Chapter 5: Of the past
Celestia gave a huff as she walked back into her castle. Apparently her worries had been rash, it seemed that captain Bluefire would not be the one to kill Barsley... No, Barsley would probably manage that part by himself just fine. A sigh escaped princess Celestia as she ruffled her wings, she would need another bath. Still, the fact that the human had found a friend in the captain so quickly put a small smile on her lips. It proved to her that no matter how different their races were, they could still coexist in harmony... if certainly not a very tranquil one.
As she continued her way through the castle though, she was surprised to see professor Henningston stand in one of the hallways holding the countless portraits of equestrian history. None of her subjects came to this part of the castle these days, even though it was never closed to the public. Years of grief and sorrow had left a shadow on this part of their own history and they were still frightful to look back. And yet, here stood a human, his brow furrowed as he silently observed one of the portraits.
Celestia did not need to see the painting to know which one it was, she herself had stood before it countless times in the past years. Not one day passed when she did not stand in front of it... wondering, contemplating... and grieving her loss, her failure. Many times she had wanted to take it down, but had always found herself unable to do so; feeling it would be unjust to forget her... her sister... Princess Luna.
Henningston took notice of Celestia's presence and turned to face her, the countless wrinkles in his face illuminated by the sunlight falling in through one of the mosaic windows as he watched her with an almost stoic expression. For the first time since Celestia had come to know him, she saw the age in his face... and it saddened her.
"Princess." his voice sounded softer than usual, almost tired, "Did Barsley make another one of his insane contraptions come to life?" he raised an eyebrow as he saw her dirty coat.
"A very loud one at that, though captain Bluefire does not seem to mind." Celestia replied with a small smile.
Henningston gave a short nod and a small chuckle before returning his attention back to the portrait, "Such are the gifts of youth." he paused, "I took the time for a short stroll through the castle before dinner when I stumbled upon this hallway... I hope my presence here is not illicit, is it?"
Celestia shook her head softly as she stepped up to him, "It is not. This hallway is one of many holding the history of our race. Anyone is allowed to search our past, nothing should be forgotten..." she stopped next to him and looked at the portrait, "No matter how grief it is."
Henningston was quiet for another moment, "Is it her?" his question hung in the air.
"It is... when both of us were still young." Celestia let her gaze wander over the portrait, the little foal laughing at her from it almost too much for her to bear, "And before words unspoken tore us apart."
"I understand..." Henningston's voice sounded heavy, "We... we heard rumors, and tales of what happened... and even after we met you in person, we were still doubtful of how much truth the stories carried... and of how we should stand before you..." he turned away from the painting and started to walk again, Celestia following him with quiet steps.
"When we first heard of these lands, we were amazed by the stories that found their way to us... Magic, to think that such wonders could exist..." he turned to her with a contemplating gaze, "And tales of a living god... Can you imagine what that meant for us? For a race that has never had magic nor a god that answered their prayers? For us, who always believed in logic and reason, to be presented with the one thing that simply shattered all principles of the science we held so dear?"
Henningston shook his head, "How many centuries did we look up at the stars wondering if there was more than we could perceive when the answer was down here all along. We always pictured gods as omniscient beings... endless in their wisdom and without flaws, distant and uncaring at the feeble problems of us mortals. And the more we delved into our search for knowledge, the more we lost our vision for these things."
Celestia searched his face, "And now, that you have met me?" a sad smile appeared on her lips, "What do you think of us omniscient beings with all of our flaws now?"
Henningston stopped and took a long, searching look at her features, "I believe, that you have a good heart. Carry your burdens, but do not do so alone. Your subjects love you with all of their heart. And just as they feel grief over your loss, so do I and even that fool in the courtyard if he knew... We all make mistakes, but we grow with them and all wounds will heal with time." he gave a short bow before turning to leave her, "I am certain that one day, your sister will return to you. Until then, I will pray for your well being."
Celestia watched him as he walked away from her, feeling strangely moved by his words. At the same time though, she couldn't help but whisper, "Who will I pray to?"
Down in the courtyard, Barsley and Bluefire could be heard over the roar of the engine, screaming "God of Thunder!" for all the world to hear as Barsley revved the engine to its peak capacities.
From the window above, Celestia shook her head with a small smile, "Us omniscient beings..." she turned her head upwards and searched the evening sky, it would be time for her to lower the sun soon, "If only you could be here to meet them..." Celestia spoke quietly, "If only you could be here, by my side again."
A small explosion caused her to look down again, it seemed that the engine had not been able to withstand both Barsley's and captain Bluefire's enthusiasm. As smoke started to rise from the charred remains Henningston could be seen storming out of the castle, already shouting at the still-grinning Barsley while Bluefire wobbled from side to side.
Celestia's smile grew as she watched the three and the smoking wreckage below, "If only you could meet these strange yet wonderful people..."
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A good and sad chapter
Best chapter yet, short but what did with the talk... it is a good question, what would humans think about the Sisters and who does a goddess pray to?
I'd imagine that it would be like discovering Relativity. "Awesome, what an incredible new discovery! Time to adjust our views and do more science!"
But... they are not omniscient. That's... kinda the whole point here, yeah?
Wait, who is he going to pray to?
Why is she saying "us" here if she isn't one of the hypothetical omniscient beings she is talking about?
I find it kinda silly, the whole discussion of godhood and omniscience since the Princessess are (canonically) neither goddesses nor omniscient. And from an in-story perspective, even if they do get the label of "goddess", if they are neither omnipotent nor omniscient... What value is the label of "goddess" anyway? In this case it is basically being used to describe individuals that are more powerful and longer-lived than the average... I mean, Celestia is more powerful than the average unicorn but not more powerful than say, a dozen working together (ex: unicorns used to work together to move the sun and moon). She is capable of feats beyond that of any one "mortal" but not beyond a relatively small group of "mortals" working together, so...
I dunno, it just seems to silly to angst and such about "godhood" when it is a pretty meaningless term in this case.
Very good chapter. It went from a humorous chapter to a very sad and insightful one, and it really got the gears turning in my cranium. I must now contemplate life for a few hours while enjoying jasmine tea. Why jasmine? Because it starts with a 'j.' Tea doesn't get much cooler than that.
3066271
What if gods prayed to gods that were above them, who in turn prayed to even higher gods? Or maybe they pray to themselves...
3066270
Is that... is that avatar from that one SexuaLobster video on YT 0_o?
3066447 Perhaps, do you want it to be?
3066447
Or perhaps they pray the lowliest of beings?
3066457
After doing my 100,000th curl with an obscenely heavy weight, it seems that I tweaked something.
3066460
I seem to recall reading some literature that brought forth the idea that gods derive their powers from their subjects and followers. Maybe they find solace and hope inside their followers as well?
3066463 ...Okay?
3066469
I'm not sure how common that is, but in the Discworld series that is true. And if it's true then they are gods worth following
media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz7gm7Qcwc1ql9kdt.gif
3066488
That's what I was thinking of-- haven't read anything pertaining to Discworld in a long time, so I'm a bit cloudy on it.
3066485
Virginia is OP.
i can just imagine their 'mad scientist grins'
3066520
What the hell man...
That was.... fun
3066648
SexuaLobster, Oneyng, and PsychicPebbles have some pretty messed up stuff. However, it's also incredibly entertaining.
Can you give us a timeframe? The humans are in end of XIX, beginning of XX century, but when in MLP verse it takes place? It's obvious that's before S1, but how far?
3069090 about a hundred years after Luna's banishment. Can't really say which century I'd put it into though...
3069305 Thanks, that will do. And placing time frames comparisons between MLP and real world is pointless, as its all so mixed up that its frankly impossible.
3066394
Celestia is being facetious- she knows and the proffessor know she is not omniscient, she is just pointing out hwa far away from divinity she is. Also, you did catch the "god of thunder" line, no? They either prey to Zeus or the ever holy jet engine
3066666
Five words...
Dance. Of. The. Man. Whore
3066394
According to what?
As far as we know, it could have taken ten, or a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand unicorns to accomplish the task. It could have taken most of the entire adult population a good five minutes of work to raise the sun.
The show has never even given a ballpark figure.
That, and raising the sun would be the minimum possible magical power she possesses. Not her maximum.
3070541
Ah, I love that guy so much. Then there's Gusan (Gooseman? Forgot) and the Pleasure Island videos. Walrus-Crab-Killer-Instinct-of-Man thing is OP.
3066394
3071293
Keep in mind that Twilight had trouble lifting an ursa minor, whereas Celestia moves a giant, ultra-dense star that weights billions(I believe it's more, but I'm assuming the usra minor weights a bout as much as a large grizzly bear, which is very arbritary) of times more than the ursa minor every day without even showing the slightest amount of strain. Then you have to keep in mind Luna, who manipulates trillions of other stars (which are much farther away) as well as the moon without straining herself either.
Considering just that, I think it's safe to say that Celestia is up on the god-scale (she pretty much does the same thing Apollo did in Greek Mythology. Heck, I might even argue that she's like Ra assuming the phoenix represents her rebirth after that boat trip or w/e the lore was.)
3071293
I suppose that it is possible that a large number of unicorns were required, but it would still be a finite amount. In other words, while she is more powerful than any single unicorn she is not more powerful than an infinite number of unicorns or even all the unicorns that were around in the past. Furthermore, she was defeated in battle by Queen Chrysalis and could not stand against Discord so she clearly isn't omnipotent, and she was able to be fooled by both so she isn't omniscient.
3071845
This may or may not be true. You are assuming that their sun is in any way like our sun, something that I doubt very much. It seems much more likely to me that their Sun isn't any think like a real-life Sun but instead resembles a sun from mythology (i.e. a chariot or a hole in the sky). If their Sun is like our Sun and a large number of unicorns can move it, even something like ten thousand or more, then the energy requirements involved would mean that each and every unicorn has the potential to end all life on the planet. So either their Sun IS an utterly massive ball of plasma like our own and all unicorns are walking weapons of mass destruction and everything got severely messed up whenever someone screwed around with it (including Discord and Nightmare Moon), or their Sun isn't anything like our own and so we cannot use our knowledge of OUR Sun to estimate how powerful Celestia is.
Pretty sure her official powers just involve the moon. If they DO involve all the stars in the sky then she is either ridiculously OP in comparison to Celestia or (like what I suspect the case to be with Celestia and their Sun) their stars are not anything like our stars, in which case we can't estimate their power levels at all.
I suppose you could argue that she is an Ancient Greek level of goddess, but I still think that is kind of silly since the Ancient Greek gods really weren't all that powerful if you think about it, and they certainly weren't omniscient nor omnipotent. Hell, it has been shown in this very story that Celestia isn't omniscient, and the show has shown that she isn't omnipotent. I think the problem I have with the term "god" or "goddess" is that it is so often associated with the Abrahamic God these days. The label of "God" tends to cause people to think of an immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, mentally and morally superior being, while Celestia appears to be only one of these things.
Also, Word of God is that neither of the princesses are goddesses, and even if they were the term in this case seems kinda useless to me. It effectively means "long-lived and incredibly powerful beings", a description that also fits wizards, superheroes, and the like. Are they more powerful than the average pony? Yes. But not infinitely more powerful. Are they longer-lived? Yes, but not necessarily immortal. Can they be defeated in combat? Yes. Can they be tricked? Yes. Do they have their own thoughts and feelings and worries and insecurities and are effectively mentally like "mortals" in every meaningful way? Yes. So what is the point of calling them goddesses or calling attention to that term if it is effectively meaningless?
3070242
I suppose that explanation makes the most sense.
3072224
Honestly, why are we talking about the power levels of fictional characters? There's so little to go on, that we have no actual basis to go upon, so we'll keep refuting each other while building our own lore at the same time. Also, it seems like she was being a little sarcastic about her abilities as well in the chapter. (GBRK was probably right, lol.) (this is just interesting to think about now, so don't think I'm firing my weapons at you or anything xD)
Good point, but allow me to retort:
The only reason the movement of our sun would kill us is because that'd imply the Earth itself would stop rotating, thus canceling the magnetic field and baking us all in lethal amounts of cosmic radiation. However, Equestria is apparently stationary, and thus we can imply that either they don't have cosmic radiation (doubt-able, because light is EM radiation, so they most certainly do have the capability for gamma and cosmic radiation) or that Equestria has a self-generating magnetic field for some reason (whether it be Celestia that maintains it or not.) and thus, the movement of the sun would not likely cause them harm (misread your comment's first paragraph somehow, but I'll leave that there just in case). Also, you could postulate that the unicorns themselves amplified their powers through the use of some catalyst (or perhaps unicorns working in tandem increases their power exponentially?) or another device, or even made use of an Equestria-based phenomenon.
You're also implying that magic (which is very arbitrary, so the fact that we're discussing it means we'll disagree no matter what) works in the sense of ENERGY --> SPELL --> EFFECT, whereas certain magics might be more effective when used in a group (exponentially so) or may be impossible for a unicorn to channel through his/her horn without causing instant death. (like trying to pass a huge current through a tiny wire; it doesn't end very well.)
Also, what reason is there to assume there sun is different than ours? Equestria follows the same physics our world adheres to (for the most part-- Pegasi, Pinkie, and everything magical tend to disregard them whenever they want to) whether it be gravity or simple engineering (trains and such.) No matter what, a giant orb that outputs enough light to illuminate a large portion of the world at any point requires TREMENDOUS energy to do so, and is not to be taken lightly.
Time to apologise on some of my points: I forgot to add in a "common fandom-based thought" tag on Luna's powers, as that's strictly in the realm of the fandom, so that's my fault on that one. I also have to agree with you on our definition of a god being more Abrahamic in nature.
Anyways, I can agree with you on what you said, though: she's definitely more durable, and definitely more long-lived. I also recall Faust (is that who you were referring to?) saying that her version of Celestia and Luna weren't goddesses, but perhaps she was speaking of them in an Abrahamic sense.
Honestly, why are we talking about the power levels of fictional characters? There's so little to go on, that we have no actual basis to go upon, so we'll keep refuting each other while building our own lore at the same time. Also, it seems like she was being a little sarcastic about her abilities as well in the chapter. (GBRK was probably right, lol.)
3072224
(This is going to be short and to the point, and probably worded wrong, as I had a big long winded reply eaten up by my laptop running out of power. And I don't want to . For some reason, it decided that 10% power means SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING!)
MLP is mostly High Fantasy. Gods and Goddesses of High Fantasy don't need to be omnipotent, omniscient or omnipresent. It's more of a label for a vastly powerful, immortal being. One that may or may be unkillable. (I probably should have mentioned that the omniscient thing was her making a joke.)
The fight with Chrysalis can be viewed in a different light, as I've written before on Reddit before here.
Celestia didn't engage Discord. But neither did Discord engage Celestia. Reasons could include possible collateral damage on Celestia's side, potential risk of losing on Discord's, etc. We don't know, because they never engaged one another.
Remember that Celestia cast a spell on the Elements that prevented Discord from interacting with them while he was being rehabilitated.
My point is that there are different ways to look at the things that occur in the show. Different people view what happens in the show in different lights.
So while you're correct. So am I. So is he. So is that guy over there. Because beyond what the show explicitly says, all of it is headcanon.
(Now if you'll excuse me, I've gotta figure out why the stupid laptop isn't booting anymore.)
3073835>>3074311
The thing is, in this specific chapter Celestia was discussing with Henningston about what it is like to be an omniscient goddess... Which we have seen in the story itself that she ISN'T omniscient. She isn't really any different from the rest of her ponies or any other mortal in any way besides her increased magical power and lifespan.
I personally think that interpretation is bullshit. It requires a lot of background assumptions that don't have any actual basis to them besides fanon and wishful thinking. It just doesn't make any sense to me to look at clear evidence for one thing and then go "well maybe what ACTUALLY happened was something completely different, as long as we assume a lot of things without any hard evidence to support them". It seems to me like that's just taking a conclusion that you want and building evidence to support it instead of looking at the evidence and drawing conclusions based on it. Chrysalis clearly defeated Celestia. Either Chrysalis was buffed to "goddess" level powers at that point or Celestia does not and never HAD "goddess" level powers. If it is the former, said "goddess" level powers aren't all that impressive, and if it is the latter...
Basically, I don't think her power level is anywhere NEAR what a lot of fanon suggests. And even if it was, I don't think it gives her an Omniscient Morality License like a lot of fans seem to think. She and the rest of the Alicorns basically just like any other pony, just (finitely) more powerful and longer lived (though not necessarily immortal).
3074504
Yep, because posture and facial expressions mean nothing in a visual media.
i.imgur.com/iNMH2jC.jpg
Chrysalis's face scrunched up, shoulders slouched, teeth gritted, and visually exerting effort.
i.imgur.com/g6fpzoo.jpg
Compared to Celestia's ears in a neutral position, face in a scowl of annoyance.
I can claim this to be clear evidence as well. It's hardly bullshit using every part of a scene to get an idea of what happened within it. Not to mention her shock afterwards that she won. "...even more powerful than Celestia!"
Especially when the animators put in the effort to give the characters those attributes during the scene.
I'm not telling you what to believe with your headcanon, but please remember that it's just that. It's your headcanon.
Other people have their own headcanon based on their interpretation of the scenes, based off just as much canon as yours.
Nice chapter.
3074311
Check the battery. Sometimes the latches that hold it in place or the metal battery strip become unconditioned and wear-off. If not, it may be bricked or too old.
3074504
We just need Season 4 to descend from the heavens and show us a true display of skills. We have no magic-lore to understand just how difficult it really is canon-wise.
"Love conquers all." Remember that the writers love to use cliche phrases to show why X wins over Y, despite normally being outclassed. That's one of the main issues with children's shows: adult logic is sometimes stuffed in the back of a car and driven into a lake.
I agree with you on the omniscience thing-- she's not all knowing, but I do believe she has the ability to see a few things (Luna can dream-walk, so can Celestia mind-walk or foretell the future somewhat?)
I'm going to have to go with Shader on the Chrysalis debate though. Watching that scene over and over again, you notice that Chrysalis is obviously taxing herself and exerting full force, whereas Celestia just has narrowed eyes and seems calm and collected. Coupled with the Chrysalis' shocked tone after she won, you can see that even Chrysalis had her doubts about beating the sun monarch.
3075227>>3074684
Personally, it seems to me that even though one looked calm and collected and the other going all out, Chrysalis still won. That is, I think that neither of them expected Chrysalis to have been powered up to such an extent that she was and so it caught both of them off-guard when it turned out that Chrysalis had actually managed to surpass Celestia in power (at least temporarily). That said, I have to admit that we simply cannot know either way at this point.
Agreed. I'm willing to table the discussion on the grounds that we do not yet have enough information to come to a decisive conclusion.
3075338
We should still discuss this a lot though. It's helped me formulate 3 different world scenarios so far, as well as countless additions to lore in my head. Discussions really help.
There has always been one thing that has bugged me about these human in Equestria stories. I understand that Equestria is a different world with different rules, and functions under different laws of nature than earth. But everything that makes our bodies work evolved on Earth, and therefore operates only in relation to he rules of Earth. If I went to Equestria, and the rules of nature were really as loopy in relation to Earth as they are depicted in this story, then my human body could not survive there. It would be like trying to play a game of go fish with the rules of basketball, it simply would not work. There is a way to get around this though, and that is to turn any human who enters Equestria into a pony, or some other Equestrian life form, so that their bodies can function in relation to the changed rules of the new world.
If the human body can live in Equestria, then the laws of Equestria can't really be that much different from the laws of Earth, or human life there would be impossible.
3087967
PFM.
Well, this is amusing thus far. Though the advancement of the humans is a bit odd. Motor vehicles without heavier-than-air flight? Oh well, different world, different advancement rate. If nothing else, Civilization taught us that scientific advancement can be a bit of a crapshoot.
In any case, I look forward to more. Especially the bits where Celestia puts her hoof down. Diplomatic backlash or not, I don't like seeing her just act like a doormat to these madmen.
3257993 Civilization 5: Tanks vs bows and arrows. That's basically what it comes down to at certain points.
And then Henningston gets into philosophy. I can dig it, though in Celestia's case she straddles being a living goddess since hers is more overwhelming power than any omniscience, omnipotence or omnipresence. Extremely overwhelming power, though, if the scientists ever teach her how much power it must take to raise the sun like she does.
you don't believe in brains but still pray? stupid.
just a good heart is not enough, you still need a head on your shoulders.
mistakes are good, they make us better.