Sunset and Celestia have a conversation.
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- Member Since 2nd Jun, 2012
- offline last seen April 12th
Between Lines
A purveyor of intelligent literary commentary some of the time, and whatever I feel like the rest of the time.
Between Lines
Joined 2nd Jun, 2012 ·
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Interesting take on the differences between Celestia and Twilight (detailed planning/entrenched habits) and Sunset (improvisation/rashness)
And of course, the heartwarming parts are always nice!
Aw, that was really sweet and heartwarming, great job. And nice comparison between Twilight and Sunset (and Celestia). To Sunset, Twilight really would seem like the "perfect" one, the student who listened to Celestia and succeeded, ascending to princess. Yet Sunset still has plenty strengths of her own (just as Twilight is far from perfect), Sunset just let it go to her head too much, and Celestia didn't see it in time (a recurring flaw with her as your fic said).
Also, I just want to say that I love that Spike was mentioned as being a key part of Twilight's character growth. The show rarely pays much attention to how much of a role Spike played in keeping Twilight stable and sane.
Great job, as usual. I especially liked your explanation of the Celestia vs. Chrysalis fight.
Those ponies under Nightmare wer possesed by other nightmares. It's so simple. Taking someones body is always the worst evil there could be, because they must watch as the world around them dies.
Twilight is not Sunset's replacement to to Celestia, Twilight is Twilight and Sunset is Sunset. Neither can substitute for the other. With Twilight her title as "Princess of Friendship" pretty much spells out that she shines brightest with others backing her. Twilight needs others, especially Spike to keep grounded and flexible. Similarly Sunset needs others to be less rash and think though consequences.
7100599
I disagree, I don't think it was mind control as much as it was adaptation to the situation. People(or ponies here) try to make the best of a situation for themselves. Rainbow is the most aggressive of the mane 6 and Rarity is the most self interested, things that in Nightmare Moon's Equestria are encouraged and rewarded, as a result Rainbow gets more aggressive if not violent and Rarity becomes more haughty and cold.
To be honest I always saw Twilight as a glorified pawn if celestia tells her to jump she'll say how high if she tells twilight to get her some banana cake she'll buy a whole dammed bakery. Twilight to me seem like someone that has to have someone/thing give her instructions to function otherwise she's helpless.
"Noisy", not "noisome" -- unless Sunset used to think that the Canterlot gardens stank!
I'm tempted to rant about the "it's all been one year" brainbug, but I'm gonna cut that off right here, and instead concentrate on the good stuff! Namely, I really liked how you contrasted Twilight's -- and by extension, Celestia's -- nature as obsessive planners with Sunset's adeptness at adapting, and the explanation for Celestia's actions with Chrysalis in Canterlot Wedding. The idea that she was outdone because Chrysalis went with something so blatantly stupid that Celestia hadn't bothered to come up with a contingency for it, and couldn't adapt quickly enough, is a fun and pretty plausible one.
Smashed it, GF.
You get a favorite.
There's an odd double standard that pops up in fics like these, and this one illustrates it particularly clearly. According to this fic, Luna did nothing wrong, but Twilight is certifiably insane. Presumably, then, the one deserves to be built up, the other torn down. I get that it's a reaction to the show's boosterism of its main character, but I'm still quite tired of it.
This wasn't half bad, though the one problem I have here is when Sunset and Celestia were discussing the Nightmare Moon ruled future and saying that the ponies there were just grumpy. Hello? I'd say it was more then that. As much as I love Luna, seems like you were looking past Nightmare's actions there a bit. Just saying, sorry if I had rant there a bit.
Ah, Villain Virtues.
7100794 A tool that is to be used to utmost and then thrown away like who knows how many that came before
What do you do when you're up against world-class athletes? Cheat!
7100814 Vocabulary for the win it seems.
I'll fix that. Though I suppose if anywhere would have those exotic 'rotting meat' flowers, Canterlot Gardens would.
Honestly, I HATED the "it's been one year" development that they dropped after Twilight's ascension, but Word of God confirmed it. I actually made a huge post a while back about how absurd the whole concept was considering the show had two separate cycles of winter episodes... but Word of God is Word of God. Twilight's time from Ponyville to Ascension was one year, as absurd as that is.
7100862 I know that feeling. My very first fic on this site was written because I disliked how the majority of stories handled HiE. Still, I'm not sure it's a double standard, because Luna is acknowledged to have seen the error of her ways, while Twilight's volatility has gone largely unaddressed. A lot of this has to do with how their characters have been handled in the show. Luna's main character conflict is her own guilt contrasted with her redemption, and it drives a lot of her stories. If she didn't feel guilty, or if others denied her redemption, she'd lose that driving conflict and stall as a character. Likewise, if Twilight's over-reactivity were cured, it would remove one of her more compelling aspects and make her a dull mary sue. There's a reason Lesson Zero is one of the most talked about episodes even today, because it did so much to make Twilight flawed and therefore interesting. Still, I'm curious to hear how you'd prefer to see the topic handled in the future.
7100872 It was 'simplified' for space, I'll grant. Still, as far as villain takovers go, NMM's did seem fairly livable. Honestly, in many ways it was one of the better futures, as at least ponies had lives and jobs, something that can't be said for some of the futures Twilight found.
7100919 Have some fitting music.
7100982 To be fair, you do have a point there. But still, it did seem to me you were ignoring the fact that said future was being controlled by Nightmare Moon.
7100982
They did? Man, I'm going to studiously ignore it.
I love stories like this. Sunset just having a conversation about the past and how everything just sort of screwed itself over due to various factors regarding personality flaws and or poor judgement. It highlights so much character about the cast. And it makes the story so appealing b/c the author understands that everyone has had these problems in one form or another in our lives making extremely relatable. Celestia admitting to not being able to adapt and prone to foolishness regarding the Chysalis situation is gold. Plus massive point bonus for giving Spike credit where credit is due. And it's true we see the heroes and the important people and look past and never realize or like to admit that they would be nothing and probably wouldn't have gotten to where they are today if it wasn't for the assistants or supportive friends. I also feel that those same heroes sometimes forget that too. Anyway nice story easilly in my top five regarding stories written round this subject.
Sorry for the rant.
A true slice of life, and a great interaction between Sunset and Tia. Great job!
As I've said before and I'll say until the end of time, Sunset would've made a better Princess of friendship than Twilight.
You probably won't be able to understand what I am about to write. Heck, if it was somebody else writing it, than I wouldn't be able to understand it, and I know from experience how nasty that can become if it gets out of hand. Bottom line is, I won't hold it against you if you misunderstand what I am trying to say.
To put it bluntly, I did not like this story. And yet, I found myself agreeing with you on several points, particularly in regards to how Celestia believed that Luna's resentment was justified to a point, and how Nightmare Moon's reign of Eternal Night was ultimately successful, if not exactly pleasant, in spite of the countless ways it could have gone wrong. And yet, I still found that I disliked it, which confused me greatly. After sitting back and thinking about it for a minute, I figured out the reasons why I disliked it, but explaining them in detail would require more time than I'm willing to spend on a commentary that I changed my mind about not writing on a mere whim. In the end, I have come to the conclusion that the heart of my problem is mere incompatibility. This story is, from my point of view, a purely intellectual work, and I can hardly call myself an intellectual by nature, which means it is uncommon for me to enjoy stories of that nature.
In the end, I simply have to acknowledge that this story is of good quality, and accept the fact that my dislike for any given piece of work does not guarantee that it is a failure, as much as that may bruise my ego.
Just like those miserable Psalms... they're so depressing...
What?! I see this yesterday when it has 2 views and now it's featured?!
But seriously, good job.
I liked most of this, though I can't really agree with Celestia's description of how she taught Sunset. I wouldn't call telling your student you can't ascend her to godhood on command "holding her back," nor would I apply that label to getting mad at her for reading the Necronomicon. Celestia certainly has an issue with sudden deviations from her plans, but that felt like shouldering blame that wasn't hers to bear.
Aside from that, an excellent character interaction piece. Thank you for it.
7101163
At this point, that may be true. But she only made it to this point because Twilight kicked her ass and gave her some friends to teach her. Twilight may have basically stumbled into her friendships, but Sunset had the same friendships handed to her.
That said Twilight does still show some difficulty interacting with people that can't handle the rigid, academic approach to life's problems. Honestly if they ever directly said she was on the autistic spectrum it wouldn't surprise me. Obviously very high-functioning, but still.
I really don't like the excuse to the Chrysallis saga...
This is really great characterization for Sunset, but more specifically, for Celestia. She is a very tricky character to try and understand, but the writing here does it amazingly.
This sort of idea is a fic I've wanted to see for a long time. Just a short visit from Sunset. Thanks for writing this.
Great Job!
7101206 I believe I get what you're saying, I myself have had stories that I respect in spite of not particularly enjoying them. Still, I think you for the praise, it means a lot coming from somewhere outside of just pure enjoyment.
7101830 I feel like the changeling saga is always going to require a dodgy explanation outside of the AU genre. The imposter plot is a tough one to sell an audience on with short notice, and the Celestia takedown was handled sloppily no doubt. But we do what we can with what we've got. Still, I'm curious, are there any approaches you thought handled it well?
7101022 Well, I guess that goes straight to a debate of "what is evil?" Is Nightmare Moon evil because she engages in evil acts, or because she acts on evil intents? Can saving a kitten be evil if one does it from evil intent, or is the act judged independent of personal context?
7101683 I had a similar discussion on a Luna story I did, and it comes down to my interpretation that whether or not Celestia handled the situation badly, she would consider herself to have handled it badly.
7101376 Is this a Project Horizons reference?
7102063
I thought it was a Monty Python reference...
[youtube=VZ42IMu7HIQ]
7102090
Also a Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons reference!
Meet Psalm the pony.
pre12.deviantart.net/1fc7/th/pre/f/2015/355/d/4/_foe_ph__psalm_by_bogdan97-d9kzpdb.png
The pony in question was, ironically, super depressing
7101376
Yes, yes - they certainly are. Would you...
(Wait for it)
... like Psalm Ore?
Ok, can I get more of this Celestia please? Seriously, next to maybe 3 to 4 other iterations out of literally THOUSANDS of Celestia depictions I've read since joining the Herd, this is THE BEST depiction of her I've seen, period!! A mare who understands her limits, one who understands her own flaws and has to grapple with them. A mare, for all her extraordinary talent and experience is not flawless, in fact the opposite. But the most important bit, one who is willing to expose her vulnerabilities, one who is willing to open up, to help and heal someone she loves!
This is the Celestia my heart believes rules Equestria, and one I'd love to meet and have tea with. Moreover, it is a mare like this that would, in my humble opinion, still be an excellent defender of her realm.
Wonderful fic, and your portrayal of Sunset rang very true too. Overall, 9.5 out of ten, pure excellence and the only thing that could bring it higher is more quality content. Beyond that, perfect one-shot material, ACE!
Best of luck, and thanks again for a great fic.
Depicting Celestia as an old, understanding, wise, yet flawed ruler, makes this story an instant success. The reader can easily follow along with little to no context and still understand the main point of the story. And the ability to write a one shot story like this has lifted this Author, and shoved him right into my following list.
10/10.
P.S. Needs more Alicorn.
That was... just really good.
Wow.
Just...wow
This Celestia is...awesome. A self admitted manipulator who knows her own limits? A Sunset who isn't painted as another "What Twilight Could have been?"
This is awesome. I want to see more of this. The characterization here is so strong and wonderful, it's practically perfect. The only downside to this is I wish there was more-I didn't even notice time was passing as I read it.
Definitely worthy of any favorites list, 9/10
I feel like the ending of Rainbow Rocks would make more sense about Sunset improvising. Still good fic.
Quite excellent.
This is brilliant... *doffs hat*
The idea of Sunset and Celestia meeting again has always fascinated me, and you pulled it off perfectly! Well done! Your point about Sunset's style being different than Twilight's and Celestia's hit the nail on the head. I never realized it before.
Yup. This is ten-worthy. *Puts in Display Case before I forget*
Honestly I could go into several reasons why I love this, but much of what I could say has already been said. This is a wonderful conversation, though I do wish Sunset had more input (if only so Celestia isn't dominating so much). Even so, it's wonderful. You kept things going toward Celestia's one truth, and it made the weight of it so much greater. Fantastic work.
That was a lovely read.
Celestia really likes her planning. She knew what to say.
But yeah, as she said herself, if something didn't go according to plan... it would have been quite funny to watch her stutter. Or sad.
I dunno.
But that ending was absolutely wonderful
I always figured Celestia had a plan for Sunset snd Twilight. As replacements for herself and Luna. They have ruled a long time and there tired. So Sunset the older as Celestia's replacement and Twilight as the younger to replace Luna when the time comes. A plan that went off track with Sunsets leaving for the human world.
This was just great.
(We got a nice bit of that right after the Tricross Relay).
Celestia´s perspective on things was quite surprising. I mean, that she blames herself for Nightmare Moon is nothing new, but that Celestia admits that when Sunset´s ambitions became dangerous, she should not just have relied on her authority alone was quite profound. And close to reality, I think. To real parent-children-problems that just exist because of this very thing.
And the next thing that made me really like this story was the comparison between Celestia´s and Twi´s permanent planning and over-thinking and Sunsets straight-forward never-go-down attitude I admire so much about her.
Even if Sunset is something like the new Element of Magic in the other world, even if she followed in Twi´s hoofsteps, she will still not be the same pony, alone because of her temprament
10/10 for a great, profound Slice of Live-Story and a funny headcanon about Chrysalis invasion^^
A great fic about Sunset taking Twilight off the pedestal she has placed her on, and some detailed analysis on how Spike has been so responsible for Twilight's successes. I always figured Celestia gave Spike to Twilight specifically to prevent her from turning out like Sunset Shimmer in the first place.
7100982 After the whole "only one year" thing, the S5 finale gave us new, more recent data, apparently NMM trapped Celestia in the moon "years ago," which makes it a lot less likely the first three seasons happened in under a year.
I have to disagree with the pleasantness of NMM's reign. Ponyville has been replaced by a bunch of dead trees and monsters Notice how the only living creatures we saw were NMM's direct employees living in the castle of the two sisters, and magical creatures like Timberwolves? No cities or villages seem to be left. Considering what would happen to food supplies in an eternal night situation, it looks to me like NMM is feeding and protecting her servants, and everyone else has died off. That's arguably worse than Chrysalis's timeline.
Great slice of life story.
7104668
Rarity didn't look all that surprised to see Twilight. So logically tour groups of the castles were a regular thing.
7103904
And Earth has pretty much adopted Sunset as its own.
7101683
This Celestia does have a problem with hindsight; mooning over a lost sister for 365,240 nights will do that.
I see this Sunset as adaptable. I also expect her to ascend to be the Alicorn Princess of Redemption when she writes the right spell.
Interesting concept and introspective. I think Sunset and Luna have a bit more in common than they think, since Luna seems a bit more of a mare of action of the two.
The one thing I have trouble with is the 'Celestia knew Chrysalis was there all along' part. I really don't like that because it makes it seem like she LET Shining suffer instead of ending it then and there when she realized Chrysalis was there. It makes her feel more apathetic rather than flawed.
Dismissing treason, rebellion and insurrection as character flaws Celestia is responsible for seeems a bit out of character. Ponies are responsible for their own actions, even if there are mitigating circumstances.