night Out, are actually rather mature character examinations. The site update just made me go "DAMNIT! I took all that effort to find the lyrics and come up with a translation, and it just quit on me. I must have been that Fegelein!" It has also pushed back a release of a new story I've been working on.
TVTropes, whether you use 'em or avoid 'em, are still being used by you, whether you realize it or not. There is, after all, a Subverted Trope Trope, as well as a Trope named Not A Subversion. Averted Trope is a Trope that's even more all-encompassing. You can try not using a trope or avoiding it, but you're still using one.
I think it's worth distinguishing between TVTropes' "So you want to..." pages and their general tropes. I find the SYWT's to be very useful, and I've been looking at their cosmic and existential horror pages because those aren't genres with which I have a lot of experience, even though it's on my plate for one of my projects.
That said, as much as I love TVTropes, I don't think I'd ever go there looking for story inspiration. That... just doesn't make much sense to me. I'm sure it makes plenty of sense to other people, but it's not at all the way I go about getting ideas.
For me, a story starts in one of a couple ways. One way is to see something in the show, fanart, or another author's story and latch onto it as something I want to isolate and talk about. That's how my Rainbow Dash story started – I watched "Just for Sidekicks", and I thought the world really needed a Dash & Tank story. Similarly, the existential horror idea largely sprang from GhostOfHeraclitus' "Disemvoweled One".
Another way is to just start with a piece or two I want to put in place and let the connections form more organically in my mind. That's how my Twiluna went. Step 1, read 922643's blog about writing crass populist stories and decide to shoot off a Twiluna story with salacious elements. Step 2, how does that work – ooh, Luna can see ponies' dreams! Step 3, profit!
That's how I get most of my ideas: either from a spark of interest in something I see in other peoples' work, or by grabbing a couple puzzle pieces I want to try and thinking about what the pattern that fits them together could look like. But how I come up with my other stories, the ones I think are much more genuinely interesting? I really don't know.
In any case, the idea of looking for ideas straight out of TVTropes seems pretty alien to me. I think of TVTropes as being more for classification than construction. I think working from their tropes directly has the potential to lose some interesting nuance, unless you're willing to let a few tropes just sort of simmer together for a while until their flavors start to mix in your mind.
922830
Letting the tropes simmer together until their flavors start to mix is a good way to use the site. Think of it like this: a character who can be aptly described in one or even two tropes isn't a character. They're a plot device, and not one that will carry much story. A scene that can be described in one trope isn't much better. It had better be intended to backhand the reader, because it's going to stand out like a sore thumb. TvTropes seems alien at first glance because classifications make everything look dry and simple.
I have a bad habit of applying my massive knowledge of story tropes(rules? I suppose you could call them rules, albeit ones with exceptions...) to stories, which results in my favorite stories being ones that don't follow them. My favorite episode so far was the gabby gums episode because the ending surprised me. I didn't see it coming, it was a different ending, and it gave a message without being trite. I love that.
On the other hand, my least favorite is "hurricane fluttershy". It was great for her character, don't get me wrong, but it followed the book. "flutters is too weak, training montage, returns, stronger, humiliation due to outside forces(embarrassment), big challenge, flutters returns and gives it her all to save the day". You couldn't find a more cliche story line ever, outside of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings(though the later made most of those cliches). Does it mean they are bad? NO! it just means I don't enjoy them as much.
Supposedly, there are only seven or twelve or some other ridiculously small number of stories: everything else is embellishment. TVTropes is that premise incarnate.
And I've spent enough time in that particular labyrinth to have learned a smidgen of the vocabulary, though not enough time to have memorized anything useful.
Longer stories with deeper characterization sometimes (for me) require a template (skeleton), onto which can be draped story elements. Tropes make good 'bones' the same way that Advantages/Disadvantages/Quirks work for RPG's like GURPS. Examples from my stable: Pumpernickel is a Determinator as a base, where Laminia is a Tsundere .
In Traveling Tutor, Green Grass is more the The Reliable One / Nice Guy where a Sustained Misunderstanding with Twilight Sparkle turns into an Insecure Love Interest and ending in a Maybe Ever After that should turn into a sequel.
I know that, because of TVtropes, I am far more aware of the various building blocks of a story, which makes me look at fiction in a new way. Other than that, I can't really say.
Also, it's funny as hell, and the reason I discovered pony fiction to begin with.
I'm a fanatical troper. I've spent so long on that site that I can now click on a link leading to a page on it with equanimity -- I've read so much of it that the clickstorm effect that people fear so doesn't kick in.
Does it help with writing? That's an interesting question. It certainly encourages you to think about stories not as big slabs of text that must be produced fully formed, possibly with them springing out of your forehead with a battlecry, but as something that's built out of bits and pieces. It sort of like getting what successive hierarchical decomposition is when coding.
TvTropes also helped me with my relationship with originality. When you first think to write, all ideas are new ones to you, and you skip and hop along a cheery meadow of possibilities every path seeming equally good. "Oh! Stories about ponies," you think with glee, "so many ways it could go! Why you could put a human being in this world, what an interesting notion that would be!" Then comes the disillusionment stage. You take a look around and realize, say, that HiE is not only an idea others have had, but a genre, one that's considered played out, too! And now the meadow's far less inviting. As the song from Hearts&Hooves goes "All the good ones are taken!"
What TvTropes teaches you with exceptional efficiency is that it's pretty much all been done before. Nihil sub sole novum and all that, and yet new things do keep getting made and they seem fine, fine things to you. So you reach the next level of understanding and you realize (to switch from paraphrasing the Vulgate to paraphrasing Sagan) that the beauty of a written thing is not the tropes that go into it, but the way those tropes are put together. And for internalizing this worldview, nothing's as helpful as TvTropes.
Further, TvTropes is very good for succinct communication. I'm a humble CS guy, and while I've attended a fairly robust secondary school (the kind that tries to hammer Latin and philosophy in you) I'm fairly impoverished when it comes to litcrit terminology. I can tell my bathos from my anaphora, but that's about it. So when I want to describe something in a story I'll almost always reach for a pithy TvTropes term. Like saying that Dotted is a Beleaguered Bureaucrat who's also often the Team Mom, and that his stories tend to be Lower Deck Episodes. That's remarkable informational density right there.
Lastly, there's something about TvTropes, a spirit if you will, that I find inspiring. Just the sheer Borgesian insanity of there being a TvTropes page (a detailed one, mind!) for entirely fictitious Daring Do books -- that is amazing to me. I like this view of media -- all in one place and interconnected, part of a dimly glimpsed collective narrative belonging to everyone. That, far more than any specific trope or collection of them, inspires me. It inspires me to be silly, sure, but there you go.
923087
Your description of "Traveling Tutor" is making me very happy I redid my outlining on Bell, Book & Candle.
Since I am a terrible writer, I can't say anything about that, but I know that TV Tropes made me a better reader.
I guess the effect has to overcome a certain "rump", that is, the first time you start reading TV Tropes you might start feeling that Tropes are simply clichés, as in stupid things that every creative work does and that should avoided. However, you eventually come to understand that they are more akin to Design Patterns, that is, simple outlines that can be combined to build the bones of a story. Furthermore, akin to Design Patterns, they provide a common language, so that you may convey certain things to people that understand them very effectively.
As a reader, I can comprehend a story much better by understanding that the "powerful item" was just a MacGuffin, or that a character is irksome because it was a Mary Sue or author insert, just to cite some of the most frequent. This frees me up to focus on the more important/unique aspects of the story. It acts like a magnifying glass, making the bad in stories worse, and the good better.
I'm just going to copy and paste from a paper I'm writing on this topic...
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While the typical consumer absorbs stories passively, tropers engage them actively, analyzing them and critiquing them as they watch. This habit of critical thinking helps them notice when a story is manipulating their emotions. Because of this effect, unskilled storytellers (including, but not limited to, the creators of most forms of propaganda) find it much more difficult to tug at their heartstrings. On the other hand, tropers can appreciate a well-told story in great depth and detail. Theirs is not the passive admiration of the consumer, but the learned appreciation of the craftsman.
Tropers will recognize character archetypes at a glance, while appreciating the new and novel elements that an author writes into them. They will spot approaching plot twists from a mile away, and then smile and nod in delight when the reveal is executed well. Tropers are fans of good storytelling who know enough about it to recognize it on sight, enjoy it enough to talk about it in great detail, and expect it from the authors they patronize.
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There's lots more to be said about this, but your excellent followers have said most of it already, and it's very late. So I'm just going to say that TVTropes can make you a much better reader (if used correctly), and I expect it can improve one's writing skill as well. Have fun; we'll see you when you get back.
I'm not sure I've ever consciously used something from TVTropes, but I'm sure countless hours of reading have had some effect on my writing. And informal literary analysis is fun!
Regardless of that, though, I've gone on to check out a lot of comics, books, films, cartoons and even animes after reading about them enough on that site, and those've been influential to some degree or other.
I disagree with regards to TVTropes' stance on its archive. Its articles usually don't convey the idea that their subject matter is entirely done to death or that some tropes shouldn't be used. Literary devices/tropes are, as TVTropes asserts, tools; whether someone considers one overworked is meaningless since such a viewpoint wouldn't diminish the impact, positive or negative, of that trope's use in a narrative.
As a catalogue of literary devices I find it helpful in learning about said devices, expanding one's knowledge of said devices and remembering they exist once you've stopped reading (assuming you ever do); it's much easier to remember something when you have a short term with which to recall the entire idea. I've never used it for ideas but I can see its potential value in that. On that same note, it can also help with providing tips on tweaking one's ideas.
Does it make one a better writer? Probably not, because knowledge doesn't directly translate to understanding or skill until you use that knowledge--we both know how that's done in this case.
Does that mean it's not worth your time to examine? Absolutely not. It's a wonderfully informative little wiki...
...Which leads me to TVTropes' greatest flaw: it's a wiki. Anyone can edit its articles and the only QA process is governed by the troper community themselves. While I will vouch for said community with regards to the articles' overall quality, I've seen my fair share of mistaken examples. Don't let that dissuade you from browsing the site, though.
TVTropes itself can't hurt. Hell, I picked up an entire plot idea from TVTropes, completely by accident. (NMM is a Knight Templar.)
The time you spend reading TVTropes, on the other hand...
But that doesn't really answer your question. So let's go this way: Does using a hammer, or shopping at The Home Depot (for example), make you a better carpenter?
922635 That still wouldn't work. They've actually got tropes about doing exactly that. Even TV static has a trope. There's no escape.
There's always the inescapable They Fight Crime! when looking for team-up ideas.
Bad Horse, thank you for making this blog post. I've enjoyed reading the comments that were posted in reply to it.