• Member Since 2nd Nov, 2012
  • offline last seen 3 hours ago

Admiral Biscuit


Virtually invisible to PaulAsaran

More Blog Posts932

Jan
14th
2025

MECHANIC: 2019 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk · 12:54am January 14th

Alrighty kids, I've got a fun one for y'all today! A 2019 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk with a four-wheel drive warning light on.

But first. . .


Source

You know what to do.


The drivetrain control module has two codes in it. C1496-92 PTU motor position performance or incorrect operation, and C14A7-97 PTU motor obstructed or blocked.

Both codes have identical diagnostic instructions. You're supposed to clear the code and test drive the vehicle; if the code comes back, you need to check powers and grounds and if they're good, remove the PTU motor, inspect the PTU for signs of damage, and if none is found, replace the PTU motor. If damage is found, replace the PTU motor and the PTU.

Simple.


Y'all have read these before; if it was that simple there wouldn't be a blog post. You see, in order to replace the PTU motor you've got to remove the PTU from the vehicle. You cannot remove the PTU motor without removing the PTU.

Now, some of you are wondering what a PTU even is. It is not a present trout for you.


Source

Sorry, Frosty.

No, it's a Power Take-off Unit, basically a transfer case. It decides if the Jeep operates in front-wheel drive or four/all-wheel drive, and since this is a fancy Jeep, it's a two-speed transfer case PTU, with both high and low range. Traditionally, transfer cases are mounted behind the transmission, and while on a transverse engine configuration 'behind' is a bit confusing, it's located after the right-side transmission output, neatly tucked up between the oil pan and the right side (or rear) catalytic convertor.

Very neatly tucked, 'cause Cherokees aren't all that big any more. This is why you cannot remove the PTU motor without removing the PTU; for starters you can't even get to the bolts for it, and even if you could, the shift forks on it are too big to lift it out, especially if you need to do some extra finagling if it turns out it's stuck in four-wheel drive. The instructions say that is difficult, but possible, to remove the PTU motor if it's stuck in four-wheel drive mode.


What does it take to remove a PTU? I'm glad you asked! All you have to do is remove the rusty exhaust pipe fasteners that need a torch to get free and some of which have shrunk to a size somewhere between their original 13mm and a current 12mm-ish. You've got to unfasten the motor roll mount and roll the motor, pull the right side axle shaft, pull the support bracket for the PTU and sneak it out between the convertor and engine, and then you need to slide the PTU to the right, then tilt and roll it and out it comes. Simple.

Here's as good a time as any to mention that Identifix has a lot of reports of mechanics having to replace both, 'cause they got the PTU motor off and found that the splines inside the transfer case had been ground off.


So I report all this to my manager, and he decides that we ought to pull the PTU motor and get a look inside the PTU and see if there's any damage. I concur, but remind him that in order to do so we need to pull the PTU and I'm already getting feelings of dread 'cause also according to Identifix, repair parts are hard to get.

Nevertheless, he wants me to press on, but he also wants me to get it out without pulling the PTU. 'Cause at this point we're just diagnosing it, so we don't want to disassemble it all the way.

After one last protest that this might not be possible, I press on.


They wanted you to check for powers and grounds. That's a thing I can do, once I access the wires, so with it up on the hoist I manage to get one easy heat shield off and then another that's not so easy (I don't get it all the way off, but get it unbolted so I can move it around and access stuff behind it). Can't get to the connector, so I try from the top. Now, I can't see anything I'm working with, but I can feel around and find the connector, which I can't get unplugged, and getting the intake snorkel off doesn't help.

After an hour or so, it becomes apparent that I need to remove one exhaust pipe to make enough room to get my hand in, and I do that, fighting rusty nuts (I eventually got all the exhaust mounting nuts off without breaking a single stud, which surprised me . . . as of the time of writing, three of them are stuck in not-quite-the-original-size sockets which got hammered on (fulfilling the '-ish' part I mentioned above).

That's enough room to get my hand up there and disconnect the electrical connector, and I'm about to test the wiring when my manager asks if I've removed the PTU motor yet.

I tell him no, that I'm checking the powers and grounds. I'd also at that point removed the fill plug for the PTU and determined that there was not excessive metal in the fluid, although I could not get a good enough sample to be sure.

He's in full micromanaging mode and tells me to just pull the PTU motor, which is impossible.


Source

Can't be done without removing the PTU.

He insists that it can be, and suggests that I should lower the engine cradle, and also says that I should have lowered it long ago rather than waste time working around it.

Problem is that the engine cradle is attached to crash bars which are fastened under the front bumper, and so I'd have to pull that to get the crash bars off and lower the cradle. Not to mention, I'd have to also unbolt and then support the rack and pinion, maybe disconnect the very unfriendly-looking sway bar links. Oh, and those crash bars are also bolted on underneath the recovery hooks and a support bracket for said recovery hooks.

But he's insistent and so I do. It drops down some but not all the way 'cause it's still anchored to the crash bars and by now it would have been faster to just follow the instructions and take the PTU out; all I would have had to do (according to the instructions) is remove one more exhaust pipe, one bracket, and a couple of bolts.


It turns out if you unbolt half the exhaust, roll the motor, and lower the cradle you can get enough space to actually pull the PTU motor out. Assuming you have the correct socket for it, which we don't. They're inverted Torx Plus which is similar to inverted Torx but not exactly the same.

Some tool improvisation later (the '-ish' is working hard on this job) and the bolts are out and it turns out that when the stars properly align, it is possible to pull the PTU motor with the PTU still bolted to the vehicle. Very difficult, and a puzzle to get it out of the confined space it lives in.


Source

It was especially difficult 'cause the Jeep was stuck in four-wheel-drive; remember this for later.


From what I can see, there isn't an excessive amount of metal debris inside the case. I can't see much, 'cause it's really stuck up in there. There's no obvious flaw in the PTU motor, either (no burned holes in it; the shift forks aren't broken). Some research indicates that metal shavings like to make it past the seals in the case where they get stuck on the sensor that tells the Drivetrain Control Module (DTCM) what position those forks are in, but I can't tell if that's a problem without disassembling the PTU motor and he doesn't want me to do that.

He does want me to plug it in and see if it works when it's not attached to the shift collars in the PTU, so I do. It fails instantly; I can clear the code but it comes right back and the diagnostic computer won't let me shift it if this particular code has appeared.

Belatedly, he also decides that I should check the powers and grounds (which he told me some time previously that I should not). They're good.


There are four statuses in which a part can exist. When it comes time to make a repair, the ideal status is that the part is available and in stock. The worst is that it's been discontinued and nobody has one.

There are two other statuses. One is backordered, and that means that if you want one you go on a list. The PTU motor is backordered; you can get one but in this case you're waiting a month for it.

The other status, which I learned from a Chrysler supplier, is 'galactic backorder.' That means that you can order one, but nobody can say when you'll actually get it. Such is the case for the whole PTU assembly with motor included. It's on galactic backorder.


Source


At this point, I've already spent far too long on this job, 'cause instead of just doing what the instructions said, I've been trying to do clever workarounds.

Sometimes those actually are time-savers. I've come across a few where the instructions say to do a certain thing, but if you instead do something else you can just fit the part out. One such tip from years ago has always stuck with me: replacing the coolant crossover pipe on a Shortstar in an Oldsmobile. The tip started out with 'you don't have to remove the transmission.'

And indeed, you did not. It was still a miserable job, but could be done without transmission removal.

Still, when you're experimenting on your own, sometimes shortcuts are anything but. Or, in the words of Ian Malcolm, 'Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.'


Source

You see, it turns out that it is possible to get the PTU motor out without removing the PTU. It is not possible to put it back in.

Especially if the PTU motor is stuck in four-wheel drive.


I tried, I spent over an hour trying. Several times I know that the shift forks weren't over the collars properly 'cause it wouldn't go down, and twice I thought I got it, but one shift collar wasn't in position. They kept moving around, and I was fishing around blindly to try and get them into position.

The only solution was to remove the PTU, which should have been done hours ago.

[and by hours, I mean days; at this point I've been working on this off and on for three days.]


It turns out that the instructions aren't entirely accurate. If you take off all the stuff that the instructions tell you to and then slide and rotate the PTU as prescribed, it won't actually come out. Whether that's a deliberate lie on the part of Stellantis or something has happened to the engine of this vehicle in the past, I don't know. What I do know is that it just doesn't fit, and no amount of cursing will make it fit. The cradle does have to be dropped to make it come out.

That was a more complicated procedure since I'd previously been working in a non-linear fashion to access the PTU motor without pulling too much; some parts which I thought I ought to remove hadn't been, and things had been tied up or pushed aside in a disorganized fashion. My manager's various suggestions were mostly not helpful; for example, he observed that two of the cradle bolts were still in (to keep it from falling out all the way, or as far as it could, anyway) and implied that I'd never tried to actually remove them.

I had, and in fact they were only finger tight and removing them all the way got me nothing.


Eventually, after another hour of disassembly, including finding out that it's possible to get the crash bars out without taking the front bumper off, I got the cradle out of the way and dropped the PTU. Whether or not it is possible to put the crash bars back in without removing the front bumper remains to be seen.

With it on the bench, I discovered that it is possible to put the PTU motor back on when it's stuck in four-wheel drive, but that's not recommended.

I also filled it with new fluid, 'cause I'd already figured out that you cannot actually put fluid into it when it's in the vehicle. Or maybe you can with some special Chrysler tool.


Source


There might be a postscript to this. At time of writing, the vehicle is still on the hoist and the PTU is still on the bench—I got pulled off it to diagnose another horrible vehicle (which might, itself, feature in an upcoming blog post). And while y'all might not want to know how the sausage is made, sometimes I write these well in advance of being posted.

Right now, it's Friday night, and the Jeep is on the hoist with its various mechanical and structural bits being supported by two screw jacks, one transmission jack, three ratchet straps and five bungee cords. There are fasteners and various automotive parts scattered across the hoist arms, my tool box, the workbench, the floor, and several boxes to keep fasteners organized by theme (these support the bumper and various related structures; these hold the rear driveshaft, these are for the exhaust, etc.)

Since it was disassembled in a chaotic order, I don't know the best way to put it back together. Can I bolt the cradle all the way up and then put in the crash bars, or will I have to have the cradle partway down and supported on a transmission jack and wedge the crash bars in that way? Can I bolt up the exhaust before rolling the motor back level, or not? I don't know, and it's going to make reassembly a challenge.


Source


And more importantly, a month from now when we actually get the part (assuming that the customer wants to fix it and they'd better if we've already gone this far in diagnosis) will I have learned from this miserable experience the best way to remove and reinstall the PTU?


Source


UPDATE!

So maybe I should have posted this as a part 2, but due to Jinglemas and Misgiving, this blog got delayed long enough that I've got a valuable follow-up! More valuable than just me saying, 'yeah, I figured out how to put it back together again without too many leftover bolts.'


Source

I got it back together, and the customer wasn't too keen with how long it had taken us to diagnose it; nevertheless, she authorized the repair and we ordered the parts.

Also in the interim, I looked at another one of these Jeep Cherokees that had the same codes, manager asked me to diagnose it, and I said, 'okay, I'll start pulling the PTU.' He walked that back real quick; I don't know what became of that Jeep. It might have still been under warranty; it was newer and had fewer miles.


Last Thursday (or more than one last Thursday ago, depending on when this goes live), he had me pull the first Jeep in--the parts had arrived. Previously it had taken me something like 14 hours to get it apart and back together again, in part because I wasn't doing it in a sensible order, and I'd never done one before.

It was like an hour before quitting time that he had me pull it in, and he said that the customer was going to pick it up Friday just before closing time.

I told him that I wasn't sure that would be possible, and he told me that he'd promised the customer it would be done. To paraphrase a line from a Tom Clancy novel, 'your demands won't make an airplane fly faster.'

Still, Chrysler Stellantis thought that you could do it in six hours or so [they also thought you could do it with the cradle on (they also thought you needed to remove the bumper to get the crash bars off)] and at this point I was fueled more by rage than anything else, so I tore into it with a vengeance.

And since he was feeling magnanimous (as in after a heated debate up in the office), he graciously decided to get me new nuts for the exhaust. The ones, you'll remember, that were varying sizes of 'nearly 13mm.' One of them (that didn't get replaced, 'cause he didn't see the need) was rusted so thin, you could see through parts of it.


Source

By the time we went home for the night, an hour late, the engine cradle was practically dropped. Would have been, except that I forgot I had to take off the rear driveshaft first. Also was kind of delayed removing the exhaust nuts; my manager thought that since they'd been off a couple of months ago, they'd come right off; that was not true at all, and while they did all come off with some heat persuasion, one of the studs didn't survive this time. Luckily, it was about the easiest one to replace [also, a day later I was so flustered by this thing that I touched the exhaust flange while it was still hot from torching out the stud].

I got in a little early on Friday and continued the teardown. With the driveshaft removed, the cradle came out and got pushed aside, and then it was a simple matter of removing a bracket which I had learned came out if you used a pry bar for persuasion and would go back in with a few gentle taps from a hammer. After that, it was five more bolts and then the whole PTU practically fell out.

Still a bit of a puzzle to rotate it enough to clear both the catalytic convertor and transmission, but it does come out.


Source

And then it was a matter of removing the shift assembly, which is much easier when the thing is sitting on the ground. It's also much easier when you've had more than a month of prep time to order yourself a set of inverted Torx Plus sockets so you're not trying to cleverly improvise a socket that doesn't quite fit as I'd done the previous time.

Soon enough, I had the new shift assembly bolted in and the PTU back up in the Jeep and at that point I lowered it down and powered it up (it was very angry, there were lots of important sensors unplugged) to see if the PTU shifted. I can command it in the various gears with the scan tool, and sure enough, it works. Not only can I hear the little whine and then clunk from the drive motors, but I also don't have failure codes popping up on the scan tool.

[As as aside, one of my favorite kinds of failure is the one where the code instantly sets—you can tell right away if you've fixed it or not. Recently, I was working on a Mini Cooper with throttle codes where it would set four of them immediately after clearing the codes; when I fixed what I thought was wrong the codes didn't immediately reset, which made me feel I was probably on the right track (and the test drive confirmed it).]

I coulda had the thing put back together by noon, but we were stuck waiting for all the exhaust nuts that the manager had ordered. Chrysler had them, but was in no hurry to actually deliver them.

So despite the fact that this thing was my one priority for Friday, I got pulled off it by the acting manager. I forgot to mention earlier that the actual manager had taken Friday off and was up North snowmobiling.


Source

This was also about the time that the customer showed up to pick up her vehicle. Apparently, noon was the only time she could get a ride.

To her benefit, the local public library is just across the street from us, so she went over there, and I went back to waiting for Chrysler to bring the exhaust nuts I was waiting for.


Her Jeep was done sometime after 3pm with everything working as it should.



Source

Comments ( 43 )

Eesh, what a delightful time. n_n

Great, informative tale as always, but I am prompted to crawl out of the woodwork and comment on this one purely to declare my admiration for the Pony fanart parody of the epilogue of The Empire Strikes Back. Just perfect, and while most such ones would have forgone retaining the sibling connection-to-be, I’m glad this guy kept it. More fresh thus the upteenth “slot the Mane 6 into all the prominent roles” direction, and Shining deserves some spot in the limelight too.

I do enjoy the tales too, of course. Just not much to add most of the time.

A happy ending, indeed.

I was expecting it to throw the same code once everything was put together.

I think it was either 8 or 12 bolts to take the engine out of my 76 Subaru 4WD wagon. And two hefty friends to lift. Fuji Heavy Industries made a heck of a rugged car.

If the customer doesn't authorize additional parts & labor then we get into the fun of Mechanic's Lien.

Voice of Experience

Never buy a car with a mechanics lien. If the owner thought the car was worth it, there wouldn't BE a mechanic's lien in the first place.

:applecry:

That's enough room to get my hand up there and disconnect the electrical connector

I was watching an episode of All Creatures Great And Small and the vet had his whole arm up a cow during a difficult birth. After years of trying to get your hands into the most difficult of places, which beast would you prefer now, the vehicle or the animal?

Every designer for a vehicle should be required to go into the shop and completely disassemble parts of the vehicle and then put them back together with the standard tools found in the average shop. Maybe then these fools would learn a thing or two about accessibility.

5826093

That's enough room to get my hand up there and disconnect the electrical connector

I was watching an episode of All Creatures Great And Small and the vet had his whole arm up a cow during a difficult birth. After years of trying to get your hands into the most difficult of places, which beast would you prefer now, the vehicle or the animal?

From my own experience doing both, I much prefer the vehicle. A vehicle's not going to be severely injured, or lose a calf, or die if you take the time to sit back and think, or work on something else and return to the problem tomorrow. It's also a lot easier on the person because unless you really screwed up, vehicles don't make sudden unexpected movements that try to make your elbow go the wrong direction, or try to pull out of your grip-- though the latter kinda happens and I ended up replacing a tractor radiator once because I couldn't keep a hold of the fan clutch.

It still gives me a bit of appreciation and happiness when I walk by a maternity pen on the farm and see a newborn calf that the mother had without any trouble.

On the subject of shortcuts that aren't, a year ago a service tech came out and after fixing a fuel problem on one of the farm's loaders at a remote location, spent several hours trying to pry a serpentine belt back onto the pulleys. The proper way to do it is to remove the oil cooler (30 to 45 minutes), then with direct access to the various pulleys and tensioner, pop the belt on (<5 minutes), then reassemble the oil cooler (20 minutes or so). Basically about an hour's worth of work if you know what you're doing and just put in some effort. It took me about two hours the first time at a tenth of the service call rate, and closer to an hour the next two times to replace bad pulleys (one worn out, one damaged from when someone tried prying the serpentine belt onto it...).

On the flip side, I've just about finished reassembling a Case 60XT skidloader I tore apart nearly a year ago trying to figure out why it moves so slowly when driving. I had carefully placed the parts on ledges in the machine, or set them next to it. Happily, the various Shop Cats (TM) had not used them as toys. Further, I was able to remember how everything went!

And then I pulled apart a spool valve, replaced the seals, and the thing doesn't want to come back together right.
3D puzzle from a year ago? No problem!
Simple pieces from five minutes ago? Fail!


Time for ponies.

5826102

Wishful thinking.

Companies are fined a dollar.

For each and every time a design violation gets in the way of customers costing.

So that a dollar for each totally unnecessary fixing variation on every common replacement on every vehicle involved, each time.

That Dollar doesnt look so small now? :trixieshiftright:

I just saw a video on Torx Plus screws the other day. They're an excellent example of fixing what isn't broken. The only reason they exist is to force mechanics to buy another set of screwdriver heads.

I had a blast servicing my Escort's Fuel Delivery system and ignition a couple days ago. The ignition wires (old ones got their insulation chewed up by mice) were not cooperating when I was trying to get them tucked away, had to take off half of the damn intake (hose and the manifold) to access the fuel filter (needed to replace the ORIGINAL fuel filter and replaced it with a K&N), and I had to check the fuel pump which required the backseat to be taken apart. I'm gonna be so glad when I'm done with this car's servicing as it's been nothing but a trainwreck. I also feel you with the galactic backorder, had to order a hookup linking the metal fuel line, Fuel Return, and the Filter (2002 Ford Escape), it is on backorder so I'm currently building a new connection with 5/16 ID Fuel Hose, hose clamps, and the OEM plastic hookups. Moral of the story, engineers love designing things to troll mechanics and rednecking parts is the way to go

It turns out that the instructions aren't entirely accurate. If you take off all the stuff that the instructions tell you to and then slide and rotate the PTU as prescribed, it won't actually come out. Whether that's a deliberate lie on the part of Stellantis or something has happened to the engine of this vehicle in the past, I don't know. What I do know is that it just doesn't fit, and no amount of cursing will make it fit.

If good old cursing doesn't help maybe try it the pony way instead: singing a song about friendship!

'Yeah, I figured out how to put it back together again without too many leftover bolts.'

How many is considered "not too many" in this line of work?


derpicdn.net/img/view/2022/6/28/2896728.jpg
Source.

I've read a few of these horror stories of yours, and the one constant that keeps coming to mind is how your manager still has a form of employment that involves vehicle repair. Because, honestly, he doesn't sound like he's actually qualified to do more than give $5 handjobs in a WalMart parking lot somewhere, never mind handle something as complex as automotive work.

5826030
Now (as in, today), with the benefit of hindsight, I'd much rather be working on that Jeep than the Jaguar that I currently have to play with.

5826209
Uh oh. 'Nother blogpost coming?

5826033
While I always intend to educate and amuse y'all with these blog posts, I do lure y'all in with the promise of pony pictures, for which I have no regrets.

I'd like to think at the end of a blog everyone has learned something, but if it turns out that all it was was seeing some fantastic pony pictures that improved their day, well, that's a win too :heart:

5826040
We'll see if my luck holds on the Jaguar I'm currently working on, which requires at least one tool we don't have. The good news is that I'll have it in two days thanks to Amazon, and then we'll see how it goes from there.

Based on the last time I worked on this stupid car, I'm expecting it to go poorly.

5826088

I was expecting it to throw the same code once everything was put together.

I would have cried if that was the case.

I think it was either 8 or 12 bolts to take the engine out of my 76 Subaru 4WD wagon. And two hefty friends to lift. Fuji Heavy Industries made a heck of a rugged car.

I helped pull a Beetle engine on a dune buggy once, that was like four bolts and three wires or something. Easy as they come.

Of all the cars we work on, I love Subarus the most, 'cause they're the only company who typically thinks 'how can this be fixed if it breaks,' and make allowances for it. Also they have some of the best technical service bulletins of anyone; their "Don't Touch that Screw!" is hands down the best I've ever read, 'cause it's humorous, snarky, and technical all in one. Haven't found a good link to it on the web, but if you remind me, I can find it in our service information and re-type it.

While I was looking, I found a list of all their service bulletins, and there's also one titled, ""But, Its New ....... "

5826089

If the customer doesn't authorize additional parts & labor then we get into the fun of Mechanic's Lien.

I know of those, but that's not a thing we do. We're a rural, Mom & Pop shop.

Rural enough that instead of a lien, we held a couple of one customer's guns until he finished paying for his repair.

5826093 5826121
Back when I first got started as a professional mechanic, my girlfriend was a vet-in-training (and she's now got her DVM and a PhD to boot). This was the subject of several discussions, and it came down to the following few points:
--cars won't die if you stop mid-repair, an animal probably will
--all animals follow the same body plan, whereas cars don't
--an animal might heal itself despite your efforts, a car won't
--an animal is a living being, a car is a chunk of metal you can replace

I didn't think of it at the time, but a car won't kick you/bite you/s:yay:t on you, but accessing its computer might be paywalled.

I've read James Harriot, own all his books, and even bought hardcover copies when they were on sale at the library because having a second copy is worth it. I had no idea that they'd made a TV show out of them. You might have felt some Harriot vibes in the way I describe things, in fact.

5826102
When I was working at Firestone in Kalamzoo, we had a manager for a while who was an aspiring automotive engineer, so we made sure to bring him out into the shop and point out everything stupid about every car we worked on.

On his last day, he shook my hand despite it being covered in oil and grease from whatever I was working on. I hope that he's doing well, and that automotive designs are a little less stupid because he's there saying, "wait a minute, how is this going to be fixed if it breaks?"

5826123

On the subject of shortcuts that aren't, a year ago a service tech came out and after fixing a fuel problem on one of the farm's loaders at a remote location, spent several hours trying to pry a serpentine belt back onto the pulleys. The proper way to do it is to remove the oil cooler (30 to 45 minutes), then with direct access to the various pulleys and tensioner, pop the belt on (<5 minutes), then reassemble the oil cooler (20 minutes or so). Basically about an hour's worth of work if you know what you're doing and just put in some effort. It took me about two hours the first time at a tenth of the service call rate, and closer to an hour the next two times to replace bad pulleys (one worn out, one damaged from when someone tried prying the serpentine belt onto it...).

There's always the shortcuts that aren't. Sometimes you learn from them . . . one of the best lessons I got when I was a greenhorn involved a serpentine belt. IIRC, it was on a 90s GM car where you had to pull the motor mount to put on the belt. I thought (wrongly) that there was a way to do it without removing the mount, and asked one of the senior techs.

He said that he didn't think it could be done that way, but said I should try, and if I managed we'd both learn something.

I didn't manage, and learned that on those cars you had to pull the mount or else the belt wouldn't go on. But I also learned that the way you've always done it isn't always the best way; some years later at a different shop I discovered that while Ford's service manual said that you had to pull the fuel rail on the 2V Triton motors in order to put in spark plugs--which was how we always did it at Firestone--the techs at the independent shop I'd just started at knew that the coils were bendy enough you could squeeze them past the fuel rail, and that saved about an hour on each one.

On the flip side, I've just about finished reassembling a Case 60XT skidloader I tore apart nearly a year ago trying to figure out why it moves so slowly when driving. I had carefully placed the parts on ledges in the machine, or set them next to it. Happily, the various Shop Cats (TM) had not used them as toys. Further, I was able to remember how everything went!

That's always a challenge! I do my best to keep everything in order on a long and complicated disassembly job, including writing in sharpie on bolts what they're for. Taking pictures is also smart. Not always needed for familiar jobs; you could give me a Buick 3.8 with the intake torn off and a box of loose bolts and I could get it together right in no time, but then I've done hundreds of them.

And then I pulled apart a spool valve, replaced the seals, and the thing doesn't want to come back together right.
3D puzzle from a year ago? No problem!
Simple pieces from five minutes ago? Fail!

I know that feeling. Just this week I spent far too long putting together the shift tube on an Econoline, which should have been no trouble since I've done dozens and it's not complicated, but it seemed every time I set down a part it disappeared, or didn't want to fit, or my brain suddenly bluescreened.

5826134
It's actually quite complicated, but the big factors are assembly costs and packaging. For most autos, it doesn't pay to think of maintainability, although that is a factor in the commercial market.

Living in the heart of Big Three land, we get some engineers and I've had a few discussions with them about why something was built the way it was.

Still annoyed every time they come up with a clever new fastener and I've got to buy a new tool to remove or install it.

5826152
I couldn't even make a complete list of all the different sockets/bits I need for normal work (and the ones that work more or less in lieu of the real ones). What's frustrating is the blend on a normal car; you'd think they could pick a lane and stay with it.

It's all a scam by Big Bolt :rainbowwild:

5826160
I've got mixed feelings on mice. Hate 'em when they nibble on my car, but as a tech they've earned my plenty of money fixing wires (or occasionally other things) that they've chewed. Their damage is usually easier to find than corroded wires, anyway, so it cuts down on diagnostic time.

Any normal service part ought to be reasonably accessible, or at least have a good excuse for why it isn't. Despite how much it sucks to pull back seats to get at fuel sending units, I still think that's a better design than the 'you have to drop the fuel tank' designs, especially when dropping the tank involves removing the entire rear suspension, as it does on some models.

5826165

If good old cursing doesn't help maybe try it the pony way instead: singing a song about friendship!

Maybe I'll try that on the Jag I'm currently working on. See if it helps. If not, fire might be the answer. The valve cover gaskets can't leak if the car's a smoldering hulk.

How many is considered "not too many" in this line of work?

Well, it really depends on what you're working on. Like, if we're talking 'holds the engine cradle to the car', you don't want to have any leftovers. If it's the 400,000 tiny black screws that held the dash together on a mid-2000s Jeep Grand Cherokee, you could have a few dozen 'spares' when you were done putting it back together and that was no problem at all.

Really, it comes down to the diameter and length of the bolt; the bigger or longer it is, the more likely it's important.


That pony has the same expression I have often at work. Also they do make magnetic wrist-straps and I've got one; for most of what I do it's not very useful, to be honest. It's likely to pick up what you don't want it to, and shed things that were magneted to it in the least convenient place. But I can see some lines of work where it would be very handy, and in fact I should probably try it out next time I'm taking off a transmission pan.

5826168
In terms of being a salesman and having a good rapport with customers, he's very good. He's at least tripled sales since I was (briefly) managing the shop.

And there are some times when he has a brilliant suggestion. They're rare, but they do happen.

I guess overall, he's not the worst I've had, but he's certainly not the best, either.

He certainly doesn't think through what he asks all the time. I'm currently on the pointy end of that with a Jag I'm working on which might be the subject of a future blog post. The diagnosis was straightforward enough; the actual repair is anything but; the good news is that I managed to get a concession out of him which he's gonna regret going forward, but he gave me an instruction and I'm gonna follow it.

5826211
There might be, depending on how great the current adventure turns out to be.

Boy, I never lack for material, do I? :heart:

5826232
Hahaha, you really don't. for better or worse n_n

5826217
Two different tv series in fact! (1978-1990) and (2020-present)
I think I'd prefer the s:yay:t to your experiences with some automotive fluids.

I hope you get paid by the hour for the micromanagedly absurd ways of doing things, not by 'the job.'

Now, I can't see anything I'm working with, but I can feel around and find the connector, which I can't get unplugged, and getting the intake snorkel off doesn't help.

It sounds like taping the end of a flexible borescope/endoscope to your fingers might help!

I'm surprised you didn't know All Creatures Great and Small was a (and now is a rebooted) TV series. :pinkiegasp: I agree, motor vehicles don't experience pain and can wait a very long time in a disassembled state until they're fixed. People and critters, not so much.

I'm surprised that a 5 year old Jeep could be that rusted and stuck in 4-wheel drive mode. Well, I guess fixing it cost less than new Jeep. 8^D

5826215 Sounds like the Idle Stop Screw

https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/12280-idle-screws/

"Correct. Don't touch it, you have absolutely no reason to. Even if your idle is low and you're looking to raise it, the ECU will just recognize that and adjust the IAC valve to compensate."

5826437
It is the throttle stop screw, yes.

It's what the Technical Bulletin says that makes it great (first, that it's titled "Don't Touch That Screw").

The Technical Support Line occasionally gets calls asking how to reset the Throttle Stop Screw (Often referred to as the 'Do Not Touch' screw) on the throttle body.

Be advised that the throttle stop screw CANNOT be reset in the field.

It is preset by the manufacturer using equipment far more expensive and accurate than the screwdriver used to mis-adjust it. The ONLY fix for a throttle body where the throttle stop screw has been tampered with is to replace the throttle body unit.

Another example of the 80%/20%-Rule:

All of the rest got done easily in 20% of the time, but this PTU requires much more effort and 5 times as much time as the rest of the job.

I heard you like car maintenance.
I heard you like ponies.

What's the chance you might be interested in this new story I just saw?

TCar Talk and Cuddles
A couple awkward young adults, human and pony, wind down after a long way of car maintenance with food and cuddles.
theboss092503 · 6.2k words  ·  29  0 · 280 views

And what if it involves playful bantering like this excerpt from the first chapter?

She leaned over to nudge him with her hoof, a grin spreading across her face. “Careful, Don. Keep running your mouth, and I’ll swap your spark plugs for duds next time you’re not looking.”

Donny chuckled, shaking his head. “You wouldn’t. Not to my FD.”

“You sure about that?” Her grin turned sly as she leaned back, twirling the fork in her hoof. “I mean, it might make things a little more fair. That rotary of yours might finally have a fighting chance against my S15.”

He groaned, rubbing a hand over his face. “Here we go again. Puff, your Silvia is nice, but let’s be real: it’s not even close to touching my RX-7.”

Cream Puff snorted, tossing the fork onto the coffee table and sitting up a little straighter. “Please. At least my car doesn’t need a rebuild every time you sneeze too hard. Your ‘legendary rotary’ is a ticking time bomb, and you know it.”

“It’s called precision engineering,” Donny shot back, his voice dripping with mock indignation. “You wouldn’t understand. You’re used to your clunky inline-fours.”

“Clunky?” Her jaw dropped in exaggerated offense. “You’re talking about one of the most balanced and reliable engines ever made! Meanwhile, you’re over there praying to Celestia that your apex seals don’t give out every time you rev past six grand.”

He couldn’t help but laugh at that, shaking his head. “Alright, alright, I’ll give you that one. But let’s not pretend your S15 hasn’t been on jack stands for the past two weeks.”

Cream Puff rolled her eyes, but there was a playful glint in them. “That’s called preventative maintenance. Some of us actually care about our cars.”

“Right. Preventative maintenance,” Donny said, leaning forward to snag one of the spring rolls from her carton. She swatted at his hand halfheartedly but didn’t stop him. “Is that what you’re calling the blown turbo gasket now?”

“Oh, you’re funny,” she said, smirking as she flicked her tail against his arm. “Real original. Remind me again how many times you’ve had to borrow my tools because yours are ‘in storage’?”

“Hey, I never said you weren’t useful,” he quipped, popping the spring roll into his mouth. “Annoying, sure, but useful.”

5826276
I do paid by the hour, which is nice.

Today I spent more hours than I should 'saving time' by going off the book.

At least it was more productive than the other mechanic who had to put an exhaust pipe on with the wrong parts to save time, then do it again with the right parts, and then do it again with the new parts that had been in the truck all along and the manager just forgot we were supposed to put them on.

5826309

It sounds like taping the end of a flexible borescope/endoscope to your fingers might help!

There are times where that would be really helpful. I do have a new boroscope on order, we'll see if it's finger-tapable.

One of my surprisingly useful tools (for A/C diagnosis) is 'thermocouple on a stick'. I took the thermocouple that came with my meter and taped it to a coat hanger so I can get it into tight spaces, and that works a treat.

I'm surprised you didn't know All Creatures Great and Small was a (and now is a rebooted) TV series. :pinkiegasp: I agree, motor vehicles don't experience pain and can wait a very long time in a disassembled state until they're fixed. People and critters, not so much.

This Jaguar I'm working on (the car, not the cat) has been on the hoist, disassembled for three weeks so far. It's currently going back together, so that's progress I guess. You'll get a blog post on that one when it's done :derpytongue2:

I'm surprised that a 5 year old Jeep could be that rusted and stuck in 4-wheel drive mode. Well, I guess fixing it cost less than new Jeep. 8^D

It wasn't all that rusted except the exhaust. That's typical; heat-cycling is its own problem and throw in road salt and uncoated parts and you've got plenty of work for the future. As for the stuck in four wheel drive, the failure is pretty common, it's an overengineered part.

5826834
I spent most of today beating the book on a couple cars, and then spending way too long on a different vehicle. That is how it commonly goes--it's worse if you're doing electrical diagnosis; intermittent network problems are a challenge.

5828069
As I'm sure you saw, the blog has been posted :heart: Thanks for the recommendation!

5829645

Since I 1st read this blogpost, I thought about how it gets more difficult with time for you to repair cars:

1 problem is the computers . The manufactures want all of the repair-money; so now, they keep diagnostic codes proprietary. Farmers complain that if a John-Deer Tractor breaks during harvest, they must ship it back to the factory at great expense, instead of fixing it in the field themselves, like their great grandparents did.

Another is that computer-aided design leads to greater packing and cooling efficiency. This leads to less free space for getting at things. It gets to the point where one cannot insert the thin edge of a razor into the nooks and crannies any more, let alone hands.

Those aforementioned computers refuse to let the vehicles run with generic parts.

An automechanic in 1925 had a much easier time than you do now in 2025.

5829646
Yup, I saw the blog.

By the way, when I recommended that story I had only read the 1st chapter.
As such I kinda expected the 2nd chapter would also have a more mechanic-related content...

Login or register to comment