I'm afraid I have an important announcement to make.

Twilight's Library is closed until further notice. This is more major then closing the incoming folder. As far as I'm concerned, the entire group is closed.

After all the recent drama which I talked about in my blog yesterday, and the resignation of Skeeter the Lurker as admin and Lambent Dreams as contributor, we came up with some radical new ideas for the group. What we had in mind would amount to a total reboot, and a major change in the functionality of the group. I thought it was a great idea, and several of us have been hammering out the details.

But then twilight-the-pony resigned. It was something that had building for a good while, and wasn't due to the recent drama, though making the decision was triggered by it.

This was a pretty major loss, but we'd been continuing to make plans. And when I say radical plans, I mean radical. Our new structure was going to be closer to Seattle's Angels then anything else. I'd also promoted Winter_Solstice in there, which was long overdue.

Then today, Sir Truffles resigned. He had a pretty harsh post with it, and I'm not saying a lot of it wasn't accurate. He's called for the group just to be closed permanently.

At this point, I'm sick of the drama going on around this group. Absolutely all my free time the last few days has been dedicated to the group. I really need a break from all of this, and while I was pretty excited about the direction the new changes were going in, which I think would lead to a far less negative group as a whole and actually have an environment where being on the the staff was actually fun and not a second unpaid job that people yell at you for, I'm just not sure I shouldn't jsut leave it closed.

So here we are. I'm too close to the issue right now, and I need some time to relax and not think about anything regarding this group. I'm closing it and leaving it closed for a few weeks. I may still work on the plans for rebuilding during that time, since I actually even have several threads written up for it, and have been playing with what it'd look like. It's not that hard to find, if you know where the staff forums are.

The fanfics left in the incoming folder have been moved to a holding folder, since even if the group reopens, I won't have one in the new group. I'm still trying to decide what's going to happen to those. I may do them myself, or see if some of my staff are willing to process the last few. I'd hate to just delete them when people fought to get them in there, but I don't even really want to look at the rejection folder right now.

So this is where we stand. Twilight's Library is no more. Give me a few weeks to determine if I'm replanting where the original was, opening a new replacement library, or just mothballing it, and whether I'll be the one to run it. I'm not deleting the group, and you can all keep your ribbons. I'll even put one on that one story I was asked about a while ago.

Oh, and if you contacted most of the staff with pms about how your fanfic needs to be reaccepted, and your undying hate for twilight-the-pony, I'm sorry, it's not a priority right now.

--arcum42

3906355

This seems fitting.

This is not a goodbye.

~Skeeter The Lurker

3906355 Wow...
Just a suggestion...
You could hand over the vacant admin spots to willing group members, or, in an even more dire circumstance, just turn over authority all together. If you need to lighten the load, then this seems to be the ideal next step towards recooperation. Many hooves make light work. I am sure that there are plenty of people who would kill to admin in Twilight's Library.

(I am not one of them, though.)

About time, I suppose. This hasn't been working particularly well.

And just for the record, not everyone has exclusive access to what's going on with the admins. You haven't been doing a great job of being transparent with your decisions. Your staff forum (how is that thing even supposed to be open to readers?), your secondary accounts, your roster changes. That has not been communicated in a way that commoners would ever hear of unless they check the main page and a few others on at least a weekly basis (which is too much to ask).

Drama or not, you're still the admins. So for some people, this decision is the first time they've heard of what happened, and for some people, well, you could have just answered properly instead of putting it here.

Hopefully the next group, if there will ever be one, which there probably won't, does not make the same mistakes. This one did far too many. I'm surprised that you are closing, but it's more of a pleasant surprise than not. It's really been about time. This wasn't working. At all.

3906367

The problem is wayyyy more than just that.

~Skeeter The Lurker

And this is the first time I've heard anything is wrong. The idea of a group this central to the site going down is ... Shocking, to be honest. I pray the Lord shows the proper way.

3906355 If you do decide to continue Twilight's Library in some fashion, and you need some assistance, I would be willing to offer assistance, if you need.

It does please me that you have not decided that you will delete the group, because I have found some excellent stories within for my reading pleasure.

3906370 I guess I wouldn't know.
I am a noob level admin.

Oh wow. Guess it's official then...

Anyway, closed or not, I'm glad to have been a part of the group. I've made a lot of friends through the Skype chat. It's been life changing.

So, thanks for what you endured for so long. All ten of my ribboned stories will continue to bear them proudly.

3906412

Fortunate that the Skype group won't be changed.

~Skeeter The Lurker

I checked out of the drama train not too long after the initial dust up occurred over the 'Diamonds' fic. So, I was very much unaware that things had gotten this out of hand.

First, I'll say thank you to everyone that has ever served on the TL staff for their time and dedication. This certainly could not have been an easy task, and to keep at it for so long is an achievement by itself. Again, my most sincere thanks.

Second, should a 'Next Gen' group spring up in its place, I would like to at least throw my name in the hat to learn more about the ways I might be able to help - even if it is in a small way.

Third - and this is purely on a personal note - I have reviewed the many blog posts and such that were linked in the original post here. I'll just say that whatever quibbles folks had about TL's standards for approval, I find it hard to believe that any group's standards could rise to the level of 'ivory tower insanity' that is seemingly now EQD's trademark. (and TL never even came close that that, imo)

Anyway, thank you again to TL's staff. This group will be missed.

-GMP

Whelp..

I guess I can feel...relieved? I guess? Since I don't have to constantly be logged in so I could submit

I'll never know if my .jpg would be of quality enough, but I'll pretend, for what it's worth. That's all we can do.

Pretend.

If you drink a lot of gut rot, then squint real hard at your description, the ribbon appears

Well, there is not much to say here. Drama has occurred in, tension has built up on a group that wanted to be a status giver, but received more perceived worth than it was capable of catering to. It was inundated with writers all trying to achieve the coveted status, and had not the resources to please all. Due to a combination of unfortunate events, lacking time, and misunderstandings, it has finally broken.

But I have faith that it shall return in some form or another. A quality fanfiction promotion service will always be in high demand, and there are plenty of users willing to help construct, organize, and maintain such a service. The only matter to take care of is the selection of such users, and if not, users will select themselves and create the service under another banner. Whatever happens, it will work itself out, because there are many among us that would be honored to be a part of making sure it does.

Until later, dear friends,
PiercingSight

3906355

Goodnight everypony. *salutes*

3906355

Well that stinks... that TL is closing its shelves, sure, but worse is that it became such a burden on the folks running it. I've run my fair share of guilds in MMOs, so I know how depressing and stressful it can be when you just plain get sick of something that started out as a labor of love,

Props to arcum, Skeeter, Truffles and everypony else who helped make TL what it was... which as far as I'm concerned is the place I could always trust to scratch whatever 'wanna read X' itch I had on any given day,

Frankly I am none to pleased with the idea of retrofitting Twilights Library into a Seattle's angel's like organization, it'd make the entire group glacial and unapproachable.

I hope you come up with something new and innovative during your time off though.

Have a nice break.

3906501

Actually, Seattle's Angels is just the closest comparison I can make, and it occurred to me after coming up with the central idea. I'm not actually being directly inspired by them in this case.

3906450
I'll keep it in mind. And honestly, TL was never supposed to have standards as high as that. If the reboot happens, they won't be.

3906388
I'll keep that in mind, too.

3906475
[youtube=7rOMGIbY-9s]

--arcum42

3906501

a Seattle's angel's like organization, it'd make the entire group glacial and unapproachable.

We're glacial and unapproachable?

Goodnight, sweet prince.

3906501
If "like Seattle's Angels" is meant to suggest that the admins select the fics by their own criteria, and they do not accept self-recommended fics, then I would also mention that this is a very similar model to what the Royal Canterlot Library has been successfully using as well.

Allowing self-recommendation, like EQD and the old TL, forces the admins to drink from the firehose, and it simply is not sustainable.

3906573

By the setup of your organization? Yes, I'd say so. This isn't a bash at you guys or anything, but its clear the reviewing process takes a lot of time on you guy's part and makes progress pretty slow. This isn't helped by the fact that nobody can actually say "well here is my best work, if you could have a look sometime that'd be nice" and have to rely on fans to do so, which, if you consider that Seattle's Angels movement is about highlighting unnoticed good fiction, is incredibly unlikely to happen ever, simply because most people don't think ahead like that.

Hence, glacial and unapproachable.

3906573
You also smell bad.

Damn, it actually happened.

3906607
I blame Pav.

3906615 I blame him, too.

I didn't see this turn in a long shot.

3906588

For what it's worth, if anything, we'd be doing less reviewing of the stories, and more focus on "Is this a good enjoyable fanfic without a bunch of issues ruining my immersion?". No rejections at all, just stories we don't happen to add.

At least, if we keep going in the direction I was headed.

Similar methods to Seattle's Angels in some ways, but not the same.

--arcum42

3906628

That sounds fine, basically new measures of quality control then?

To be frank, I'd be happy just as long as you keep it at a reasonably steady stream, I like this group for finding fiction and I don't really wanna see it reduced to a tiny trickle of stories.

I do also understand that this group gets mobbed like pigeons over scattered bread when the incoming folder opens, so its understandable.

Anyway, I hope whatever new system you install works more effectively than the old one.
Also, once again, have a nice break from the stress, you guys deserve it.

3906615
Agreed. That guy really needs to learn to control his dog.

3906475

That was also the start of the movie. And the book, if memory serves (it's been a few years since I read it.) The adventure isn't over. A new one is beginning. I'm interested in seeing where this one takes us.

3906700
I'm very much in agreement.

If you weren't having fun or at least getting some level of enjoyment out of it, it's okay not to continue! I'm glad you all were able to come to that conclusion and I hope you find fun things you like doing more.

I know it's easy to look at this thread and feel bad it didn't work out, but you all deserve to be commended for all of your hard work and dedication that you have been doing for so long.

Good job arcum42, Sir Truffles, Skeeter the Lurker, Lambent Dreams, twilight-the-pony, and anyone else I forgot. Take a break, enjoy life, find something else you love doing, maybe self-publish an ebook of something not pony related on Amazon, whatever floats your boat.

3906588
I think you're missing the forest for the trees, if I'm using that phrase correctly.

If I'm reading you right, you're arguing that an author can have their magnum opus unnoticed by Seattle's Angels, because it hasn't already been noticed (at least in a substantially positive way) by others, and as such said story is doomed to be unnoticed if the author cannot recommend it themselves. Of course, this creates a feedback loop (or lack thereof, if I can make a pun) where the unnoticed story has no readers to recommend it, and thus remains unnoticed.

However, this ignores the fact that for the most part, we really don't care who the author is when we decide upon which stories to review in our features: the guy could have 3 followers or 3000 for all I know, but I don't pay attention to that. We don't really care about who we're featuring when we're picking our stories, only the stories themselves. So if we're hurting someone's feelings by not picking their unnoticed magnum opus, it's not necessarily our fault. When you say people can't ask for feedback on their story (which is not true; anyone can ask anyone for feedback), but these are reviews that go public—site-wide. We're not working for the individual, but the community at large. To try and focus attention on a single author sort of goes against us trying to focus on the story.

It's definitely a shame if some guy's magnum opus hasn't received attention, but at the end of the day, we aren't the service for that. We're glacial and unapproachable, as you say, which I suppose is true given what you've said. But that's just it: Seattle's Angels isn't about helping authors, and whatever bit of attention authors receive from our featured reviews is just a byproduct. We're in it to help readers find stories to read.

If what you're looking for is feedback, I implore you to check out reviewing groups authors themselves can go to for direct feedback, like WRITE. If what you're looking for is notice, there's plenty of specific and tailored groups out there you can submit your story to. There's also places like Equestria Daily and The Royal Guard.

It's all about finding balance between dedicating attention to the individual and to the whole, and there's no real line in the sand for any group to draw. Ambiguity is a cruel mistress, but she can also be kind. All I can say to people who want attention from Seattle's Angels but haven't gotten any is to, well, write. Keep writing and somebody's bound to take notice. Prospect doesn't come on a silver platter, and honestly, I find it better for somebody to experience that with fanfiction than, say, marriage or running for mayor's office.

But this topic shouldn't be about Seattle's Angels. Now's about Twilight's Library. If you ever want to talk to us, feel free to ask any of us via PM anything. But for the moment, let's keep the topic relevant.

The group I so heavily relied on? The group that featured me before EQD would give me a chance? The group that gave me the confidence to continue for long enough that finally EQD would accept me out of pure dogged determination, and probably just to get me to go away?

Yeah, no.

I don't accept this. I refuse to accept this so lightly, so timidly.

Here's my resume. In whatever fashion this group considers returning in, I'm throwing my hat into the ring to assist in whatever way I can. If I'd known it had gotten this bad, I'd have walked in sooner, but... c'est la vie.

Or perhaps I should say c'est la mort.

3906368

I don't think that's quite it. There are many problems that have simply grown too large recently, but the cause is more complex than blaming any one party.

The issue isn't really the group itself. That hasn't changed much in the time I've been here. The issue is more of changing perceptions of the group.

When the group was smaller (I joined when there were under a thousand members. Can you even imagine that now? I can't!), it was just this decent-sized group awarding recognition to those who wrote some good fics. It didn't have to be great. It just had to be an enjoyable little read.

However, the group got bigger, and the promise of delivering quality stories to a thousand, two, three, and eventually four thousand people came with increased expectations. That is a lot of people to show our recommendations to, and that brings a certain expectation that our stories have to be more worthy of showing to all those people. That also brought more eyes watching every rejection, so every not-bad story that got rejected, even on a soft reject, got more attention. There have been a few enjoyable fics that have had to be let down due to being too controversial, for instance. That probably made it seem like more "good, not great" stories were being rejected than ever. (Which may have been the case. More users means more volume. It's not the case as a percentage, however.) So even though our own standards didn't change much, there was this perception that we were aiming ever-higher, looking for better and better stories while turning up our nose at ones that would have been gladly added a few submission cycles earlier. Updating our standards was a well-intentioned mistake, in that regard. We tried to clarify the old rules, but instead, the more extensive and in-depth explanation furthered and cemented this view that our standards were increasing.

I think that's why we've had people complain about at least one recent addition, and probably others as well. They were the edge cases of old, the ones that were enjoyable, but not necessarily flawless or something that everyone "gets". It's probably also the cause for a lot of unnecessary author angst. I approve over a third of submissions sent my way (lowered by handling most of these edge cases), and I probably have one of the lowest approval percentages. We probably approve 40-50% of submissions, which is about what we've always done, and which is far less exclusive than EqD or the Royal Guard. Yet people somehow view us as approaching that level of pickiness.

I suppose it's a lack of any admin updates, but frankly, there haven't been many of those. There has been no need. The staff forum has had little to discuss until all these controversies sprang up, and what there has been has been quite mundane. Before December, when things started to boil over, there were discussions of things like when admins would be available for opening the incoming folder, cleaning up the front page, and checking in to see who's active among staff. None of these things require group input. (Well, maybe the front page thing, but that was more along the lines of trimming the dead groups.) As far as I can recall, we've always promptly updated the group on staff changes, so I'm not sure why transparency is being discussed as an issue. The staff forum isn't designed for group involvement because it's the tedious behind-the-scenes stuff. No one would really be interested, and if they are, well... the group's open to all passersby.

I think the biggest issue of all, however, has been the incoming folder. It's a chore to slog through, and with over 4,000 members, there is no fair way of giving everyone a chance without building a year-long queue. If you've looked in any dead formerly large groups, you'll note that they tend to have been buried under such a flood. Incoming simply isn't feasible anymore. That's why we've been contemplating new ways of doing what we do. It's not perfect. No system will ever be perfect with so many authors pushing for spots. But we will work on it, and hopefully we can emerge from this hiatus with a better, smoother system that makes everyone happier.

And yes, remember that this is a hiatus. We're basically just regrouping and deciding where we're headed now. We aren't dead yet!

3906745

You? Helping in this?

Maybe we've a chance.

~Skeeter The Lurker

3906806 And moi :D

Yip's throwing his hat in this one hopefully

3906801 To be honest, I wish you (from here on our TL will be referred to as you, because I'm dramatic) were dead. This whole system is completely ass-backwards, if you ask me. The point of the matter is simply that Titanium Dragon, in one of the other threads, was right - the Library served no purpose as a Library. 6k stories? Are you serious? It's not very encouraging to even try to look through them. You aren't the Royal Guard (you don't have buareaucratic firewalls on every step of admission), you aren't Equestria Daily (you don't have Great Walls of China and/or of sight-impaired pre-readers), you're not Seattle's Angels (the amount of beds you have to cross in order to get in there is beyond human comprehension), you aren't TRCL (you aren't all of that combined and with site posts). There is no call for looking through your folders, even if they are what you were originally made for. There was one thing you were good at - contributor and admin feedback.

As such, some of your rules went compeltely against what you should have been going towards. The idiotic idea that admins can add whatever they want, which wouldn't have mattered at all if you realized your strengths before (no need to add it anywhere if you do reviews, is there?), for instance. Or the mess with your folders - I'm not even talking about the incoming folders, I'm talking about main stories (who even designed these divisions?). Twilight's Library had long ago quit being a library, and even then it wasn't a particularly good one, and there will never be one as long as the aforementioned groups exists. You were a glorified review group. One that was above others because it was operational (due to the few people who gave a damn misunderstanding their collegues' lack of pulse), and because one was guaranteed a look-over of their story unless it was absolute tosh.

You misunderstand your purpose. You always have misunderstood your purpose. And as long as you keep acting like you're a library and not a collection of reviewers of highly varying quality, you are going to keep having problems. In fact, you are going to keep having problems in any case. It's this misunderstanding that causes people to complain that you're too stringent (and a few other things that I won't mention) - in reality, that is far from the real problem.

The most optimal scenario here is if TL simply never gets reborn. Especially with the way arcum wants to head - which is to say, the exact opposite of where this group should ever go, period.

It'd be all the same if it does, even should you realize your true potential. You can't make people review things. It's as simple as that. People have to want to do that. And the dreadful statistics that the old Library showed in terms of people who simultaneously were on staff and gave half a damn make it clear that they won't want to do that for more than a few times. And then, even the few who are dedicated are very likely to be nowhere near the standard that your Library is supposed to uphold.

You've taken a far bigger bite than any community here, aside from the elitist review groups, can chew. This isn't working. It was tolerable as a source of mini-reviews while you pretended that it did, but not anymore.

3906824 someone's salty

man I love being edgy

3906824

3906855

Well, I'm having a bad enough day, and the group's closed anyways. I banned him.

I'd had about enough with his pm's yesterday and today anyways.

--arcum42

3906860

3906824

you're not Seattle's Angels (the amount of beds you have to cross in order to get in there is beyond human comprehension)

Against my better judgment, I'll bite: Are you making a claim that Seattle's Angels engages in authorial favoritism, and if so, which author/fic? Or was this just baseless libel?

3906890
Oh, don't feel too bad. He said we (RCL) not only pull pay-for-play, but that we also have stupidly high standards no one can ever meet. Which... is a bit self-contradictory, come to think of it. (Also, we've made a very conscious effort to avoiding repeat-featuring authors, and IIRC we've now gone more than a year without ever featuring the same author twice! I am proud of this thing!)

Anyway, I think he's banned now, so he probably won't respond.

3906890
Aren't Elric's captions great?

3906897
Yes, he's banned.

--arcum42

I'm only reading this now because for once I'm reading Fimf in the early morning, so here's a quick comment from someone who isn't any sort of insider (I don't think I ever even read the TL staff forum), just a writer who's grateful to this place for being there for the time that it has been.

Thank you, TL. You meant a surprising amount to me and I'll miss you, even if you are eventually reborn in a different guise. I know it's silly being excited by a little purple rosette, but when you're a writer like me that can be the case. I'm never going to write at Cold in Gardez quality and though maybe one day I might conceivably reach one of the more exclusive groups' quality, I'm nowhere near it yet. Also, much of what I write is too short even to be eligible for EqD (the last fic I had accepted to TL was barely 1.3K words), so that wasn't an option -- but this place gave me somewhere that I felt I could get a fic into, but which I never felt was a foregone conclusion. It felt worthwhile.

I do a little bit of reviewing myself, and some moderating on a non-fic forum elsewhere, so I have at least an inkling of how time-consuming these things can be. I was lucky enough never to have a story rejected by TL, but I did read the rejection thread and I was always surprised by just how detailed the feedback was; my own reviews are almost all one-paragraph affairs and I initially expected TL's to be the same. It must have been a huge amount of work to operate at that level, and it puts into perspective all the complaining most of us (including me) did about the Incoming folder's opening times being so short.

That's enough rambling from me, so thanks again, guys. Especially those of you who accepted my stories. :P Now go and have a good long break. Anyone burning themselves out reading, assessing and writing reviews of My Little Pony fanfiction has gone way above reasonable expectations in any case.

3906355 I'm very sorry. This must have been really awful for you.

EDIT: I'm also just plain sorry. I'll always be grateful to the group for pulling my little stories from the slush pile and featuring a couple of them before I even knew what Twilight's Library was. There are some wonderful, talented, dedicated people who have worked hard for this group. It's made a difference to me, anyway. I don't have much that's useful to say except for being sorry about all the drama and thank you to all of you.

3906897

He said we (RCL) not only pull pay-for-play, but that we also have stupidly high standards no one can ever meet. Which... is a bit self-contradictory, come to think of it.

Not at all. He stated that you need to sleep your way into the RCL, but that you guys have impossibly high standards. Therefore, only the most... gifted authors need apply.

3906903

Thanks, It really has been a rough couple days, with most of my free time consumed by Twilight's Library for about five days now, and this is about the worst point so far.

Funny thing is that if things had gone a bit differently, I might have been offering you a position. We were discussing looking for new staff members once the incoming folder was cleared this time, and your name did come up more than once...

--arcum42

3906908 It's Hearth's Warming, Arcum. Take a nice break and eat some cookies and sing some songs. and you'll feel waaay better.