Batmare Begins
By Batbrony

Reviewed by Asilin

Ah…Batman. How I love thee. Not as great as my love for the Tenth Doctor, but a love just as strong. Even today I get tingles up my spine as I hear your theme song…

Oh. Wait. We’re doing Nolan’s Batman. Awww…

Don’t get me wrong, Batman Begins was great. I love the reboot the movies got and how dark and serious Batman got to be. (Bat nipples anyone?) But it tended to be a bit too wrapped in its own message at times, a failing most comic book movies seem to have.

But we’re not here for my positing on comic book characters or their movies, we’re here for a fic review.
(No, I’m not going into massive background on the crossover material for this because, let’s face it, it’s the goddamn Batman)

The Basics:

Derpy steps into Bruce Wayne’s role as Batman. If you’ve seen Batman Begins, you pretty much know where this is going. ‘Nuff said.

That said, because of the nature of the story, and what has been currently written (all exposition and background), the next section will be presented without spoiler tags. I’m going to be concentrating on how this story differs from the one it’s copying, and would basically have walls of blacked out text, which only looks good in government documents and SCP papers.

So, if you want to read the story without knowing the details first, skip this next section.

The Nitty-Gritty:

The first chapter is delightful. Derpy’s in Manehattan prison for some reason, but is shown to be a powerful fighter simply by completely spazzing. That’s a wonderful subversion of the original story and would’ve made a great read (everybody trying to be serious and Derpy filling the role they all expect her to just by failing THAT HARD).

Unfortunately, that’s not what we get.

What we get is her traveling up to the mountain fortress, making a desperately serious attempt at becoming better and becoming depressed when she can’t, until she finally makes a personal discovery that fixes her derpyness.

We also get a lot, a lot, of back story.

An unfortunate side effect of doing this kind of story is that you will be compared to the original source material. So here’s the base comparison:

Your conflict does not make sense.

Granted, I get the feeling that you haven’t fully extrapolated on the conflict, but we’re six chapters in so, really, we should have a base idea of what the conflict is going to be. All I have is a confused mess of Luna and Celestia being bad because they seemingly betrayed the Order but also a lot of ranting about the cutie marks.

But, wait a minute, Asilin, didn’t Batman Begins take a while to get to the real conflict?

Well, yes and no. In Batman, the first 45-50 minutes are spent establishing the related internal and external conflicts. The internal conflict is with Bruce. Does he really want vengeance or justice? How can he satisfy his need for both? This is quickly represented by the talking points of his memories (a kind family/father, the lawyer friend, the harsh confrontation of what ails the city) against the talking points of Ra’s al Ghul (spoilers? Bah) into becoming a physical force for justice which segued into their overall plot: literally destroy what they view as evil, with Gotham being top of the list.

45-50 minutes of a two hour movie means about 3/8ths of narrative were spent on establishing background and conflict (along with training montage). Extrapolated from that, even if you wrap up all of this in, say, two more chapters, you’re looking at 22 chapters total. And that’s assuming you’re able to keep pace with the rest of the movie.

But the pacing’s not even my biggest concern. Mine is how actionable your conflict is. Uprising against Celestia and Luna for what may or may not be good reasons? Okay, I can buy that as being something a Batman character could stand against, particularly if part of the ploy is to undermine them by stirring up trouble. If Batmare can squelch the problems, then no mass uprising. And you could even have her conflicted by showing other ways that the rulers fail the people, giving credence to the Order’s issue.

Mixing it in with some complaint against cutie marks which you’ve already established as having a biological origin, you’re starting to lose me. How do you fight against biology? What does this have to do with Celestia and Luna? This is far more an ideological and rhetorical social change rather than something actionable. (Is the poison the Scarecrow villain will be using supposed to eradicate cutie marks or something?)

And that’s not even getting into the fact that these six chapters are all back story. I realize you’re establishing an entirely different timeline, but, dear Lord, it got tedious. You have a tendency to repeat because of the lecture style of Aucune, I found the political maneuverings on Celestia and Luna’s part slightly unbelievable (but I could swallow it), and your dream sequences/flashbacks were just long.
I realize with the dreams you were building up to the moment where she became Derpy so she could have her revelation moment to become not-Derpy, but, again comparing to the main source, these flashbacks have no bearing on the internal or external conflicts. Which was their purpose in Batman.

Final point (I was going to put this in style, but I’ll just concentrate the rant into narrative), WHY ARE YOU USING GERMAN?? In the movie, it’s shown that we are in China, so it’s understandable that the “wise mentor” would be using Chinese. Plus, it fed into preconceived notions of who Ra’s was (the first guy looked a lot like TAS’s Ra’s), so the twist of who was truly Ra’s came as a shock. You, however, start in Manehattan, which is English speaking, and indications are that this mountain location is not that far removed. So why are we engaging in another language?

Further, as someone who is familiar with German, it’s another repetition point. I can read his dialogue and then Aucune’s and get the same information. I realize not all can, but the point still remains that you’re repeating info. Better to leave it at “Damons Hengst murmured something and Aucune translated…”. That way, you don’t get the repetitive info.

And if you’re not going to do the “who’s the real leader” twist, why would this even be necessary? You don’t use it enough to give it setting flavor, but try to use it to be mysterious, despite giving us translations. Just…leave it out. It’s not necessary.

All in all, though, it was easy to follow and to read, but I think you really need to work on some core elements. It lacks a certain punch right now that a Batman story should have. (Hint: He’s a conflicted, driven, paranoid, angsty mess. You either feed into it or subvert it.)

I kinda wish there were a few more chapters though so I could’ve seen how you’re going to handle the actual Batman part.

So much exposition and confused conflict.

Our primary characters, so far, are Derpy and Aucune Licorne Magique. There’s a few others, like ponies she kinda meets in the fortress, or her family in flashback, but I’m just going to concentrate on these two.

Derpy is a friendly, tries hard, mess. I loved how she was chipper in the prison, but her sudden flip to “I can’t do anything right” despair seemed strange. She does this a few times throughout the story, and, while it makes more sense given the background she has for this, it just seems slightly off. But I do enjoy her determination and drive.

I also enjoy Aucune as the mentor type. He’s very passionate (even though the passion gets diluted by all the exposition he has to spout) and just as driven. There’s also a good deal of compassion that gets expressed in undertones, even when he’s being harsh. I don’t know how you quite pulled that one off, but kudos!

Characters felt believable and I frankly enjoyed them. Once I got around the back story.

On the one hand, I liked your prose. It’s very descriptive and well done. The opening action scene was a great read. I would’ve liked to have seen more of this in the other chapters.

Which bring us to the main issue of your style: show vs. tell. Because you’re trying to make us aware of all of the background and world changes that make your story work, we’re left with a very “telling” story. You even feel the need to detail her daily routine for her training. Again, I know you’re trying to give the same overall plot as the movie, but what a movie can do for a montage, the written word cannot. I’d quote the section, but it’s rather long, so here’s just an alternative of what you could write instead:

The days began to blur together. Aucune pushed her, pushed her harder than she could have ever imagined. There was chemistry (“No, no, don’t mix those--!” *Boom*), which didn’t always go well, philosophy (“And what does Maristotle say about the division of souls?”), history (*insert some random comment here*), and, of course, physical training (“Ms. Hooves, how on Equus did you manage to do the last three laps backwards?”)
She always tried in whatever he gave her, but it never seemed like quite enough.

In this example, we get the same feel for what she’s being taught, a bit of the background setting, and get hints of some of the mishaps she’s been through without having everything explained to us. (Because, honestly. Do we need a full paragraph where you show your ability to pun using philosopher’s names? That was rather painful. One, maybe two, are good enough. It makes the joke, lets us know her studies, and move on.)

Further, since part of the point of the opening is to move her quickly from being a mess into being a collected person, you don’t need to elaborate on her incapability. You just need to highlight it and move on to the main point: her turning moment. We’re probably going to see more of the klutz anyway. (It’s the perfect cover, right?)

But beyond that, you keep a fairly consistent dark mood, although some of your attempts at brevity fall short, such as the scene with the cook. You either need to just keep it dark with her inadvertently creating humor, or, again, play up the humor by having her just ditz through the whole mess.

I liked the writing all around, but felt that it got dragged down by your subject matter.

You get points for you back story, but you’re effectively rehashing the full plot of another source.

But I can tell you how to fix it: literary license. As I mentioned before, I would’ve loved to have seen Derpy just fumble her way through while everybody took the plot seriously. This means you would’ve had to cut some things (like the internal conflict of Batman) and streamlined others (the external conflict of why the Order is even doing anything), but that would’ve been acceptable. Even taking things more seriously, you can still do similar things: again, why are you using another language? You can’t phase us with a fake out; and even if you don’t include the fake out, that just makes another language redundant. That’s a plot point you can cut from the original source for yours.

Basically, take the overall premise, pull the plot points that are most relevant, scrap the rest.

I’ll admit I didn’t go through this with an eye to grammar, but nothing really stood out to me as major issues on my read through, so I didn’t feel a need to go back through.

The only thing I did notice was “Celestia is my witness.” The phrase is “As X as my witness.” You can drop the first as, but not the second.

Biggest tip? Move away from the crossover source more. It feels like you’re writing yourself into a corner that you have to come up with more and more elaborate background to help yourself work around. Figure out the driving point (why does Derpy become Batmare? What need does that fill for her?) and focus on that. The rest of the movie’s plot can be used as background to help drive her to that point. But right now, that prime conflict is lost.

Personal Recommendation: I’d give this an enjoyable. I’m curious as to how the conflict is going to play out, and I want to see Derpy become Batmare and kick ass. I’d just really like to see some of the exposition tightened and clarified.

3183775
Hello there! Thanks very much for the extensive review Asilin! Been awhile since I got around to anymore writing, unfortunately. Real life just keeps getting in the way, and on top of that I'm in the middle of a major edit for the entire story. To address some of your biggest concerns:

(1) The gigantic exposition sections are pretty much over, thankfully. The next chapter's set to explore the next year of Derpy's training (and before you panic when you read the words "the next year" don't worry, it's going to be summarized through brief vignettes from other characters, ponies involved in her training, that sort of thing. Hopefully it won't drag on to a painful extent. )

(2) The German's pretty much done. There might be a line or two more, but it'll be done away with by another character, there's no need for it at this point. I know it might be confusing to some readers, but I guess I've been trying to emphasize, in using the German, along with some other things (German names for people, buildings, philosophies in the Order, the medieval style of its locale, etc.) that it has, culturally, a heavy German (or Ger-Mane, HA! OK, feel free to hit me for that one, I'd deserve it. ) origin, without explicitly stating it. Apologies if that didn't come across clearly.

(3) The story's going to pull further and further away from the source material, believe me. There's quite a few original characters who haven't shown up yet who I'm quite excited to utilize (particularly the guy who'll be Derpy's Lucius Fox, more or less, he's going to be a blast to write , along with some of the original characters I've borrowed from Chengar Qordath's Winningverse, with his graciously-given permission). Major plot points will still be utilized as well, but hopefully in a way that comes across as fresh and new. Unfortunately for you, I don't think Derpy's going to become the Batmare you're hoping for, Asilin, that is, she's not going to just kinda bumble her way to success. While I hope to get plenty of humor and the lightheartedness of MLP in there, this is still going to ultimately be a serious story about Derpy getting control over her life and finding a purpose, doing something that helps her realize her full potential.

(4) The length's something that, unfortunately, I can't do too much about. I've planned from the start that this would be a long, detailed project. Some of the suggestions you made concerning how it drags in certain segments I will take into account as I continue with this major editing job I'm working on (thankfully I haven't even covered that section detailing her daily routine yet). I'll condense segments as much as I can, take out as many needless words and sentences as I can, but these early, exposition-heavy chapters are going to be the toughest to do that with in that regard.

(5) Sorry if some of the conflict is confusing at this point. I think what I'm trying to get across with the Order is that, on the one hand, there is some history that explains and even justifies the anger that some of its members have towards the Sisters (as an aside, notice that Aucune never even recognizes them by royal titles, he just call them the "Sisters"), but on the other hand, even if some of that anger makes sense, it's very raw. Old wounds are getting freshly reopened on account of some of its members, and the anger that many now hold toward the ruling figures of Equestria, while, again, partly justified, is also becoming greatly exaggerated and misdirected. Point is, a group with good origins, history, intentions, and beliefs even, is going in a bad direction because of some very raw, raw anger.

As for their issue with cutie marks, it's important, but at the same time, don't necessarily buy everything they're saying as the gospel truth. In this universe, they are pointing out some problems that ponies have in their perceptions of cutie marks, deep problems, but at the same time, they're exaggerating the seriousness of the problem and looking for solutions to changing the status quo that aren't so good. As Derpy grows while with the Order, she's not necessarily growing as the Order is; Derpy's going in her own direction, and it's not necessarily one that the Order's leaders have anticipated. And a lot of that has to do with where she's come from, which is why I went into her background in such great detail, along with detailing the Order's history so much.

Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion you had after reading the story, and also gives you an idea of where it's going. Again, I'm glad that, despite the many problems you pointed out, you still found it enjoyable overall, and I appreciate the time you took to review this. I will try my best to implement your suggestions, both in my editing and going forward in the writing, and I hope that my story develops in a way that you find both interesting and even more enjoyable, and especially, in a way that makes sense overall. Last thing I'd want is to put together a story that's a jumbled mess and makes no sense.

3184405
Totally understand real life getting in the way. This review got put on hold for a short story I'm writing, actually. So I apologize for the delay. But let me reply:

1) It's great that these are the only exposition heavy chapters, but, as you're in an editing phase for the story, I'm going to highly recommend going through and reworking these. If you must present them as is, I'd say you can probably tighten the exposition into three chapters. Otherwise, you may want to start farther in and let this information be implied (X action went as well as it had during her training), remembered (Aucune had told her), or discussed.(confrontations with Aucune, discussions with the Lucien character, whoever). The big issue with presenting all of this exposition is that you don't allow us time to connect to character motivation and drives which is really done when they are presented with and overcome conflict. And Derpy's personal conflict, while decent, isn't enough to carry the momentum.

There's a storytelling formula titled "ABC". Action, Background, Conflict. You hook us with action, give us enough background to give the action and upcoming conflict some sense, and then bring us into the conflict. Something to keep in mind.

2) Problem is, you did explicitly state it. They're speaking German. That's as explicit as you can get without just naming it. You need other things to back it to establish it as their culture instead of just something they've affected. Artistic styles, dress, foods, music, all of these things collectively make a culture. You have a Tibetan/Buddhist lifestyle, with a European style fortress, where they alternate between speaking English and German. That's not a Germanic culture. So in your edits, that would be something else to remove.

Plus, you really only have the German included in scenes where you cut away from Derpy's POV. I didn't get a chance to mention it in the review, but you really shouldn't leave Derpy's POV. It's her story, her journey. If she doesn't see it or hear it, then neither should we. Plus, that leaves more for us to be surprised by later on.

3) I wasn't saying that's the direction you necessarily have to go, just one you could go and had started to present with the first chapter. It's fine if you want to go a more serious route, but the current issue is that all you're really presenting is her fumbling around. If that's not your intent, then get to her not fumbling around sooner. Otherwise you're just using her for laughs.

4) And I'm not really concerned about the length myself. I was more pointing out that you're looking at 22 chapters minimum if you keep pace with the movie for the rest of the story. (Which you won't. Written word takes longer.) So it was more a "if this isn't your intent, you may want to readdress" comment.

5) I think you're still missing the issue here. It doesn't matter if what the Order believes about cutie marks is true or not, is as serious as they're presenting or not, or what have you. What matters is that they believe it to be true and serious. And serious enough that Aucune brings it up constantly. And often alongside their issues with Celestia and Luna.

That means that you are presenting these two issues as being tied together but have yet to give us a "how" or "why". They just apparently are. And yet these are the two things that the Order is prepping for and training for in order to correct in some fashion.

Put it this way. In Batman Begins, Ra's constantly gives Bruce information on how he has to be strong. Has to be powerful. Has to strike fear into the heart of evil. Has to be a force for righteousness against evil. Turn fear and evil against itself. Be stronger than his father who couldn't confront evil on its own terms.

Noticing a pattern?

He's building up this idea of going against evil in a physical way and is feeding Bruce the idea that Order is in the right by doing so. That way, when the moment of truth comes, when Bruce must decide to be one of them or not, while we're shocked, we can look back and understand how the events led to that moment.

Right now, your ideas aren't building to that conclusion because they're not working together. The political history and anger is fine; that's easy to fill in the blanks from personal background knowledge. The cutie marks are a bit harder as that's more of a spirit quest aspect that not all cultures have, but I can still see a rage against them, even if it's hard to see how a group would go about a physical campaign to overcome it. The two together? I have no idea how they're connected in the minds of this group.

Food for thought as you edit :)

3185295
I think I better understand some of your earlier critiques. First of all, the German's out. Well, it's not out yet, but once I get back to editing I'll work it out. You're not the first person to tell me that the German was needless, this is just the first time that I've realized that it was, so thank you for that. I don't really know why I went with it, in hindsight; the foreign language works in Batman Begins largely as a quick and easy way to amplify the League of Shadow's mysteriousness, but here, it's just needless. There's really no reason other than "trying to be cool" to have German thrown in there, and since I want my readers to understand what they're saying anyways (since the hope was that they'd go through and translate it, again, just demanding more of my readers for no apparent reason), I'll just cut that B.S. out and translate it instead. Thanks for calling me out on that.

As for the direction the Order's taking her in, I understand what you're saying about it being vague at this point. Partly, that's intentional on my part, though I understand the issue there. In the earlier stages of Derpy's training, her ideological path wasn't quite as much of a concern to them, they were just trying to cover basics and help her get to a point and where she can truly better herself. Now that she's at that point, you'll see in the next chapter that they're trying to direct her in a particular direction more and more. Her instructors will all have different personalities and methods of doing so, some more blunt and direct, others more subtle, but they'll all be doing it. Again, I understand that at this point the story's at a point where it doesn't make too much sense what direction it's going in, but hopefully that really starts fleshing out in the next chapter.

Thanks again for helping me realize especially how pointless the German segments are; in hindsight, it makes absolutely no sense within the narrative, and doesn't even get any style points, it's just asinine and stupid. I'll rectify that little error as soon as possible.

3183775
Awesome work! seriously, I may not say much at times, but I think I found my new favorite commentator

3185767
Now, I totally feel you on that one. My current short WIP has an ending I love; it's cute, sweet, and a call out to one of my references. But I've had some of my critiquers say it lacks punch. So it may have to go. Much to my sadness.

But that's the way writing goes, yeah?

3185785

Aww, thanks, Flare. :D

3186144
Oh heck yeah, that's the way writing goes indeed. We need people sometimes to call us out on certain things, because what may initially seem like a genius move or totally make sense to us might just be plain confusing to others. It's actually why I've been employing the Authors Helping Authors group; very good system they've got. Read a fic, write a review on it, get a review in turn from the author whose fic you reviewed. Nice system when it works.

3186935
That's cool. :) I'm part of something similar on another site. We do one-for-one full crits for each other. It's good when writers can function as smart readers for each other.

3186935
I've tried that group. Unfortunately... I have read tons of stories, and asked for their help as well... least to say my experiences were not that great.

3189140
Yeah, I haven't used it too much, and only one of the three people I've reviewed have actually done me the courtesy of returning a review so far. To be fair, one of the stories was a short one-shot, so I understand that what I'd be asking of them in return isn't exactly the same amount of work, but still, I wrote her story a full review, that's for sure. Ah well, what can you do?

3190035
Do the Polka?

3190094
Aye, you can do that, yes.