Reset Password
Resend Verification Email
7
14
61
Joined February 2012
Groups
-
59w, 3dThe Conversion Bureau
-
49w, 3dPonies in the Real World
-
52w, 2dAlternative Conversion Bureau
-
50w, 1dHumans Aren't Bastards
132
4,424
The click and buzz of a television turning on filled the otherwise quiet evening.
“… with Sunni and Shiite groups coming together on some key issues of the Republic of Iran’s new constitution.” The newscaster turned to her co-host, a bright and entirely fake smile on her face. “A bit of a bright spot for the Middle East, eh Eric?”
“That’s right Kathy. Speaking of things ‘bright and cheery,’ you ever wonder what happened to those ponies? Well, John Cammeron is here to give us an update in this special report. John?” The feed switches focus to a man seated just out of shot to their right. He, too, wears that ever-fake smile.
“Thank you Eric. Kathy.” He turns to the camera, his face suddenly serious. “Ponies. Two years ago and that word would have brought to mind images of majestic stallions running across the now-lost plains of the Midwest or, perhaps, little girl’s toys. But a year and a half ago, all that changed. In case you missed it, a new alien species stopped by to say ‘hello’ to humanity. But they’re not from space. These equines are from an alternate dimension.”
The feed cuts from the studio to stock footage, pegasi guards flanking the chariot of Princess Celestia and Luna as they touch down on the roof of the UN building in New York. The images are grainy and scratched. John’s voice continues over the footage as it passes. The UN General Secretary shaking Celestia’s hoof, unicorns demonstrating their magical abilities. Pegasi pushing clouds around or laying on them as human scientists run around, trying to understand the how of it all.
“An Earth where, they claim, the waters are pure and the air is clear. Requests to film or visit it have been routinely denied by the Nation of Equestria and all attempts at passing into Equestria have met with failure.”
A scene of a motorboat being chased by three pegasi as it rapidly approaches a strangely swirling vortex of some sort. The three pegasi suddenly break off as the boat passes some invisible wall. Three figures seem to be picked up and launched into the air backwards, their human limbs flailing. The pegasi circle around, coming in to snatch the invaders from the ocean waves. The feed changes, a green unicorn with a yellow mane sitting awkwardly in a chair made for humans.
“Human technology just doesn’t work in Equestria. Not right anyway.” A name plate popped up below her, declaring her to be ‘Sundrop Dewheart,’ Chief Technologist of the Nation of Equestria. “We don’t even know why. It should, everything seems to be the same. All the universal constants are there. But it, well, it just doesn’t. And human bodies, they react just as poorly to magic as the technology does.” A male voice, presumably the interviewers, cuts in.
“Do you have any theories as to why?”
The unicorn taps her hoof gently against her chin before shrugging. “It’s magic, ain’t gotta ‘splain manure.” The feed changes to the vortex again, this time as seen from the air. Surrounding it are several destroyers while a few aircraft carriers can be seen in the distance.
“So no humans in Equestria. And that's final, say the Princesses. But there is a way to visit the supposedly jolly land of candy-colored miniature horses. Become one yourself. In fact,” the feed changes again, showing a rundown building with the words ‘Conversion Bureau’ in neon lights above the door, though the lights are no longer lit, “until a few months ago, you could go to any mid to large sized city and apply to become an Equestrian citizen. And, by necessity, a pony yourself. According to statistics released by the Nation of Equestria, over two million human beings chose to do just that.” The feed cuts, showing a spinning ‘Action News’ logo.
“When we return.”
An elderly balding human, gesturing wildly with his hands as he speaks. “They took everyone who was going to be going. I can’t imagine what they were thinking.”
A spinning ‘Action News’ logo flashed onto screen, spinning an elderly balding man’s head into view.
“There’s only three real ‘Centers’ left in the world and two of those will be closing by the end of the week.” A name plate popped up below him, indicating he was Dr. Zimmerman of the newly created Harvard Business School’s Human-Equine relations board. “These ponies were really hoping that there would be a massive influx of humans wanting to be ‘ponified’ but it just never materialized.”
The feed cuts to a few scenes from outside various Conversion Centers, all of them still shots and showing only a few humans entering the massive double doors at the front. Zimmerman’s voice continued over the shots.
“They really underestimated both the draw of being a ‘pony’ and, well, how much we like being human. Other than the initial rush of some two million or so humans that were, ehh, ‘unsatisfied’ with being human, there weren’t many left to get.” The feed cuts back to him, gesturing wildly with his hands. “They took everyone who was going to be going. I can’t imagine what they were thinking.”
The feed cuts to a press meeting outside the UN building, with Princess Luna and Princess Celestia facing the camera. Princess Celestia began speaking, to the flashing of cameras and the whirring as robotic camera drones buzzed around her head.
“Any human wishing to apply for Equestrian Citizenship will, of course, still be able to do so. However, as the volume we expected wasn’t present, these processes will be done at any Equestrian Consulate.”
The feed cuts to a small line outside of one of the still operating Conversion Centers, now little more than a run-down building giving a 'free clinic' vibe. John's voice narrates over a mundane scene as humans enter the building slowly and cars zoom by, not even slowing down to wonder.
"At the cost of nearly seventeen billion dollars, over two thousand Conversion Centers were constructed in every country that allowed them. But even with the surprisingly large number of dissatisfied homo sapiens, that was still only barely a thousand per Conversion Center."
The feed changes to what appears to be a unicorn, though her dark ethereal mane and the extremely long horn on her head marked her instead for one of the Princess sisters.
"Verily We thought, oh excuse me." She clears her throat. "Yes, well, we thought it was a matter of course, you see? The magic field is expanding and with it's ... distaste for humans, we thought it would be best to get the majority converted right away. We, uhm, underestimated the love the majority of you have for you species."
The feed cuts to a young but bald human, his tee-shirt displaying a crossed out stylized alicorn.
“The Human Pride Front, of course, has no issue with anyone wishing to give up their humanity to become some horse. We just stand against the invasiveness of the original plan, that’s all.” John’s voice cuts in as the feed cuts to show protests outside of one of the larger Conversion Centers. A small column of empty space helps frame the smaller video of humans waving signs.
“The Human Pride Front points to the original ‘Welcome Speech’ developed by Twilight Sparkle, unicorn mage and student of Princess Celestia, one of the co-rulers of the Nation of Equestria, as evidence of this anti-human sentiment.” The text scrolled into view as John read it. “’Humans such as yourselves have brought your world to shambles, all because of the selfish greed of big business, and the horrible health habits of the majority of the population.’” The feed cuts again to police in riot gear shooting tear gas into the crowd of humans, holding shields to deflect the few rocks thrown. "'Ponykind faces overpopulation, in ways that the tiny land of Equestria simply can't keep together for long. That's why we moved into your towns and cities. Because humans can't handle the magic radiating from Equestrian borders, becoming a pony is crucial to expanding the peaceful, friendly aura that surrounds Equestria every day of every month of every year.'"
“Riots in many large cities caused several million dollars in damage after the full text of the speech was released to the public." The feed cut to John again. "The HPF claims that the changes made to the 'Welcome Speech' and the removal of Twilight Sparkle as Chief 'Overmare' of all Conversion Centers due to, as Equestria claims, 'stress related work injuries' were only covering tactics and the true source of this anti-human sentiment still exists in the form of the Princess sisters, as evidenced by the closed borders of Equestria and the fact that no study done by human or unicorn has ever proven that humans cannot exist in the so-called 'magic field.'"
The feed cut to the small fleet of warships that still sat near and, in some cases, right next to the vortex of energy that was the portal to Equestria. "However, Equestria claims that they are only protecting humanity from what could be an extensive health risk." The feed cuts from the warships stationed outside Equestria to a mint green unicorn with a mint green and white mane sitting in a very human-like manner in an expensive-looking English manor style room.
"The fact is, there are many ponies who would love to see humans in Equestria." The name plate that appears proclaims her as Lyra Heartstrings, noted pony musician and leader of the 'Ponies for Humans' movement. "But until we know more about what magic DOES to humanity, we just can't afford to take that risk." The camera view changes, zooming in to her face. She appears wistful. "I know I'd love to see humans in Equestria."
The camera switches over to another Conversion Center, this one sporting shattered windows and scrawled pro-human graffiti. John's voice narrates. "And yet the essential question remains. Is it humanities fate to go the way of so many species? To follow dinosaurs, dodos and Siberian tigers into the abyss of history?" The camera returns to the newsroom, showing John's 'serious face.'
"With still close to eight billion humans on the planet and that number still rising, it's the opinion of this reporter that we're still very much here to stay." The camera pans out to show Eric and Kathy, listening with 'rapt attention.'
"Well, I don't know about you but this is one reporter that's not giving up her thumbs." Kathy's remark brought semi-forced laughed from the two reporters with her.
"Yes, how would I manage to catch a football?" Eric looked at the camera with a smile as he continued his segue into the next portion of the news program. "Speaking of sports, Jim's here with the latest NFL scores and stats. Stay tun-"
A click and a snap as the static electricity discharge sent the night back to the blissful silence it had been.
Authors Note:Well, this is embarrassing. I read the TCB post over on EqD and saw the post here and, well, I just couldn't help myself. I mean, really? If something like that actually happened, I seriously doubt anyone but a few of the more ... colorful members of our community and maybe a few furries would take that plunge. A nice fantasy but the world that I was told about really didn't make much sense. Then again, I read maybe the first few chapters of the original, the first story of the Yellowstone series and a few odds and ends of other series so maybe there was more going on than I thought. But as it stands now, from what I remember, the entire concept was ludicrous. Take present day, add working nanotechnology, fusion and get pretty damned close to a post-scarcity society. Then, add 'ponies why not' and every gives it up for ... what? In the hopes of being a pretty, pretty pink princess pony? I just don't understand it.
Also, I used the canonical 'Welcome Speech' from Blaze's original 'Conversion Bureau' story, even as misanthropic as it was. Terribly sorry, Mr. Blaze but your version is still the best to stir some ... manure up.
Comments ( 132 )
Post Comment
Refresh
A nicely done "What if" scenario.
No glaring errors, and it seems to work quite nicely. You've implemented a very vicious and quite plausible "plot killer" for the TCB-verse. (The plot has been brought to a crashing halt before it even really began)
It's a little rough, I think, but this is a little gem I'm glad I took the time to look at and read.
Another group that would become ponies is those dying of something, and the process can cure them.
Like let's say, you've got a human dying of terminal cancer... and the process will give them a healthy pony body.
Of course they're gonna jump at the chance now.
Now me, would I do it then.....
If I was healthy, no.
If I was dying of something, yes.
Of course I would still choose to live here.
No way am I giving up technology, I love technology dude.^_^
This is hilarious! 
I'm sorry though, it comes off as the Fox News version and narrated by Limbaugh - there're no reports of murders of ponies or ponified humans, issues such as the inaccessibility of Equestria are swept under the rug, there's still no talk about the millions of uninsured or working poor, and there's a lot of assumption about lack of evidence such as that provided by simple chemistry. It blatantly ignores every other country than america as well as playing little room to equestrian immigration to Earth.
Good stuff though, for a short.
Lately I had a little discussion about the TCB universe, and this one-shot reflects some of my sentiments.
The typical TCB story portrays Earth as a dystopian and dying world, and that was before the Equestria's emergence. After that Earth and humankind was certified to be doomed because of a force known as thaumatic entropy. The entropy was interminably converting the entire planet into the pastel paradise of Equestria. Humans and their technology was incompatible with Equestrian magic and realm itself, so the human race is pretty much hosed regardless the resistance they put up. Quite sad really, because most TCB fics imply that pretty much anything more advanced and complicated than a book would be destroyed by the ever-spreading Earth-consuming magic. Of course, one can safely declare that firearms and bombs deserve to be eradicated, but what about the beautiful and remarkable things? Imagine a wall of magic indifferent to what it converts advancining on the National Air and Space Museum. I'm sure the complete destruction of all the carefully preserved technolgical marvels would leave a lot of folks bitter. Some TCB stories are fortunately less harsh, showing that the magic's effect on technology simply renders them inoperable. It wouldn't then be a too difficult of a task to reengineer the device to work in Equestria. Anyhow, the stories that aren't lenient has any human-made device turn into confetti and leaves upon insertion to the Equestrian realm. I suppose I don't have to tell how sad that is, especially if you're a caretaker of a museum.
However, I think I have found a little loophole in the TCB universe. In most stories physical examples of technology cannot be brought to Equstria. The interesting loophole is that one can bring a written work -- or simply possess the drive and necessary knowhow -- on how to construct a technologically advanced contraption. Within a short time, a pony would commence with building a device of human origin from the materials avaliable in Equestria. Now make that not one pony, but a few million, and you can bet Equestria will enter an age of industrial revolution within a few years.
A decade or two and Equestria would have their own adaptations of automobiles, airplanes and who knows what else.
Yeah, this might be a plausible scenario in America, where most everyone has a not-horrible life, but in poorer countries, I'd think there would be more people willing to leave their life behind, at least if they could retain their families.
But that just makes the alicorns into manipulative opportunists, taking advantage of human poverty to enlarge their nation.
You echo some of my sentiments. I hope that my story would discuss some of these points, because there are certainly things that I would preserve.
Personally, when it comes to technology, I don't think everything would be outright destroyed provided the plans were preserved. And not to get too political, but I think the technology that would be perserved would be more in the information and entertainment production areas than the manufacturing areas, because you'd start getting into problems of making Ponies redundant if you go too far down that line.
In the realm of vehicles. I think that the only vehicles they'd adopt would be mass-transit. So aircraft, ships, and trains. I mean we are dealing with horse derivatives here, animals we've relied upon so much to travel great distances and drive our machines we still use the name to measure mechanical work done in respects to vehicles at least.
Now this is a CB story I can stand behind. I can't get myself to read past the first chapter of most of them since they have that "humans are irredeemable bastards" vibe, and cast everyone with a dissenting view of "ponyfication" as murdering extremists. Kudos for placing this in the real world, instead of that paranoid corporate future fantasy setting, and showing an actual, civilized debate (albeit one reduced to newsbytes). I look forward to the day when somebody writes a whole story around this particular interpretation.
I myself would never consent to conversion. Sure, humans have done horrible things, but there are just so much scientific, cultural, and artistic accomplishments we have to be proud of, and if the expansion of Equestria means we lose it forever, then I'd rather die, preferably in the Smithsonian while listening to recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas.
That's because in order to get to the point where Conversion would be seen as a legitimate option, humanity has to be on the brink. Otherwise there is nothing to drive the conflict. You'd just end up with a world parallel that could go to, maybe, if you really REALLY wanted to. Consider the threat some American Liberals made to move to Canada should GWB get re-elected (spoilers: only a few actually did move and it was for more than that)
Also the entire story is take on mankind's moral dualism. The same creature that could develop a weapon that could end nearly all complex life on Earth many times over are also the exact same people that could develop the cultural and scientific achievements that have allowed our population to expand and at least a good chunk of it to thrive beyond anyone's dream 100 years ago. Do you believe, if you read the stories where the Bureaus are mercy missions essentially, that the Alicorns would even bother if there wasn't something about humanity worth preserving.
It also raises I believe an EXTREMELY important philosophical question as we begin to develop more advanced prosthetic augmentations and genetic engineering. What exactly is a human being. If these were people being put into bionic or entirely mechanical shells (such as Ghost in the Shell) are they still people, or are they something... else.
It is something we will have to confront in the years ahead.
Author here to respond to some of the comments.
The slightly biased and American-centric view was intentional. This was a short one-off written in under 5 hours meant to simulate a quick news report, inspired by a sensationalist news report I happened to see on my way out of the office. With only a very short amount of time, 'special reports' tend to leave out a ton of facts and rely on emotional-driven attention grabbing lines. I thought about expanding a great deal in many directions but it would lose that ten-fifteen minute feel most special reports have on the news and that was, in essence, the one thing I couldn't lose for this to work out in any reasonable way.
The thought that more would opt for the change in poorer countries, I disagree. However, I won't go into them. As to murders of ponified humans, I didn't want to give it that dark a feel. This is also a bit of an homage to previous media attention bronies have garnered, so keep that in mind as well.
That assumes the process cures them somehow. That actually might be TBC canon, I can't remember and I'll be arsed if I'm going to read the whole story to find out. Still, I'll keep my asthma and my thumbs.
Thank you to all who read and commented.
I liked this. It felt like a pretty realistic depiction of, well, "what would really happen" if ponies were to come to present-day Earth to convert humans. Although I guess an important element of TCB is that it's set in a bleak future where characters often seem to get put out of work they've trained their whole lives for by AI technology and then get converted out of a sense of boredom and purposelessness. I've never been entirely sure conversion rates would be as high as they are in those stories, but I can believe that some people would be prepared to abandon their humanity – especially in a futuristic world full of genetic engineering and cybernetic implants – for a sense of purpose/meaning/belonging. And the poor/uneducated are sadly easy to manipulate.
I got a chuckle out of this story, thanks for that. I like to see different ideas like this explored in TCB stories, and I think the more dissenting, deconstructive authors join the fray, the better for everyone.
I've always hated CB stories. Not only is the idea weird, but to be honest, every CB story I've read is usually pretty bad. They all follow the same formulas and the majority just aren't well written. I suppose having a suspension of disbelief is a good thing, but i could never get around it with CB stories.
That said, I agree completely with your statement and I think this might be the best CB story I've ever read.
...
Yellowstone was alright it tried to do something a little different but even i gave up on it after a while.
In reality, this really would happen.
But if the ever-expanding field of magic really was harmful to humans, then, give or take a few years, more humans may or may not decide to convert.
As well as that, if magic DOES harm humans in some way, and is forcing humans to convert if they wish to live, wouldn't that situation lead to conflict between humans and ponies in a final (and likely futile) attempt by the humans to save all they know?
If it truly was harmful ... maybe. Some might blame the ponies for the situation but it's not exactly their fault. As it gets closer and closer to human nations and people become desperate, I can see that happening. The real question I have is, if magic is harmful to humanity and we must all convert to survive, sure. Ok. Doesn't make me any less an American. I hold no allegiance to the Princesses. Why would I convert and then drop everything to go live in candy-land? Can't I convert and live here? What makes it such that once you convert, you immediately become beholden to the pony's leaders and their way of life?
Interesting point you have there. I can see it now actually, United Kingdom of Ponies, United States of Amareica, and pretty much any other national names that you can cross with equines.
If that were the case then, wouldn't that be a bad thing for Equestria? I mean, now they're going to be stuck with several pony nations, and thats assuming the converted humans decide to maintain their alleigiance to whichever nation they were members of. This would be bad, because being the possesive creatures we are, we will do anything to gain more power, and we are willing to fight for it. In the long-term, this would likely lead to WW3.
Why would a human choose to Go Pony?
Well, let's consider.
The human world, today, is a brutal one for the majority of human beings, who live in abject poverty, suffering from countless easily prevented diseases. Most humans barely get enough to eat, and many starve to death. There are, at any given time, about one hundred wars going on, most fought by conscripted children under the age of 16. Some child soldiers are pre-pubescent. In much of the world, women are chattel, property, with little to no rights, multi-generational debt-slavery and blatant, open slavery are commonplace, and cruel regimes commit genocide and ethnic cleansing constantly.
Oh, you don't know about all of this? That's right, we're all on computers in the First World, aren't we? All fat and happy, sipping colas and enjoying our Ipads. But I assure you the vast majority of people on this planet don't have the luxury of sitting back and wondering about fictional ponies. They are too busy starving, fighting against their will, or serving as slaves.
What does Equestria offer?
No war. No hunger. No slavery. Equality between all genders and breeds. No genocide. No ethnic cleansing. Clean air. Clean water. Superior, magical medicine that can cure literally anything from regenerating a tooth to conquering a magical ailment. A truly benevolent government run not by fallible humans but by immortal goddesses that love every being they look after like doting mothers. A life of friendship, beauty, peace and endless fun, not to mention real, amazing magic.
Gosh, I can't imagine why the majority of mankind would give up child slavery and dying of disease, abuse and hunger for that! I guess you have a real point here. I can't imagine why I was so blind.
Yay, genocide! Go Mankind! Whooo-hooo!
I am being so flippant and snarky because it is inevitable that the person who cannot imagine the lure of being a pony in Equestria is always -always- an uninformed, privileged person who has never known real want, real need, or understood what real suffering even is.
We all suffer. But much of Mankind is lucky just not to starve on any given day.
It's easy to proclaim how wonderful the human world is when one is sitting fat in a comfy chair typing on an expensive keyboard in front of a huge monitor.
And you can tell just how privileged and ignorant you are if, at any point, you thought 'hey! my keyboard isn't that expensive' or 'My monitor is a small one!'
Starving child soldiers don't have either.
Wow, excellent. You really present a more fair and balanced view of things. And while Midnight and Chatoyance are being their usual misanthropic selves (I love you two), you actually presented all the problems with such a scenario in a short fic. Really, I love this mainly because it holds up hope and mutual understanding- Something most usual CB stories lack, which is completely against the pony universe.
So ignore Midnight and Chatoyance (I don't actually love you two). You really skewer the bad aspects, and there are a lot of them, of TCB universe. Congrats man, you just got my first favorite on the site.
Those are all valid points, but they are never brought up in any of the Conversion Bureau fics I have ever seen; and I've seen a lot. Seems convenient, no? They also never mention opening bureaus anywhere else than the US. The one exception that i saw was in your commemorative fic in the chapter located in space with all the "fads". Other than that, the Conversion Cureaus seem to stay in the general area of the US.
Anyway, this is a great story for debating. Just look at all these comments!
Yes I have. The one exception that i saw was in your commemorative fic in the chapter located in space with all the "fads." I just cant remember the name of that particular chapter, as it has been several weeks since then and I have been quite busy. I read plenty of your fics too, such as Code Majeste, The 800 year promise and several chapters of 27 Ounces.
I didn't mean specifically your stories, just the majority of the others make no mention of other countries that i have seen.
Just to provide facts, not taking a side (Though I side with you) it's Chapter 5. And to me, it has all the other cliches of the fandom, just set in a slightly different location with the wording changed around a bit.
As I said above, I don't care for them. That's an understatement, but I'm keeping things down low for today, partly to not come off as an obsessive lunatic on this subject (Which I admittedly am), and also out of a sense of restraint I'm putting on myself just for Chatoyance, for reasons we both know of. We've tried the whole debate thing before, it didn't work out for reasons I'd rather not say due to being prejudiced on the matter, and let's leave it at that.
i LOVED this little one shot. i was heavily dissapointed with TCB when i read it.
when i first heard about it i thought 'holy CRAP
it's an alternate timeline of Fallout, but with ponies'. you have to admit, the whole dystopian future sounds a lot like pre-great war America in the Fallout verse and that sounded AWESOME!
then it got into that whole 'our species is bad and we should feel bad' thing and i started seeing all the plot-holes and started hating it. i still read some of the side stories from time to time, but it's mostly to laugh at how silly the premise is.
you Good sir or madame get a hearty approval from me. Good job
NOONE IS ALLOWED TO OUT CYNICAL MEEEEE!!!!!!!!
Yes, I've never been in foster care with psychotic foster parents who think a good way of controlling children is to strap them into a high chair for hours on end.
I've never been in a homeless shelter thanking my lucky stars years later I was young enough to be in the 'woman's part. Screaming boy children are not something you ever need to hear.
I've never had to watch my mother work four jobs just to keep her three children fed and clothed.
I've never had to give up the twenty dollars I found one day so she could go buy food.
I've never been assaulted because I was one of only four white children in a black school.
I've never had to watch my wife slowly fade away because of her genetic disorder.
I've never had to avoid going home because my mother's girlfriend was high and ranting. Or my mother, depending on the time of day.
I've never had to keep my mother's sexuality a secret because otherwise, we'd be taken from her.
I've never had to lie or steal or fight for my free lunch card back.
I've never been on food stamps and family assistance and everything else under the sun and yet still had to watch as my possessions are pawned so we could make the electrical payment that week.
I've never had to watch my mother taken away because the psychiatrist prescribed the wrong anti-psychotic and actually caused a nervous break down that resulted in a few hundred dollars of property damage that, somehow, made it a criminal offense rather than a civil matter. And then she was in jail for three months because they 'lost her paperwork.'
Oh, wait. Yes I have. EDIT: I cursed here. I try not to do that as it rarely makes good feelings. But you upset me. You really upset me. I don't want to hear from you over this. I don't want to see you anymore. I need some time to calm down. I was going to browse the stories here before I went to bed but I think I should just turn in for the night. Don't know if I can sleep, I feel ill. But needs must as the devil drives and all. I have work tomorrow anyway. Good day, sir.
I did not mean to upset you so. Hear that. Not my wish.
But, I ask you, is it not beyond horror, that the misery and awfulness you describe -and it is beyond terrible and wrong- is still living high on the hog compared to the majority of the human population? And it is. You know it is, even as bad as you say.
I've seen crap too. Lots of shit. I've been down with no way up, out on the street, on my ass, and I've stared into the muzzle of a gun and literally shit myself. I've lived some scary ass shit in my 52 years, Minalkra. So don't think I don't understand.
But even I admit that, compared to Haiti, most of Africa, most of China, most of the Middle East, most of India, and a hell of a lot of the Pacific Rim, all the shit I've endured is still living the life of The Man, compared to starving in hardscrabble and being eaten by rats. That's a hard admission. To say that there is pain in this world bigger than my own. But I say it. I know it. A lot worse.
It's hell that this is so. But it is true.
I meant no disrespect, Minalkra. Not a bit.
But it is sooo easy for any of us, here where the computers and the fast food and the pony shows are, to forget that even when we live totally crap lives, we are still better off. That is one hell of a thing, isn't it? All our misery, and it still doesn't even touch what most of humanity suffers. Hard to admit. Hard to look at. Hard to deal with.
That said, I wasn't so much writing to you, as I was to all the people who can't get why escaping to a better world would not be attractive. I get so tired of the old thing that 'oh, humanity is so great and our stuff is so cool'. No. I don't exactly agree with that.
I did not mean to trivialize your experiences. I only meant to state the truth, for us both, you and me, and all the others here; that we still have it better than those suicidal people making our iPads and our Nikes and starving in the streets for no damn reason other than human greed.
So... let's not be all up in each other, OK? I bear you no malice here.
This seems to have turned into a personal issue.
Lets start with this: People are incapable of understanding their own advantages. We are hardwired to bypass that in order to continue exploiting our own advantages. Its psycology is all I am saying.
Secondly, you do not state the "truth". This world is made up for the most part of fools and decievers, both irreconcilable foes to truth, both of them having two sets of eyes to view the world in their own truths. What you offer is a viewpoint, you do not offer the "truth". To narrow this down to truths or lies is like trying to narrow down ethics to ''good' and ''evil''. It is Slave Morality. The real "truth" is something that only few people are allowed to have and it comes with heavy demands. I do not know the "truth", you do not know the "truth", most people on this site don't.
Thirdly, going back to your original post, why would a human choose to Go Pony? There is no need to answer that question, even through I have my answers, because such a thing is, in the end, pointless. Lets make this clear to some people, ponies are a neurotic and psycological projection, a wish full fillment of what we consider to be desirable and true happiness, what we think we lack and what we can change. It is a hypothetical object of comparison for us to mimic. In little words, it is what we think we want in life and for the whole of humanity. We have spent so much time being oppressed and berated and being slaves to morality and society and having to deal with inequality, that has made things such as freedom, equality and good will so valueable. And since we want them so much we encompise them into our works.
Don't take this the wrong way, I am not implying that what you said, or what anybody said here is wrong. There are facts and then there are opinions. The first leads to knowledge, the other leads to ignorance. The fact that people go around starving to death is one thing. It is horrible and it is disgusting, inhumane. The reason why they starve to death is much more complex then human greed. Human greed is simply the symptom. You have to look for the disease here.
Honestly Jennifer, I can say a lot of things about what you said, mostly about them being wrong as all fuck, but The Greek Dollmaker has summarized it well. You are trivializing the issue here, you're seeing things only in the simplest manner, i.e blaming them on human greed, without taking a big long look at the causes of such events. No one can claim to have never suffered. And there are places in the Mid. East and Asia that actually prosper, just like how we still can have immense suffering in the first world. It's all relative.
I can claim to have suffered greatly, and from a certain point of view, that would be true. But I know that there are still those who have suffered more, and for reasons far beyond simple 'human greed.' And while you can claim to say we're the misinformed ones here on our ideas that sacrificing our very minds and bodies to something else might not be as attractive as you would think, perhaps you're a tad biased yourself? Really, the last few comments on this thread went far too personal for me to feel safe about, as you proceeded to make some accusations without context or just cause and not actually answer the questions about the problems about TCB. That is where you fucked up, plain and simple.
The Conversion Bureau... disgusting to me. Beyond it, worse than Cupcakes itself.
I've been down, not as low as some but I've been pretty damned down. I've seen evil in the face, but you know what? I've seen good, too. Oh, yes. And to throw out the bad and good of humanity is wrong. It's cultural and biological genocide.
That's the Conversion Bureau.
And this, is a good take on it, a lot more realistic, for lack of a better word, than the usual... things we see from this corner.
I hate to ask this but what problems do the world faces that the only solution is being turned into a pony? I don't question the existence of suffering in the world. You are correct to point out the problem, but your solution is rather dubious. In fact, those problems would make setting up a conversion bureau impossible.
Do you think the people who commit genocide against other ethnic groups would give up being a part of their ethnicity to be turned given the fact that they kill their fellow human people for being in a different ethnic group? Do you think a Rwanda Tutsi, who was born and raise to love his ethnic group and to hate the rival Hutu tribe and wage war against them would give up being a Tutsi and be turned into a pony? What about the German SS officers running concentration camps to make Germany and its conquered territory free of the so-called "inferior" races? Do you think they would choose to be ponies?
Do you think that the African warlord Kony would permit ponies to set up a conversion bureau in his territory? He would send those very same child soldiers who you wish to help to slaughter any pony that sets foot in the Congo. It's not out of the question they would follow orders. Kony has no problem getting them to kill humans for him. Imagine setting up a conversion bureau in Nazi Germany. Same results as setting up shop in war-torn Congo except Nazi Germany has Joseph Goebbels, the Third Reich Minister of Propaganda, who will somehow convict the Nazi Party faithful that the Conversion Bureau is a plot by the ponies and the Jews to destroy the Aryan race. Even relatively benevolent governments would be unlike to permit their citizens to be ponified. The loyalty of these ponified humans would be called into question. Are they still devoted to the country of their birth or to Equestria? Bureaucrats and politicians seldom take action that will diminish their power. The only places where conversion bureaus would be permitted to operate would be nations that place a strong emphasis on individual liberty and freedom. And guess what? Those places tend to be the most prosperous and peaceful places to live when compared to the rest of the world.
For you see, most of the world's problems today can be contributed to abuses of government or ethnocentric prejudices. Those suffering in developing nations can't use the conversion bureaus because they are either still caught up on ethnocentric thinking and/or they are under the thumb of a totalitarian or kleptocratic government that would not permit them in their territory, and the people who do live in nations that permit conversion bureaus don't need ponification to solve their problems (they may want to be ponified, but it's not a necessity for them) because individual liberty and freedom has given them a good life.
One more thing to consider. In the original Conversion Bureau story, humans have been in contact with ponies for centuries. That's centuries for Celestia to carry out a propaganda campaign over the course of many human generations and to steer society towards accepting assimilation into the herd. She has the lifespan for this long-term planning. She doesn't have to worry about future pony rulers scrapping her plans. This actually makes the Blaze story more plausible than the ones where ponies are discovered by man in the near future and humanity is eager to give up their very nature and identity to become ponies.
The other TCB concept is on the high plausibility scale (as far as human behavior is concern and excluding the existence talking magic ponies) is PER. A small group of ponified humans, dissatisfied with the lack of interest in ponification by the general population, goes rogue and force people to be turned. I can definitely see that.
For a long time today, I was hesitant to respond to you, Chatoyance. I was ... emotional when I read your first posting. I apologize for being as harsh as I was but I feel I was justified slightly in being so. While it may not seem like it to you, the way I read your post (and still read it, actually) was essentially you calling me "fat and happy, sipping colas and enjoying [my] Ipad..." As much as my story and postings may have irked you, that was frankly uncalled for. After reading your second post, I see you didn't quite mean it that way. Please, accept my apologies for misreading your post but also my firm stance behind my response to yours.
However, CrossoverManiac has said about 50% of the things I would have liked to draw your attention to in your assertions. I would add to it the fact that human religions almost universally condemns the 'non-human' to the point of proscribing simple body modifications in many situations. And humanity is an extremely faithful species with a vast majority of those places where you would like to point to as benefiting from ponification the cores of human religion. Imams across the globe would forbid ponification (Middle East of course). The Pope would undoubtedly denounce it as 'contrary to Gods plan' (South America is extremely Catholic). The American South would probably be the site of extremist attacks on ponies and those that chose that route (Baptist, in most respects). Africa is, as Crossover pointed out, mired in ethnic conflict that outright hates the 'other' and what is more other than intelligent, candy-colored ponies? Here's a simple test: if it is a place that being homosexual is still a situation where you take your life in your own hands should you let someone know, that's probably a good sign that ponies and ponification would not be tolerated.
But let's get to a bit of the heart of the situation, as I see it. You feel ponification is a good thing. I don't disagree in total. IF it really is as the show says it is and IF Equestria is as clean as most believe and IF the Princesses aren't tyrants in disguise and IF they have true equality and liberty and IF and IF and IF ... Better the terror you know than the horror you don't? But still, even with all those unanswered questions (and, really, rather silly academic ones as it is just a children's show and doesn't exist), I would still be for ponification. Except it's really not ... I don't know how to phrase this. Honorable? Honest?
WE humans made this planet what it is, for better or worse. We did this, you included. Ever buy a Stouffers microwavable meal? You're supporting, through your pocketbook, deforestation of the Amazon, wage-slavery, flat-out-slavery in some plantations, mistreatment of workers, governmental abuses of rights ... Our fathers and mothers and grandfathers and grandmothers did what they thought best to survive and prosper. And, in some cases, because we were trying to do what we thought was right. Not because we're evil or greedy or foul. Go to ANY human on the street and ask if they are evil and almost no one will say yes. The Nazis wouldn't say yes and they were right bastards. Everyone may admit to doing bad things but they are, at their heart, good people. We didn't have a Princess Celestia mother-figure to guide us. We never had an undying sun-lord to tell us, from her thousands of years of life and experience, what works best and what we ought do. We did this, together and unaided. And frankly, we did a fairly decent job without some Mommy-Sun or Daddy-Sun or somesuch telling us what to do, in a real physical sense (I'm discounting ancient stories because who knows where those came from). Is the world messed up? Sure. In some places worse than others and overall I'd give it a big fat 2 of 10 on the 'nice place to live' scale. But it's our world, our mess, our problems. We did a crappy job but we never had any real instructions or teachers.
And here's the rub. When the ponification comes in those stories, what happens? All the human-made problems go away ... at the hooves of our furry benefactors. Humans-turned-ponies help but overall, it's the ponies cleaning OUR mess, cleaning our mistakes, cleaning our planet and cleaning us up. Take a drink, have all your childhood neuroses dissipate. They've given us a free ride, a free pass, a 'get out of a purgatory you made free' card. That's just, ugh, irresponsible. We CAN be better, we can be nice and happy and damn near perfect. So when I say I wouldn't be a pony, I mean it. Not because it's hip' or 'ironic' or whatever, though you never said so and I don't think that's what you meant. I mean it because I'm not going to throw away two million years of evolution and several thousand years of cultural growth because an easier life comes along. If I wanted the easy way out, I'd have slit my wrists decades ago.
>>373938 ">> Nightgazer
That assumes the process cures them somehow. That actually might be TBC canon, I can't remember and I'll be arsed if I'm going to read the whole story to find out. Still, I'll keep my asthma and my thumbs. "
Let's see now.
Stay a human with my swollen, from parasites in the lymph-veins, legs and feet and soon to spread to groin with great pain and which will eventually kill me quite dead.
Or become a pony and have a healthy body, parasite-induced pain gone, life no longer ending before 41 or thereabouts for me anymore.
Hmmm...
Fire up that conversion machine and let me in there to be ponified and pain free!
Too busy to read the whole flame war, so how about this line of thinking:
>Ponies invite all 7 billion humans to join them in Equestria
>Ponies have resources to provide for 7 billion+ individuals without hunger, scarcity, and all that bad stuff
>Ponies will only share it if you become pony too
Sounds like a scumbag Steve move to me.
Also, cool story, bro. I mean that sincerely.
Just to mention with your whole 'religion' thing, but seeing as both Catholicism and Islam are open to the existence of extraterrestrial life, I think they'd be okay with ponies. I don't think they, or anyone else for that manner, would be okay with two magical ponies that insist they control the sun or moon, but then again it depends on how it's all presented I suppose.
Oh my god, The Conversion Bureau universe is just one big Scumbag Steve. That is brilliant.
If being "ponified" cures the humans undergoing the process of all their ills (asthma, cancer, whatever), why isn't it possible for the ponies to simply cure the afflicted human WITHOUT changing their species? I mean, if they have the ability to alter the physical body on such a fundamental level, why can't they use the same process/magic/technology/whatever without the "ponifying" part? Heck, it should be EASIER, I'd think. It almost seems like the ponies are deliberately holding this back, as in "Oh sure we can cure you, but first you have to give up your body. And your nation and your culture. And parts of your mind. Really, most of what makes you you." Ponies are only willing to really help you if you are pony as well... sounds a bit racist. Scumbag Steve indeed.
On that note, I have to agree with how nonsensical it would be for everyone who is "ponified" to immediately swear allegiance to the Princesses. Doesn't make any sense. Same with changing their names to something more pony-like. Why would changing their physical form change EVERYTHING about who they are as a person? A possible explanation for this is that it also changes their mind as well, in which case it effectively kills who they once were and replaces them with a pony that resembles who they were in many ways and yet isn't really them anymore (which I find incredibly disturbing).
If the argument is that the new ponies have to assimilate into Equestrian life, and that if they simply became ponies without swearing allegiance to the Princesses they would still have all the same problems they had before (which they would unless their mind was changed as well, and I already pointed out how INCREDIBLY DISTURBING THAT IS), then WHY did they have to become ponies in the first place? Couldn't they have remained human and just lived under Celestia's rule?
Of course, there's the whole thing about magic being deadly to humans... It's like radiation, or something, from what I can tell. Targeted radiation that is lethal to humans and not ponies. And yet it is treated as a good thing? What if the human world emitted a type of radiation that was deadly only to ponies, but not any other plants or animals? Would that still be a good thing? I can't quite illustrate my point clearly here, but I hope I at least communicated the basis of my frustration.
Anyway, if the radiation ("magic") is harmful to humans and nothing else, why couldn't the ponies come up with a way to transform humans into human-like beings that AREN'T harmed by the radiation? Again, they have the capability to fundamentally alter and reshape the physical form of a living being, so why couldn't they simply make humans immune to or at least not harmed by the radiation instead of turning them into ponies? Makes no sense.
Lastly, I must point out that the ponies of the Conversion Bureau universe are committing genocide, and the only question is whether it is "merely" cultural genocide or complete genocide.
Okay, that wasn't the most articulate post I've ever made, but hopefully it was at least somewhat understandable. Perhaps I have misunderstood some aspects of the CB universe and am unjustly upset. If so, please let me know so. Again, sorry for the poor quality of my writing, I haven't had much sleep this week.
EDIT: Minalkra's comment of "...our furry benefactors." just gave me an image of the ponies as the Combine. The similarities are actually somewhat frightening.
It is usually shown to alter their personality and treated as a good thing since it the new personality is more happy and I don't think any explanation has ever been given as to why you have to change your name, culture, and country. It’s one of the more irritating things I find about the whole thing. The ponies are pretty much forcing humanity to choose between completely surrendering all of your freedoms, right down to control of your mind and body or dying.
I really like this story. Especially the Human Pride Front. They seem like a much more realistic human response. Peaceful protests and pointing out how racist the ponies are and how they are profiting from genocide.
Ways to have mass ponification without ponies being Scumbag Steves:
1). The barrier separating Equestria from the human world is falling apart, not even human tech, Celestia, or the Elements of Harmony can stop it, magic is fatal to human physiology, and the only way they won't die is ponification
2). Ponification is purely the creation and idea of humans a.k.a. PER and they act as the Scumbag Steves in the story
3). A human, who coveted pony powers, decides to do a little genetic tweaking on himself and give himself telekinetic powers like a unicorn and goofs up. The retrovirus he used to encode pony DNA into his cells goes into overdrive and turns him into a pony. Not only that, but the retrovirus is extreme contagious and, as a result, ponification becomes a pandemic.
4). Because of Derpy Hooves 
http://www.vhemt.org/
I think is a prime example of the type of mindset necessary for the vast majority of our species to be willing to give up their identity as humans and to become ponies.
In real life, the Volunteer Human Extinction Movement is a non-entity in our society. But somehow, in the world of the Conversion Bureau, this self-hating, anti-human mindset became commonplace enough that people thought of humanity as nonredeemable and fallen too far from grace to be saved. I know it's not exactly the same as VHEM, but in both cases humanity is thought of something negative and be destroyed for the good of the world. For VHEM, the solution is to not procreate and negative population growth. For the Conversion Bureau, it is to transform man into a being that is supposedly more benign and peaceful.
Yes but I don't think people turning into ponies is part of any human god's plan and they both seem to be pretty big on that sort of thing. Ponies being here, ok. Ponies trying to turn us all into ponies, not so much. Hinduism might be down with it but probably not as it short-cuts the whole 'get rid of bad karma' thing you're supposed to do before Nirvana.
It is total genocide. The expanding radiation from Equestria will kill every Human and wipe all traces of Humanity from the Earth. Not to mention the ponified Humans do not have any memories of being Human nor do they have keepsakes/artifacts of Humanity's time.
You also mentioned why can't the Ponies make Humans immune or at least resistant to the radiation. Well, Chatoyance's cyberpunk-esque setting has very advanced nanotech (hell, the ponification serum in her stories is a nanotech/magic hybrid solution). So why can't humanity use nanomachines (or hybrid magic-nanomachines) to repair the damage caused by the radiation?
That's the thing down; I don't see any major group, religious or not, going into the pony thing. And that in essence is the problem with TCB; everyone wants to do it, with rates of conversion that would cripple most economies or industries with how much labor is disappearing. Yet still human society is stable enough to form active resistance groups that are akin to the devil in terms of sympathy, having Global Superpower funds and technology at their disposal along with it.
Well there's a lot of other things wrong with TCB, but I'll boil it down to a few key terms: Drang Nach Osten, Generalplan Ost, forced assimilation, and such blatant, inexcusable messages for imperialism and xenophobia that it makes even a fascist like me cringe.
What flame war? So far I'm mostly seeing just arguments as to why TCB is a horrible, horrible universe, with a few pathetic defenses on the part of midnightshadow and Chatoyance that can't even be counted as such; this is no flamer war, this is a massacre. And I love it.
I've yet to see a realistic and neutral TCB fic. I really liked this one because it provided a welcome contrast to traditional "Ponies are good, all humans are evil, except for my main characters who naturally end up getting converted" TCB, but it was itself a bit against ponies. Just my opinion.
And it immediately sparked a debate in the comments. Hehe. Could see that coming for miles 
Honestly, these debates are interesting to read, and also a bit saddening. Seeing how much disdain some have for their own species is sad, yet I mostly agree that we are bad. But am I the only one who doesn't hate the entire species for it? Who doesn't believe that we are completely, utterly, undoubtedly evil?
Isn't thinking like that in a way racist (speciesist?) and thus something that the perfect ponies would never do?
I'd write more, but most of what I would say has already been said, by the author no less, and much better put than I could. And nobody will read this anyway, so there's that.
Anyways, I'd actually like to see more of this setting. :)
"Isn't thinking like that in a way racist (speciesist?) and thus something that the perfect ponies would never do?"
Don't you know?
Ponies and misanthropes promoting the complete annihilation of all humans and their culture is perfectly valid and reasonable of them.
A human that doesn't want to be converted, doesn't automatically trust every pony ever, and finds the destruction of their species and its arts, scientific achievements, and everything they have ever done? Why, said person is probably Hitler in disguise!!!!
If anybody knows any good fanfiction that addresses this problem, please tell me about.
>people prefer to fight over a branch of fim fiction rather than enjoys it
Image: http://i.imgur.com/OSqA3.gifYou guys surely have a lot of spare time
About the story...
It did takes a different approach, but it's still got a much better perspective about this fictional universe rather than many other weird bureau fics out there.
Loved this kind of simple fic
Well I finally got down to reading some of the other fics in this group, and I'm glad I picked this one. It was a good read and a refreshing take on the concept. Goodness knows I'm tired of the doom and gloom. Too bad about the philosophical discussion dominating most of these comments though. That's a headache I could have done without.
I don't quite feel I'm the one you should be directing that to. However, I accept that and offer my own for, uhm, 'talking down' to you as I may have seemed to have done. It was not my intention but re-reading my post, I can see that it may have seemed that way.
>>380808 I officially like you.
Come to think of it, I officially like anyone who's disgusted by the idea of the Conversion Bureaus. It's good to know there's so many other fans in the community who realize how contrary it runs to the show's ideals.
You see, to me these stories don't disturb me because they present an end-of-the-world scenario, or portray a setting where humanity is insignificant. I've watched Threads. I've read Lovecraft. I got my share of nightmares from both. But in the end, neither was too upsetting in the long-term, because they knew their premises were utterly horrific, and presented them without plastered-on smiles.
Not so with the Conversion Bureaus. They disturb me because most of them are products of an author who thinks I deserve to die, along with everyone else on Earth.
This was well written, I could definitely see this being a typical "one-shot" news report, something on MSNBC or FOX. I remember the first time I read a CB fic, and thinking that I would jump at the chance, if that were to happen. Bu then I realized that we have a responsibility to make our world better, instead of abandoning it for a better one.
'Genocide', as a word, is so easily abused in this science fictional situation.
Yes, literally, it applies; the human genome is being eliminated from existence. But the same would be true if a brave, strong, smart humanity choose to alter itself through genegineering to become biologically immortal and capable of regeneration - two wonderful notions - or decided to upload itself to become immortal machine-people, or any number of other ways that the Singularity is seen. In all such cases, humanity survives, just as an improved version of itself, superior in every way.
The only reason to use the word 'Genocide' is to invoke Hitlerian notions, which I think all can agree is pretty much the death of rational discussion on the internet. How does it go? 'The moment Hitler is invoked, the conversation is over?' Something like that.
Conversion is synonymous with Singularity. It is the Pony Singularity.
Humanity in Conversion Bureau stories is not being killed off in Hitlerian style, rather it is being transformed into something better, nicer, and longer lived. Most authors place pony life at 150+ years, all in perfect health, not to mention the addition of a potentially factual afterlife thanks to the existence of real magic!
So the real issue here is not that the human genome is vanishing - it will do that, naturally, in time no matter what - but rather what it is being replaced by. Vastly more important, however, is that unlike 'Genocide' as you are using the word - NOBODY DIES.
No individuals perish, no person is killed, and no soul is lost. Indeed, thanks to magic, if anything, souls - real souls- are very likely gained.
So, looked at correctly, we have a fairly aggressive, highly intelligent primate stuck in an entropic, mechanical, dead-end universe, being transformed bodily into an unaggressive, cooperative, highly intelligent equinoid with the gains of a longer life span, better health, better healing, better senses, better mobility, the use of real magic, and very likely the gaining of some kind of factual, immortal soul as well as factual, personified deities - and all of this set in a wonderland of magic and abundance.
The actual paradigm that you should be using is not Hitlerian genocide, but rather something more along the lines of the Christian Rapture, or better still, the Nerd Rapture that is the Singularity.
This isn't the death of anyone. This is all about hope for a better universe.
Conversion Stories are, fundamentally, the fantasy that there could be something better than the cold, uncaring, soul-less, mechanical cosmos we are horrifically trapped in. They are the basic fantasy trope; a better future, a better life, a better world.
I find it hilarious that the same premise that gets religious people all glowy and bouncing around like Pinkie-Pie hopped up on sugar, suddenly becomes Hitlerian Genocide when it is recast as aliens and the intrusion of another universe, rather than Jesus and heaven. Because that is the core of all of this.
(Can you imagine the crap you would get comparing the Christian Rapture to Genocide? Gosh, that would be fun to do!)
The Conversion Bureau is essentially the Church Of Equestria, and ponification serum is a symbolic baptism into the Elysian Fields of Equestria. It draws from the very same fount, and it is basically the very same story. You just replace Luna and Celestia as the deities, swap heaven for an expanding alien cosmos, and add the expected helping of peace, love, and magic.
Once you realize this, the whole thing becomes obvious. Completely obvious.
I hope this helps.
Godwin's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1. Usually meant as an attempt to deter such things.
The essential problem, I think, is not that the CB universe allows for conversion into pony forms. We are all fans of the same franchise here, we've all had some form of fantasy involving either becoming a pony or being a human in the pony world. The problem is the rampant anti-humanism that these stories seem to embrace as well as the implication that it's not longer a CHOICE (a choice that some Singularity events would respect, depending on how you see the Singularity which, in and off itself, is a philosophical concept that as-yet has little real-world data to back up the existence of such a thing), the change is required to continue to exist. It doesn't matter if humanity wants to become another segment of the equine population. In order to continue to survive, you must become a part of that population. A Singularity is fine so long as it's a choice. A Singularity that becomes a necessity is to be reviled.
Something I've noticed, Chatoyance, is your reliance on your own head-canon. I've read many stories where the ponies of Equestria have life spans comparable to earth Equines. Thus, Granny Smith would be something like my age, 30. Who's to say ponies live so long? Who's to say the ponies have better senses? Who's to say ponies have magic that cures all ills? If they exist in such blissful utopia, what point are the Royal Guards there for? It's all a personal utopic fantasy ideal. Some don't share that ideal.
Indeed, I have certain head canon that make the ponies much less idealized and far more ... grim and heartless. It's all about what you like, really, from a drama and storytelling standpoint. I like, though have never used, the notion that Equestrians live only as long as Earth ponies. We have such stories of elves and other long-lived beings, what a twist to have us be the elves to another race, hmm? Or what if the 'cooperation' of all includes the gelding of certain males due to slightly higher testosterone as an attempt to limit 'aggressiveness?' Why are there so few of the other intelligent races of Equestria shown? Perhaps they practice slavery and thus any non-Equine must have a registered 'owner' such what's been suggested some places with Spike and Twilight (with Twilight being such a nice master-race pony that she sees him more as a brother)? You are basing many arguments off head canon and I've seen just as many grim and heartless fics that base their own worlds off head canon of the same caliber as your own. No one's head canon is better than any other head canon.
As an aside, I find religion and its sister, spirituality, barbaric and grotesque to an extreme in the majority of cases. The idea that the believer KNOWS the essentially unknowable, that through some personal mental contact that person has been gifted a greater insight into the universe that flies in the face of logic and reason ... Hope is beautiful. Hope is beautiful and wonderful and a joy upon which dreams and art are made. But when that hope mutates into black-and-white belief with no room for reason or change or the acceptance of other points of view, well. That's a pony of a different color.
"I hope this helps."
Mmmmmmnope.
Ponification, as presented in the stories, takes away the mind and the body. Once you've taken those from someone, just what exactly is left that made them, them? Even if I were to be very generous and not count this as killing someone and using their body's materials to build a completely different person, it still boils down to, at best, butchering and lobotomizing their brain into compliance. The benefits to living in Equestria as described in your fics are hard to argue against, but the fact is that the person experiencing them isn't you.
"The only reason to use the word 'Genocide' is to invoke Hitlerian notions, which I think all can agree is pretty much the death of rational discussion on the internet."
Calling Godwin on someone who never mentioned Hitler or the Nazis is cheating, and stop making up words. I call it genocide because, no matter the method, it involves one underlying thing: wiping all those damn <insert target here> from the universe. In fact, just to demonstrate this, why don't I compare it to a pre-20th century genocide? The European settlement of North America should do nicely.
One day, a group of strange-looking people ("the foreigners") from a far-off land show up and greet the people living there ("the natives"). Initially, they appear peaceful, but soon they start making themselves very unwelcome. The foreigners start helping themselves to the natives' land. The foreigners decide, to hell with it, they'll take all the natives' land, wipe out their culture, and force them to completely and utterly conform to the foreigners' lifestyle, surrendering every shred of independence and trace of identity. Any native that fails to comply is killed. The foreigners believe they are justified in doing this because they consider themselves the superior race, so of course they can do whatever they want to those inferior natives. The natives fight back as well as they can, but are hopelessly outmatched and ultimately lose.
Change "foreigners" to "ponies" and "natives" to "humans", and bam! Instant Conversion Bureau! Except wait, in the real life version the natives didn't all die, they still own some land, and there are programs to preserve their heritage. Not nearly enough for a happy ending, but still better than what happens in CB. Congratulations, in attempting to make a race totally superior to humanity, you've made one that's comparatively morally bankrupt!
"(Can you imagine the crap you would get comparing the Christian Rapture to Genocide? Gosh, that would be fun to do!)"
Honestly I've probably done this at some point.
You both bring up powerful and intriguing points. It is indeed easy to see the Ponypocalypse of the Bureau stories as conquest - indeed I have written it as a deliberate conquest in my own stories (See Code Majeste and The 800 Year Promise).
I think that any Singularity must needs be a conquest story. I do not think any Singularity can ever be about choice, other than a choice-that-is-no-choice. If immortal machine people ever arise, or supercomputer entities gain sapience, it will be evolution in action. There just is no choice: join the winners, or end up obsolete, useless, and no longer relevant.
It's like being a luddite today: any person who turns their back on the current Singularity - personal electronics, the internet, and instant communication - is all but invisible and nonexistent except to themselves and the few like them. They cannot be relevant in the world in any meaningfully powerful way. They are not even on the map. I am thinking of those who demonstrate in the streets, like people did in the sixties. It's pointless. The news won't even carry it, except to make fun of it. But the internet....
I am not arguing that conquest is good. But I do think it cannot be ignored that it is real, and horrifically inevitable. People will conquer themselves, if the invaders present things that they want. I'm thinking Amazonian tribals with Nikes and tee-shirts in the jungle.
I think I do say that in the times when conquest is inevitable and unstoppable, the best choice, the only choice, is to assimilate rather than be destroyed. To survive is to have the hope of a voice, but to perish or be marginalized completely accomplishes nothing but failure.
When the machine overlords come, or the ponies, I will be first in line to join the winners.
Because it is the winners who write history.
Is this right or good? It just is. It's how the world works, how it always worked. How it always will work.
Am I anti-human? Perhaps I am, mostly for the reason above, as well as, well, history. I like people. But I think I don't much like humanity, as a species. Because, history.
I honestly don't see humanity surviving, unless it is replaced by something else, either at it's own hand, or by an accident in a lab. Or by time and evolution.
Thus my stories have to be about humans being conquered by Something Better. They cannot save themselves. Because, history.
I'm trying to find a way to word my response that won't be construed as a personal attack but ... I just can't think of one. I'm sorry, but all of my responses revolve around the inconsistencies of your posts. I'm sure I've made my own, I'm not a professional debater so feel free to attack my own as thou wilt. But pointing them out can be seen as a personal assault in some situations and I feel that would be the case here.
But I can't leave it alone. If the ponies are aggressively expansionist, that negates your argument they are somehow morally superior to humanity and worthy of joining on that front. If, on the other hand, they are rather pacifistic, they would not enjoy nor welcome the view you just described (i.e. survive no matter the cost to others) and you would be changed on a greatly fundamental level in the joining of them. You would not be 'you' so much as a pony with your memories. But that's ... extremely human of you, Chatoyance. Join the Winning side and let the Losers, well, die off in this case.
Humanity has grown somewhat beyond that. We recognize the unfortunate actions which led to the slaughter of the Tribes of America or the enslavement of the African people or the Holocaust and we've taken steps, no matter how ineffective they may be, to try to make sure such a thing can never happen again. We try to help others make and keep their choices, as best we can. And here you are, saluting the ponies for doing the exact opposite. Are they Something Better? Or something ... younger?
Another head-canon I have, which is applicable in this case, is that the pony civilization is currently in a developmental period quite like the early part of the last century. They struggle with racism and biogtry, with misandry (in their case, ours was misogynism) and militarism. They are a reflection, as all human-concept creations are, of us. Just at an earlier time. So the imperialism that you so embrace in their case fits remarkably well.
I really have little else to say. I also must apologize if my post here seems harsh toward you. I don't mean it to be. I just couldn't leave well enough alone, it seems.
You have been only polite to me, even when offended, so fear not. I have only good feelings towards you. And I understand that the things I think are not... something. I don't have the word here, but... I know I think disturbing things.
The bottom line here for me is that I am tired of humanity pretending it's getting better when it isn't. I look out on a world where people talk as if so much has been done but... slavery still exists across most of the world, debt slavery, racial slavery, economic slavery... I honestly don't see that the basic way civilization works has changed. Indeed, it seems worse: from my studies of history, slaves in Rome had significantly more freedom, benefits, protections and guarantees than the average 'free' wage slave in the First World. What's up with that? Nothing good, in my mind.
I look out on a world where race relations have gotten worse, not better, where crazy-ass religions have power over social policies, where the science that might save us is bastardized for corporate benefit, and where every nation keeps on sliding into a full-on, cameras everywhere Orwellian Nightmare.
From my research, the oceans are poisoned with radiation, though that is not commonly reported, and it is no secret we are in the greatest mass extinction in the history of the planet. Humans breed like flies, and there is no way to stop them; war is endemic, constant, and ultimately all about profit and control. The entire planet is four times past complete economic bankruptcy, we coast along trying to disbelieve this as we all, collectively, head to what will make the Great Depression look like abundance.
10,000 years of this shit. The same thing, over and over. We know now that what destroyed the Inca and the Aztecs was not conquistadors but their own economic policies - they did exactly what we are doing now, by inventing fiat capital. That is what killed Rome, too, as well as ancient Egypt and... pretty much every other major civilization. They greed themselves to death, and then topple. 10,000 years of doing this, over and over and over, and our modern world is already falling apart. The next 50 years are going to suck as hard as the Dark Ages, which they will likely resemble.
I used to believe in us monkeys. I really did. But then I started reading and learning and paying attention and now... as I watch Greece fall into austerity riots all while electing the very same bankers that killed their nation to the leadership of it, the same just about to happen to the rest of Europe... as I read about the militarized police gunning innocent people down for carrying a candybar, or the DHS buying up hollow-point murder bullets to use on citizens, or the DUMB's, the Deep Underground Military Bases where the wealthy elite have tickets to survive the riots...
Yeah, I like writing stories about nicer species saving our collective asses, because I don't think we ever will do the job ourselves.
I want to take issue with Chatoyance's post. I won't make claims about the future of this country since I can't make those predictions nor can anyone else. First off, historians have argued for centuries why civilizations rise and fall. Many have blamed the practice of hiring the Germanic tribes as Roman soldiers and trusting them for the defense of Rome as the result of Rome's fall. I've heard claims that Rome fell because of rampant immorality that destroyed the family unit. Fiat currency is a new one on me. Secondly, fiat currency, as destructive as it can potentially be, is not the proverbial nail in the coffin for a nation. The Weimar Republic had hyperinflation that so terrible that it was cheaper to burn German Marks than to buy firewood with the same amount of money. In twenty years, Germany went from that badly beaten country with money worth less than the paper it was printed on to the one of the greatest threats Europe ever faced, and you don't get to be a threat without both the military and economic might to back it up. This is not mentioned to congratulate the square mustache tyrant but to prove a point about cries of the end of civilization. Sometimes, bad times will destroy a nation as it did with Rome and the Aztecs. Some times, it will only knock it down a peg or two like Great Britain, the empire that once boast that the sun always shined upon since it was spread throughout the globe. Other times, it will only strengthen the resolve of its people as did the Great Depression did for the US and or the aftermath of WWII did for the Japanese. And that leads to another point. Chatoyance claims the world has gotten worse. No, it has actually gotten better. While the Western world has stagnated, the two largest nations, in terms of population, has seen economic booms-China and India. That's about three billion people whose nation is steadily on the economic rise. China has gone a long way since collectivist farming created famines so terrible that households would swap their dead children in order to cannibalize their bodies because they could not bear the thought of eating their own children. I am not making this up to be a bigot against the Chinese people. This was said by Kai Chen, "a former member of the Chinese national basketball team whose relatives were hauled off under Mao Zedong's Cultural Revolution"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY if you're not interested in watching the whole video, skip to 5:20.
China, in the human rights department, still sucks, but the overall quality of life has improved for its citizens. India is also improving. Even sub-Sahara Africa is seeing economic improvement. To be able to accurately say things are getting better, the quality of life would have to be worse than it was before. For many people in the developing nations in the world, the overall quality of life is improving even if it has a long way to go to reach the Western standard of living. So no, not everyone has it worse. In fact, for many, things have been getting better.
>>432810 " we are in the greatest mass extinction in the history of the planet."
Wat? No we're not, ever heard of the Permian Mass Extinction? It's estimated that 96% of all marine species and another 70% of terrestrial animals, as well as being the only known mass extinction of insects. The amount of species of plants and animals to go extinct since the beginning of the 1990s is barely a handful, and you're clearly bullshitting with this one.
Honestly, while some of the TCB stories are an entertaining read, ponification itself creeps me out.
In just about every story I've read, those who have been ponified seem to undergo a fundamental shift in how they think.
I keep thinking that it's like the potion took the devil on your shoulder out back and shot him, then came back and gave the angel a megaphone.
I don't bullshit.
"Earth may be in the midst of the greatest extinction ever, according to a new mass extinction scoring system.
"The current extinction resembles none of the earlier ones, and may end up being the greatest of all," write Istanbul Technical University researchers A. M. Celal Sengor, Saniye Atayman and Sinan Ozeren.
Their system, published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, attempts to quantify those periods when more than half of all species disappeared. In addition to the current mass extinction, this has happened at least five times: the End Ordovician, Late Devonian, End Permian, End Triassic and End Cretaceous. The latter — marking the end of the Age of Dinosaurs — receives the most attention, but scientists have been unable to decide which extinction was most significant.
That debate may finally be settled, though the answer is unsettling.
"If unchecked, the current extinction threatens to be the greatest killer of all time," write the researchers."
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/latest-extincti/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction
http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/eldredge2.html
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/02/the-6th-great-m.html
http://www.endangeredspeciesinternational.org/overview.html
http://www.livescience.com/13038-humans-causing-sixth-mass-extinction.html
Am I the only one who finds it extremely odd that the humans never seem to do anything significant to revert, stop, or make the bubble's expansion harmless? The driving issue in the decision to convert is said expansion of the bubble in which Equestria lies in: convert, or you die. So wouldn't it be reasonable for scientists work with ponies (or without them if we're going with the scumbag Steve trope that most TCB stories seem to have) to find a way to stop the bubble from ending all things human on Earth? Hell, I can even see nations getting desperate as the bubble grows and grows and 'declare war' on the bubble and unleash all their military might in a last-ditch effort to growing tumor.
...in fact, that would make for a compelling story: the nations of the world, with the threat of mass extinction if the bubble is not stopped, and the conversion not a viable option, decide that if they must go down, they'll go down fighting, resisting until the very last second. And the Princesses would have none of that...
An excellent addition, though I thought it unneeded at the time due to the point already being made. A lot.
And oh my god, is this argument still going on in this story? I'd be dumbstruck, if my brain wasn't too busy strangling itself at Chatoyance's comments. Which isn't really a new experience, but still. Speaking of Chatoyance, time to throw myself into the hornet's nest again...
I know it's futile trying to argue with you, since you're... well I'll be kind for once and just say stubborn, but do you honestly think that the current world, one where horrid things like the Holocaust, gladiatorial combat, crucifixion, and pedophila are not openly done or celebrated like in the past? Because that's the vibe I'm getting from your posts.
Also, fuck you for bringing up Godwin's Law. You can't just say that and hope my argument goes away like most of the internet, since using the Nazis here is actually a fucking valid comparison. Trying to throw away the argument with pointless ad hominem like that only hurts your argument more than the rest of your ranting already does. (EDIT: On closer inspection, I'm unsure if you're trying to deflect the Hitler comparison or insulting people for using it. Either way, it's pointless distraction from a topic you refuse to answer in any real way. As usual.)
I wonder why the hell I'm commenting in the first place. It won't solve anything, neither side will admit the other is right. It's just a constant annoyance to me that the pro-TCB side can never give a decent argument for their support of the series that doesn't explicitly support genocide. Perhaps I'm just so bored and depressed that this is the only thing I can do. Sift through crap. Not your story that is, but the crap that floods the comments and stories of this site like diarrhea after Taco night. It's like a slow suicide I suppose. Mrw.
Then again, I'm also wondering why the hell some random guy responded to a post I did... "3 weeks ago?" What the actual hell?
You know what's really depressing?
This thing, this ... story, for lack of a better term, I did in four or five hours after catching the tail end of some idiotic Fox News report as I left the office has more views and more comments and has inspired more discussion than the story I'm actually TRYING to do a decent job on.
I'd laugh, but at least you got views for your story. Let's take mine for example:
>Over 100,000 words.
>600 views at most.
Admittedly all of those words are terrible, but still, I'm depressed, and feel like bitching to some random fuck on the internet. No offense of course.
It could be a Hitler pony with the toothbrush mustache and everything. Actually, without the historical Hitler context, he could gather a great deal of support from the working class and traditionalist segments of pony society. A real "Stallions in the Guard or at home" type of fellow.
I always had a fascination with how the ponies would react to fascism/communism. I have a strange feeling that an organization like the Iron Guard would do quite well in Equestria.
Aaaand this is why I like these stories. Not for the story itself, but for the interesting conversation/flamewar that ensues.
(That being said, your deconstruction was pretty decent.)
And I wait with both eagerness and dread the day a CB'er shows up in something I'm writing. One one hand, their reaction at ponies and Trader humans living peacefully together (and ponies acting like, well, people, and not luddite superior Elves) would be hillarious.
On the other hand... 
Love this. It's a nicely written, simple counterbalance to the standard TCB take on things.
I've heard a lot of arm-chair sociology/anthropology from people who do a lot of "research" and can list hundreds of extant atrocities that supposedly make the world a horrible place to live in. And, as it stands, the world is far from perfect... but, some of us love it (and our neighbors and ourselves) enough to stick around and keep trying to fix it.
In the end, most people who espouse these views of an irredeemable world have never actually been to the real shitty places. Over the last few years, I've had the opportunity to visit and live in some of the most war-torn, poverty-stricken parts of our planet as part of various small and large organizations looking to make life a little bit better for the people who have it the worst. And I will be the first to admit... at first, it's depressing. Real depressing. But when you start to actually live with the people in those places... a funny thing happens. You realize that, throughout their struggles and sadness and death, they're still people. Most of them bear or even shrug off all the shit life throws at them and just live their lives day to day, loving their families and their neighbors.
They find happiness where we couldn't imagine there was any... which, in hindsight is an extremely condescending, patronizing, dehumanizing viewpoint to have (the idea that just because they have it rough, they can't be satisfied with their lives or proud of their achievements, meager though some of us might think they are). Realizing this makes helping them that much easier and that much more necessary, because if anyone deserves an easier life, it's the people who manage to find happiness while living a hard one.
All of this has reminded me of two quotes I thoroughly enjoy recalling at every opporunity:
"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. "
- Mahatma Gandhi
"As in the rankest soil the most beautiful flowers are grown, so in the dark soil of poverty the choicest flowers of humanity have developed and bloomed."
- James Allen
Anyway, that's my two cents. Take it as you will. Oh, and I hope you don't mind, but I went ahead and added this to the group: Humans Aren't Bastards. It felt appropriate to do so, though let me know if you'd like it removed.
News flash!
Well, I know it probably doesn't matter all that much to you, but I wanted to let you know that you've inspired my work of recent. The fanfiction that I am writing was inspired almost completely by your Conversion Bureau fics, which I am reviewing in short order on my blog. I am soon going to have an influx (hopefully) of readers to it, which, if all goes well, will be redirected to you. If you like, you can read the blog, but really all im here to say is thank you. Thank you for the inspiration and the reading material, and the new viewpoint represented by your "what would really happen" fic. It's changed the course of my writing, and certainly for the better. Anyway, beyond that, I just wanted to say good luck on any future projects, I hope you do nearly as well as I hope you will...
I definitly agree that senario is more believable compared to say the traditional TCB stories. Still its hard to really say what would happen for sure since this all academic. Though I would say if this was Chatoyance's Universe I would say the tradition is absolutly viable. Personally I still don't like these conversion bureau stories at all. They just make both or our societies look bad.
Cancel
Send