How far will one stallion run to escape what pursues him?
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5231444
And you honestly believe they are stupid enough to allow that to happen?
Dominance. You really don't understand how this works...
So, one griffoness fights back and a digit is bitten of.
Said griffoness is taken into a public place, beaten into submission in full public view, and then violently raped to death as a reminder that you don't fight back. The little ones, the ones most abused, are forced to watch the gruesome spectacle so they learn not to fight back.
Over time, the little ones, the ones most subject to abuse, learn to take it and do so willingly. Being allowed to live is better than being raped to death, having a wing ripped off, or potentially eaten.
Dominance comes when the submissive ceases to fight back because you've broken them. Slavery is an ugly goddamn thing.
5231453
I got that.
And I was pointing out that Gilda, being of the hunter caste, probably has a very different attitude about sex.
Go back to the mid 100s and read about Lugus describing his homeland and how marriage and breeding works. I think it might clear up some of your confusion.
Beware of ytops
Should be: Beware of typos.
5231481
5231461 i am not talking about modern terms dude, i obviously wasn't. talking about in an older time, where they were either wild or simply primitive, where they would not have medical treatments that could save them from infection or aid them if they lost a digit.
You new to un-italicize "The Albatross" in Sentinel's journal entry.
5231493
How is that relevant now?
It might have somewhat true at one point, but it ceased being relevant a long time ago and has no bearing on modern griffon society.
Their social evolution took a different course and that is why there is a very servile caste of little griffons that are so broken that they can't function without some sense of ownership and a 'master' to provide for them and protect them from those who would do them harm.
5231497
Hmm, maybe.
I must say, I really enjoy these little snippets from Sentinel, but this chapter... I want to know what was said between Spike and Twilight.
...I guess that's Chapter 319, huh?
5231529
Some of what was said will be revealed.
The rest will be shown in later chapters.
and so another part of the plan is revealed... Bucky is an evil master mind with a grand scale plan... he plans to create a new nation within equestria to replace the old i think. not just add it to it, but change equestria to his vision of a future
5231540
Not exactly. He plans to leave behind a lasting defence of Equestria.
5231570
integrating gryphons to equestria
industrialize equestria
moving lunar pegasuss to the "front" as a "normal" part of equestria
this are not small changes, that is flipping equestria to a new age, buckys age
5231594
Equestria is industrialised. See Baltimare, Manehatten, Vanhoover, Las Pegasus, etc.
Bucky, specifically wants mechanised transportation and a number of technologies to make the lives of earth ponies and pegasi a little easier.
5231498 myths and taboos exist from misconception. such small thigns causing mutilation to such larger things would create such a thing.
5231608
And then the larger griffons at some point decided to take the route of tyranny. While I understand you're saying there'd be precedent in the past, modern environments change the situation drastically. When the larger griffons realized they could simply brutalize the smaller ones, they were able to leverage the advantage from a few cases to impact all other cases. The same thing has happened in human societies before, resulting in populations being unable or unwilling to think for themselves. It's too likely to be trouble.
5231654
Eventually, whole generations are born that just accept that things are the way they are and try to make due.
Institutional slavery... how does it work?
Thanks for the input.
In the last paragraph, I think there's a typo or the sentence got jumbled after mentioning Lugus.
5231681
Explain, everything looks fine to me.
Need something a bit more specific.
5231654 when a predator is brutalized by larger predators, they leave.
5231698
Wow, slaves could have just freed themselves! Why didn't they think of that!
5231698
You are assuming they would be allowed to leave. You are basing your argument on instinctual animal behavior, this is not the correct frame of reference. Instead, look at it from the standpoint of human civilization. Yes, we have instincts like the so-called 'lower animals'. Our, for lack of a better term, sentience overrides this quite often. Sure, the individual could just up and leave, but what will happen to their family and friends?
Morals, and caring for others beyond the flock/troop/pack needs is what sets higher animals from lower animals (among other things... different discussion). The individual chooses to stay in an effort to protect others because it cares, though instinct screams to do otherwise. This is what leads to institutional slavery and/or a caste system (which is what we see in the gryphons, backed by biological difference).
Oh, and there is a term for high animals that let instict guide them, with no reference to then needs of others beyond the individual... a psychopath.
5231705 left before they became slaves I mean. it would be instinct for predator to vacate the premises of a stronger predator.
I am not talking in the present tense with this. I haven't from the beginning.
there are definitely two minds going on here. half sociological things, half predatorial tendencies. where does the society start and the predators end? ultimately what of human psychology should be included and what differences would a different species have in psychology?
5231686
I'll use the excuse that it's too early for me to be thinking if I'm wrong but I believe you mean Lugus has never done this in the open rather than is the open.
5231778
I see it now. Fixed. Thanks!
5231768 They are the same race, the little griffons and the big griffons, they aren't different predators. Besides, it's been pretty much said that those instincts have been bred out of them through risk of being impaled.
Two times 'designed'. Intentional?
Thanks for dedicating an entire chapter to Sentinel.
I think he will learn to see such things as the connection between lunar pegasi and griffons in time, but being Senty, he beats himself up more than he should at the moment. He's young, he lived on the isles and had a, let's say improvable education compared to Equestrian foals until Bucky came. He's already discovering the world and community by his writing and his articles and has made clever points. I have faith in our little squire.
5231766 kinda made a statement there. to what extent would they behave like a human, and in what ways would their behavior be different? how do you balance something between being sapient like a human yet not being a human, having a different origin to our race with different struggles to encounter.
5231837 a stronger lion pride will chase out a weaker one. they do not want to kill the others lions, they just want their territory.
Bucky is leaving some big horseshoes for Sentinel to fill.
Messy, messy. Mama Alicorn and child dragon.
5231849
Yes, I did assert a statement there. :) The problem you've identified is one that has been going on since the early days of speculative fiction. The problem we, as authors and readers, have is that we are the only (perceived 'sentient' species on the planet. We can only draw from our own experiences, history, and biology. We even see this in the canon of the show. The culture there is very much American culture with a splsh of Commonwealth, and extremely minor equine behavior based changes.
All of the species in this world follow a more-or-less human mentality. The moralities of the various species vary as much as it does between the various human cultures. They are, for the most part, humans in furry outfits. The differentiation is that Kudzu is giving them biological reasons for these differences: the size disparity between the different gryphon types, the focus on intelligence in unicorns making them less physical in their interactions, and so forth.
Taking this as a base, we can then pull in a bit more humanity (value of others for more than group utility) and some instinctual (small birds tend to flock together to protect themselves from larger aerial predators), and we start to see the behavior of the small gryphons. They move as a unit, rarely will one stand out... and when they do it is to take the focus on themselves rather than the rest.
Now, all species are inherently lazy... why expend energy if you don't need to? The hunter gryphons started the relationship with a fairly even trade: meat and protection for farming and other needs. The larger gryphons then figured out that they could keep the meat and still get everything else, and not have to expend the energy, by simply using terror to control the smaller gryphons. If the smaller act up, decimate the group (in the Roman sense, kill one in ten as violently as an 'example'). Use the sense of flock and societal bonds against them
tl/dr: I appreciate your point about non-human races being alien to our experience. For me, as I pointed out in a fairly long-winded way above, we need to remember that the show (and thus the author to an extent) has made the various species humans in funny suits. These species, therefore, cannot be too far off of human behavior without feeling out of character.
5231766 think I also mean of how these instincts would evolve into the society too. we humans are extrememly weak creatures when we get down to the nitty, gritty. we are fearful and thus we are destructive. everything is stronger than us physically. our tools have not remove our fears.
the grpyhons are not so much. they are predators, their only fears being the injury they receive from their prey and of other predators. they would be violent and such in their own way, but they would not evolve with a constant sense of fear in their hearts.
the ponies are way more fearful than the gryphons, they did come from what was once a prey species. however their struggles were almost solely because of predators rather than competition with the land. their abilities allowed them to defend themselves against predators overall and they found their strength with each other. being herbivores their destructiveness would also be lesser for it, still prone to aggression but having no benefit if they kill and enemy. and their ability to manipulate their environment allowed them to produce and thrive wherever they went.
both species has fear and aggression, but unlike humans neither species evolved with constant fear and strife. ponies had each other, the gryphons were predators, and they had these attributes long before tools. humans completely rely upon tools, and we are fearful because of it.
5231766 though to give the credit do, I think the capturing of such a corrupt and dying state was really good overall. simply ponder what other reactions could come from these ideas or how much is simply human behavior given to the gryphons.
5231964
Ah, but remember the description of the smaller gryphons... sparrow mixed with housecat. They are, at best, a middle predator. They are both predator and prey... and were living in close proximity to an apex predator that, at one time, were their protectors. The protectors slowly changed to predators, and thus the smaller gryphons became prey in totality.
5232014 like I said, credit where it is do........ though lesser predators are rarely used as prey.
a predator kills for two reasons. they kill to drive off or eliminate rivals and they kill to eat............ now that I think about it it is those who are omnivores that more often kill and eat and commit cannibalism. least amongst the mammals. a bear will kill an eat a rival cub. chimps are known for that too.
why does it seem that it is the omnivores that do the more fucked up stuff? and I am talking about more active rather than times of desperation going on here. desperate or not, a chimp and bear will kill and eat the young rivals.
5232063
NEVER SPEND A LOT OF TIME STUDYING HYENAS.
I actually based some griffon behaviours on hyena pack psychology.
Nature's psychopaths.
5232076
I'm gonna second that. Hyenas are weird and gross.
5232079
Hyena cubs eat other hyena cubs to become stronger. They eat their fucking siblings to gain strength.
And Hyenas love to eat each other. Occasionally, for seemingly no reason at all, they will just pounce on a weaker member of the pack and start eating them.
Fucking weirdo felids. Hyenas are cats just gone fucking wrong.
5232063
One other question that may affect both of our arguments is, when did the shift from hunter-as-protector to hunter-as-predator occur compared to the industrial poisoning of the hunter gryphons? Let's face it, that poisoning was the equivilant of rabies, and that sends mentalities entirely out of whack!
5232124
The hunter caste is the most common caste of griffons. Medium sized. Gilda for example. Slighter larger than most ponies.
Tannis and Agnetha are both hunters. (BTW, Agnetha is the Scandinavian version of Agnes)
Fun fact... even with smaller skulls, it is the servant griffons who are actually the most intelligent of the three castes. Sure, there can be really smart hunters and warriors, but on average, the servant caste is the smartest, based upon the ultra efficient brains of corvids.
5232146
Ah, so we have warrior, hunter, and servant castes... yes? (Largest to smallest.)
5232154
Yes. There are some variations in sizes.
Hunters are the most common, followed by servants, with warriors being the smallest in number.
Being born a warrior gives you a life of privilege.
5232076 tries to figure out the behavior of bird cats.
uses something tangentally related to cats.......
5232161
I studied big cats, scavengers, predators, apex predators, and hyenas.
After reading for almost a week about hyenas, I was forced to admit that there might be another species on earth as fucked up as human beings, AND THEY ARE FUCKING HYENAS!
Incestuous cannibal sickos.
5232161
Also, I wanted insane cats, like cats with mercury poisoning, and hyenas fit the bill.
Just thought of this the other day, when Bucky married Lyra/Bonbon his condition was that they provide him a foal, does Harper count?
5232178
More on this later. Unresolved Lyra arc.
5232184 OK :P
5230916
VERY INTERESTING.