On Matter of Historical Continuity · 6:31pm Dec 22nd, 2012
It's not the first time I had this discussion and I doubt it would be the last. Someone challenged me on this in Purity's comments and many people asked the same questions on Reddit. So I decided to write down in a more structured way what I think about the topic, that I won't have to rewrite it all the time.
If you don't like a huge bunch of rhetorical questioning or over analyze of a kid show, just skip this post.
What's the order of the historical events in the show?
The only real truth is: we don't know.
Until something becomes canon by being aired in an episode or a comic, it remains conjunctures. Laurent Faust or the writers may had ideas or plans, the show's bible may had texts about that, but until those are turned into a real show, they remain undisclosed information that cannot be validated or taken for granted. So don't take any of what I'm going to say for granted and keep asking yourself questions. This blog is only to explain why I choose a specific chain of events over another. It is my guess that the writers of the show remained vague on purpose to keep a sense of mystery over the Equestrian history and may not know themselves how the events should be connected to one another.
I have nothing against script writers, but by experience I know they often keep chains of events loose on purpose to allow them exit doors or rooms for expansions and modifications. The two best examples I have of this is the TV series Lost and the series of video games Assassin's Creed. The overall chain of events of those two series might not make much sense anymore as often the writers are focused on delivering the next episodes, not planning twenty ahead or taking into account hundred of previous events that might not have been established on solid grounds beside a foot note in the show's bible. Lot of mysteries on them will forever remain unsolved because the solution to it was never planned in the first place. It's easy to create a mystery, much harder to resolve it on a matter that doesn't collide with hundred of other mysteries sharing the same small universe.
What we do know:
- Luna was sealed on the moon exactly a thousand solstices from the events in the first episode. (Friendship Is Magic)
- Sombra was banished about a millennium ago. Give or take 10% considering we have no hard numbers... Knowing Luna helped, it was over a thousand years ago. Most likely a bit more to give time to Luna to turn into Nightmare Moon. (The Crystal Empire)
- Clover the Clever was part of the founding members of Equestria. (Hearth's Warming Eve)
- Starswirl the Bearded was Clover's mentor, so he lived before Equestria's foundation and may have been alive when it happened, we don't know. (Hearth's Warming Eve)
- Luna may have personally known Starswirl. (Luna Eclipsed)
- Before Celestia and Luna assumed the role of controlling the Sun and the Moon, unicorns were doing the job. (Hearth's Warming Eve)
And... That's it. That's not a lot to build a solid timeline.
What bugs a lot of people is in which order the following events took place:
- Celestia/Luna control over the Sun and the Moon
- Celestia/Luna ascension to the throne of Equestria.
- Discord.
- Equestria's Foundation.
I decided to go with a specific chain because geopolitical events never occur randomly. One event always happens because of other previous events. For example, the World Trade Center event in 2001 occurred because Germany's economical status was unstable following World War One. I could probably go further in the past and say that it happened because the Roman Empire felt. Following WW1, economical sanction was applied to the countries who lost the war. The instability allowed Hitler's party to take control as he rebuilt the country economy. His presence made WW2 possible. WW2 allowed Germany to be split into two and made the USA and the Soviet clashed over that in the cold war. The wars between forces supported by capitalists and communists reached Afghanistan. Ben Laden's forces were trained by the USA to fight off the Soviet in a third party conflict. The USA tried to keep control over Ben and to exploit him and his country, which with time led to WTC. Had WW1 not happened, I have some very big doubt that the WTC would had happened as we know it.
So, how to put Equestrian's events in an order that make them linked in a logical chain of causality?
I decided to put Discord first, because we have no previous event that could be link to his reign of chaos that would make any sense or without the need to create a massive story to explains it. Someone could say that he just happened, but that's not really interesting and make for a very weak chain. Also, if Equestria's foundation happened before him, I have a hard time to believe that the country could have survived and kept its historical root in generations of pure chaos. So, two choices:
- Discord happened before Equestria.
- Discord's reign was very short and last less than a generation, leaving the country stable enough to survive his chaos.
The way Celestia talked about Discord in "The Return of Harmony", I tend to believe the first option. With that in mind, we get Discord > Equestria > Celestia/Luna ascension.
We explicitly know that unicorns were in charge of the day cycles the moment the country was founded. Also, Celestia and Luna were not royalty or in charge when the country was founded, so it happened later. But what happened first? Did they took control of the day cycle before being princesses or after?
To me, it sounds quite logical that something made them take control of the Sun/Moon and that event led to their control over the country's politic. Or that a need to take control of the country forced them to do the same with the Sun/Moon. Otherwise, their control over the astral bodies would have no causality link towards previous events, which would make such a crucial information... A random event of no significance! I think the control over the Sun/Moon and Equestria are two events that are very very close to each other and may happened at the same time or with very little time between them.
So we get:
- Discord
- Celestia/Luna seal Discord
- Equestria's Foundation
- Celestia/Luna take control of the Sun/Moon
- Celestia/Luna take control of Equestria
- Luna turns into Nightmare Moon
- Nightmare Moon is sealed
- Today, TV show events
It's easy to see that some of those events, while having a logical order, have very weak links or none at all. How is Discord's defeat allows, or push the creation of a country? Why would Equestria's foundation leads to Celestia and Luna taking control? How being in power bring Luna to corruption? Obviously, some events are missing to create a solid chains.
- Discord
- Celestia/Luna seal Discord
- ???
- Equestria's Foundation
- ???
- Celestia/Luna take control of the Sun/Moon
- Celestia/Luna take control of Equestria
- ???
- Luna turns into Nightmare Moon
- Nightmare Moon is sealed
- Today, TV show events
I like to think that Starswirl actually helped in the fight against Discord and may have been one of the original bearer of the Elements. It would be interesting if Sombra had something to do with Luna's corruption, although in Planet, it's indirectly Twilight's fault. Or that even Sombra's reign was a result of something Celestia or Luna did. Taking control of the country may have destabilized the nearby Crystal Empire, leaving the door open for Sombra.
Purity deals with the first two missing links. Of course, anybody could come up with a better story to fill those voids, it's just my personal take of them. That's what fan fiction is all about, after all.
- My very long two cents.
Heck, right now, I'm just trying to figure out how old Ponyville really is. It seems like only around 50-80.
638406 Well... Unless you think Granny Smith is centuries old... Yeah, 50-80 sounds right.
... does it really matter? I just watch them as they come.
"For example, the World Trade Center event in 2001 occurred because Germany's economical status was unstable following World War One. "
Always the germans...
Some more you might be missing if you want to be exhaustive:
* The love poison incident and "something about a dragon, the kingdom falling, chaos reigning", with some people speculating that the "dragon" was Discord.
* The imprisoning of "evil creatures" in Tartarus.
* The loss of the old royal castle and the creation of the Everfree Forest. (Possibly a result of Nightmare Moon somehow, but how and why?)
* The ponies' first taking control of the sun, moon and nature.
One of my provisional headcanons is that Discord scrambled or outright fabricated the records and memories of the time before his reign. I doubt it works perfectly, though, especially now that he's supposed to be redeemable.
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I prefer to think Granny Smith's age can be explained somehow, but to each their own.
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* The love poison incident and "something about a dragon, the kingdom falling, chaos reigning", with some people speculating that the "dragon" was Discord.
Not much concrete on the love potion in my opinion, it could be anything up to a metaphor. Could be Sombra. There's simply not the information needed to place that info anywhere.
* The imprisoning of "evil creatures" in Tartarus.
What evil creatures? We only know Cerberus... And he's rather cute.
* The loss of the old royal castle and the creation of the Everfree Forest. (Possibly a result of Nightmare Moon somehow, but how and why?)
I'm pretty sure I talked about that? No? Weird. To me it feels obvious it's linked to NNM. I got some story idea I was going to use in Planet, but everybody is entitled to their own ideas on the matter.
* The ponies' first taking control of the sun, moon and nature.
Now, I did talk about that. A little bit on the above text, much more in Purity.
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Not much concrete on the love potion in my opinion, it could be anything up to a metaphor. Could be Sombra. There's simply not the information needed to place that info anywhere.
Like almost everything else, then.
What evil creatures? We only know Cerberus... And he's rather cute.
Just paraphrasing It's About Time. "That's Cerberus! He's supposed to be guarding the gates of Tartarus, but if he's here, then all of the evil creatures that have been imprisoned there could escape and destroy Equestria!".
Now, I did talk about that. A little bit on the above text, much more in Purity.
Not Luna and Celestia, but the ponies who were in charge in the pre-Hearth's Warming era, to the degree that the pageant can be taken literally. I regretfully admit that I haven't read any of your stories yet.
844102 Not Luna and Celestia, but the ponies who were in charge in the pre-Hearth's Warming era, to the degree that the pageant can be taken literally. I regretfully admit that I haven't read any of your stories yet.
I do talk about that in Purity. Give it a try when you get lot of time to waste...