Twilight Sparkle's friends have lived long and happy lives. Now their time is coming to an end, but Rainbow Dash, at least, will not go gently. Twilight has the power to save her friend's life. Is it worth violating the natural order?
"The things that pull at your heart—the memorial in the prologue, the wedding in Chapter 1, the births and deaths and relationships to come—are not the point of the story: they are the stakes, and the story is at its heart about a decision that must be made."
—horizon
Chapters (7)
Triple special ultra thanks to Baxil, my indispensable right hand, for his tireless and insightful work on this one. Double special thanks to Bad Horse for some vital analysis. Major thanks to Seattle, Snarkle, Caboc, Mestroyer and Vimbert for prereading and editing. Cover art by the kitstacular kits.
This is neither a original idea (People have already written twilight being and visiting her friend grave and this is BEFORE season 3.) or not even happening (The writer CONFIRMED twilight won't outlive her friend. don't get me wron it alright but it not exactly Ah worthy.
congrats on getting on EQ btw.
>>>“We don’t have all six Elements anymore, but there was that stuff you were telling us that time we beat Spike’s mom, about how all of the Elements live in you now that you’re an alicorn. >>>
Huh? But the Elements were never in Cadance... She had no connection to them whatsoever.
And Twilight, telling your friend that there's no hope of an afterlife WHEN YOU EXIST IN A UNIVERSE WITH MAGIC, IMMORTALS, TARTARUS, AND A GOD OF CHAOS seems just a liiiiiiiiittle narrow-minded, don't you think? Princess material my ass!
Wow.
I really don't know what twilight will do,but this is very interesting.
needs "alternate universe" tag because we all know now that Twilight isn't immortal in canon
Question 1. I think Twilight will continue to be wise as she should and continue to fight with Rainbow Dash until RD gets it or dies.
Question 2. What I said in question one. It is a terrible thing to live forever and a terrible thing to watch your friends die. Immortality turns into a curse, not a gift. The power she has as well, turns more into a curse and spends less time being a gift. Still... I am like most people, I believe. I try to see it from both sides. It makes me a little sad to think that she would end up having to choose between what is right and what she desires.
Question 3. Yes. I think Rainbow Dash is being very unreasonable. But she is also influenced by fear. So she is not wrong in the truest sense of the meaning. She wants to defeat that fear and accept her fate, but doing so is scary and it is so much easier to run away. Especially for a hot blooded fast paced mare such as her.
Overall I have no criticisms. I am liking the idea behind this story and have imagined such things before, roughly right after seeing the season finale. Plus there are pictures I've seen before of Twilight mourning the loss of her friends and putting them up as stars in the sky. Saw this story on EQD and figured it might be a good read. Certainly not disappointed.
2449295
You may want to consider reading stories before commenting on them. While it is true that there have been a good number of stories exploring the consequences of an immortal Twi, this is the very first I've seen that had the other 5 actually there in their old age discussing it. Every single other one has either been Twi remembering all the things they'd done together while visiting their graves, or the lot of them all realizing it shortly after her ascension. Even more importantly, I haven't read a single story that posited the question of whether or not /more/ of them should be immortal.
The only appropriate parts of your comment would have been to suggest the alt. universe tag and the grats on EQD.
>>>“There is a story,” said Luna, “of the six ponies who discovered the Elements of Harmony. One of their number grew to understand friendship so thoroughly that she made their destinies into one, and so became the first alicorn. >>>
Ok, this is clearly Alt Universe. You did watch "Return of Harmony" in which Celestia explained that she and Luna found the Elements to defeat Discord, did you not?
By the way, where is Discord? He should be floating about trolling ponies. I would enjoy seeing how his 'reformed' self deals with Dash if she begged him to make her immortal. God of chaos, you know; nearly limitless powers. He can literally make ANYTHING happen. And if he decided that it wasn't time to use his powers for good anymore... he could do some DREADFULLY wicked things to Dash if he wished to be creative.
And Luna only lasted a hundred years before going nuts? Good god, she's weaker-willed than humans! Some of us live to 120 and see up to 4 generations die, including their own children without going mad!
It is the young, the selfish, and the cowardly who can face neither death nor immortality, for they do not have the wisdom to deal with either.
>>>For every day thou spent laughing with thy friends, or watching their children grow, or learning from my sister, or mourning thy brother’s death, I spent a fortnight in a barren wasteland with no companion save my own madness. When I returned, I was a sad and broken thing. Were it not for thee, my mind would be shattered still. My life now is pleasant enough, and I have reason to hope it will remain so, but it was not worth it. Nothing could be worth that.”>>>
*bemused smirk* Luna, I should introduce you to the survivors of the Nazi concentration camps. After all they suffered, after watching thousands around them waste away and die or be murdered, after enduring torment I doubt your feeble little pony mind could comprehend, they could still say, "An hour of life is still life."
Luna, you are an utter coward. You truly are not worthy of immortality. As the Almighty Deux Ex Insert, I hereby strip it from you and bestow it upon... Derpy Hooves! She shall be the Princess of Easter Eggs, and appear hidden in backgrounds FOREVER!!
I am reminded of a very good book , titled the PostMortal. In it humanity found an injection against aging and it slowly changed society in many interesting ways, inevitably destroying it, because we're humans and can't have nice things.
I think Twilight's problem and the negatives Celestia explained are very much like that. Also I would point out that Rarity's answering 'that she would freely give the gift to everyone' explains why she would be a bad princess and in fact, all the other element bearers would also.
They are all extremists, slaved to their own element. Twilight is only the one who is balanced and thus able to handle being elevated.
Every immortal stifles a certain amount of creativity and drive to the universe permanently.
Rainbow Dash did the sonic rainboom. It was a huge achievement to be heralded. Now lets say there were an immortal pony from 800 years ago who regularly did rainbooms. It would no longer be special not just for her but for any pony thereafter. RD could have been the only pegasus to do a rainboom in X amount of years, but would not be the only pony. It would have cost her a lot of what she would eventually be. Rainbow Dash in a world with an alicorn who has done rainbooms for hundreds of years would NOT be the same pony.
The same thing happens with any aspect taken up as an immortal. A mortal Rarity inspires generations of ponies with her designs and as an example for other ponies to follow. An immortal Rarity who continues influencing fashion instead becomes a factor that reduces the number of fashion designers and puts a negative influence on the direction and availability of new and innovative designs.
That said it is a huge burden to add an immortal. It is a major act of selfishness.
Being a responsible immortal actually demands retreating from the active world in a way. IE you can't be a wonderbolt forever. It is NOT fair. You can't keep making new designs of fashion regularly or being the primary drive for music. You can occasionally put out a masterwork but to flood the market with the product of centuries of experience is to destroy the aspirations of mortal ponies.
So the question of whether the ponies should be turned into alicorns is definitely one that should be taken with the utmost caution. Of the 4 living candidates, Fluttershy is probably the one who could most handle it and would have the softest tread on the world. She could act as an inspiration without denying the destiny of other ponies in the world. Rarity is the poorest choice. I do not think she could resist having a heavy imprint on the world and she would take the position badly after a single extra century. Pinkie Pie is somewhere in the middle. I think she could be a passive positive influence on Equestria but it is debatable if she would want it or if she could handle it.
Rainbow Dash is the one here who REALLY wants it. Thing is she would mess things up permanently with her rainbooms. She would be the unattainable goal which would have a distinct negative effect on generations of pegasus dreams to be the very best. I do not see her living quietly throughout eternity. Man would it be hard to deny her though with her wanting it so very badly. I do think she could manage to live throughout time without going nuts though. In essence it would be fine for her but bad for equestria.
2449295 That doesn't mean he hasn't done a good job writing it.
A wise man once said "Nothing you will ever do will be original. The only thing you can do is take what you know and work with it."
To quote Eclipse Phase:
"Your mind is software. Program it.
Your body is a shell. Change it.
Death is a disease. Cure it.
Extinction is approaching. Fight it."
Celestia and Luna have apparently been sitting on a cure for the worst of diseases, and withheld it because of their own personal failings and ignorant views on how people work.
A person isn't designed to outlive their friends? Well, if they made everyone immortal, then they wouldn't have to outlive their friends! And if they were immortal, and with their immortal friends, they could figure out ways to cope with any problems. Strength from friends and family, unlike Celestia and Luna who are malicious and sociopathic idiots at this point.
All of Celestia and Luna's arguments can be tossed out the window in the face of basic arguments from science, logic, and the belief in the goodwill of ponykind.
It's a great shame that Applejack, and the countless generations before have died, but what Twilight obviously needs to do now is remove Celestia and Luna from power in some way, lethal or otherwise, forcibly ascend the remaining EoH, then have them start on everyone else. Exponentially dragging the planet up to their level until death is removed.
From there on, stop having kids(Instant solution for overpopulation and food) until they develop proper spaceflight so as to solve the population and food problem.
Don't be a death worshiping idiot. Kill that disease. No one worships smallpox, because we murdered it.
2449449 (Silvadel)
Nicely thought out. I hereby commemorate you with the title "overthinker"; to boldly think where no man-or pony-has ever gone before.
2449481 I say this, as for a lot of others. I don't want to live forever.
2449295
There's a reason why it's called a fan fic...
Anyway I'm really liking this story. I would imagine Twilight opts not to make RD a princess to avoid creating another Nightmare Moon. The challenge will be convincing RD that this would ultimately be for the best.
I'm guessing a chat with Cadence is coming up soon as well?
2449449
I am in absolute agreement. I would also add that two things
1. You would eventually get bored because time is meaningless. There is no sense of urgency to your actions anymore.
2. Rainbow would probably try to be an immortal Wonderbolt and no pony would ever be able to touch her and that would discourage any pegasus from trying, stifling any innovation.
As of now, when she dies, another flyer (Scoots, maybe) will see her as a goal and surpass her, thus moving progress forward. If things don't die there is no evolution.
2449551
There's a village at the bottom of a mountain. Every year, a dragon comes by and eats one of the villagers. There's nothing they can do to stop it, because they won't invent anti tank missiles for a few hundred years.
The dragon has been taking a villager every year for as long as anyone can remember. It's just another fact of life as far as they are concerned. They don't like it when it takes someone, but there's no use complaining about what can't be changed in their minds. So they accept that the dragon will come once a year. They try to justify it. It has to be there for a reason, after all.They arrange their schedules around it. Maybe even throw a little festival.(In honor of the dragon, or memory of the eaten. Who knows.)
And the dragon keeps eating.
So, in the distant future, when we have killed that dragon, whoever wants to go find its withered husk and stuff themselves down its rotting mouth to die are free to do so. Those of us without suicidal death worshiping thoughts(For what else could one call rejection of immortality?) will continue to live on. A universe to explore, lives to live, civilizations to meet. Things to build, science to do. We'll look back on the past and all be glad we're not you.
Okay, just to be upfront about it, I read about half and then skipped through the rest.
What I liked about the part I read was it wasn't just another 'Twilight is sad and depressed because her friends are dieing'. The last thing we need on this site is more angst just for the sake of it. Thank you for doing something different.
However, what I didn't care for, and the reason I didn't feel compelled to read the rest, is the central themes (death, immortality, etc) are approached too casually by the characters. Like I said previously, angst for the sake of it is bad and overused, but these are still some heavy concepts and the characters treat them like they're ordering fast food.
Same thing with the Twilight / Fluttershy scene. There's no emotion or depth to the conversation where Twilight basically tells Fluttershy 'Nope, no afterlife, you die and then rot in the ground!' I like the concept, but the characters and feelings definitely need fleshed out more in this story.
Honestly? If I was in Twilight's situation here I would just make Celestia or Luna talk to Rainbow Dash. They both understand the issue on a much deeper level and would be better at changing Dash's mind.
The biggest things grow from the smallest seeds, don't they?
Here we go. I've been looking forward to this. It'll be a joy watching the final version of the story unfold. Many congratulations to you for bringing this to fruition.
2449333 I think she's princess material because she's indifferent to their suffering, and therefore won't be traumatized by their deaths.
Good story. I can really see Dash acting that way. She's a fighter and wants things her way. She also doesn't really think things through very well. ( I love her anyway heh) Celestia might be right as far as most ponies not being able to handle immortality. Swift,who wrote Gulliver's Travels, wrote about more adventures than just the land of the giants and the little people. One place that Gulliver found had a race of immortal people and all of them were bat shit insane. Personally, having fewer years left than the ones I've already lived, wouldn't mind giving immortality a shot if for no other reason than to see what will happen next..
2449610
This story is hilarious. It seems to want to be some high concept piece about mortality, but instead it can be summed up in the below mini-conversations.
:luna: Oh my yes, I went completely insane after a mere hundred years.
Uh
:luna: So basically I was a mistake but its cool because nothing can touch me.
2449610 Those are on purpose. Dash made a simple request, which Celestia shut down immediately because she knew the consequences. And Twilight was cavalier about there being no afterlife because, even after 79 years, she's still a socially oblivious penguin.
Imagine dying. Now pick one.\
I'm willing to accept that there are situations, and only in extreme cases, that not being immortal would be the better choice. And by extreme I mean things like being trapped in a sun or something equally awful and unlikely to change.
Not so sure I'd apply that to what Luna went through, but then again leave me on the moon alone for a year or ten and come back asking if I'd want to stay for another nine-hundred and change or die and I'm not sure which I would pick.
Immortality is boring doesn't hold water. If you're really that bored design a spell to take immortality away. There you have something to do now, and you won't need to do something afterwards. And if we're going to assume that killing an alicorn is and always will be impossible, just devise some kind of mind blast spell and use it on yourself.
Death being a part of life is ridiculous. Death being a part of the natural order is meaningless.
Some ponies minds might not handle being immortal and could inevitably go insane (unless they're super special awesome like Celestia of course). Well good thing there are several other just as powerful immortals to deal with that instead of risking the fate of all life in a one on one duel. Or, rather, if only there was a way to cure alicorns who had been turned insane.
Overpopulation and food shortages don't seem to be such serious problems when magic is considered.
Anyway, Rainbow Dash is showing a lot of restraint. If one of my friends told me that I wasn't worthy of becoming immortal like they were and that they were really doing me a favor by condemning me to death while they went off and carried such a "terrible burden" I don't think I could be that civil.
RD certainly isn't going to be pleased when Twilight lets Fluttershy die for her terrible reasons. And she shouldn't be when her friend is telling them all to shut up and die because Celestia said so.
2449605
This story wouldn't exist were there a simple right answer to immortality. Feel free to have opinions, but stop acting like you're the only one who can be correct. Nobody will take you seriously.
Line=crossed. I'm so far onto Dash's side it isn't even funny.
2449919
So far I have yet to see any legitimate arguments against immortality beyond rationalizations(Though Windfox presented a couple of possible scenarios).
When someone can present an argument that's not based from unfortunate tradition(due to a lack of options otherwise) or some form of "Just because", I will listen. Until then, I maintain my position.
Also, reversed that -1. I try and make my arguments with words, not faceless numbers.
2449902
If magic can solve major problems like death, serious injury, food shortages and other such things, then it becomes a sort of deus ex machina. It's never a good thing if every little problem can be solved on a whim.
I like the idea of magic being an incredibly powerful force(more-so than we see in the show for certain), but for the sake of keeping things interesting, it has to be limited in some regards. Immortality spells are a no-no unless they have some sort of serious drawback or consequences of some sort.
2449919 while i do admit it has originality for that there are still flaws that don't make me truly enjoy, frankly i don't see why the elements would do that. and cadance the ruler of the CRYSTAL empire shouldn't it be the heart that merge, i mean for pete sake it on her flank. i can understand if magic merge with twilight (The image for the element of magic hasn't change even when celestia wielded against nightmare moon as seen episode 1 season1.) the rest eh... not buying it. though i do agree it need a alt universe tag.
2449363
No, McCarthy said she "won't outlive her friends", which can mean a variety of things. Although this story still does contradict that (insert joke about backround pony Applejack here), her claim hasn't made it into canon (and likely won't ever, unless they take the "elements of harmony become immortal/always were immortal" route), so this story still isn't quite AU. Death of the Author and all that.
2450006
Unfortunately for your argument, Windfox's post is a whole load of 'just because', whereas Silvadel put forth a very large post reasoning why species-wide immortality would be a bad thing.
Theirs alot to think about here. Would ponys go mad by being insane? Would it become overpopulated if they made the decision to make every pony immortal? Then if just dash was made immortal, I dont know if she could take seeing all her friends go. Even she could, would she be fit to be immortal and rule over equestria? Twilight is faced with such a conflicting matter. She has the power to allow her friend to continue living, any loving and true friend would immediately choose this option. A immortal ruler though has to look at it from another point along with the other. She could make her friend an alicorn and risk another nightmare moon situation or other bad outcome. The fall of equestrian society as mentioned could be a very real thing. Interested to see were it goes, friendship is the most important thing. Although what about that weighed against the possible outcomes that could happen to equestria as a whole.
edit- Reading some of the comments. I notice theirs sayings of "twilight wont outlive her friends, so she cant be immortal". Yup that is pretty much canon because a writer did confirm it. Although, if you think about it, what if none of them ever die? What if they all become princesses (I am not hoping for this outcome) and never die. That just off the top of my head but what im getting at is we dont know why she wont outlive her friends. We only know that she wont, whether that be do to them becoming immortal themselves or twilight not being immortal. Anyway, I'm enjoying the story and I'll be reading the rest when you release it. :)
Wow. All these people who refuse to believe that this the whole "everyone is immortal" thing wouldn't work out. People are flawed. People are terrible. In a world where the very fabric of organic existence has been based on a caste system, what would happen if all of that was ripped apart and everyone was equal? No one was set apart from the others, no one could lead the masses out of inherent superiority. Where everyone was their own person. It would be chaos. Bedlam. Anyone who thinks otherwise is incredibly naive and needs to ponder on what would happen if everyone on Earth was made immortal, under these same rules.
2450033
Tell you what. In the hypothetical scenario where scientists discover the cure to death next week in such a way as to make it free to everyone, you are free to turn it down.
I, meanwhile, in such a scenario, would eagerly take it.
As is, it's impossible for one person to learn all we know, or even see all the places on just our one planet because we don't live long enough to do so. There's that much to do.
If I was immortal, I could put in the time to learn all we currently know, explore the planet, and help to further science in the future. Beyond that, I could then go to space without fear of dying of age. Hundreds of years to reach one planet(Out of trillions)? No problem on even a sleeper ship. Immortal after all.
If any of these things took a while? It's not like I would age. Something gets boring? Swap to something new. Maybe take up a several million year long project. Single person planetary construction project maybe? New species need home after all. The immortal folks can hang out in spaceships. Take a trip to the other end of the universe. Outside it even.
Immortality is being able to do everything, forever. Mortality is being given one or two options, then dying.
2450033
Silvadel's argument is that it would be bad because it wouldn't make room for new people to shine, to which I say "So what?" I know that seems very selfish, but what's the more selfish idea here? That someone will have to remain obscure and overshadowed by you so that you can continue living or that someone should DIE to make room for your dreams? And couldn't we just solve this with, oh, I dunno, forced retirement instead of DEATH?
2450080
If it's impossible for anyone to die, who really cares if society functions? Is a neatly functioning society more important than individuals being able to continue their existence? And if the lack of a functioning society would lead to the otherwise immortal beings dying, don't you think that they would adapt to form a society that does function out of self interest for their own survival as we already do now? Wouldn't it ultimately sort itself out in any case? Either immortality for everyone is viable and it should be done, or it will fail and people will die, which they would die anyways so why wouldn't it at least be worth a try?
Now none of this is in criticism of this story, I think it's being wonderfully handled, and I look forward to the next chapter.
A very fun read, its interesting to see the dynamics of time and age working to what is. I really look forward to the next update.
I completely understand Dash's perspective, but she isn't considering the huge picture. Not the big picture, the one a few steps up, and maybe the picture below it as well.
Twilight is in a very awkward position, where the right choice in the sense of the huge picture is also the more difficult choice in the relatively-small picture.
A deliciously thought-provoking work. Kudos.
2450137
I do see Twilight's dilemma here, but I don't think you can simply say that Dash just isn't looking at the big picture here. If I was in Dash's position, even if I completely understood Twilight's position and saw the truth in her argument, I don't think I could ever resign myself to death when the alternative of living forever was right there. My mind hits a brick wall with that, my selflessness and concern for the greater wellbeing totally breaks down when I do the math on me living indefinitely vs. me dying soon. That's something I don't think people appreciate or even realize, that both parties, with contrary decisions, could both be right.
2450118 While I will admit that we will never truly know, that doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't work in this case. There needs to be a leader. Someone above the rest. The Princesses do just that, and they are above the rest because they have dominion over such things as the freaking Sun. Only gods do that kind of stuff. And for good reason. What happens when everyone is an alicorn? "I'm the Princess of That Blade of Grass Over There." Alicorns are not something to take lightly, and, through other forms of media, we can speculate how far we can artificially evolve ourselves before it all comes crashing down. There has to be something to seperate the average from the great, or else we have... something. Examples include: FEV from Fallout, everything that happened in Rapture from Bioshock, the Deus Ex series... the list goes on.
This is remarkably well written. You've portrayed each of the characters perfectly and thought up believable ones of your own. Bravo.
On an off note, could you have Discord make an appearance? I would like to know what you'd have him think on this whole matter, him being the only other immortal creature in this world. (At least I'm assuming he's immortal, considering he fought with Celestia and Luna since the beginning and contains more power than the two of them combined.)
Change to "Alternate Universe", please. It was stated that Twilight will not outlive her friends.
2450179
And then a bunch of people die, some survive, and they reformulate society again. Either way you die, but at least one of the ways, you at least experimented to see if it would work.
"There has to be something to seperate the average from the great"
How about ability? Celestia and Luna can keep throwing the sun and the moon around to their hearts delight. I don't see why everyone else has to die for them to do that. So what if you're the "princess of that blade of grass over there"? You're not exactly getting in the way of anything are you? The big players will still be doing what they want/feel they need to do. And how much of what we're doing on a day to day basis is due to the thought that we better do it now since we have finite lives, really? I don't go to work every day because I'm motivated to get as much done before I die as I can. I'm motivated by bills. I like living and having fun and I have to work for those things. My human lifespan doesn't factor into the equation at all.
I can't imagine being immortal being that great. Sure you could try to learn everything, but eventually it would just become dull and nothing would catch your interest after a while. You would just become tired of learning. Sure living with your best friends and love ones forever would be great...until you got tired of each other. Sure you pool your time into creating fantastic music and art, but creativity isn't an endless pool. Eventually you will descend into complete mediocrity.
Eventually everything dies, even universes. So that means you eventually live until the end of the universe. And that will be what? Hundreds, thousands of billions of years? Can you imagine living that long? Will you die when the universe ends or live in the new universe that will replace it? Or maybe travel to a different, younger universe? Only to live on and on until that one ends too? And do it again and again and again. Immortality doesn't sound that fun.
Bitch slap the unicorn princess' and get with the cheating death already. This is not up for debate. Also you're forgetting someone, AREN'T YOU.
I see a lot of people siding with the 'Immortality for everyone!', but they may well be missing one of the major points.
The one Luna made was deep, insightful, and well thought out. More importantly... it's probably one of the most important reasons to keep the club exclusive and only with the most rigorous of tests allow entry. Luna doesn't want to be immortal. She was given it by Celestia, out of love, but it quickly turned sour. She almost destroyed all life because she couldn't handle it, and through a thousand years of isolation, it was only because of the EoH that she may be better, but who knows for how long. She can't die (though I think she still would prefer it), and she may well be a permanent threat to all life, but there's no option. Even if she wishes it, she can't bring an end to her existence.
Dash, and apparently Rarity, would seek to spread the gift, heedless of the problems it could pose, or if it's truly what people want, or could handle. She would repeat Celestia's mistake, and possibly create dozens of Lunas, dozens of Nightmare Moons. Of the current alicorns, there may well be a very high chance of that happening, both Cadence and Twilight are still living through their mortal timespan. Even they may not be able to handle eternity, as only those that face it, and experience it, could tell for sure.
2450283
Hey here's an idea. That guy, y'know the one, mix and match limbs and probably fondly recalls the phrase 'Q, get off my ship!' when he's feeling bored of technicolor horse land? Let's have that guy do something about this problem. Or how about problems...
Like say forcing Ms. Listens To Cure Albums to have a nice long chat with a few alternate versions of herself and her dear sister on the matter of life and death. While those two demiurges are indisposed actual progress towards a better future, ANY future can be immediately had.
Fuck the police.
2450090
:iloveyou:
2450090
Ultimate minecraft experience