"She attempts a powerful and dangerous spell and unfortunately, everything goes exactly as she plans."

I couldn't help but to think this when I first saw it.

Image: http://forum.encyclopediadramatica.se/attachments/just-as-planned-cat-jpg.10569/

Now that that's out of the way, time to get reading.

A nice little story with a morel. Don't see those very often.

Everything is going exactly as pla-Oh shit!

Shit. Celestia's pissed

Shit just got real.

Figures, the ONE time Twilight completes a spell properly, and it's for killing en masse.

The pacing felt a bit fast, but that may just be me skimming due to lack of sleep.

Huh. The wings are permanent? Nice touch.

I did feel it was a bit fast past. Not that that's a bad thing just something to keep in mind. However, I do think it was a rather clever idea. It's not usually Luna that has the heart to heart with Twilight. I think you could have played a bit more with how Twilight felt let down by Celestia. Which of course fits into the pacing. However, I enjoyed it and kinda think it's a shame that it hasn't gotten a bit more attention. I'm looking forward to reading more.

Glad i read this.

Dont get the Hooves of Clay name part though, but hey im dense i guess lol

Honestly, i liked the story, but where does the dark tag fit in?

>>808623808623

Attempted (possibly successful, depending on quite how much power Twilight put into the spell ) Genocide would be my guess...

"How do you think she managed to miss an entire changeling army invading Canterlot?"

The last section really felt... forced. I mean, it's all well and good that Celestia forgave Twilight and vice versa, but the pacing of the scene as a whole was rather fast.

Oh, I hate to comment twice in a row, but... "Sergeant" is spelled wrong. I didn't notice the first time through because I was enjoying the story.

>>808506808506

>>808580808580

>>808894808894

Thanks for the feed-back! I was trying for fast-paced but not rushed. It's a hard balance to achieve.

>>808911808911

*face hoof* Thanks! I'll fix it!

I have reached chapter 3, and now give my verdict.

Worth it.

The judgement has been passed, this story will now be thumbed up and tracked.

>>808585808585

Thank you!

"Hooves of Clay" is a play on "Feet of Clay." If you say if you say that someone you admire has feet of clay, you mean they have hidden faults. It's originally a reference from the Bible. . . "a golden idol with feet of clay", I think is the quote.

>>809143809143

That... makes a lot of sense thank you

This is a pretty good story, just kinda bummer that she did kill a load of being, and was just forgiven. At least she learned a lesson if nothing else.

Ive finished reading and the part were twilight snapped on Lyra got me good I was about about ready to believe she had become a homohobic homicidal maniac thank celestia it turned out to be a changeling

I find the whole fic very disturbing. Twilight murders and mutilates a changeling in the middle of a street and gets thumbs up from her friends. Then she commits a genocide on another sentient species and gets a scolding. That's insane! On Earth this sort of behaviour would result in her being charged with unjustified manslaughter and war crime and sentenced to many decades up to life in prison. But Celestia waves her hood and all is forgiven.

Or is this because it weren't ponies who died? There are a number of other sentient beings and species in Equestria. Is it okay to murder them without trial for any transgression or misbehavior? Is it okay to kill Spike if some other dragon eats a pony?

You might say I'm nitpicking, and it's just a fanfic, and there are many other dark stories here. But there is a difference. People don't empathize with Fluttershy from Cupcakes. But I'm sure there are many who would nod in agreement to your Twilight's action, without properly considering what it signifies. And than they will go on with a strengthened belief that it's okay to hurt those not like us. Which is frankly what racism and other discriminations are based on.

PS: Taking aside my complete disagreement and disgust with the underlying idea, the fic itself is well written. I particularly enjoyed Luna's scene. Also the vampire scare and Shining's troubles were quite hilarious.

>>810096810096

Thanks for the feedback!  All I should say on the matter is that I have a different take on the situation. Sorry it didn't work for you.

Uh....oh....

Yeah.... that's a problem.

That is true, Twilight, but don't forget you're own convictions merely to be in harmony with others.           your

>>822799822799

Thank you! Aye ar uh gud spellur!

Wait... Wasn't this chapter already up before?...

I swear I've read this before.. I read so many fics at the same time that it could be my mind playing tricks on me...

I'm confused.

Is that it? This didn't affect any of them in any meaningful way. Half of the charcters could have been removed and it would make no difference at all.

>>822917822917

Heavily revised the final scene.

1. Maul a disguised changeling

2. Kill all changelings within a certain mile radius using first changeling's blood

3. Yell at princess

4. Get taught history lesson by other princess

5. Cry eyes out

6. ???

7. Profit

Much better i would say.

Plus adds the political aspect that it would have, yay

Very nice.

I don't know why, but I seem to have a strong interest in fanfictions detailing Twilight Sparkle's inner darkness. I especially love how you used Princess Luna to warn Twilight about the consequences of her rash actions and aggression.

Well well... everything seems relatively wrapped up, but there's still an "incomplete" tag. So, more horseshoes yet to drop?

Ah, much better! I remember the original version and I have to say that this feels a lot smoother. Thank you for splitting it out into its own chapter, too... I wouldn't have caught it otherwise.

And hey, you got featured on EqD! That means you're doing something right! Congrats!

Poor Twi. Angry Celestia is not a good sign.

Thumbs up!

I have to agree with >>810096810096 . Twilight committed a horrible crime, and her punishment absolutely needs to be more severe.

To be honest, I'm having trouble figuring out what the moral is supposed to be. "Don't make rash decisions without talking them over?" "Realize you can be wrong sometimes?" It's kind of weak.

Luna is kind of a hypocrite, isn't she? Her lesson is rather undermined by the way she takes Twilight with her and dumps the poor guard in a fountain. Celestia is way too focussed on her own feelings; I was hoping she'd be more worried about the effects of Twi's actions on Equestria or on the changeling swarm. Basically, I didn't like the characters or the plot. Really, they all, to varying degrees, strike me as jerks in this story.

One part that I did like but which the author didn't expand on, was Twi's feeling of betrayal from the events of "A Canterlot Wedding". I can understand her feeling that she couldn't trust anypony but herself on that basis.

It's a decent enough fic, started off great with the grimdarkery and had the possibility to really go somewhere but it descended into your typical weepy forgiveness that you see in pony fanfiction.

Congratulations on being featured on EQD, it was a great story

>>836058836058

I agree. The plot seemed to be heading toward a war fic with Twilight defying the Princess and leading a charge, either on her own or with her friends, straight into changeling territory, all the while the darkness in her heart works its way out.

I got pulled in by the synopsis/picture on EqD, but was slightly disappointed.

Your prose is full of clutter: words that you don't need, and descriptions that add nothing. It makes the writing fall flat on its face. If you want a term for it, what you lack is word economy. You don't make your words count, so they hold little weight, and in turn, hold little of my interest.

The second big thing is that you don't, quoting vonnegut's rules of writing, "Start as close to the end as possible." Your story starts with an event and the reader has no way of knowing its significance, and there's no clear plot being displayed.

Anyway, I'm just trying to offer some constructive criticism.

Uh...

...

*Added to favorites*

As others have said, it looked as though it could have gone way darker, but headed itself off with weepy forgiveness.  Still pretty good.  Still enjoyable, but I was excited to see if there would be some actual rebellion.  I love me some grimdark, usurping Twilight.

One thing has been bugging me, are the wings really permanent?

If so, then they could be used as (/declared to be) a symbolic punishment. Kinda like a mark she has to bear for her crime.

Just a thought of mine, in case you want to do a followup.

>>836655836655

They're permanent until Luna takes them away or they're otherwise dispelled. That's a good idea about them being punishment. Scarlett letter / Mark of Cain sort of thing.

>>836058836058

>>836317836317

>>836592836592

I love bad-ass Twilight, too. But a real rebellion story would have to be much, much longer, and I was very strongly advised by a friend whose judgement I trust, to start with a short story. "Don't waste your time starting an epic until you find out if people like your writing," he said. Looks like it was good advice!

I got a feeling that Twilight is just a step below being an alicorn in terms of power, and because evil gets all the really cool stuff as well as an increase in power, Twilight could probably turn herself into some sort of pony demon (probably with large bat like wings)  and be able to match Celestia or Luna in terms of raw power if she becomes her own equivalent of Nightmare Moon.  

The one bit of the season 2 finale that I enjoyed was Twilight realizing for the first time that Celestia could be wrong and that she could be beaten.  I always thought that Celestia being knocked off of her pedestal of perfection in front of Twilight had great potential for a story.  I'll read about Twilight questioning Celestia any day of the week, and I like seeing a fic that goes into that.  

But there's one glaring problem that detracts heavily from the story and really isn't even necessary to begin with.

Twilight Sparkle was planning to commit genocide and no one cares.

When you introduce an element like mass murder and planned genocide, the story can't be about anything else.  As soon as Celestia makes that reveal with the map, all I can think of as a reader is “Oh wow, Twilight was going to murder thousands if not millions to solve a problem.  That's kind of a big deal.”  The rest of the scene showing Twilight openly defying and questioning Celestia's judgment and ability to protect her kingdom completely takes a backseat.

The problem is that the only importance Twilight's actions should have is to make it clear that Celestia and Twilight have a problem.  This is how the characters in the story act and react, which makes sense as the story is about Celestia and Twilight having a problem.  But when you've got this huge massive bomb of “mass murder and planned genocide” and then point off to the side and ask the reader to focus on personal issues between the characters it's jarring to say the least.  

The characters don't seem to really care about Twilight's actions, and rightly so since this isn't a story about them.  But when those actions are so important and meaningful and quite frankly evil, when characters gloss over them they come off as inhuman.  Twilight and Celestia laughing over tea when she'd committed mass murder just a few hours ago feels like some kind of anti-catharsis.  Even though what is intended to be the main conflict has been resolved, any regrets Twilight has seem to revolve around her relationship with Celestia.  Not once is it ever flatly stated that Twilight regrets murdering the changelings because murder itself is wrong.  The line about changelings being drones addresses this somewhat.  But even if one sees no issue with killing drones and there is no moral conflict, that information comes so late that it feels like more of an afterthought than a justification.

I would strongly recommend taking changelings invading Ponyville and Twilight's plans to attack changeling lands out of the story entirely.  Twilight should still be trying to protect ponies, definitely, but her actions shouldn't be something so important that they completely distract from the rest of the story.

--Windfox

pissedlestia is badlestia

I really wish they'd make episodes like this.

At first, I thought this story was about Twilight becoming a nightmare, with the cover image and all.    What if she did?  

>>837056837056

I have to assume you missed what Twilight said right after she read the letter from Queen Chrysalis. "Genocide" is not a term that can be applied to mindless insects. Nobody is accused of genocide for spraying a wasp nest. (Except perhaps by PETA members.)

Even if the changelings were sentient, I don't think that a society of prey animals would get terribly upset over the destruction of a swarm of parasites that intended to suck their entire nation dry. I doubt gazelles have much sympathy for lions.

>>837569837569

I mentioned that bit.  Like I said, it comes so late in the story that it comes across as more of an afterthought than a justification at that point.  Until that moment in the story is reached, a reader has no reason at all to think that changelings aren't sentient.  Bring it up much earlier than that so there's at least an explanation for the seemingly callous reactions.

Even if changelings are mindless drones, I feel like Twilight's actions and the lack of reactions still resonate harshly enough to distract the reader from the story at hand.

>>837813837813

Hmn... yeah, point taken. But the changeling were invading, in the process of sucking the life out of Ponyville. It's not murder to defend oneself or others, particularly when at war. Or does the thought of mind-parasites secretly draining the love out of ponies fall into the category of acceptance of another culture no matter how different or horrifying?

Celestia is using her Canterlot Voice? Shit's gonna go DOWN!

Nice Twilight, you pissed off Celestia, now, you have escaped? (Under watch of Luna, but still, escaped!)

This is so exciting so far!

I'll have to read the rest on Monday, maybe tomorrow, I have guests then though! They hate ponies too!

>>836801836801

I think you write pretty well in general, but I can't quite get into stories that reveal a pony's 'true character' to be very far from canon and just expect us to 'accept it'.

If there were some additional chapters preceding the beginning of this story, like following the events that led to Twilight's theft of the magic tome, particularly if you can show us how she goes from that to this, that'd be perfect in my book.

>>810096810096

Well, we haven't had the "all is forgiven" yet.  And from the thought that has been put into this scenario, I don't think the author will go that route.

Remember, we live in a world where people believe it is okay to kill others because of their political affiliations, or who they want to boink, and ofttimes their leaders approve these actions.  The enlightenment you proclaim is rare here.  We saw the ponies leave Spike on an ice floe until it melted, giving him a bad cold (in Winter Wrap-Up), and we've heard ponies make racist jokes and seen them be mean to other ponies (Putting Your Hoof Down).

>>837813837813

I agree.  I did a last-minute ass-pull in one of my more recent stories, and it hasn't been sitting right with me since.  Twilight should protest in her moment of rebellion that the drones are merely that, no matter when in the writing the author decided upon it.  Ender was not a genocide, in the end, and Twilight is no murderer.

However, the story would have much more consequence if the drones were independent, and she had killed a swarm of spies.  (Legally not murder nor genocide, but an unsanctioned act of national defense and an international incident.)  She has acted with authority before, when punishing Snips and Snails with mustaches and hard work, and when commanding Ponyville to disaster-proof the town.  The pilot episode seems to indicate that, even before the return of Nightmare Moon, Twilight was in the business of deciphering prophecies and advising the Princess on matters both dark and dire.

Princess Luna gave her a flat stare. "The moon is in the sky now and I never repeat an order." There was a flash of dark blue magic and Snowdrop was no longer in the room.

Best. Logic. Ever. I love it!

Soooo, Twilight just got away with mass murder, scott-free?

That kind'a killed the story for me. Death Magic and all, nopony bats an eyelash at the end. :(

>>837056837056 changlings are not people im sure its the same as setting fire to a house of bunnies frowned upon but not huge consequences

Crime: 2nd degree murder, theft, treason, blasphemy/use of black magic, treason, war crimes, 1st degree murder (multiple accounts), obstruction of justice.

Punishment: She has to stay in the rose room instead of the star suite.

I want to move to Equestria!

>>838693838693

Some good ideas, there. However, in the first draft I did have the drones as independent beings and, consequently, had to delete a couple of hate-filled comments calling me the worst thing since Hitler.

I'm wondering what you consider an "ass-pull", though. Celestia's forgiveness? She's just witnessing another incipient Nightmare Moon scenario which gets cut short by Twilight's heart-felt apology. To me, her action seem in-character.

Hey... where are your stories? I wanted to check them out.

>>838860838860

The changeling were invading, in the process of sucking the life out of Ponyville. It's not murder to defend oneself or others, particularly when at war.

Plus, non-sentient drones: Stomping bugs isn't murder at any time.

I liked the story and felt that Twilight's character wasn't far off, she does have a tendency to go overboard, like being tardy.

Although for a dark story, I was not expecting that much humor in it.

As for Celestia's character, she would do what she felt was best for her nation and her ponies (based upon what characterization she has had).

Twilight practically destroyed Ponyville and only got a lecture. While this was more severe it is also more severe on Twilight, she will have to live with it, maybe her own self-imposed punishment is worse. What is the point of punishment anyway?

@The beginning of the story

Actually, the more you sleep the more tired you are, Twilight

>>840615840615

That's very thoughtful, thank you. Yes, punishment means different things to different people. Some see it as revenge or "payment" for bad deeds. Others see it as a way to correct bad behavior with... negative feedback, I guess you could call it. If you see it the second way, there's not much point in imposing punishment on someone who has already truly decided that they were in the wrong. The solutions Twilight proposed, exile or being turned to stone, are only punishment indirectly; the main purpose is to protect others from her by removing or incapacitating her.

As for the story: OHMYGOSHOHMYGOSHOHMYGOSH!!!  We should have known from the time Spike recognized the seal that something like this was going to happen!  Gah!  Celestia should have set it to alarm when the book was even opened!  Twilight, run away!  Celestia needs some time to cool down!  And seriously, using BLACK MAGIC?  Without even consulting somepony like Luna (or anypony else) who had experience with it?  Bad move.  Very, very bad move.

As for the writing... It is a little cluttered.  A cold re-read and edit would probably vastly improve it.  But mediocre prose is acceptable when matched with a compelling story, and a boring story will remain boring even if it's written by the most masterful wordsmiths in the world.  So, if you had to be lax on one or the other, you picked the right one.

And then, Twilight Sparkle was a bat-pony.  And her trying to jump out from under her own wings?  Hilarious.  

The last two chapters were, perhaps, too easy.  But, still more than worth the reading.  And it's quite apparent from Chrysalis's letter that Twilight got the results she wanted, without having to go into full-on predator mode and wipe out an entire species.   I think we can call that a win!  

>>841721841721

Thanks for the critique! I think you're right in that the writing would have benefited from a bit of a lay-by before publication. Oh, well... next time.

I'm glad you liked the bit about Twilight being scared by her own wings.

By the short and curlies? I've just had jaw surgery and that rainbow face is pretty much the expression my wired jaw twisted itself into upon reading. Ow. And good job, that was pretty funny.

Oh, and we all know how much Pinkie loves bats.

Nice job overall, but I find it hard to believe Twilight would do anything like this. Her actions seemed very over-the-top throughout the entire thing, and I doubt she would actually hold Celestia responsible in the way she did. While she does go overboard sometimes (Lesson Zero, for example), this was far too much for me to really believe. In addition, the song thing with Luna didn't really fit in with the rest of the story. If we were talking about an actual episode of the show, sure, a song fits in quite nicely. But this is a work of literature, so, in my opinion, songs don't have a place anywhere in a story.

While that stuff may seem harsh, I thoroughly enjoyed everything else. It wasn't perfect, but perfection is unfair to expect of almost anyone. You did a very good job with this.

I...I like it!

Nothing was really jarring to me as others point out, the pacing was OK for a short story.

Similarly to another Changeling fic, I don't know what the feeling this makes me have is. It could be over-stimuli from the many transitions between dark, humor, and sadness.

  -Delta-

If you don't tell us right now, I'm gonna let Pinkie Pie go all random on your sorry flank!

most epic threat ever

Mom U mad?

I can count on one hand the number of dark fics that keep everypony in character. That hand is now full.

Luna's "song" was a nice touch. Did you create the lyrics, or is it a reworded piece?

>>852907852907

Thank you! I wanted very much to make them all keep to canon character despite the extreme circumstances.

>>854858854858

Thanks! The lyrics are completely original. The tune I used to frame them was Down by the Sally Gardens but the meter would probably fit many old Irish ballads of the time.

The gates to Tartarus are opened with the keys of good intentions...

But yeah, nothing wrong with killing off the Changelings. They would had sucked Equestria dry if they succeeded, and then move on to new grounds. Whaddaya gonna do then? Let them be?

Its time the ponies and us readers know the truth about the world; that there are always gonna be some evil bastards that you simply cannot be redeemed, that you cannot reason with, that you simply cannot make friends with. And if they come for you, you must either learn how to put them down, or they will put you and your friends and loved ones down.

>>823453823453 #6 is get forgiven.

SHIT ITS THE FUZZ

"That's politics, Twilight"

Oh lawd I lost it there

>>871053871053

Comment + icon = LMAO!

So the punishment for causing genocide theft and black magic is epic bat wings and tea with the princess

That was a very very good story. One of the best I've read in a long while.

I, like some earlier commenters, was expecting it to be a 'Hero's Descent' sort of fic, literally Twilight turning into Nightmare Moon. However, I enjoy how it turned out a great deal more than I would have if it was a dark ending (and it also allows me to try to write a dark fic along these lines without being called a plagiarist).

Also, Luna's song, breathtaking, if I do say so myself.

Thank you for such a wonderful read.

>>871053871053 No one ever listens right away it's always ask a question then shit hits the fan, no one listens to orders.

Nice story, hopin for some evil Twi but that's close enough.

First of all, great story. (And a somewhat misleading cover, but I think that turned out quite well to be honest )

I notice Ender is mentioned further up in the comments. Being familiar with that story, I didn't actually consider Twilight's actions as 'murder' in the conventional sense, though I do understand how it would seem a bit off to some.

Personally, Twilight's reaction to Chrysalis was sufficient explanation for the relatively minor reaction to the killings, but perhaps it should have been mentioned earlier that changelings were sub-sentient, for the benefit of those who don't see it that way from the start.

It was... well written. ish.

I honestly didn't like it. It made Twilight and Celestia seem like soulless monsters. Nopony involved was concerned that Twilight had killed uncounted changelings, and planned on killing the rest. How would Fluttershy feel about that? She is best friends with butterflies, wasps, bees, and every other kind of insect I'm sure. Celestia didn't seem to mind at all.

Not to mention Twilight has access to dark forbidden magic capable of killing everything in a certain radius, and uses it. I can see her having it, she's Celestia's most faithful student. But stealing it and using it? And so damn easily. Talk about not being able to be trusted. It shouldn't matter what the reason was, that should be unacceptable. And to end the story with them laughing over tea and joking about how smart Twilight is compared to other ponies?

The ponies said things in character, but they acted completely out of character. Even when the changelings invaded Canterlot, there were no casualties. Chrysalis didn't kill anypony, and none of her changelings died. Hell, Twilight only made one dizzy when she zapped it in the show. That was the worst she did after Celestia had already fallen and they were on a desperate spree to save the entirety of Equestria. But her motives and OOC aren't what bothers me.

It's the complete and total lack of guilt. Not just from Twilight, but from Celestia, Luna, everybody in the story. She's not upset about betraying Celestia's trust, she's upset for argueing with her. She's not in trouble for what she did, she's in trouble for how she handled Celestia. She's in trouble for treason, not for murder, genocide, cruelty to animals, casting a death spell, etc. She's in trouble for a social faux pas. That's all.

I dunno. You hinted at her irrational anger, that maybe she was being driven by some other force. And then you revealed that it was her sense of righteousness, not some otherworldly entity or fowl presence. And there was no remorse for that. Only at her percieved threat to Celestia's rule and ponies; ponies that are compared by Celestia to be the intellectual equivelents of goldfish. And a few minutes later Twilight compares Chrysalis's changelings intellectually to animals. Animals that Twilight has already slaughtered. Do you see the issue I have with this? Do you see where maybe I might not be able to empathize with these characters?

I'm disappointed because the story could have touched this, deeply. You could have addressed this and still had the same story line. Instead of Twilight instantly acting as an angry raging unicorn and startling readers, you could have had her work slowly and build up to it. What if the changeling in her library had tricked her into attacking Lyra on sight? Twilight's irrational immediately violent and lethal response is completely distressing. And then the carelessness and guiltless conscious actually starts when she uses it's blood to complete a dark ritual.  The distress I felt as a reader never let up. I only finished this because I thought there might be some moral, some dark punishment for Twilight's actions. Maybe a sliver of regret. Maybe Twilight would be redeemed when we found out she was influences by some outside force.

Instead I was left with an image of two soulless individuals having tea and laughing, making jokes about how much better they were. I have absolutely no compassion for Twilight or Celestia in this story. But for all that, I'm in the minority. Apparently you did something very well, and I congratulate you for that. I'm also in absolutely no real position to criticize you, my stories are awful and arguably more OOC.

So good job on the grammar and editing, and getting the ponies personalities across, if not their characters. I did like the song. It was cool. Sorry for the backhanded comment, but yeah. You got plenty of people who like it, so I figured one angry guy who doesn't really isn't going to hurt much. I'm not gonna vote it down because it's mechanically sound, but I sure as heck aint thumbs uping it.

>>988772988772

Well, thanks for the time you took to do the review, even if you didn't like it.

One thing I have learned from all the negative reviews is that I ought to be much more explicit in any future fics.

>>899885899885

Thanks for the review! There was a point where I could have gone the Nightmare Moon route and made it a much longer, much darker fic, but I wanted to... well, test the waters. If I couldn't write a short fic that was worthwhile, I didn't want to waste my time on a long one.

>>988772988772

This describes my own reaction to this perfectly. Almost every single point I agree on.

I also want to say a few things about comments like this: >>837569837569

First of all, that mindset is borderline sociopathic. "It's not sapient (I believe you mean "intelligent," not just "feeling"; even a fly is sentient), so it doesn't matter if you kill it." ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! No... No. You can't be, because you said that before I even read this story...

Even if they aren't sapient, they must be sentient--capable of experiencing pain and suffering (you can't deny this because they are shown writhing in pain after fighting the Bearers)--in fact, it arguably makes this whole thing worse! If they aren't sapient, then they simply can't be evil. Gazelles might not have sympathy for lions (ignoring that they can't because they're not sapient themselves...), but the lions aren't "evil," they're hungry! If you're going to compare a Changeling to a lion, then their feeding on Canterlot and Ponyville is no more an act of war than ponies "enslaving" cows and sheep--shown to be sapient, but treated as if they're not!

Killing something for acting on its instincts when it is incapable of thinking for itself and therefore incapable of fighting those instincts is something even we try to avoid somewhat with our bear-proof garbage cans and insect repellents. Is there truly no other way Changelings can be dealt with? And on the subject of insects, you may not want to get bitten by a mosquito, but you sure as heck wouldn't want to eradicate them; they play a major role in great swaths of biospheres all over Earth, and extinction would mean mass ecological disaster. In all Twilight's supposed research (when did she study Changelings, anyway?), did none of this potential with Changelings ever occur to her? Considering their abilities, did she not even once consider the possibility that Changelings might play an important role in the life-cycle of certain creatures, maybe even ponies themselves, and eradicating them would lead to things as bad as Equestria being taken over by them?

Of course not, but worse than that, not one, single pony seemed to consider any of the above.

I don't want to come across as a hater; I'm not, but this story seriously rubbed me wrong in all the worst places, perhaps especially because, to be honest, I can see all the horror tailsopony and I pointed out as actually being in character (considering the sad facts of how cows, sheep, zebras, and buffalo are treated, just to name stuff off the top of my head). You're undoubtedly good; especially of note is your prose being so clear, but still... I wish I could say that your plot-work needs a complete overhaul, but I've already admitted this could be, from a certain point of view, in character. That, though, still doesn't excuse the fact that this story started with a plan of genocide (do what you will with the lore of the hive, but the queen is obviously sapient and cares for them--remember the line about it "being her job to feed her subjects"?) and even though you (hastily) pulled it together at the end, it didn't have the weight it should have had through the rest of the story. (Easy fix, I suppose. Just mention why Twilight thinks killing Changelings is a-o-kay earlier and the issue is instantly moot.)

The one problem I can potentially see calling you out on is that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of character development. Twilight and Celestia have an "argument," Twilight gets a lesson from Luna, Twi and Cele share tears and make up.Twilight gets her lesson from Luna, true enough, but it doesn't seem to make her grow in any obvious way--she was already regretful, at least on the way to real guilt, so she doesn't "grow," becoming different in any overt way.

I thumb-up reluctantly for your skill and (detestable) IC character interpretations, but I won't favorite...

>>14371241437124

Okay, I hate having to point this out, but it seem that all of the remarks decrying changeling genocide have missed the point.  

The whole impetus behind the story isn't about the changelings at all. Twilight would never have carried out her plan: That's why the book had been locked away in her basement. The whole exercise of creating the plan was her way of coping with her disappointment and anger at Celestia for being clueless about and then losing to Crysalis. This is clinical Transference: Twilight can't admit to herself that her anger and disappointment is aimed at her beloved teacher, so it gets transferred to the changelings, who are at fault for exposing Celestia's weakness. Planning their destruction is a simple revenge fantasy that is so common as to be unremarkable were it not expressed in Twilight's unusual dedication to meticulous organization and planning.

The changelings invading Ponyville just triggered something Twilight had prepared… but never could have used in cold blood. Suddenly discovering enemies on her doorstep set off a panic response, initiating an action she had already prepared for. At that point, sentience or intelligence or having a changeling wife and children (or little chitinous puppy) back home doesn't matter (or even occur) to her at all. That's typically how people (and, by extension, ponies) work.

You say that the other ponies don't discuss the morality of the situation. Not at length, no, but Applejack, Rainbow Dash and Pinkie Pie do react with horror at Twilight's actions. No, there isn't whole scenes dedicated to discussing the socio-political and ethical ramifications of it all, but I feel that sort of stuff slows a story down and falls into the "telling" instead of "showing" category… and it bores the heck out of me.

However, I will risk a bit of boredom to enlarge upon this just a bit. If mosquitoes are breeding in my pond, I'm going to get rid of them. I understand their place in the environment but I will not risk Malaria or West Nile to accommodate them. The natural environment is a competitive arena and I am programmed by millions of years of evolution to win, not to make accommodations or give up. If an intelligent being  (with a darling little golden-haired daughter named Amillia) threatens my life or the life of friends or family, I will do the quickest, surest thing to remove that threat.* To do otherwise is to willingly declare  those lives worth less than that of the aggressor's. Again, none of which matters in a reactive situation. People act, THEN think.

Another issue (which you didn't raise but which many other people did) is the commenters who decry that Twilight gets of scott-free with no punishment for her crimes. I don't know how much clearer I could have made it: Celestia was on the edge of banishing or turning Twilight to stone. She wasn't joking about that. She outlined her philosophy about punishment very clearly: Twilight avoided serious punishment because she was truly sorry for what she had done.**

Luna saved Twilight from that fate by both pointing out how wrong it is to act unilaterally on a matter so important just because one has the power to do so (by providing two negative examples) and by helping to untangle her feelings about the whole thing.

Anyway, thanks for the comment. I'm glad you took the time, even though you had negative things to say. If your thoughts hadn't been so well-organized and articulate I wouldn't have bothered to reply.

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* This is not necessarily lethal force, but being shot by someone because you held back out of a misplaced sense of sympathy is always embarrassing.

** I'm truly mystified by some people's attitude of sympathy toward the invading, parasitic changelings when coupled with the insistence that Twilight MUST BE PUNISHED!!! An invading army gets a pass while a confused but well-meaning pony needs to have revenge exacted upon her? All I can think is that there is some emotional bias at work.

>>14395191439519

I know or suspected all of that was your intention--that's exactly why I said it was a (potential) in-character interpretation. Every single one of those things is perfectly understandable, if not reasonable. However, you keep using words like "war," "aggressor," and "army," when that is not accurate if the Changelings are not sapient. They are only acting by instinct and/or their queen's will (you don't make this very clear), the latter of which would be comparable to us going into battle with an "army" of dogs--you can't blame the dogs. Of course you would still shoot them, but again I must impress that decrying them "evil" (as Twilight does without anyone calling her out on this; not even Cele who knows they are not sapient and should know better) or anything similar is simply going too far.

Evolution is at its very base an instinct to "win," of course, but we, and presumably ponies, have gained the ability to recognize that if anyone wins, it becomes a loss for everyone as the ecosystem spirals out of control. No one states this outright; the closest we get is Cele's ultimatum, and even that is more politics with her "peace and harmony" coming in as more an afterthought ("That's politics! Oh, and I like peace and harmony, too."). By the end, it's good that Twilight accepts her judgment, but the way it's written makes it come off as her accepting such only because it's Cele, not because it's the "moral high-ground" (not that this is necessarily bad judgment on your part--it's still frighteningly IC).

I didn't mention Twilight not being punished because that's pretty much the only thing I can agree with. I like your interpretation of Cele's view on crime and punishment, and believe that it would work in Equestria's society; I just wish that she would have an at least similar, if not the same, view regarding Changelings. Yes, there were apparently quite a few Changelings in Ponyville, but where's the proof that they were there maliciously? If Bon Bon is any indication, short-term feeding doesn't have any (too horrible) side-effects, and--most importantly!--the real Lyra was not hurt or imprisoned in any way, so the offending Changeling trying to "take her place" long-term in order to get a foothold on "conquering" Ponyville is actually the least likely scenario.

However, Spike was forgiven for his rampage, yet Chrysalis's begging for continued peace is automatically brushed off as a lie? Spike may have said he learned his lesson, but he's young and a known danger (how many times in history has a child promised not to steal from the cookie jar, only to do it again next week?); on the other hand, we have another who also (apparently) apologized for what her instincts drove her to do, yet is still accused of lying without proof. Not even the parasprites were treated near this badly, and they're arguably just as bad. Given the Changeling's status as not sapient, this is an accurate enough comparison, yet the parasprite's much more successful "invasion" of Ponyville did not mark them for extermination. Again, still not saying this is out of character for anyone, but damn hypocrisy--especially hypocrisy that's not called out by someone who should know better (Cele).

Well, Twilight decrying the changelings as evil is, in part, her emotional reaction but it is also a fairly understandable assessment considering that Crysalis damn near succeeded in conquering Canterlot. (And it was her stated intention to continue on to the rest of the kingdom.) Someone who wants to devour my friends, family, and country… yeah, I feel perfectly justified in calling them evil, regardless of their motivations. If not, then any aggression by any person (or state) can be justified as a perfectly natural biological urge to dominance, even if they don't dress it up in the usual excuses. So, I still find it nearly impossible to believe that a race of prey animals to would have any sympathy for a parasitic/predatory species. Is calling them evil unfair? Partially, yes, but the ponies wouldn't see it that way and would certainly not offer themselves up as a buffet for the changelings on the basis of ecological balance. I believe that any of the ponies that went through the attack on Canterlot wouldn't have any problem with Twilight calling the changelings evil.

As for Twilight accepting Celestia's judgment merely because of the source, that wasn't my intention at all. My bad for not making it clearer that it is partially because Twilight has calmed down enough to think clearly and partly because of what Luna said to her.

It is true there was no proof that the changelings were in Ponyville with malicious intent. But Twilight was in no mental state to wait for proof. Occam's Razor was good enough for her.* Again, I was portraying imperfect ponies in stressful situations, not calm, purely rational characters that would sit down and analyze their every action before acting.

It wasn't Crysalis' plea for peace that was rejected as a lie; it was her insistence that she wasn't behind the incursion into Equestria. (There was no apology, just denial.) Celestia definitely accepted her plea for peace. Yet again, Twilight's extreme reaction to the situation was because of emotional and psychological distress, not considered analysis: I don't think the term hypocrisy applies.

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* I take issue with the likelihood that the changelings could have been there for any benign purpose. Taking the place of pony's loved ones is a malign act in and of itself. A lion sneaking through tall grass toward a zebra may not be intent on killing and eating it, but it wouldn't be wise to believe the lion is just out for a stroll.

>>14423471442347

If I didn't make myself clear, the hypocrisy is that Twi hates Changelings where before she was able to see from the other's perspective. The dragon in Dragonshy would have caused mass death across Equestria, but was allowed to go on his(?) way. The Diamond Dogs, after kidnapping and enslaving a pony, were (supposedly) allowed to live after "learning" the lesson of choosing their slaves more carefully next time. Rarity and Pinkie Pie were called out by Fluttershy for calling Iron Will a monster multiple times, but it was obvious they didn't take her seriously. When Snips and Snails endangered the lives of everyone in Ponyville, it's treated as no big deal after the ursa minor is banished to the Everfree Forest. In Dragon Quest, none of them showed the slightest bit of concern for the phoenix egg, even though they likely saw Spike raise it above his head (since they appeared silently instead of rushing in, making lots of sound), and afterwards allowed Spike to keep Peewee instead of return him(?) to his very well-and-alive family. Even when the buffalo went so far as to call war against Apploosa, they were eventually forgiven when a peaceful agreement was made. In every single confrontation Twi had faced before Queen Chrysalis, she was easy to hand out her forgiveness after the danger was dealt with or put out of sight (ignoring Discord, towards whom we don't know how she feels after sealing him again). How then, is it not hypocritical when she makes one exception towards a nonsapient species who did nothing worse (objectively) than any of these other cases, most of them concerning sapients? Furthermore, how could Cele, receiving letters on all of these events, not realize this and call Twi out on it, especially considering her peace agreement with Chrysalis (which, as you just implied, she doesn't consider a ruse on the Changeling's part)?

Also, I question your definition of "malicious", since the only way a Changeling can feed (especially after the attack on Canterlot) is to disguise themselves as a loved one, AND that feeding produces no symptoms on the short-term--"malicious" is not different enough from "evil" (you still can't say that a lion killing a gazelle is being malicious, because that's the only way that lion can feed and continue living). As for the long-term, what happened to Shining could be only due to Chrysalis's mind spells and not an actual effect of her feeding, so that's still unknown, but the fact remains that at least that Changeling had no intention of replacing Lyra long-term given it didn't do anything to her. Yes, replacing a loved one can be hurtful, but that's about as far as words can go to describe Changelings accurately; even then, that hurt is not intended, as intention to harm requires sapience (even ebola doesn't intend to kill its "victims," never mind intend to do so in such in violent manner).

Even with such comparisons, feeding off of love is obviously not the same as feeding off of flesh. Even after Queen Chrysalis's feeding off of Shining, likely doing as much damage to his soul/emotions(?), mind, and body(?) as a Changeling can do while feeding, he's implied to have recovered completely--something that cannot be said of any prey eaten by any predator that I know of. Considering that and the fact their feeding (short-term) causes no pathology, even calling them a parasite is just a bit of a stretch, since ponies can offer themselves (short-term) as a buffet with no risk to themselves (with the potential for symbiosis?). I hardly expect this, but given the lore you developed, it is still a possibility, and not something suicidal the way you presented it.

The situation may have been stressful in the beginning and everything being reaction without much thought is to be expected, but afterwards, once everyone has had a chance to calm down, analyze, and talk things through, then why didn't at least some of what I've been talking about be brought up?

(Be careful to use the reply function next time, otherwise I won't see when you respond! After all, isn't this little discussion fun?)

>>14458011445801

Replied! Yes, this discussion is great fun!

I can see how Twi's attitude toward the changelings is different from most of the other antagonists (leaving aside Discord) but it's not a considered opinion, it's a purely emotional, subconscious reaction. After working through her transference issue, it is likely her attitude would come in line with the more typical reaction toward other bad guys,* though I did not continue the story that far. A considered opinion that is manifestly unfair given equality of circumstance certainly is hypocrisy but is it true of a subconscious protective mechanism?  Debatable, I suppose. Still, Celestia (at the end) is well aware of what was going on in Twi's head and I can't see a need for her to point it out as hypocrisy at that point: It just wouldn't be helpful in a situation that is well on its way to resolving itself. Earlier, it might have been appropriate but there wasn't much time for anyone to say so, though perhaps Rainbow Dash came the closest (in her own, inarticulate way) with her "harsh" comment. Hmn… thinking about it, the most likely to point it out would be Princess Luna, but as I went with the imperious side of her personality shown in the beginning of Luna Eclipsed, she would be more likely to point out how "soft" Twi had been on the other guys.

As for the rest of the ponies being more sympathetic toward the changelings, I can't help but consider the Mane Six's actions during their fight to reach Canterlot Tower and the Elements of Harmony. The first changeling to pop up in front of them gets a couple of fore hooves in the face with Twilight's full weight behind them. The freeze frames show most of the others just straight up bucking and punching the Wheatchecks out of the changelings.** In the aftermath, in the lower right corner of the screen, you can see a pretty accurate depiction of a couple of changelings in decerebrate posturing,*** which indicates immanent death from massive brain trauma. (I would love to know which animator put that in!) So, I think her friends would be more upset by the cold-bloodedness of Twilight's actions rather than by the results.

As for the changelings being fairly harmless, I just don't buy it. The stated danger from them (feeding off love) doesn't explain all the other aggressive actions they took in the show. They certainly weren't going to feed off of the love of ponies they forcefully attacked, chased, trapped, and sealed into cocoons.**** If love was all they needed, and the feeding wouldn't harm their "hosts", why impersonate a pony's loved one? Why not take on the shape of extraordinarily attractive ponies and enter into a straight-forward relationship? I'd also like to point out that the changelings had carnivore's teeth: They wouldn't need those if all they devoured was emotion. And it does seem that the feeding drains a unicorn's magical strength, at least in the case of Crysalis and Shining Armor.

Anyway, I really enjoy the points you've brought up and the alternative viewpoint it has made me consider. This may seem strange, but the one thing our discussion has definitely made me wish I had done differently would be to remove the non-sentient assumption about the changeling swarm. It makes things too easy on several levels. Okay, also a definite reason WHY Twi wasn't taken to task more strongly than she was.

I'm not planning on any more fics anytime soon, but I do have an outline for one and if I do get some time to write again, could I ask you to look it over before I post it? I'm sure you would give me terrific feedback.

iisaw

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* Especially as she has effectively neutralized the changeling threat at that point. (I swear, taken as portrayed in the show, Equestria has to be one of the most nightmarish places to live imaginable. Monsters, predators, and malign magics seem to be so common as to be hardly remarkable.)

** Pinkie Pie and Fluttershy excepted for obvious reasons: Fluttershy hitting anyone with intent to cause harm is nearly unimaginable, and Pinkie Pie… well, who knows what was going through her head or what damage a Party Cannon would do at point-blank range?

*** Also variously called extensor posturing or decerebrate rigidity.

**** I just can't imagine any way that THAT was going to end well.

>>14488081448808

I suppose I need to concede on the hypocrisy issue; it would be, at best, tactless for Cele point out just then, and I never saw Luna as being one to have done such a thing during their talk, anyway.

Concerning Canterlot, I always assumed many Changelings were killed, if not during the attack (including the battle with Twi and Friends), then from Shining's spell--just look at the scene when the shield breaks to the scene with the Changelings being flung away: noticeably less, no? All the same, however, I believe any deaths cause by the six Bearers were accidental and very "in the heat of the moment," similar to Twi's reaction in the beginning of this fic. To me, then, it seems it could go higher or lower on the sliding scale of dismay as to how much killing any more Changelings would affect them (though on either side, it would still vary--obviously with Fluttershy a bit higher; Applejack and maybe Rarity a bit less). This is obviously a fic that lists on the lower side of the scale, but that wouldn't necessarily be the case because now they're outside that reactionary mindset (except Twi) and could analyze the morality and ethics concerning Changelings for themselves.

Well, the implications of the cocoons and attack on Canterlot depends entirely on lore that was never touched on in this fic. I know many like the idea of "conversion," and some others put them in a stasis where Changelings can feed off the love in their dreams, and in any case, only Cele was shown in a cocoon (though there were a few guards bound up in slimy, bio-looking ropes)... again, you didn't touch upon such things in your fic, so it's kind of hard for me to counter here! Concerning impersonations, it's not established in canon or this fic whether Changelings can take on unique shapes, but even if they could, we (again) have no canon or fanon in this story that details how long a Changeling can go without love--it could take too long and a Changeling would die of starvation before any emotional love (beyond physical and/or hormonal love) could be "cultivated"... though that depends on the lore of "what kinds of love can a Changeling feed on?"

As for the fangs, they're existence doesn't necessarily mean they are used. Evolution (if the beings in Equestria evolve...) is a messy process that tends to "leave junk behind," so the fangs could be vestigial. Go down that route, they likely have vestigial organs... but yet still this is a lot of lore stuff that's difficult for me to talk about since this is your interpretation, but it's never mentioned in the fic.

The effects on Shining could be an effect of long-term feeding, but that doesn't mean it is. It could be the/one of the likely many spell(s) she used to subdue him, or a side effect of such. After all, even after gaining control of Shining so thoroughly, she still couldn't force him to remove the shield--the Changelings outside still had to do that themselves with force. Therefore, it would seem to be (though not necessarily the case) that she had to actually work to get Shining into such a weakened state, and she was some ways from getting the barrier down herself. If it was an effect of the feeding beyond her control, she would have timed it so that her Changelings wouldn't have to wear themselves out (how ever little they did) breaking the barrier--instead having full strength and the advantage of not being in plain sight when beginning the attack.

Anyway, about looking at this other fic... that depends on the length and timing of when you want me to look at it. I have my own projects to consider, of which I already really want to get to town on, and the sooner and more time I get to pour into it, the better. If/when you do get it done, though, toss me a line, and I'll see about it.