Chapter 15: The Mare Who Would Not Be Queen
Celestia and Applejack touched down, quite appropriately, in the middle of nowhere. They appeared on a nebulous strip of land where desert became beach, with an empty plain at their back and an ocean ahead of them. One horizon framed a sea of sand and reflected another that bordered endless blue waters. They were all alone out there. Not much was to be found here in either universe.
Celestia felt a puff of air on her neck. Applejack had been holding her breath for the jump. Now she drew away, almost hopping backwards to get to a safe distance, while Celestia had a look around.
"Where's this?" asked Applejack.
"The southwestern edge of the continent," said Celestia, "If this place ever had a name, it's been forgotten."
Applejack remained silent, most likely calculating just how far they'd traveled in the span of the last few seconds. If she figured out the mileage, she made no comment on it.
The terrain was not entirely flat. Further up on the beach to their left, grains of sand, pebbles, rocks and boulders formed the imperceptible steps of a stairway leading all the way to the horizon, where the ground grew into cliffs. It was good that some monument to the land's ancient geography remained. At some point in the past, the rockface had marked the coastline, but it was a long way from water now. Further outcroppings of stone among the dunes marked, perhaps, the former locations of little islets that had been swallowed by the earth when the sea receded.
"Hmh, well, you can drop the act now."
"I'm sorry?" said Celestia, turning her attention from the distant cliffs back to Applejack.
"This isn't what you really look like, is it? You gonna show me the real thing or what?"
Celestia frowned and hesitated, but had no real cause to object. It was time to drop the guise of the normal, little pink-maned pony she'd maintained since Everfree City. With a mild glow from her horn, she revealed her true form and returned to a familiar, higher perspective.
Applejack suddenly found herself looking almost straight up, and seemed to be resisting the urge to take several more steps back.
"Ah," she said, warily eyeing Celestia's colorful mane and tail, "Well. I thought you'd be..."
"Taller?" suggested Celestia with a slight smile, but already she bent her neck to try to appear less intimidating. Judging by the curve of Applejack's mouth, she wasn't exactly succeeding.
Somewhere at the back of her mind, Celestia found it curious that Applejack had tolerated this disguise while they were in the midst of her compatriots, but that was not something she could concern herself with at length.
"Do you see those cliffs?" Celestia began walking in their direction. "We might as well start looking over there."
She could hear Applejack's hoofsteps following. "So who or what are we looking for here, exactly?" Applejack asked.
Celestia had to take a moment before answering. She knew that her objectives here were somewhat tenuous, and even though Applejack had invited herself to come along, Celestia didn't want to make it seem like a waste of time.
"We're looking for the most celebrated pony prophet of the ancient world – the Oracle of Equ, she's sometimes called. We don't know a lot about her in modern day, not even her name, but it's a matter of historical record that she inhabited this coast toward the end of her life."
"And you're hoping to find artifacts or such? Do you really think there's actual useful intelligence to be found?"
"She's known to have made a great many prophecies applying to both her own time and the far future. I can vouch for the accuracy of at least one myself."
"Have you, uh, met her?" Applejack's brow was almost comically furrowed asking this.
"She lived a little before my time."
"Hmh. That's a lot of trust to put in some legendary unicorn's fancy magics, isn't it?"
"Oh no. History never retained this oracle's name, but we do know her race. She was an earth pony."
Applejack snorted, but only after a brief shocked silence. "How's that possible?"
Celestia wasn't surprised that she'd be skeptical. This wasn't commonly known in the first place, and she suspected that the Equestrian Empire's overall level of education regarding the racial heritage of earth ponies and what made them special by their own right was rather lacking.
"There is magic in all ponies. In earth ponies, it manifests as a tendency for increased strength, a powerful constitution and an affinity for the land and the things that grow in it. Queen Celestia has to keep your people plowing the fields because unicorns and pegasi wouldn't be able to produce enough to keep the population alive in this climate – and they'd have a harder time staying alive."
"I've never seen a farmer cast a spell in my life!"
"There are subtler forms of magic than spells, hexes and curses. Sometimes, it's as natural as breathing, and hard to notice when it's happening. I wouldn't want to credit magic too much, of course. When it comes to farming, there's just as much skill involved, and traditions that have passed on agricultural expertise."
"And what does all that have to do with predicting the future?"
"Well, in some rare cases, the magic in our blood manifests differently, as a sixth sense that gives ponies premonitions or visions, or even an ability to connect with the minds of others. Not every every seer can do what they think or say they can do, but it's not unheard of. Earth ponies in particular tend to display such gifts."
Celestia had not chosen the best of words. Applejack scowled and looked off to the horizon, her mouth clamped firmly shut.
All Celestia had wanted to do was to defuse Applejack's distrust by affirming that her people were deserving of respect and that each earth pony could feel proud of being an earth pony, but all she'd succeeded in doing was reminding her of how they didn't have that respect and any pride they felt was stamped down as a matter of course. She'd tried her best to speak mildly, gently, friendlily – wasn't it obvious that she'd been cloying and patronizing? How could Celestia, with all her maturity and experience, still make such mistakes?
So it went, time and time again.
Some ponies didn't like Celestia. Surely Applejack had that right, the right to hate her outright even, but it still bothered her. It was a niggling little irritation in her chest that just wouldn't go away.
It was so silly, wasn't it? Celestia felt annoyed with herself for the annoyance she felt. She thought it was childish to think Applejack was being childish. She wished she could laugh it off.
Was it manipulative to want somepony to like you? Was it arrogant to think that the reasons so many had for disliking you didn't really make sense?
Ah, well. In the grand scheme of things, such feelings were rather insignificant.
For that matter, there were much more constructive and provocative ways to engage Applejack.
"Tell me, if Equestria held an election, who would you vote for?"
"Huh?" Applejack peered at her sideways.
"Have you given it any thought? You've worked hard to tear down the existing government, but what should take its place? Who would be qualified to rule Equestria, in your opinion?"
"Uhm," said Applejack.
Once Celestia was sure that Applejack did not have an answer ready, she went on. "There might be earth ponies who are respected village elders, pegasi who've made it in middle management, but they wouldn't know much about governance. The only ones with experience in administration and legislation will be unicorns – ponies who have as much to unlearn about ruling a nation as others have to learn. And there's so much else to consider. How many prospective leaders will stand up to lead when when they've been conditioned to keep their heads down by generations of repression? How will candidates establish and distinguish their platforms when most ponies have no concept of open political discourse? I'm curious who you would vote for because the average voter is going to have a much vaguer idea of the process and the result than you would. To be honest, I think you would be more suited to be a candidate than just a voter."
Applejack's eyes widened at that, but Celestia couldn't believe the idea was new to her. If she hadn't wondered about it herself, one of her subordinates must surely have suggested it at some point.
"I'm sure more ponies would know of Applejack of the Apple Underground, who bravely fights for their rights, than anypony else. You're going to be on their minds whether you put your name forward or not. In fact, you're going to have to govern no matter what, at least for a time. If your revolution succeeds, the Equestrian Empire will collapse into anarchy, unless those who destroy the old order retain the authority to build a new one. That's a compromise most revolutionaries are willing to make. Some enjoy it so much they never let go of the position at all..."
"That's not going to happen," said Applejack, "None of us are in this for power!"
"I wouldn't doubt it. But somepony's going to have to make the decisions on how to transition to an entirely new form of rule. And there are so many decisions to make, about constitutions, executives, lawmaking bodies, ratios of representation, regional rights, term periods and a hundred other functions of government. Many of these decisions will have to be made quickly and decisively, and cannot afford the squabbling and fumbling of an inexperienced congress. There are ways in which transforming a dictatorship into a democracy is more difficult than striking up a new state."
"How's that?" Applejack did not seem like she particularly wanted to have this conversation – Celestia had not thought she would – but there was curiosity in her voice.
"Once you get to a certain age, you realize... that time is cyclical. For every action there is a reaction. Once the balance of power shifts with the swing of an election, it will be easy for those once privileged to become victims themselves, and for the existing elitism to be replaced by a mob rule that's really no better. There are more earth ponies than pegasi and unicorns combined – do you realize what that means? Restoring earth ponies to their rightful place in society will perhaps be more important than anything, but can you honestly say there are none that would seek to punish their oppressors, whether by acts of violence or by turning their own institutions against them? Does that fair to you? Does it seem just? It could be called both, but it's not going to create a stable, healthy society. A true democracy is pluralistic and protects the interests of its minorities – even if those minorities have committed serious wrongs in the past. I think the wounds of your people run too deep for that to be possible any time soon. The ideal of One Pony One Vote may be a foundation for equality, but not necessarily for balance and harmony."
"We all know the cliché," grumbled Applejack, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch, right? Does Twilight Sparkle know you're this cynical?"
They walked on in silence for a little while as Celestia considered. She'd never really thought of it that way. It seemed clear to her that Twilight Sparkle would have agreed.
The cliffs they were heading for were much closer now.
"I don't think I'm being cynical. I think ponies are inherently good by nature, but we're as corruptible and capable of pettiness as anyone. The pony races are just different enough in abilities and affinities that it is difficult for one kind to effectively represent another politically. This is true even in my world, where we're much more integrated and familial. Here the centuries of prejudice and resentment are going to make a peaceful ideological competition almost impossible. The revolution is going to expose these racial tensions. The truth is that we are herd animals who tend to be shaped by our communities, and the ugliness of the current world order will have an impact for generations."
"So you think you and Luna should rule because you're above all that?"
Celestia allowed herself a small smile. "It's precisely because we're amidst it all that we should rule. We are earth ponies, pegasi and unicorns all. We can relate to all of you, and represent everypony's interests."
"Uh huh? That sounds more like you can't relate to any of us or properly represent anypony's interests."
Celestia's smile faded. That was, in some ways, a rather cruel thing to say.
"If we're as detached as you say," she pointed out softly, "then we are also free of the grievances and biases that affect you. Even if you believe that I could not possibly understand or empathize the average earth pony's circumstances, you must at least grant that I have a grasp of the big picture of geopolitics. There are other things to consider beside the fate of ponies. What of all the other races whose lands Equestria has subjugated? How will their independence be restored? Can you say with certainty that there aren't ponies who wouldn't rather maintain Equestria's hegemony and international influence?"
Celestia paused to give Applejack the opportunity to contradict her. Even though she hoped to change Applejack's mind, she'd always meant for this to be a conversation rather than merely a lecture. Applejack, however, had nothing to say.
"Do you think a laborer who's never been further than twenty kilometers from Trottingham is qualified to make decisions about the political liberties of zebras half-way across the world? No, there are decisions that must be made unilaterally, because there are some mistakes too great and terrible to be made even in the comfort of knowledge that they were made as part of the democratic process. Equestria's occupation of its neighbors must end. It needs a leader who can make that happen swiftly and decisively, yet one who can protect ponies from revanchism..."
Applejack actually stopped at this point, and stomped her front hooves into the ground.
"All right, democracy's complicated! Nopony ever said otherwise. It's not just something that happens, it's a continuous process that needs ponies working on it and maintaining it. The wheels of justice grind slow and all that."
Celestia slowed down and looked over her shoulder. "I would call that continuous process bureaucracy. While those wheels turn, the injustices prevail. I understand desire for self-determination, but the ideal of democracy isn't worth it when ponies and others continue to suffer, hoping and waiting for reforms to be implemented."
"How do you even figure?! Where's all this expertise coming from when you've lived in your utopian bubble for so long? What do you know about democracy? We – earth ponies, I mean – we pretty much invented it."
"So the old stories go. Unicorns created monarchy, pegasi thought up despotism and earth ponies invented democracy. History isn't quite so clear-cut though. Some unicorn kings and queens were elected, and some pegasus generals were appointed dictators by decree of law and majority support and almost always stepped down peacefully when their terms ended. Some earth pony chancellors abused their power and worked to undermine the limitations of their office."
Celestia faced front and kept walking, hoping Applejack would keep up to hear what she had to say. She was glad to hear Applejack's hoofsteps pick up again behind her.
"There have been various movements to reform my Equestria into a republic, you know. I've never tried to stand in the way. These experiments, they never lasted long. The most recent such attempt was only about two and a half centuries ago. A group of local governors and freethinkers approached me with a proposal to institute a parliament and a request that I step down – so I did. They called their treatise for government the Constitution of the Year 750, and it didn't last beyond that year. The council of ministers voted into power broke up from infighting, the parliament followed, and I was asked to resume my office."
Applejack harrumphed, but Celestia liked the sound. It sounded thoughtful as well as disapproving.
"It just goes to show," Applejack said, "that your people have become so dependent on you that they can't function on their own anymore. Heck, even if you never tried to stand in the way, I bet you never gave it your full support either, did you?"
Celestia looked down from her destination, at the dirt under her hooves, and idly noted that none of it was sticking to her pristine golden shoes.
"I couldn't support a system I didn't believe in."
The words made her feel hollow like a lie, even though they were nothing of the sort. She spoke the truth, but it was also true that she had been afraid, not for her position but for her perception. She'd been scared, so scared, that her ponies would blame her when the experiment failed. It had happened before, in previous instances in previous centuries, when she'd tried to do more as an adviser or an elector or a symbolic constitutional monarch. Always, always there had been angry whispers in the underground, accusations of sabotage and conspiracy that were hardly ever voiced directly to her, and that terrible word was at the back of her mind whenever she saw a frowning face. In 750, she had practically gone into exile so nopony could accuse her of undermining the work of her successors, and she had not succeeded. In the midst of her recrowning ceremony on the last day of the year, with a cheering crowd of hundreds in front of her and a rainbow of fireworks outside, she remembered nothing as well as the whispering servants in the corner of the hall and the former minister who'd spat on the floor and stormed out. She knew what they were thinking...
Ah, well. Celestia had no right to feel angry, or sad, or frustrated. Luna had always had it so much worse.
"Well, neither can I," said Applejack, "However much trouble it is, a republic's still better than some absolute monarch..." She searched for the right words, and found them. "...playing Goddess!"
She said it with conviction, but Celestia wasn't sure whether it was because she genuinely found Celestia's arguments wanting, or due to simple stubbornness. Perhaps Applejack's perspective would change if she had time to think about it, without Celestia's poking and prodding putting her on the defensive. If not, then not. Celestia didn't want this debate to become more heated than it already was. And yet, she couldn't help responding to that last barb.
"I've never claimed to be a god, and I've never asked to be worshiped..."
"Well, somehow, you ended up in that position anyway, didn't you?"
"Mmmm. God... Well, I've always thought that God is a dream of good government."
"What?"
Up close, the cliffs appeared old and feeble. It was a limestone formation, with a steady inward curve that clearly marked the former waterline. The rockface looked like it had curled down on the beach to die after being worn down by the push and pull of waves lasting for millennia. Even though the waves had receded and given it peace, the place must have seemed that old even long before.
Celestia was certain they were in the right place, the place where they needed to be. She'd only had a vague idea of the exact geographical location of the oracle's abode, but stepping closer to these rocks felt appropriate, like she was taking steps in invisible but familiar hoofprints. Something, whether lingering magic or simple intuition, was guiding her. She was hardly surprised when they progressed along the former seaward-side of the cliffs and found a small cave entrance.
It was, in many ways, a highly impractical living space. Celestia looked over the strip of desert reaching towards the sea and tried to picture the area as it had been a thousand years ago. It seemed like it would have been desolate, remote and lonely in any time period. What sort of pony would have chosen to live here? Had the oracle been a loner with an appreciation of flat vistas? Or had she been so hounded by ponies seeking knowledge of their futures that she'd made herself a recluse?
Celestia may have been on the lookout for prophecies to help navigate future paths, but she was also seeking prophecies of the past, answers about how the Equestrian Empire had come about. In Celestia's world, the prophecy of Nightmare Moon's return had been made some time before Luna's fall, even though Celestia had only discovered them long afterward. It was interesting to wonder... Was this an alternate reality or a parallel reality? Had there been a specific time, a specific moment, where this universe and hers and split off from each other? How might that have affected visions of the future from before that moment? Perhaps there was an explanation there for prophecies that did not come true. Celestia certainly hoped she hadn't come all this way to find the same old warning about the stars aiding in Luna's escape.
No scrolls or papers would ordinarily have survived the salty seaside air and the span of centuries, but they might well have been protected by magics, and there might have been stone tablets, inscriptions, less mundane ways of leaving records. Or so she hoped.
The tunnel entrance was wide and open, but the path quickly became cramped enough that Celestia had to bend over and keep her wings tightly folded. Applejack had an easier time moving forward, but turning around promised to be tricky for both of them. The cavern seemed largely natural, but had probably had work done to widen and extend it. There were faint marks on the walls that may have been scrapes left by pickaxes. Though it was dusty and dry inside, Celestia could well imagine how damp the space would have once been. Applejack didn't say anything, but she must have appreciated the lower temperature underground.
They reached a living area. By this point, the daylight had faded away, so Celestia created some of her own. She tweaked her inner glow to a colder blueish, assuming Applejack would prefer something less solar.
"Sheesh," said Applejack observing the chamber, "Not as fancy as I was expecting."
The cavern was a cavern, and nothing more. There was no elaborate stonework, no reliefs or carvings – no sign left of art, only practicalities. The ground was littered with broken pottery and refuse that might have once been wooden furniture. A pile of mortar in the corner implied an oven. Alcoves in the walls had the function of storerooms. The place may have been an archeologist's treasure trove, but nothing there looked conventionally valuable or even serviceable in any way. They had a cursory look through the junk anyway.
Along the way, Applejack cleared her throat loudly. "I can't believe I'm asking this. Uh, can you see the future? If you alicorns have got the same blood as us, do you ever get premonitions yourself?"
"I... can see the present on occasion, in my dreams. Sometimes, it's flashes of secrets and dangers, and sometimes it's nothing at all, things I can't recognize or interpret. Sometimes, I can't tell whether I've dreamed something real, or just fantasy."
Applejack's face scrunched up as she thought about Celestia's answer, but she didn't seem to reach a satisfactory conclusion.
"Why do you ask?" Celestia wondered.
"There's ponies damn near convinced that the Queen knows what's going to happen before it happens. I swear I've had the same idea sometimes. When we tried to infiltrate her palace, I'm telling you, we didn't mess up. It felt like the guards were waiting for us." Her eyes flickered from side to side. "I know what you're thinking – I've thought about it too – but nopony's on my crew's a traitor or a sell-out! I, hmh, I made sure of that. Nopony but me knew when and where and how we made our move, so nopony could have betrayed anything really important to the enemy."
"A wise precaution." Applejack stared a silent question at her, so Celestia went on. "I don't know how she might have known. There are many things about her I don't understand, and she may have allies or command forces that I don't."
A further tunnel led out of the living area. Applejack followed Celestia inside without prompting.
The next chamber seemed more promising. This was a space that had been dug out into a rough rectangular space. There were signs of stalactites and stalagmites being broken off to make room. Large stone shelves, consisting of a dozen tiers and reaching almost up to the ceiling, were lined up next to each other. The place had the look of a library – but the shelves were empty at a glance.
Applejack spent some time chewing on her lip and then spoke up again. "What do you know for sure then?" she asked. It was as if the idea had only now sunk in that she could better understand her enemy by questioning Celestia. "Could you move the sun?"
"I could," said Celestia, turning away from Applejack. She started pacing between the shelves, looking for something, anything. She had to scrape against the cave walls to turn around in the cramped space.
"Then why haven't you?"
"Because until she is defeated, she could move it back anytime. It would be incredibly dangerous to get into a tug of war with the sun."
Only after she spoke did she realize that Applejack had asked her whether she knew this for sure when she actually did not. Celestia thought about it, but did not correct herself.
The truth was that from the moment she'd entered this universe, she'd sensed something strange and unnatural about the sun. It was certainly larger than usual, and there was an energy about it that she could not explain, except by assuming it was being fed by the corrupt magics of its mistress. She knew that ordinary ponies could not look directly at the sun because of its bright light and that was not unlike what she felt here. Even seeing it clearly, a haze of flames seemed to cloud her awareness.
She would have preferred not to take any action before she understood this twisted sun and the ways in which it differed from her own. Celestia wanted to make sure she would have perfect control.
"Besides," she carried on, "Queen Celestia doesn't yet know that I am here, or even that I exist. If I interfered with the sun, she may be able to figure out who I am and we would lose a major advantage, secrecy."
Did that come across as defensive? Celestia glanced back at Applejack, but found her nodding along without rancor.
"You've got something there," said Applejack.
Celestia thought Applejack was voicing her agreement at first, until the latter raised a hoof and pointed to one of the shelves, where something of faded dark metal had eluded the glow Celestia was projecting. It was some sort of tube or cylinder, a container, made of bronze perhaps. She picked it up with a gentle telekinetic field and tempered her excitement. If this was a storeroom of prophecies, most of the prophecies were long gone by now, so the odds of happening across something relevant to their quest were long indeed. Yet she expected they'd come across something and not nothing, which may have been a bit optimistic. She examined the bronze cylinder and clicked open the top. Inside was a rolled-up piece of cloth. Once she extricated and unwrapped it – carefully, without touching it – she supposed it had once been a piece of writing. It looked more like a worn kitchen rag than a document, but there were faint traces of text on it, now far from legible. Deciphering whatever had been written there seemed impossible.
Without a huff, Celestia rolled up the cloth again and slipped it back inside the container. When they looked around for more, they discovered two more bronze cylinders, one of which was empty while the other contained only dust and scraps. They also found shards of clay tablets they could not piece together. Celestia scanned the walls for inscriptions or painted messages and saw nothing of the sort. It was nothing they found after all.
They did, however, come across another way forward, another tunnel deeper underground.
The next chamber was by far the largest. Celestia's glow created a bubble of illumination around them that did not reach the back walls. She had to aim a more focused beam of light from her horn to look around, but found only empty space between herself and the far side. While the previous parts of the cavern had been plausibly natural, with occasional modifications and extensions, this area did not make as much sense. It was too big and symmetrical, like the inside of a dome.
"The heck is this place supposed to be?" asked Applejack, keeping her voice low
Something was different here. Though there was nothing conspicuous to draw the eye, Celestia could sense strangeness. There was a distinct smell to old magic, and she was sure she caught a whiff of it here. Yet even with the feeling that they were in the right place, Celestia felt lost, as there was nothing obvious there to approach or investigate. They had a look around, both zigzagging across the chamber and meeting back up somewhere in the middle. They spent minutes aimlessly searching for, and failing to find anything, stood still and took in the silence. Applejack yawned, and raised a hoof to protect her eyes when Celestia looked at her in reaction.
"Hey, watch it with the flashlight!" she muttered.
Celestia aimed her horn downwards. She did notice something then. There was something on the cave floor – circular grooves in an unrecognizable pattern. As the uneven ground was obscured by loose rocks and dust, it was hard to make out anything for certain, but it may have been some sort of symbols carved into the rock.
"I'll be darned if we didn't come all this way for nothing," murmured Applejack, taking further steps around.
Celestia remained silent and kept her gaze on the floor, but only for a moment. A vague but spiking sense of unease caused her to whirl around at almost the same time that Applejack yelped.
Applejack was quivering, and waving one of her forehooves up and down. She looked, rather implausibly, like she'd been frightened by some rodent or insectoid and was trying to throw it off or stomp it on the ground. Celestia scooted closer and tried to find the real cause of her alarm.
"Applejack?"
Applejack didn't respond, didn't even look at her. She was shaking her hoof with increasing panic, as if something invisible was crawling up her leg and drawing up her body. Her eyes were rolling to the back of her head. She seemed like she should have lost her balance and fallen, but something was holding her upright. Celestia considered a dozen different spells and magical wards, but hesitated to take action before she understood what was happening. Before she reached any conclusions, Applejack neck twitched and she fell still.
When she spoke, she seemed to start in the middle of a sentence.
"...we can begin. Yes, this is the part where we begin."
Her voice echoed even before it left her mouth, before the sound could soar and bounce in the underground hall. Celestia moved closer, causing Applejack to take a wobbly step backwards. She moved only very slowly and was bent forward like an old mare with aching joints.
"Hail Celestia, Princess of Ponykind," said something through Applejack, in a voice too indifferent to be called mocking, "There's no need to get fussy about your companion, you hear? I am only borrowing her for a little bit. Yes, yes, it is all very morally suspect, I'm sure, but it can't be helped. I will only take a few minutes. She will be fine. And I think you can bear it too."
The movements of her mouth seemed to follow the sound rather than the other way around.
"I'm speaking these words over three thousand years before your time and leaving them for you to find. Do not ask me how exactly it works – it's all very complicated and I only hired somepony to make it happen. He is just staring at me with a dumb expression on his face. Maybe he doesn't know how it works either, eh?"
The theory of it, at least, made sense to Celestia. It must have been some sort of psychic imprint, magicked into the environment and triggered by specific circumstances. There was nopony here but a recording speaking through Applejack's body. Her eyes were half-lidded and out of focus – whatever presence was visiting her did not see Celestia or their surroundings.
"You know who I am. I am the Oracle of Equ. You'd like me to tell you your fortune. Before we get to that, I will give you the same two warnings I give anypony else. Firstly, don't get your hopes up too much. You knew what you were getting into when you came looking for prophecies, and something very specific wasn't it. I've been able to predict the future for most of my life and most of it has been good intuition, hunches and mysterious dreams. I've never had a vision as clear as the one I had of this conversation. I can still remember every word you and I say, which is how I can communicate with you at all. I would prefer to skip the nonsense back and forth and tell you everything now, but that's not what I am going to do."
The sudden silence caught Celestia off guard. So far, it felt like the Oracle was reciting from a script, addressing points before Celestia had time to raise them. If the Oracle was following a script, she must have still been following it. She wanted Celestia to speak next, to teach her how to communicate with somepony that wasn't really there, or perhaps to make some sort of point about predestination. It seemed childish to refuse or to change the subject, so Celestia went along with it.
"And the second warning?" she asked.
"Don't blame me if you don't like what I have to say. You have not realized this, since you only know me from centuries of success stories and myths thought up in hindsight, but I won't be very popular until after my death. Ponies are more likely to throw rocks at me than heed me, and those that come to seek my wisdom often regret it. Oh well. I guess a lot of ponies have reason to fear their futures, hmm?" The warning seemed fair, but the Oracle wasn't finished yet. Applejack's mouth twisted into an ugly sneer. "You won't be the only one to leave this cave running away in tears."
"I'll... keep that in mind," said Celestia. She bit her lip and tried to clarify what she could expect a bit further. "You say that you've foreseen this conversation, but if most everything else you've foreseen is vague and blurry, then what do you actually know?"
"I know enough. I know who you are and the circumstances you're in, so the conversation we're having filled in any blanks."
Celestia pondered that for a moment. "So you know the future based on foreseeing your own predictions of the future?"
"Hmh. Don't overthink it." Applejack did a lopsided shrug. "I don't do hogwash, and I'm sure I wouldn't be here without a reason. This is the part where you go ahead with your actual questions."
It was good advice on both accounts. Despite all the rules of predestination, the future could be too mutable to recount reliably, even by the best of prophets. Celestia had not been foolish enough to let her expectation get too high.
The first question seemed obvious enough.
"Are we going to defeat Queen Celestia?"
"Oh yes. Probably."
Celestia sighed.
"Will Twilight Sparkle and her friends be all right?"
"I don't know. They'll survive though, if that makes any difference."
"Am I going to succeed in killing Queen Celestia?"
"You'll come closer to killing yourself than the Queen."
"But she will die, won't she? She has to get her punishment, right?"
"She will lose her life and gain a new one, though not necessarily in that order."
This was presumably why the Oracle hadn't wanted her to get her hopes up.
"Is my plan going to work otherwise?"
"It would get close enough, if you stuck to it yourself."
"Why wouldn't I?"
"There will be several convincing reasons. Applejack will beg you to. Luna will refuse to play her part. Your conscience will force your hoof."
"Are you being cryptic to provoke me?"
"Hmh. I warned you, didn't I?" Applejack cocked her head to one side. "I only say what I'm meant to so you would do as you will. It can't be helped."
Do as you will...The words seemed to have a grating double meaning.
"Then I've wasted my time coming here? There's no point to any of this?"
"There is a point and I wish you'd get to it. The truth is that you wouldn't behave any differently no matter what I predicted."
"That's not-"
"You would not. You believe in prophecy, but you believe in yourself and your allies more. More importantly, you know the future can't be changed, no matter what. You made your plans before coming to this place, and it's too late to recalculate everything now, based solely on the words of a memory. You sought me out because you hate the uncertainty of your conclusions and hoped I would prove you right and make you feel good about yourself. Why don't you ask me what you really came here for?"
Celestia took a deep breath to calm herself. She was starting to see why ponies might have wanted to throw rocks at the Oracle, and it wasn't just because she might have foretold terrible things.
"Do you know why this reality is so different from my own?"
"It's not so different, really. All that separates this world from yours is a single decision made a thousand years ago."
"Who made that decision? Me?"
"It was your sister, when she relinquished her claim to the crown of Equestria."
"Why would she do that?"
"You'd be better off asking that from Luna herself. Stop biding time and get to it."
The Oracle was right. Celestia was putting off the questions that weighed most heavily on her. It was ridiculous, really, how like a nervous schoolfilly she felt. She was acutely aware of her heartbeat, and when she finally spoke, she had to choke out the words.
"Why did all this happen? Why did I do all these things? Why am I evil?"
Applejack's face, in twitches of muscle, took on the expression of a joyless grin. "Did you really come all this way to ask something you already know the answer to?"
Celestia shook her head. "I don't know."
Applejack's slack form took a step forward, and Celestia took a step back. She had thought Applejack's eyes were blank before, but now she could have sworn they were gleaming and boring into her.
"Isn't it possible that you're a simply a bad pony and, somewhere along the way, you got tired of pretending otherwise?"
The only thing Celestia could think to do was glower back. The Oracle went on.
"You've spent centuries manipulating others for their own good. You've gotten used to it. Is it really far to go from that to toying with others just for the hell of it?"
"No... That's silly."
"If it's not true, then why are you crying?"
Celestia startled and raised a knee to her eyes, where she felt tears brimming.
She was surprised that, in this empty cave lost in a desolate wasteland with only an ancient phantom for company, she could feel so embarrassed. What a relief it was that Twilight Sparkle wasn't there to see her act so pathetic. It was unseemly.
"If you were right, then I wouldn't feel so bad," she said, quietly and feebly.
"If I were wrong, then you wouldn't feel guilt for someone else's actions. You wouldn't refer to the Queen as 'I'. It's strange that you'd argue against the idea now. This is what you must have suspected from the moment you started believing that there is no real Daymare Sun and that the Queen is responsible for her own actions."
"That's what I'm trying to understand. Our actions are not so arbitrary. Nopony – no one – is evil for evil's sake."
"Oh, but perhaps you are mad. Perhaps you are crazy and demented. Maybe the strain of your duties and constant pretentions caused you to snap and lose all sense of right and wrong. Would that be a more satisfying explanation?"
"No matter what you believe, I'm not here for my satisfaction. I'm here for the truth."
"What use is the truth about this to you? Will it help you fight your war in any way? You should admit to yourself that the only reason you're here is for yourself – if not so I could prove you right, then perhaps for me to prove you wrong instead." Applejack moved her head to the side and looked away in a show of contempt. "I won't do you that favor. You're going to have to figure out who your other self is and how you feel about it."
Celestia sniffled and frowned. Somehow, it seemed of the utmost importance that the Oracle understood.
"I'm- I'm not like her. I don't hate anyone. I don't want to harm anyone. And I'd never, ever do that to my own sister!"
Applejack showed no reaction. For several seconds, she remained motionless, before eventually turning back towards Celestia.
"Do what to your own sister?"
"Kill her..."
The Oracle laughed and laughed and laughed. It was a laughter from deep inside, loud and resonant, filling the entire cavern, and it would not stop.
It sounded forced.
When the laughter eventually wound down into quiet croaking sounds and then silence, Applejack's face returned to the previous blank expression. It took her a while to carry on.
"Our Luna never died, my dear."
It was as if the world itself took a giant breath, leaving none for Celestia.
"That's impossible."
Was it? Luna's death was a matter of historical record, but history barely remembered her, and facts could become so very dubious across seven hundred and fifty years.
"Where is she?"
"She's hidden away, imprisoned somewhere nopony can reach."
"There's no- She's.. she's in the sun?"
Despite Celestia's sharp stare, the Oracle did not bother to voice a confirmation.
Now it was Celestia who turned away. Thoughts came rushing to her so fast and furious that she could not think clearly. Even the barren, shadowed environment of this underground chamber was too much of a distraction. She wanted to see nothing, to hear nothing, to give peace to her senses. Closing her eyes was the only way she could finally focus and take control of herself.
This idea also had the tinge of impossibility, but why should that have been the case? Magic had a way of making anything possible, as her present circumstances demonstrated, and reducing a being of flesh and blood into an abstraction and fusing them into an object was undoubtedly an inexact science. There was nothing to indicate that Luna and Celestia could only be imprisoned within the heavenly bodies they called their own, was there? Each of them had a connection to both the sun and the moon.
The more she considered it, the more sense it made. Seconds into this revelation, Celestia already believed it with all her heart – and not just because she dearly wanted to believe. It could not be only a prank by the Oracle; there had to be something to it.
Yet Celestia's affinity for the sun had done nothing for her in understanding what was going on, or allowed her to sense her sister's presence. She'd never thought of this, never even considered the possibility. Several times she had wondered about the strangeness of this world's sun, the disturbing energies that permeated it and bubbled in its surface. She had supposed that the Queen was supercharging it as part of her effort to keep the world burning with sunshine, and for all she knew, that was still the case. This had all hidden the truth from Celestia, dulled her perception of something that should have been obvious.
Some things were less obvious. The thing that gave Celestia pause was that she had imprisoned Luna using the Elements of Harmony... How did it all fit together?
Celestia reopened her eyes. Slowly, without any conscious thought on her part, her head had turned to look at a particular section of cave wall. This was the direction where, above the ground and beyond the horizon, the sun lay hanging above the Griffon Kingdom. With effort, she pulled her gaze away and back to the Oracle.
"It is Luna, right? Not Nightmare Moon?"
"Yes."
"How is this possible?"
Applejack shrugged. "I don't know about such things. In fact, we are pretty much through with the things I can tell you."
"This is the part where we say farewell?"
"Oh, there is one last thing to get over with. You should go back to Trottingham as soon as possible."
"I will." Again Celestia's head turned by itself, this time to look at the tunnel they had entered from. Her mind was still roaming, a few steps ahead of her, out of the cave and under the clear skies. "As soon as I've freed my sister."
"You should go immediately."
Celestia slowly shook her head, without much further heed. It didn't help that the Oracle sounded obliged to the point of boredom.
"Queen Celestia knows about the Apple Underground. Her forces will be attacking there soon."
Celestia flinched and peered at the Oracle once more. This recaptured some of her attention.
"When?"
"Tomorrow, if there were such a thing."
"There is time then. I will warn them."
Applejack's smirked, looking surprisingly wistful. "Ahh, I knew you would say that." She paused for several seconds, her jaw unclenched as if she would speak further. Or perhaps she was expecting Celestia to say something? If so, Celestia had no idea what. "Well, Princess, I hope you agree that this has been and will be an interesting experience. I... wish there was something more I could do."
Applejack's shoulders rose. She seemed to take a breath to sigh, but never released it. Instead she slumped to the ground like a sack of apples.
Celestia scooted to Applejack and leaned over her. She said Applejack's name and prodded at her shoulder, but did not get a reaction. A gentle snoring sound indicated that Applejack was all right, merely unconscious. The Oracle had released her.
Celestia took off. There was a lump in her throat and – indeed – tears in her eyes. The dull ache of guilt and shame she was used to flared up into something sharp and urgent. Every thought of pity she had ever had for her sister was back and stronger than ever. Luna could well have been conscious for all the years hours and seconds of her imprisonment, staring down at Celestia's crimes without being able to do anything about it. Celestia could now allow it to go on a moment longer. Once she was finished, she would pick up Applejack and return to Trottingham. It would not take long. She would not dally.
After a rush to the exit tunnel and a few seconds of pressing forward inside it, she realized that she did not have the patience to navigate the cramped pathways and repository. She teleported outside, touching down on the crest of the cliff for the barest split second, and took to the sky.
She did not have to go very far, nor very high. A few powerful beats of her wings took her up to the edge of the troposphere, where she could see the upper side of the sun. She could take it in by sight as well as smell and hearing and the feel of it on her skin and under her skin. From this angle, it looked much like a glowing golden boil or tumor on the surface of the earth. Though the sun's rays reached all across and its energies were within her already, she wanted to look upon her work as she was doing it.
Once she came to a halt, the windless silence and the deep blue gave her an unwanted moment to reflect. She wondered if there were other things she should have asked the Oracle, anything else useful she might have gleamed with further prodding. The Oracle seemed insistent that the conversation go a specific way, but perhaps it would have been possible to find out more. It was pointless to consider that now. This revelation was more important than anything else. Still, Celestia wished she'd at least thanked the Oracle, or... asked for her name perhaps.
Celestia reached out and took a hold of the sun.
This was not, technically, a good idea. Everything she had told Applejack earlier was still true. If she did this thing, even though she planned no movements or modifications to the sun as of yet, her presence and the element of surprise would be lost. It would be as good as poking Queen Celestia in the eye with her horn.
From that doubt others followed. According to the Oracle, it was not Nightmare Moon she was reaching out to, but Celestia could not really know who this sister of hers would be. Did it matter? What else could she do? Would waiting and thinking about it further make any difference? The only alternative she could think of was leaving Luna imprisoned, and that was unacceptable. Celestia could not leave this be, no more than she could have left the Equestrian Empire stand.
With all of her magic and mental power directed and focused at the sun, using senses she could neither name nor describe, she could feel something – sunspots hidden in the brightness, a pocket of chill within the heat. Her attention was met by another. She recognized the presence and smiled through the tears.
During Nightmare Moon's imprisonment, she had always assumed she would be able to use her magic to free her opposite number. She'd pondered it sometimes, usually at night, with hopes that the bad dream was over and Luna could be herself again and everything would be all right, if only she was let out. Of course, Celestia knew she could never take such a foolish risk, but it had seemed a feasible possibility. Now she knew for sure.
She felt along the surface of the sun for the right places and gave it a pinch. The fiery light wavered and blinked and – for the fraction of a fraction of a second – ceased. It was hardly a proper eclipse, and ponies who didn't happen to be looking at the sun at just the right moment would never have noticed. Queen Celestia, where ever she was, oh she would notice most definitely...
The real show happened when Celestia was already on a slow circular descent. The exertion she felt was vastly out of proportion with how much she actually had to do, but she wasn't finished yet. Luna's energies were leaking back into the physical world and collating into a pony, but Celestia had to focus on pulling these energies towards her. Arcs of smoky, black lightning whizzed over the sky, leaping across hundreds of kilometers and striking on the cliffs below. This spectacle too was short-lived, but it kicked off a minor storm on the ground, where dust and sand swirled and mixed with an impenetrable dusky miasma.
The beats of Celestia's wings helped clear the air a little, but the darkness was already receding when she touched down again. It was a darkness of ravens, coal, obsidian and ebony – the essence of everything black. It was the color of mourning, gaping like an empty space in the world, or blazing like a banner to everything that was missing from the world.
And there stood Luna. She appeared with her legs bent, almost at a crouch, but slowly stood up to her full height. There were no royal vestments on her. She was taller than her counterpart, but still not quite as tall as Celestia. Her mane and tail were very short, down to her shoulders in the case of the former, and only showed faint, tired glimmers of starlight. The edges of her hair were gray and frayed; it may have been burned away.
In her expression, the emotion Celestia could read was not dignity or pride, not relief or thanks, not anger or recrimination, not despair or insanity – but resolve. Though her eyes were circled and baggy, her gaze was focused. Even as she looked at Celestia, it seemed like she could see so much else, like she was taking in more than just one anxious onlooker and a desert plain.
Celestia didn't dare approach, or even call out to her. Her instinct would have been to her sister, to nuzzle against her and wrap her hooves around her, but she knew better.
"Don't- don't be afraid!" said Celestia, "I'm not who you think I am!"
It was she who was afraid. Of all that Celestia's deeds had damaged, Luna had been the worst off and her judgment would be the hardest to bear.
Luna's cool eyes shifted but continued staring at Celestia.
"I know who you are," she said, "I've been watching you, when I've been able." She smiled, slowly and awkwardly. She was remembering how. "Thank you for freeing me!"
Celestia was not sure what she was going to say next. She never got to say it.
As the last of the dust and magic smoke cleared, something changed. An unfamiliar weight was bearing down on Celestia and a strange noise buzzing was in her ears. It became difficult to focus on the here and now. She was tired, she thought, but shouldn't have been that tired.
Why did she feel this way? Perhaps it was all in her mind...
Though Luna looked no different, Celestia could sense invisible tendrils of power reaching out and probing her.
"I am sorry about this," said Luna, no longer smiling.
Celestia's knees buckled and she fell. There would still have been time to counter-attack, to escape, to do or say anything, but she could not gather her bearings. The shock was too great, and her thoughts were of the most random things – of playtime with her little sister, of fighting with her little sister, of old friends and enemies, of the minister who'd spat on the floor at her recoronation, of Brainy Bright's betrayal, of the war council at Trottingham where she laid out her plan...
"You're not the only one with a plan, sister."
Celestia head was heavy with the flood of memories, and sleep seemed so sweet as it took her.
Next chapter: Keeping Chivalry Alive.
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If you want people to take your ideas seriously don't work so hard to be an asshole. An unpopular interpretation of a character provided by something as obnoxious as the Oracle. Why should I take it seriously for a second?
5857940
Because perhaps the oracle is supposed to be obnoxious? Perhaps the character's interpretation is supposed to grate on you?
The thing with a fic updating after a year is, you get all happy at having some 10k words to go through, until you start reading it and realize you have only a vague idea what the actual fuck is it even about anymore, and reading it from the beginning for the sake of the newest chapter would be idiotic because you're unlikely to get an another update anytime soon.
5857940
I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say here, but I calling me an asshole out of the blue is pretty insulting. Way to take all the satisfaction out of getting a chapter out, dude.
Oh man— I honestly can't tell who this Luna is allied with. Is she taking the Princess' memories to give to the Queen? Or does
hint something else?
so she released the counterpart to her world's luna, effectively returning the night once more..........
and the first damn thing this luna does is knock out what is in all reality an indispensable advantage over her psychopathic sister? its not even a damn gratitude problem, having celestia on her side means having everypony who is on celestia's side on her side as well.
also i am pretty sure that celestia wouldn't have just bowed down to that spell. i mean seriously, she would at least be cautious in case she mistook her for this world's celestia.
After I finished the chapter, I think I sat frozen in my chair for five minutes.
Wow.
Just... wow.
I'm in love with your characterization of Celestia, and I don't think her critique of democracy was out of place. As you said in the author's notes, it's not a black and white issue, and seeing the repercussions that will come from "defeating the villain" was wonderful.
Your prose is something that has captivated me throughout this entire story. Normally with long chapters, my eyes will skim over some of the thicker paragraphs, but here, I was fully absorbed, even going back and rereading some passages. Applejack and Celestia's conversation was satisfying, the Oracle (goddamn, that Oracle
) brought the intensity, and the ending with Luna was a punch to my emotions.
I dropped folding the laundry without a second thought once I saw this story had updated, and my high expectations were not let down. Thank you for writing this story, and keep up the excellent work!
Brrrr. This chapter gives me the chills. In part because of how Celestia is being challenged here. Having her soul stared into first by AJ, then by the oracle, and now by the other luna. It gives me the chills. On the other hand, it seems that this is going to hurt for both of them involved. For Celestia, for sunshine AJ, and for Sunshine Luna. It seems this luna is aware of the differences between the 2 celestias, but what could she possibly be doing now? Like I said, brrrr.
Personally, I've always believed that a perfect benevolent dictatorship would be the ideal system of government. However, there are two reasons that this does not pan out to be so in real life.
First, the quality of a dictatorship is more unstable than any other, depending on the current leader. A strong, benevolent leader can bring prosperity to the country without hurting other countries, but a strong, selfish leader can bring ruin to their people or other countries, and a weak leader can be the cause of civil unrest and revolution. Even if a benevolent leader rules for life and improves their country, as soon as they die the quality of the next leader can be a crapshoot, even considering successor grooming.
Second, to make truly good decisions, the leader needs go have experience and knowledge that far exceeds what one can gather in a single lifetime. This necesitates having many advisors to make informed decisions, each of which is a potential weak spot or opening for sabotage.
In a world like Equestria, both of these problems are mitigated, making dictatorship the best possible option. Celestia and Luna (and possibly Cadance and Twilight) are immortal, which means that they do not have to deal with the problem of dying naturally and needing a successor. On the chance the do wish to groom one in case of violent death, they have far longer to oversee them to determine their worthiness. In addition, living for thousands of years allows thsm to naturally accrue the knowledge and experience needed to forgo advisors, only needing organizational aides whose only decision making powers lie in how to best carry out their leaders' decisions.
Of course, by the same reasoning, a dictatorship with an immortal, but selfish or evil ruler is the worst type of government, given that it removes the normal recourse of waiting for them to pass away, and requires either revolution or military invasion to change.
5858060
I'm saying, if you want me to give your idea some consideration, then give me some reason too. Instead you made this chapter thoroughly unpleasant.
Woot, this is going to be a mad ride, and I really wish that Celestia could have listened to the oracle... At least once to save trotting ham at the end there.
Holy Shit, It's Back!
OH YES
I LOVE this interpretation of tyranny given by the oracle! This captures tyranny in its essence. Bravo!
Oh hey, it's back!
*immediately tries remembering what the plot threads were again*
But seriously, nice to see an update again. Wonder what alt Luna has planned...
I was not expecting this. Not at all. Once I saw this updated, I had to stop East Horsing. Anyway, I personally very much liked Celestia here. True, I haven't always liked her, but as I've noticed while taking government classes, democracy isn't all its cracked up to be in certain cases, and it's unfortunate to say that it's more a part of the fact that democracies work better on a small scale, not a large one. But I liked it more because she made some very convincing points, and she was convicted to this idea.
The Oracle scene was rather . . . odd. I was not expecting an Oracle to be so . . . like that! It's not very Oracle-like, I suppose. I wish we knew what the voice sounded like because it seemed oddly familiar. I just don't know who it could have been. Either way, it brought some very interesting things to light, but it also kind of spoiled the story . . . maybe. I want to think that you wouldn't simply unveil the whole plot simply because Celestia found this Oracle.
And lastly, Luna. This alternative universe Luna. I want to know her angle because I see no reason why she would knock Celestia out. What does she gain from this? I want to think that maybe she will use Celestia as bait to attract Daymare or something, but that's too simple and very easily prone to failure, especially since it's Luna in the end. Even if Luna could pull off an act that makes it seem like she is fully willing to relinquish her moon and night and give full allegiance to the Solar Empire, I'm sure Daymare wouldn't believe it.
So I hope we can get another chapter sometime in 2015. I have quite a few questions I want answered.
YOU UPDATED!
I liked the talk AJ and Celestia had about what comes after the Queen's demise.
Loved the Oracle, too. She's so quirky and irritating, and predestination is a bitch.
Oh dear... Luna? Celestia? Is it the Queen? Oh dear...
5858099
Well, it did say she wasn't expecting it. I mean, she just got plastered by some Oracle that is cocky and irritating, one that seemingly wants to say she knows more about Celestia than Celestia knows about herself. She was crying. But that's my justification for it. I know that emotion transcends time, so the culmination of releasing this Luna from her prison and dealing with the Oracle could have reasonably affected her.
She did release Luna due to her overwhelming emotions when she was told that she was imprisoned in the sun.
This Oracle actually reminded me of some characters some of which are similar to having powers of prophesy. For some reason I am thinking Washu right now from Tenchi with the attitude.
Hmm I wonder if Pinkie was the reason for the Queen knowing the attack was coming. She clearly has that gift. I wonder if Celestia would figure that out given time as a possibility or is that too much of a stretch?
Also thanks for the new chapter it was great to read!
5858060
Man, there is something about the characterization in these really, really old fics. Maybe it's just nostalgia talking, but it just feels like people felt more free to make them their own.
Your Celestia is deep, nuanced, flawed, and feels incredibly real as a person. Bravo, and please consider sticking around for pushing this story a bit further to completion. The haters can bugger off and have their turn later - right now, the spotlight belongs to you.
It...It updated? It truly updated?
This is the most glorious day of my life.
I cannot sing the praises of this story enough. It's beautiful. Thank you for throwing such a beautiful piece of writing into the world.
5858787 and to also fuck over the status quo and bring back the night too i would wager. celestia endured what she did to luna for a millenium. it seems unlikely she would be so emotionally shaken by releasing this luna.
even more so i am iffy about her reaction to the whole questioning how she does stuff business from the oracle. you do not have a thousand years of life and not find doubt in yourself and what you do. it just seems these would be thoughts she had herself.........
also the whole predestination feel to the oracle felt out of place. it seems the Destiny in mlp is not things meant to happen but what you create. cutie marks are found through self discovery over being born with them or just sitting on your tookus till they appear. even a thing like the tree of harmony ultimately acts through creation than some form of determined future. the whole crystal csatle situation was done through creating the chest, and the mane six creating the keys to the chest by gaining better comprehension of the virtues that make harmony.
maybe creation an predestination are compatible to a degree, but it does not seem that way........ specially with there being alternate worlds in mlp and such.
That's better than expected from an oracle.
No matter what happened, Luna should have been freed then. If she stayed there, then later she would appear anyway, but become even more evil. (interesting how she seems to be all Nightmare Moon now without actually being corrupt)
And the Oracle would have been right to think bad of Celestia if she'd start the conversation by claiming she wants to destroy the world's first essence. (her plan is so rotten)
It's just because they can't avoid being rulers so far (unless somepony exchanges powers with them, meaning they should override their cutie mark assignments, in which case, they become mortal. They don't want that, do they.)
5859105
Well, with over a thousand years of life she could either learn everything or nothing about herself. There's a possibility that maybe Celestia busied herself with delusions to try and avoid staring the truth in the face, meaning that when it is thrown at her, it leaves her flustered.
But at this point, this Celestia is written to be very different from the one we know and love, and I think that's why this is so hard for me and you (you've convinced me on a couple points). I don't get an air of . . . royalty, of regalness coming from her in this story most of the time. I can't really pin down what she speaks like, but it's . . . odd. I like it because it is fresh, but it does provide some difficult situations such as these. She's doesn't seem like a monarch with thousands of years of experience. She seems very emotional and and precise. She has a vast wealth of knowledge, but it doesn't feel like she acts like it many times. I don't know . . . I've had this feeling about this Celestia for a while now. But like I said, I do enjoy her character.
5859168 celestia as we know her is capable of mistakes and can be distracted, can grow impatient. but she is also a pony who has kept herself from viewing other ponies as lesser, and is very down to earth. she has endured many hardships as well, as one would during all that time. she has probably lost ponies she loved, only to find new ponies to care for, all the while haunted by the sad fate of her sister.
put simply making her abnormally vulnerable is iffy. or at the very least requires the proper stimulus to breach her wisdom and experience.
5859202
Of course, saying that Queen Celestia and Princess Celestia are the same and only different due to something Luna did, not what Celestia did, might break through, seeing as Princess Celestia is still vehemently saying she is nothing like Daymare.
Its so nice to see an update. Celestia's take on democracy is spot on. It only works on a small scale and eventually all political systems are corrupted. The constitution says "Congress shall make no law...." and lo and behold congress has 5,000 laws on the subject and the president is starting to make decrees. All unconstitutional. And the fact nobody does shit about it means the constitution is dead and we're moving on to some other kind of government more like the kingdoms or empires of old. Hell, the elite will probably start wearing powdered wigs again-- May as well. Celestia's character is very believable. She's seen the cycle and they always call her back. Then they get new big ideas and go for it. Then they are corrupted and they need her back. So true. Good for the ponies. But we humans dont have a real demigod to call on, so we're screwed.
ITS ALIVE!!!!!!!!!
Eet's ALIIIIVE!!!
I know what I'm reading!!!
Whoops, forgot to point out something:
I think you meant to say "did not have the patience", here.
5858099
It's a bit premature to say the night is back. This Luna can no more provide an instant fix for that than Luna Prime. There's still no moon (which I would grant more importance than just reflecting some of the sun's light in this universe) and Queen Celestia maintains control of the sun.
5858129
Thank you for that. The prose isn't something most people comment on, so it's nice to see it works.
5858255
That all very much mirrors my thinking as well. This is a subject I like a lot, and I just happen to be reading a book about Napoleon - one of my favorite historical figures - right now, so it's all very much on my mind.
Then again, one could argue that a thousand years of experience could lead to insularity, and a certain amount of generational turnover in the leadership is important to keep a society healthy and developing.
5858676
I'm glad to hear that. I didn't originally have much of a plan for her except providing generic kindly advice, but I thought I should try to give her some color. The idea never reached its full potential, but at least she's a little bit memorable.
I was counting on the fact that pretty much every reader would guess that Queen Celestia will (probably) be defeated. Anything less predictable is hopefully still up in the air.
5858867
I was thinking of Doctor Manhattan from Watchmen, really, but less detached. But that's a very interesting observation about Pinkie Pie.
5859105
My reference point was "It's About Time," where Twilight's attempts to change the future only end up fulfilling it. Anyway, I see the predictions of the future in this bit as more descriptive than prescriptive.
5859554
Uh, yikes, thanks for that. My favorite typos are the ones that completely reverse the intended meaning...
It's time for the other great psychic cliche, Celestia: "Didn't see that one coming."
5858060 Don't let him take the satisfaction out of it. I for one very much enjoyed it. The Oracle was definitely an interesting character and Celestia's opinions seem very in line with her mindset, especially with how you've had her here.
Keep up the good work
The end of the previous chapter still says "Next chapter: Savior of Equestria (provisional)".
5858054 I guess you could not read it, and wait for more updates to accumulate until the reread is worth it. But then it's going to be there, sitting in your updates ... tempting you.
Maybe you should exile it to a special bookshelf for super-slow-updaters. Usually, I just reread the previous chapter, which makes for less of a cold start.
5858082 I think it's safe to say that Luna is not an agent of her sister. It seems likely that she is following her own plans, which may simply have called for stealing her sister's power, or (more troublingly) which she knows Celestia won't support. The glimpse we had of her was of an extremely determined pony. And the author has a lot of space for what her personality was like before spending centuries in solar lockup, much less after she spent all that time plotting ... whatever.
Nitpicks:
seem
shouldn't this be "empathize with"?
5857940
Just my two cents but if you are refusing to at least ponder an idea presented to you, just because that person comes off in an brash and grating manner, than you might need to open yourself up a little more and not react based upon an emotional stressor. Even the nicest of characters and people can be out to fool and decieve. Base an idea upon its merits and evidence, not it's 'politeness.'
Oh dear god,I was really good to see a new chapter! Also I feel your governmental conversation was interesting and not too heavy handed for either side.
Though you say you foreshadowed it, and maybe its just been a long time since I read the story but I assumed that this Luna was indeed dead. And even if she wasn't, I wouldn't have guessed she was in the sun! Like at best I'd have guessed Daymare!Celestia defeated Luna and fed the moon to the sun and it got big and weird
This was a cool chapter and I look forward to the next!
It very fair
So... Damn (and that's not a word I use lightly). What is Luna up to? Whatever her plan is, it seems shortsighted to immediately drain Celie like that. What could she be doing? My guess is she's going to try fighting Celestia and get herself killed, or at least get used in Celestia's plan
Still love this story! Good work and thanks!
Does this count as fulfilling the "Luna won't cooperate with your plans" part of the Seer's words?
While Princess Celestia's arguments against democracy are all very reasonable, they're also all flawed in that they neglect what I believe to be the strongest practical argument in favor of an electoral system, which is that it provides a built-in feedback mechanism for preventing the government from getting out of touch with the people. Even though Princess Celestia is immortal, benevolent, and presumably very knowledgable due to her long life, she is not all-knowing or able to comprehensively survey the population at regular intervals, which means that she risks losing a firm sense of how her ponies are doing and pursuing policies that are beneficial according to the information she receives but which hurt the average pony. Many dictatorships have fallen after a long period of everything apparently going well because there were problems bubbling under the surface that they weren't aware of or were ignoring, which is certainly something Celestia would be vulnerable to (even if not at her level of government, at lower levels).
This is all aside from the philosophical point that a government ought to be accountable to the people whom it governs, of course, which I firmly believe in. Even in the case of a clearly benevolent leader, the people should have the final say in whether or not they actually believe in that benevolence.
5857940
Because the merits of an idea are completely divorced from how big an asshole the person conveying it is?
A coke dealer, child slaver, or congressman, can be a really, really amicable person with an overwhelmingly charismatic personality. They can be really, really persuasive because they're ultra duper nice in treating you well, making you feel very important. Only problem is; they deal coke, enslave and sell children, and are congressmen.
A person can be a dick and have good ideas. Whether or not they've taken public relations class has literally nothing to do with the soundness of the ideas they're arguing in favor of. So why in fucks name would you judge the merits of their ideas with whether or not they spat in your face, or called you bad names over the course of a conversation? Because you got offended? Idiot.
Oho, that argument for a benevolent tyranny.
Of course, it seems very self-serving that the tyrant that will always be in charge believes that tyranny is the only truly viable government, given that it coincidentally allows her the most power, so can benefit herself as much as she wants it to. And it's easy to imagine just how anathema the idea of any tyranny is to AJ, who's been living under a terrible tyranny her entire life, and cannot imagine any tyranny that won't necessarily be "When misery is inflicted upon you (and it will be), you have no ability to change it."
The real... interesting thing about Sunshine Celestia that makes it hard to believe she has some form of reason behind her actions is just how almost farcically oppressive she is, in some cases. Deliberately screwing around with Daylight's head, establishing wide swaths of oppressed classes without the logic of having that control be obvious. Seems more like someone who has, as the Oracle suggested, decided to move from caring for her citizens to playing with them, or someone who is now allowing her methods to be ruled by her emotions, so created a society where everyone will continue to exist in "prosperity" tinged by the fact that Sunshine Celestia may not believe they deserve it, or something.
"Not every every seer can do what they think or say they can do, but it's not unheard of."
not every every seer?
Well, I can actually very well understand Celestia's reasoning.
Democracy is by far not a perfect system. Don't get me wrong, I respect democracy for what it is and that is the best form of government currently available for humankind.
Democracy assures that no truly bad politics happen, by relying heavily on compromises and failsafes. An evil and incompetent politician will not survive long, thus the chance of a tyranny is very small. Sadly all those compromises also prevent really good politics from happening. Long term plans can often not work effectively with compromises.
Because of that a truly benevolent and smart dictator will always be better than a democracy. Unlike us the Equestrians have the advantage of having an immortal, benevolent and caring entity at their disposal. Even though sometimes portrayed as bit detached from her subjects, Celestia is fully aware of the responsibility towards Equestria. Her meddling might seem immoral, but in the end has achieved a true utopia we couldn't even dream about.
And even if you favour a proper democracy in long term, a short term dictatorial or hybrid government will probably be better short term.
The population of a long time suppressed state does not seem to handle the newfound freedom of democracy very well. A simple look at history (France, Germany,...) and recent events (Egypt, Lybia,...) proves that much. The only way it seems a stable democracy can be established in first try is if the power is shifted slowly with enough time for the people to adapt. (Not counting USA here, because they had no real government at all before the revolution.)
5860935
To be fair, dictatorships and absolute monarchies have a way to check feedback from the government when it gets out of touch with the people. It just tends to result in violence because the system doesn't explicitly provide for it. And sometimes take generations to actually fall apart from, because by the time they're out of touch with the people they're probably also not providing for their needs, so eventually the ability to even control the populace falls apart due to lack of resources to do so.
Immortal or super-powered (or some other kind of magical controls) in fantasy tends to screw with that formula, because for the most part no mortals could ever stop Sunshine Celestia from doing what she does. If they revolted... it would have the effect that the revolt has had so far in this universe: some dissent but no real success. Sunshine universe has to have Celestia and Luna from another dimension, and Twilight (and Spike) who has knowledge of things that this universe could no longer possibly know, because there is probably only one way to deal with Celestia unless you're another alicorn: the Elements of Harmony. Without them, any revolt of any size could conceivably be put down by Celestia waltzing in and simply murdering everyone who didn't like her until the only left either liked her or were smart or cowardly enough to lie about it.
5861423
Although violent overthrow is always a possibility, I don't like to count on it as a feedback mechanism. After all, that means people getting hurt, and that makes Fluttershy cry:
(More seriously, armed revolutions tend not to start until things are very bad, if they do not win quickly they tend to get very nasty, even if they do they often end up not actually helping the proverbial "man on the street" that much, and they are often just corrupted into new dictatorships that are as out-of-touch as the ones they replaced. Democracy provides a designed-in method of providing feedback relatively frequently and accurately, without needing violence. Sure, sometimes it doesn't work too great, but that's something that demands tweaks to the basic formula, not wholesale abandonment)
5861376
Well, there's one problem with that--and any notion of a benevolent dictator--and that is, what is benevolent? What seems benevolent from the marble castle may appear more diabolical from the wooden hut, so to speak, and being that Celestia is ruling a country as an absolute monarch, she can't get out of the castle very much.
For example, suppose that some environmentalist were raised to be dictator of America tomorrow. Now, as a benevolent dictator, they want nothing but the best for all Americans, so they're going to order a wholesale restructuring of our energy usage in order to improve human health and clean our environment. No more shall we destroy mountains for coal, nor shall we risk towns through oil transport; instead, we shall see investment in other methods of acquiring and storing the energy we need for when we need it. And, indeed, we shall need less; existing buildings shall be retrofitted or replaced to take maximum advantages of known energy conservation techniques, and new ones shall be required to use them, pushing towards zero net energy consumption. A vast network of high-speed rails will replace airplanes, whisking people from city to city while running completely on electricity generated by nuclear and alternative plants. All cars, busses, and trucks shall be electric, and mass transit systems around the country shall be expanded.
All of this would certainly seem benevolent to the environmentalist in the White House; after all, it will mean the United States no longer contributing to global warming, it will mean that other negative health effects are mitigated, and it will keep America beautiful and health. As you might have noticed, though, these goals don't have universal support among the population. Indeed, I would say that a large part of the population actively opposes them. Ending coal-mining and oil-drilling doesn't sound like a promise to West Virginians or North Dakotans, but a threat to destroy their livelihood; requiring new buildings to use conservation methods reads as a challenge towards builders. Rail lines require space to be built, and who wants a new bit of track splitting their fields in two--not to mention that new high-speed infrastructure would cost a lot of money, especially in more densely-populated areas like the Northeast Corridor. And don't even get people started on their cars or public transit...
Even environmentalists might oppose specific parts of the plan. After all, those rail lines can't just teleport trains from city and city; there have to be lines between them. In many places, the best places to put those lines in a technical sense might be through environmentally sensitive areas. Similarly, many forms of alternative energy require large amounts of room, and can destroy or disturb natural habitat, while nuclear power plants can create their own issues with hot exhaust water (not to mention the waste, of course).
Whatever you think about these objections, they do exist, and in a democratic society they would have to be accommodated by the process, even if it takes longer. This won't, of course, completely eliminate them, but it means that they can be heard and many people who would otherwise suffer from a project can be dealt with. It might be tempting to imagine a dictator simply imposing a plan and forcing it through, and that might even look good in retrospect, but doing so is going to inspire a lot of resentment and dislike from the people whom it will be affecting negatively. These objections may not make it to the dictator, but he or she doesn't have to have bad intentions to cause them to happen, nor does having good intentions prevent them from existing.