The Horror of The Conversion Bureau - An open letter to Chatoyance · 9:49pm Aug 18th, 2012
The horror of The Conversion Bureau. An Open Letter to Chatoyance.
In response (sort of) to http://www.fimfiction.net/blog/57818
I want to sincerely apologise in advance for any overemotional responses in this post, I know I have a bit of a problem with those though I’ll try to keep them level-headed. I also apologise for any weird grammar on my part since English is not my first language.
The first thing I want to do here is answer a question. Why (the dreaded word) am I writing this?
Why? That’s a very good question. Why would a guy who feels he’s really bad at expressing himself, prefers silently lurking around make an account just for this and risk making an idiot of himself on the Internet? The answer is simple. It’s anger. Why am I angry? Is it because I’m tired of watching this silly battle between The Conversion Bureau and the Anti Conversion Bureau fanbases? Is it because I find TCB a concept that makes me physically nauseous and need to vent? Or maybe I’m just a selfish dick that can’t stand people having different opinions than me? To be honest, at the time of writing this, I’m not sure myself. Then again, I’m here, sitting in my chair, writing this manifesto of sorts.
First of all. Questions. I firmly believe that asking and answering questions is crucial development as a thinking human being. It should never EVER be condemned. Who? What? When? Where? Why? How? All the five Ws and a H (than you wikipedia) are equal. If using one of them is considered wrong then using any of them should be considered wrong. Is questioning wrong? Is seeking answers wrong? There was a time when that was the case. I don’t need to remind anyone where that put us for a 1000 years. Can a question be considered an attack? Maybe, however that’s not the word I’d use. I think challenge is more appropriate. When asked the question “why?” your worldview is being challenged, and you are called on to defend it. How can that be a bad thing? It allows for improvement, points you to the flaws in your logic that you have not considered before. Refusing this challenge, is cowardice. It’s admitting that you have nothing to defend your points, yet refusing to admit defeat. It takes a lot to admit you’re wrong, I know from autopsy, but it’s better than defending flawed logic that WILL be challenged over, and over, and over again.
But let’s move back to the topic that’s really important here. The conversion bureau. You may ask me: “Why do you even care? It’s just a story.” Empathy. Our empathy. This thing that makes us care. The ability to project upon ourselves the feelings of others, even fictional characters. And that’s what makes me angry. When we read a story we tend to emotionally latch on a character, that’s normal. So here I am, reading a TCB story, emotionally latching on humanity as a whole and what I see? Humanity is facing destruction from a ever expanding “barrier” that’s going to KILL US ALL and DESTROY EVERYTHING WE EVER ACHIEVED AS A SPIECIES. A bunch of ponies BRAGGING ABOUT THEIR MORAL SUPERIORITY and presenting us with an ultimatum: drink a body and MIND ALTERING potion or DIE by the barrier. Well that’s an interesting material for a villain... Wait... Are you saying I should consider this AS A GOOD THING!? I... Err... Umm... WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!? They are twisting our bodies and our minds, taking our land by the barrier, destroying all we ever created with the alternative being DEATH? This is insane! Moral superiority of one sapient species over another does not give the right to decide whether they live or die. But wait... I’ve heard that one before... I think I heard someone claiming something similar... Oh... Oh shit... Godwin’s law... Meh... ‘This is probably another trollfic’ I tell myself, ‘nothing to worry about’. Who would seriously turn our favourite ponies into Nazis, that’s ridiculous. But then I find there is more. More TCB stories with the same premise and different characters. Oh did I mention that the authors don’t consider them trollfics? This is probably the moment I found myself being physically repulsed. Just thinking about the whole premise made me ill. After that I swore to myself never to touch a TCB ever again.
So why did I return? Well I admit. After being exposed to the horror of the conversion bureau I lost faith in the brony community. To advocate genocide? I don’t even want to know why. But then, something appeared, something that restored my faith in humanity. TCB Deconstructions. Finally, someone took a sane approach to the setting. Finally I could say ‘I’m not alone against crazies’. As with every story on FiMfiction i read the comments. And what I found there? Among the usual pro-TCB misanthropy there was one that stood out against the others. Oh I think everyone knows who I’m talking about. Our dear Chatoyance. The most rabid TCB preacher ever. And no, don’t you try ‘I’m not preaching’ me. This is the Internet. We have screenshots.
Chatoyance, I’m writing this as an open letter not as a comment because of the censorship you have the tendency to impose on your profile and stories. I’m writing this, because after reading your blogpost I felt not only disgusted, but insulted. Yes, you insult me. Your claim of innocence insults me. You’re a misanthrope. No, don’t deny it. We’ve all seen you preach how humanity is bad and we should feel bad. Throughout the whole site you left countless comments that can be summed up: “Hate humanity Go Pony”. You claim to write TCB stories without intention of being misanthropic? The whole TCB premise is a flag for misanthropy, I might even say it has become synonymous with it. It is impossible for a pro pony TCB story to not be misanthropic. That’s the TCB stigma. You say that your stories are a metaphor for becoming a brony. Well that’s interesting because no one would ever guess if you haven’t explicitly stated that. Maybe you should put a disclaimer on every story you write, because the metaphor I see is “Brainwashing and body alteration are good when performed by morally superior being” and “Technology is bad unless approved by morally superior beings”. Maybe we should condense it into something more general like “Existence can only by approved by morally superior beings, otherwise it’s bad”. A metaphor that has to be explained by the writer is a shitty metaphor. You say you don’t understand all the hate directed at you. By writing your stories you write some part of yourself into them. People know that and see it. But what you’ve shown them is an image of acceptance and complacency in the face of genocide. I come from a country that suffered from Nazi occupation and communist oppression. Acceptance and complacency is an affront to those who fought and died for freedom. And TCB ponies are no better if not worse than Nazis. You say you’re writing for yourself. No, you aren’t. Not anymore. The moment you submit it to public view you put it out to be judged by the public. If you don’t wish to be judged, don’t publish your stories. You say that when you discovered TCB you saw potential, but you didn’t take a closer look. You failed to notice the most important thing, the TCB stigma. Now no matter how sweet an innocent it looks, no matter how much you sugarcoat it, no matter how much purple prose you spin around it, because at the core, there will always be something rotten.
And thus I come to the end of my rant. In the end, I find the horror of the conversion bureau not in the human genocide by pony, or the fact that it warps our favourite ponies that we know and love into something twisted and vile. No, the true horror of the conversion bureau, are the people who support it.
-Valumior
Preach it man! Preach the word! +100 Internets.
*watches with morbid interest*
3.bp.blogspot.com/-0LkCMi0K4tU/T0-iDvRLFpI/AAAAAAAABt0/hsAX07l-qSI/s400/8611.Pinkie+Pie+popcorn.jpg-610x0.jpg
*shrug* Okay. Couple things I find wrong with your logic, but whatever.
295903
No, not whatever, Cloud. Tell us. Seriously, this isn't that far off from a blog I have WANTED to post for the longest Goddamned time (and may still post anyway), but that response you just gave is exactly indicative of the very issue we have. You say you see flaws in his logic? Tell us what they ARE so we can discuss it. You never know. You may be surprised what results from open and reasoned discussion instead of the usual strawman arguments I see from everyone who claims that people who don't like TCB 'don't get it'.
295903
>I disagree with you and think you're an idiot, but I won't say why and actually defend myself.
And this, this right here folks, is why you need to say WHY!
295936
296005
Alright. If you want the specific things I found wrong with it, here ya go.
1) "After being exposed to the horror of the conversion bureau I lost faith in the brony community." I do take some of an issue with this. If he really can't separate a relatively small subset of fanfiction from the brony community at large, then that's a deeper issue with him than it is with the core concept of TCB.
2) "The whole TCB premise is a flag for misanthropy, I might even say it has become synonymous with it. It is impossible for a pro pony TCB story to not be misanthropic. That’s the TCB stigma." It's entirely possible for a story to be both pro-pony and avoid the 'stigma' that he talks about. I'll point to my works first, then to the authors that tower over me in terms of ability as examples. Trying to blanket any story he disagrees with the brush of a 'stigma' is just plain wrong.
3) Lastly, his attempt to make this about TCB in general falls flat on it's face when it's clear he's only referring to a single author. So to me, this reads less as a rant about his personal problems with the Conversion Bureau concept, and more about how he cannot stand Chatoyance and her work.
Also, NoMoreSanity, I don't recall once saying that he was an idiot, only that I had some problems with his logic.
296012
Okay, so let's take this by the numbers then.
1) I can partially agree with you here. He may have allowed this subset of the fandom to color his view of the entire fanbase. But consider the fact that this subset is unusually large, it may be a case of once bitten, twice shy, to use the old axiom. I can honestly say that if the Conversion Bureau had been my first exposure to the majority of the fandom at large, I might feel the same way, due to the negative connotations of the concept in general, regardless of what Blaze originally intended, because his concept, which by his admission is not intended to be misanthropic nevertheless come off that way and many people have taken that idea and RUN with it. Regardless of their intentions. The fact is they looked only at the surface of the fic and not the deeper, more sinister implications within it.
2) Okay, so you've mentioned your work. I have yet to actually seriously sit down to read any of your stories, but I will see about doing so. But who are these other writers you're speaking of? If one of them is Chat, this argument largely fails, since Chat is the single most prolific author in the subgenre and sadly, the one most people associate with the concept after Blaze himself, who has never been able to live down the reputation the story gained him as a misanthrope.
3) As stated before, Chatoyance is the single most prolific author in this subgenre of fiction in the pony fandom. There are various other authors, yes, but most of them have written only a handful of stories each. Chat has produced the most stories out of any one singular author and is the most often in the spotlight in regards to this particular subgenre. Considering that her stories take most of the generally undesirable concepts of the Conversion Bureau idea as originated by Blaze and then ramped up so far that the dial goes past eleven and breaks, it is again easy to see why many people consider her the most notorious writer in this subgenre. In addition to her actual stories, there are the trollish and abusive comments she has left on other people's fics, and her long, rambling posts on her blog which seem to be saying 'oh woe is me, people are taking time to think about my work and point out things they see as problems! They want to share those thoughts with people instead of just praising my work! That's mean!' Her most recent post alone is a disturbing piece that completely invalidates the very concept of literature and literary thinking on the whole, and makes me wonder where she's pulling this stuff from. Cause I don't think even the term ass pull is enough to cover that one. And interestingly enough, her most recent post is pretty much a rambling version of what I just summed up almost word for word. ...Sort of. And this despite the fact that she has claimed she WANTS to hear the opinions of other people. What she should be saying is 'I want the opinions of other people only if they are opinions that praise me.'
I have said this before, I will say it again. Chatoyance has skill as a writer. However she is not a truly great writer. She wants only to be praised, and considers anyone who doesn't claim her work is perfect is abusive and trolling her, while she leaves comments on other people's works that actually ARE abusive and trollish and expects to be allowed to get away with it. Writers, true writers, need thick skin. They need to be able to engage in intelligent discourse with their readers, because almost every reader is not only a reader, but also a critic. Nearly any reader of a story will ask the questions How, what, when, where, and yes, why of any story, because they should want to know. A good story, be it a movie, a comic, a book, whatever, must engage the audience. If a writer does not want their readers to do this? They don't want readers.
296071 But see, that argument doesn't really tread water with me. No matter how many words an author writes, they're still a single author. Within the TCB sub-section of fandom, there are many authors, and even if one of them is more prolific than the others, using that single person's work as a justification to tar and feather the entire fanbase as a result is not accurate in the slightest. That'd be like if you didn't like Stephen King for horror, or Tom Clancy for military fiction, and making broad claims about that entire subset using your specific issues with those author's works.
You claim that a good story must engage it's audience. But Chatoyance's stories do engage her audiences, whether it's for good or for ill attention. The simple fact remains that the number of people who react and engage positively with her stories far outnumber those that don't. To me, that indicates that she is at least doing something right for those of us who do enjoy her work.
And lastly, I do find his logic in creating his account solely for the purpose of badmouthing the particular TCB stories he doesn't like strange.
296101
I think you might want to re-read this man's blog post again, Cloud. Because as has been said on our group before, you are largely strawmanning here. If Chatoyance's comments can be taken at any kind of face value, then she believes she is being true to Blaze's idea. If that is so, then she is in fact magnifying the worst traits of the concept. But she is not the only one who uses those concepts in the fashion Blaze did, even though in his case it was unintentional. Numerous people have commented on issues they have with various versions of the TCB concept done by various authors, because the problems they see in those stories tend to remain, regardless of who the writer is. Add in that Chatoyance has also taken at least one element from another writer's TCB universe (The PER) and added it to her own, is it any wonder than when people find other TCB fics, they start immediately making connections back to Chat's fics? After all, she writes more TCB fics on her own than any other writer does and if she's adopted a concept from another fic, she has thus been the one who has introduced at least some readers to it, and regardless of what way they are intended to be read, there is no way to change one's initial perceptions of them if they have been introduced in one of Chat's fics, for good or ill.
Bear in mind also, the majority isn't always correct when it comes to reader/audience response. But that's another matter altogether. Moving along!
I find it interesting you bring up the idea of superset genres here. That doesn't hold. People can like authors in a genre without liking or hating the entire genre. That part I won't disagree with you on. The problem is that you're trying to say that when Chat has practically become the sub genre in question. Stephen King is one of the best known horror writers out there, yes. But he isn't the only author who puts out horror stories with nearly the same level of prolifieration. I can name at least a few others. Dean Koontz, Ray Bradbury, V.C. Andrews, Gary Brandner, Neil Gaiman, H.P. Lovecraft, Anne Rice, and Darren Shan. Each and every one of them is well known. King may be the face of the horror genre as we know it, but there are many others who shoulder the load with him. Koontz may be the second best known horror writer of the modern day after King himself.
By comparison, Chat is pretty much the most well known writer in this subgenre of horror because she pretty much takes a little bit of everything that others have done, implants them into her own works, and has essentially become the subgenre itself, to the point where the first name anyone would think of when it comes to the Conversion Bureau is Chat, for good or ill. For example, for the longest time I had no idea that you, or even Krass, were TCB writers. Why? Because most stories that I saw when I did a search for the Conversion Bureau on here after learning about it on TVTropes and saying 'it can't be as bad as they make it out to be' (and holy shit did I ever get a rude awakening when I realized that Yes it fucking could be and was), the first entire page or two of stories that came up on here were all stuff by Chat. Although I only ever read a handful of her fics, it was enough to tell me that her stories disgusted me, and that I didn't really want to bother with anything else in the subgenre. But I have been trying to be fair about it. Krass' story An Azure Future isn't nearly as bad as Chat's stuff. It doesn't make a lot of sense that the main character in the story suddenly does a 180 on his position about being converted (and then does so in the most oddball way since he could have just walked into a damn Bureau instead of working with the PER), and it still has some of the very negative connotations inherent to most 'pro' TCB fics I have read since, but it wasn't nearly as bad as Chat's stuff. The problem is that Krass and even you are the MINORITY of writers in this subgenre, and everything you guys have done has likely already been assimilated by Chat's TCB concept and has an uphill battle against perceptions already in place as a result. In short, people may often end up referring to Chat's work when they talk about the TCB concept as a whole because they don't KNOW anyone else exists, and that's not her fault, that's simply the way it is when you're the only fucking person anyone knows because you're the most prolific person in the subset.
The fact that you advise Chat not to speak to her actual critics (meaning people who ask her intelligent, thought out questions or even just asking that ever so lovely question 'why?') doesn't help matters any. A good writer cannot hide from their critics, and cannot go bawling over the fact that there are people who don't like their work. A good writer is one who can and will acknowledge their critics, and even consider that they may have a point. She does not, and you are far to quick to tell her she is right to pretend critical thinkers responding to her work in a fashion that doesn't suck up to her or sing her praises as if she was somehow God's gift to fanfiction, which does nothing to help her as a writer and much to leave her open to more harm as a writer as these antics simply do more to damage the perceptions people may have of her, or do further damage, in the case of those who already have a poor perception of her to begin with. Writers need to be able understand and appropriately respond to both supporters and critics alike. She does not do this and your current advice to her on how to handle her critics just makes her look more and more like either a jackass at worst or, at best, a three year old child throwing a temper tantrum because mommy and daddy didn't call her a perfect little princess.
Not that I'm saying she IS, mind you, but her actions towards people who don't praise her and actually ask her questions that she seemingly has no answer for certainly can paint her in such a light. She is a verbose individual, I won't deny that. The problem is she goes on rants in her comments sections (and in OTHERS comments sections, all truth be told) and posts blogs longer than my arm that either say nothing whatsoever relevant to her critics' points, or else are reminiscent of a child throwing a tantrum because she didn't get that shiny gold star from the teacher.
To you, she's doing something right. That's fine. But don't tell her to hide away from people who don't think she's doing something right. Instead, tell her to start asking the hard question: "Do they have a point?" I haven't seen any indication that you, she, or anyone else who upholds Blaze's original, unintentionally misanthropic concept (It is somewhat tragic that he ended up writing the original story at all, given the reputation as a misanthrope that he got saddled with because of it) actually DO this beyond a few moments of strawmanning your way past it.
295891
Applejack delivers
Now, I've only read the stories Chatoyance has put on this site and read a bit of her blog here. The worst thing I can say about those stories is an overly optimistic presentation of Equestria, but that can hardly be the reason for all this disagreement, can it? Or is there some other blog I have not found? Or other stories that are a lot more horrible?
And excuse me If I don't take you up on the offer of screenshots as proof for any of this. I have seen conclusive proof for the Illuminati world conspiracy and the whereabouts of the Amber Room, on a homepage on the internet.
I agree wholeheartedly, but I must also echo the sentiments of Durabys up there. i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/cpj1227/SA%20emotes/emot-munch.gif
296167 Um, first off, where is this evidence that elements of my work have been, as you put it 'assimilated' into Chatoyance's work? Because as far as I know, from having read every story she's written, the only true common elements between her stories and mine are the serum or potion that turns people into ponies, the fact that the places that Conversions take place are called Conversion Bureaus, and that Conversion Dreams take place.
Secondly, my advice to her specifically was to ignore the people that she feels are being overly critical of her because they disapprove of the ideas that she's chosen to write about. Since that is her ability on this site as given to her and every other author by Knighty, I'm advising her to exercise it. If you guys want to deconstruct her stories and the messages that you extrapolate from them, you are free to do so, but she has the right to control the content on the pages that she owns, regardless of whether you think that's right or wrong. The way -this- website is set up, if an author wants to post their fics and only let positive comments about it remain, then they are perfectly within their right as story/page owners to do so. It doesn't matter what you think it should be because this is not -your- site.
Lastly, Chatoyance has repeatedly said that she feels that she is being true to her interpretation of the TCB concept. Hers. Not mine, not Krass', not yours, not Blaze's, not anyone's but hers. Just like I'm true to my interpretation of it and you're true to yours. Each of us are allowed here on this site to write our stories in any manner we choose so long as it falls within the site rules. Which to this day all of hers have.
296206
Overly critical? As in, actually having a response other than what she wants us to have? I was unaware that expressing our opinions is now considered overly critical without proof.
Also, I did not say she's taken anything from your fics. The one thing I did say she HAS distinctly taken from someone else's fic is the PER, though granted in that case she had permission.
296213
>Also, I did not say she's taken anything from your fics. The one thing I did say she HAS distinctly taken from someone else's fic is the PER, though granted in that case she had permission.
"The problem is that Krass and even you are the MINORITY of writers in this subgenre, and everything you guys have done has likely already been assimilated by Chat's TCB concept and has an uphill battle against perceptions already in place as a result."
If that's not implying that she's taken elements from our work (since when I started writing TCB I made sure that I wasn't using elements from her works), then I don't know what is. Furthermore, while it's true that the other TCB writers are in the minority compared to Chatoyance in terms of word count, she is still a single author.
296228
You completely missed the qualifier in there didn't you? The word 'likely'. In other words, having not read your work yet, I don't know if she has adopted anything from your work or that of anyone beyond Krass' but I am speculating that it is possible.
A single author who is still the one most people know of before anything else. This is why your comparison to King and other writers in genre supersets don't hold. They don't just know King (unless they've been living under a proverbial rock for the last forty years) off the top of their heads or on primary searches for books in his particular genre. Chat on the other hand, is.
296173, look up "New Universe Three: The Friendship Virus". It's written by her and it is the most disgusting, sexist piece of shit I have ever read in my life. By the way, it's on this site and not pony related in the least.
296283
I knew that one and just for the sake of argument I reread it. And now? I don't see how that is supposed to be a "disgusting, sexist" scenario. In fact, it is realistic (or at least more realistic than AIs or ponification potion), out-of-control bio-engineering has already reared it's ugly head in the 2001 anthrax attacks and biological weapons are a real-world problem.
The thing about behavior being controlled by hormones is quite true, a number of studies have proven that, but it is far from simple enough to be influenced by a biological weapon, especially because the story claims that the change made it into reproduction in less then ten years.
So overall it's quite like a zombie movie but without the gore and guts and with too much atmosphere killing techno-babble.
I have seen worse, maybe I'm just blunted by over-exposure to the net?
Or is this about guys wearing bras?
Personally I find the "Mankind Triumphant"-stories a lot more disturbing.
296441, Did you miss the rather obvious implications that men are all boozing, violent, lecherous pigs? And that women are dainty flowers that can do no wrong? It's sexist because it makes but men and women look like cruel mockeries of what they are in real life.
Also, Ten Minutes: Aftermath - a complete mockery of the original Ten Minutes, done without the author's permission and a link was posted on the original's comment page along with a smart ass reply. Tell me, how is something like this even remotely acceptable behavior?
296466
Oh boy, let's see: We have a father talking to his son, about a most probably unrecoverable situation that has obviously changed their self-perception quite a bit. So anything about moral in that story is from the perspective of an unreliable narrator and not to be trusted.
It's quite like asking an untreated alcoholic about schnapps. Of course it's a good thing!
Please excuse me for not wanting to read through every story again. That "Ten Minutes"-thing may be morally dubious but
a) that has nothing to do with the quality of the story.
b) this is quite close to an ad hominem, and I know neither Chatoyance nor you good enough, so let's just not go there.
c) this is the internet, copying, remixing and rearranging is a thing around here. Has anyone on this side a permission from Hasbro? Just asking.
Valumior, 296012 et al,
You do a good job stating your arguments and the feelings behind them. Even though I have many of the same reservations to the points you mentioned as Cloud listed in his comments, I think the feelings you expressed need to be addressed. (I won't get into everything immediately, but I will be happy to discuss it in the thread.)
1 - "I find TCB a concept that makes me physically nauseous..."
The TCB concept is a disaster story, specifically a disaster for humanity. In that sense it's just a plot device to create dramatic tension, like any other thousand others submitted on FIMFiction. Many of the these are based on behaviors that most Bronies would consider utter perversions of the MLP:FIM universe and characters. I understand your argument about your empathy with the characters making you feel very uncomfortable with the TCB premises. I don't read most grim-darks, war-in-equestria, shipping, and clop-fics for the very same reason. But by the same token, I fully recognize that there are stories in all these genres that are worth reading because the authors used those settings to tell a deeper story.
The TCB is an amazing plot device for the exploration of identity and its meaning. Question: "To what lengths would you go to ensure your continued existence if faced with a death that you could see coming for years?"
By itself, this doesn't seem to warrant revulsion, at least no more than any other non-canon plot device. Here is I will take a risk and try to get at the deeper feelings behind your statement above. Please correct (and forgive) me if I misinterpreted what you meant. A big part of your antipathy for the TCB premise is that the Ponies are behaving out of character, perhaps even in ways that could be seen as evil from the human point of view. I have to agree with you there, they are behaving in an extreme fashion. But isn't that also fare game in a fiction? Again, TCB is hardly unique in this. Question: "To what lengths would Celestia and Luna go to protect Equestria in the case of contact with humanity? Would they think they owe humanity any consideration? What if Celestia and Luna were truly alien in how they thought, including their moral precepts? What if they were just dangerously naive, provincial little princess/goddesses who lacked the experience to deal with issues this big?"
2 - "The whole TCB setting is a flag for misanthropy..."
I can understand where that comes from, but the majority of TCB fics I've read (and I admit not having read them all) including Chatoyance's (most of which I have read) are pretty much cautionary tales: they are meant to show a (some) flaws in the protagonists, some of whom will undergo a crisis in order to overcome these flaws, some who will succeed, some who will fail, and some who will cop-out. That the ponies are held up as an example of "righteous behavior" in contrast to the examples of "evil behavior" from the humans. This does not make the stories anti human, it does set a target "ideal" that may or may not be attainable. let's keep in mind one important fact fact here: the writers are human beings! They are not trying to betray humanity, they are trying to explore a different path that might lead to better results for humanity itself. That the idealized humans are shaped like ponies (instead of elves, halflings or any other object selected and anthropomorphized for dramatic effect.
One more thought on TCB and misanthropy. I currently have two fics set in the TCB universe. In one Celestia's designs for humanity have failed and she questions her entire strategy regarding CBs and becomes human herself, in the other Celestia becomes a major student of Renaissance Humanist philosophers which ends up the base of how she structures Equestrian society.
BTW - this explains Equestria's extremes of parallel development with western civilization (beyond the pat excuse that MLP:FIM was conceived and written by a bunch of western type humans.)
3 - "Technology is bad..."
I think the Barrier Field was just a plot device to create a context for the questions "What technology do we really need to live? Are we too dependent on technology?" Again, this is actually a rather common conceit in literature and media. Technology gone haywire is a very common theme, from BattleStar Galactica to Zombie flics. The examples are legion. Trying to specifically call out TCB in this regards is simply nit-picking.
4 - "Brainwashing and body alteration are good ... when performed by a morally superior being..."
Here we get into a whole pile of cans chock full of worms. I absolutely agree that any sane person would (and should) be shocked by such behavior. But is that the real message behind TCB? I have two main points to make:
- maybe the body change is just a fictional device representing the individual's decision to significantly and irreversibly change their lives. This is a disaster scenario, and in disaster scenarios tension is created by having a choice forced upon the protagonist.
- who says Celestia and Luna are morally superior? (See above.) Many TCB stories purposefully leave that up to the reader to figure out. Some ascribe ulterior motives to Celestia (a promise made to a human, a deal with other races/universes, etc...) Of course the ponies (in TCB) see themselves as morally superior. Name any country that claimed moral inferiority! However, I can see where this one hurts because it basically places a barrier between the Bronies and the Ponies, and THAT is a major problem for many readers of FIMFiction. Equestria becomes a foreign country. Equestrians become foreigners at best, aliens at worst.
To say that these are emotionally charged discussions would be an understatement. But I hope we can continue to dialogue about it.
296466 I'm going to chime in on the Aftermath thing, since it's come up before and likely will again. I sent Brony of Steel a PM asking him about it. In his reply, the only thing he stated that he had issue with was Chatoyance not asking him first, and even that was just because he felt it a matter of common courtesy. He had zero complaints about the tone of Aftermath despite it going in a completely different direction, and in fact felt flattered that someone would take his work and write something based on it. As far as the comments go, he also has zero problems with her posting the link to it and promoting it in the comment section of Ten Minutes.
296441 You Serious ? Do you know ANYTHING about biology, or how human growth and reproduction works ? Pretty much, withe Freindship Virus, she doomed humanity to die off, because children born, wouldn't have the testosterone levels in the teenage years, to transition fully into an adult, which means no sperm produced, and no sperm leads to extinction.
The hormone thing is correct, but, is it us men's fault, no. Are men's behavior different than most other male animals on this planet, no. Also, you know what damn animal feels sorry for killing, not the Majestic Lion, not the Mighty Eagle, but us humans. We are so kind, we actually resist our natural instinct to kill.
Don't start a biological argument, based on a bunch of faulty information from a author, and a few science articles.
296566
You bring up valid points which I am more then happy to answer. (unlike others... you know who I'm talking about)
If this question is the meaning underlying the TCB premise, then I believe it answers it in the worst way possible. To answer it, what I would do, I'll make my stance clear. I'd fight. I'd fight to the very end. I'd fight to stop the disaster. I'd fight to survive it. I'd fight with tooth and nail to stay alive as long as I can if there was nothing I could do about it. But I would not accept it, not ever. I would NOT lay down resigned, drinking some sort of potion to escape... to my happy place...
Disaster stories are about facing impossible odds and struggling to survive. TCB is about resigning to your fate and accepting defeat.
Ponies behaving OOC is honestly no longer the issue here. That's really fair game. You could replace the ponies with anything else, even other humans. I still would say that what they're doing is wrong.
And to answer the question about Celestia and Luna protecting Equestria. Setting up a barrier, that's understandable. Knowing ourselves, we can be pretty scary, they have no reason to welcome us with open arms initially. That's a proper caution. However, EXPANDING THE BARRIER is not an defensive action. It's a clearly aggressive one, and should be considered for what it is, an act of war. This is where Equestria stops protecting itself and starts to openly attack us.
This is the point I have to vehemently disagree with. You see, I've tried a bit of storytelling myself, never published it anywhere because I always thought there was something too shallow in it. I never wrote much of it down, but I sometimes discussed my concepts with a friend. Whatever I told him he always took apart everything we discussed whether it was my work or any show, game, webcomic or book, they were always comepletly torn apart. Why this? Why that? Have you ever considered that the bad guy has a point? Have you ever considered the protagonist is a bad guy? Hell, he even made MLP look like a dystopia. He's a one nit picky son of a bitch. And I thank him for that. He helped me put things into perspective. To treat TCB as a cautionary tale like you say, is a stretch. It's so far fetched I don't believe anyone could come up with it on their own, making it sound like last-minute attempt to justify a broken premise. You say to treat humanity as "evil behaviour" and ponies as examples of "righteous behaviour". This is what consider horrendously bad writing. It generalises one entire species as Always Chaotic Evil and the other as some sort of Incorruptible Pure Pureness. It tries to enforce Black and White morality by simplifying a human being. It implies not what you are saying but something along the lines of: "Humanity is inherently evil and the only way a human can be better is to throw away everything that makes them human and become a member of the pure and glorious pony race". This is the implication of a TCB story, not a journey to become a better person.
I've read your fic in the Humanity Triumphant verse. I think this approach, no matter how REEKING in misanthropy was the original by Chatoyance, is a good example what would actually happen, and that good intentions never justify any atrocities you have committed in their name. As Celestia in your story realised "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", and she has just arrived.
Maybe I am nitpicking indeed, but this somewhat an important matter to me. For me technological advancement is the next step of human evolution, beyond the boundaries of nature. It's not something we should be afraid of. Stagnation will sooner kill us than advancement. Life in Equestria is portrayed as life without the wonders of technology, putting us in a seemingly perfect paradise. That's the problem. Perfection. Perfection implies there is nothing to add. When there is nothing to add, nothing to improve upon, you have stagnation. Perfection by definition should be unattainable, the pursuit of perfection breeds progress, perfection itself breeds stagnation. When something is flawed it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, but can always be improved upon. You can't improve upon perfection. For me Equestria isn't a paradise, it's living hell.
Stories about technology going haywire usually involve AIs. The thing with AIs is about the moral dilemma of when the machine ends and where the sapient being starts. On stories involving AIs going haywire on the premise of some insane troll logic I got only one thing to say: "See, this is why you DEBUG YOUR SOFTWARE". On zombies. ... Seriously? Zombies?
First of all I'd like to point out that the body alteration is one of the least jarring offences of TCB, one that can be easily overlooked, because if that's necessary for survival then meh, let's go with it. The worst thing however is what comes packaged with it.
What really makes us human? What's our defining feature that makes us stand out among other species of the world? Our body? Well, looking at our bodies I must say that we are rather unimpressive for a predator. I mean seriously? Our teeth aren't exactly sharp and menacing. Hell, we don't even have proper claws. So what it is that made us rise to the very top of the food chain? Our minds. The most dangerous weapon ever conceived by nature. Our mind is what allowed us to thrive even in the most hostile of environments. The body is just a shell, it's the mind that makes us Us. And it's the same mind that is being forcibly rewritten in TCB. While the barrier destroys every achievement of human thought. The bureaus are ripping out any shreds of humanity from our minds replacing it with a mentality of a perpetually happy docile pony. The perfect genocide. Nothing left. Not even bodies. And TCB asks us happily accept it.
Who says Celestia and Luna are morally superior? Chatoyance. Repeatedly. She preaches about the moral superiority of ponykind and is shocked how could we ever consider the opposite. It's also blatantly evident in her stories.
The problem with TCB ponies is that they are praised in their superiority not unlike Hitler praised the superiority of the aryan race in 'Mein Kampf' (Don't you dare Godwin me. This is a perfectly valid point.)
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Thanks for the response. Onwards the discussion!
Your interpretation of the choices involved differ from mine - which has a huge impact on the different way way we see TCB. From my perspective the choices are:
A- don't accept that the absorption of the earth by Equestria is inevitable and seek to find a way to stop or even reverse it. There are some TCB fics which explore this aspect, but they tend to be explorations of more extraordinary individuals, and not the "common man". As an example in my fic "Relic" I am exploring the base character and the transformation Celestia undergoes when she is placed under extreme stress and forced to re-examine the choices that led her into that situation. By the way, as much as I'd like to take credit for the basic plot (Celestia defeated, beheaded and imprisoned) it actually came from a story by (wait for it...) Chatoyance.
There is one more aspect of the idea of removing the threat posed by the inevitable absorption of Earth, and it explains why this option is relatively rare in TCB fics: it eliminates the main source of dramatic tension. From a writer's perspective it is going to be a lot of work to think-up an alternate source of tension to drive the story forward, which is why the "inevitable disaster" plot is so popular in fiction.
B - Decide whether the price of survival is acceptable to you. In TCB that is going through Ponification with the attendant loss of some character traits, and a hightened sense of empathy to the emotions of others. Which character traits are lost or gained are not firmly fixed inTCB lore, are specifically chosen by the author for the dramatic purposes of the fic, Obviously this is much more dramatic if what is lost is important to the protagonist. An example would be the movie where the guy had to cut off his arm to get free of a rock slide. Here is where I think you take great exeption to the TCB scenario. You see Ponification as "resignation and accepting defeat". Here we differ greatly. Just as it takes courage to resist, it also take courage to adapt, particularly when it means giving up some beleifs or aspects of life that you cherish. Of course, you don't want to lose your arm, but do you have the guts to cut it off if it has become the factor that prevents you from moving on?
Many TCB stories are specifically looking at current human behavior and exploring the question: Would humanity be better off without this character trait, behavior, belief, or emotional outlook? Are there elements in our evolutionary or cultural past that are holding us back? Would we actually gain by losing them? Physically becoming a pony is just a metaphor for making the choice, the people making these choices may be transformed, but they are still people from a dramatic perspective. These questions seek a path for humanity's betterment and continued survival, they are absolutely not misanthropic!
C - In the context of TCB, resigning your fate is simply doing nothing and accept the coming end. There will be people who choose to do so, and this option has also been explored in some TCB fics. This is also a fair choice, because sometimes the price is too much.
If all the royal sisters are doing is expanding the barrier for the sake of forcing mankind to ponify, then I agree, it is an act of war. But there is more to it than that, or at least this is how I interpret the TCB, particularly the early years of the convergence. What if Celestia was presented with incontrovertible proof that humanity is well on its way to running off a cliff? What if she made a deal with the WorldGov to syphon off as much of the population as possible to slow the inevitable collapse and allow the power elites time to work out a way off earth? Celestia and Luna might only be players in a much wider game. One of the aspects of TCB that has always made my "conspiracy senses" tingle is the very quick collusion between WorldGov and Equestria. Of course, none of this may have been thought out by Blaze or authors of other founding fics of TCB. But I have to say that I stand clearly with you on the notion that "moral superiority" is not an excuse for an act of war. In my TCB head-canon, there is definitely something else going on (and if I say more I would be spoiling my own TCB fics!)
I think I have addressed that above. Let's be clear: MLP is a cartoon series writen by human beings for human consumption (yes, for 10 year old girls, but it appears to appeal to a somewhat broader demographic!) TCB fics are human stories written about humans beings - people who are people no matter what shape in which they manifest, and they are written for consumption by human beings, not fictional ponies. Saying that humanity is not perfect is completely different than saying humanity is evil. Only by the admission of our own shortcomings can we ever hope to overcome them. (Wow, that's good! I'll have to use that lline in one my fics.)
Yeah! Most Zombie flicks involve some technologically based disaster (drug/virus/bacteria is engineered and gets out of control) My pertsonal favorite remains "Night of the Living Dead", but I have to say that "The Walking Dead" is aming to push it off its gory, putrid pedestal.
TCB does not ask anyone to "happily accept it". The point of a cautionary tale is to make the reader think. Many of the authors writing TCB fics DO have a moral point to make, and the fact that they think humanity can stand some improvement is neither 1 nor 2 below:
1) Saying that Celestia, Luna and company are morally superior. They are not real people. But they are fictional people in other shapes. They are overwhelmingly human in their overall behaviors, far more than could ever make sense if anyone ever took an equine civilization seriously. (BTW - if you want to find sapient aliens who are truly alien in a logically consistent fashion try almost any science fiction by C.J. Cherryh).
The ponies are nothing more or less than idealized human beings, a rather common literary tool, even in Chatoyance's fiction. They're the "after" picture in the diet pill ads, and just as illusory. You may hold a different opinion, but as a writer who is doing some of my fics in the TCB universe, I have a reasonably good idea of my own intentions, and what I read in others' fics.
2) Hitler was setting a specific group of people over all others. These were real people, not fictional ponies. You could not be changed from a non-aryan into an aryan. There was no transformation possible, nor was it ever advocated. To compare Naziism with TCB is both unjust and unjustifiable. WWII and the holocaust happened in the real world and millions of real people died. MLP:FIM and the TCB fics are not historical documents and to put them in the same category is wrong. Allegorical fiction is just that, a story used to illustrate a point about human beings. Human beings, ALL OF US.
There. I didn't Godwin you. But this is serious stuff.
Well, I hope I have given you some of the answers you were searching for. Please think about what I have written to you and let me know.
300213
It's so nice we're having an actual discussion here. (You all know who I'm jabbing at)
I see it as the pretty much the only reasonable choice there is.
Yes, I know the Humanity Triumphant verse war created by Chatoyance (I noted it in my previous reply), but the misanthropic tone it was written in made it look like some kind of attempt to troll the anti-TCB crowd. Didn't really work on me.
By removing the inevitable disaster theme I don't think it removes any of the good dramatic tension. The only thing it removes for me is the sense of impending bleakness of the ending (humanity is pretty much dead, and there is really no way to fight it so why bother).
Whether this is a valid point depends on the nature of ponification. If it's only about body alteration you have a valid point. However as I stated in my previous response, alteration of the mind is destroying the very essence of what makes us us. Humanity is Flawed and those flaws are making us who we are. Being human is about living with those flaws and trying to be a better person despite them. Rewriting our brain to remove them is essentially killing our humanity. Thus whoever enters a conversion bureau is basically killed and replaced with someone completely different. Becoming a better person is realising our flaws and WORKING to make things better. Brainwashing is an artificial workaround, that makes the effort put in personal betterment worthless.
Resigning to your fate is also not taking option A and choosing the easy way out, away form the real problem. It's like drinking to forget, and not deal with it, like taking drugs to forget and not deal with it and of course like letting ponies brainwash you and make you forget... So you won't have to deal with it. The only real difference between those options is that one of them is permanent.
See, now we have something that resembles a villain. With Celestia as their unwitting (or not) pawn. This makes enough dramatic tensions to make up for the lack of an expanding barrier. "Yeahh... So we really fucked up the state of our world. Would you mind taking our people, who will be royally pissed off when they find out, before they do while we make a run for it (with their money of course)? KTHXBAI!" Though I think this would only work with the world in a state of a Deus Ex like dystopia.
On zombies and their qualification as a disaster.
Well, firstly I'd like to thank you for not Godwining me, something our Chatoyance would be incapable of. However I see you using the "fiction argument". You see, what are we doing here is deconstructing TCB. That is, we're analyzing FICTION and APPLY REAL LIFE CONSEQUENCES. Saying "but it's fiction" is not a valid argument. In fact it signifies the inability or unwillingness to address the issue. I'd really like to discuss those problems with TCB, but I believe the "fiction argument" is not valid in this discussion, therefore I won't answer to it.
296012
Ok. Although Warwolf addressed those pretty accurately, I feel the need to address those personally. After all, how would it look like if I dodged some perfectly valid questions.
I think I have to mention that the first time when I was exposed to TCB was when I was fairly new to the community, and by that time it didn't look like a small subset of the fandom to me. Though that was some time ago and since that my faith in the community regenerated a bit. The mental scar is still there however.
Ok, maybe I didn't provide enough explanation to what do I mean by "TCB stigma". When I first read a TCB story I was so repulsed that I swore to myself I won't touch any of those again. In fact every time I see a story with "Conversion Bureau" in the title my first thoughts are "Ahh... Great... Another one of those misanthropic piles of vomit". And I think I'm not the only one who react similarly. When writing TCB stories authors now have to work hard if they don't want to be branded as misanthropes. That's the TCB stigma.
My original rant was meant to have 2 parts. One thing was my general disgust with TCB. The other was about Chatoyance and her obnoxious and patronizing behaviour towards anyone who has a different opinion than her, and her audacity to claim to be a victim in all this.
301825
You know, you're really not helping your case with comments like "(You all know who I'm jabbing at)"
Keep on doing that! You're only making things worse.
301825
I agree that civil discourse is always more pleasant and profitable than the alternative, however it's easy to be civil with those who hold the same opinions. The real test is in holding civil discourse with someone whose opinions differ from one's own, as we're having now. Perhaps your claim to desiring it would considered as more sincere if you would extend the same to "you all know who I'm jabbing at".
There are in certain discourses irreconcilable differences that are born of innate differences in outlook or philosophy. You choose to see ponification as the abandonnment of humanity, whereas I see it as making a choice of letting some things go in exchange to get some things in order to survive. Even though we take the allegory out of the picture, (although I consider that a betrayal of the author's intent) I could still make a claim that ponified humans are nevertheless still carriers of human culture, and might even choose to get together and found a "Human Nation" in Equestria (this would be a tremendously "human" this to do and might be the subject of one of my future fics!) Humanity does not necessarily end with ponification. On this issue, I suspect we are not going to be able to change each other's positions. Such is life.
Chatoyance's original Mankind Triumphant fic was clearly meant as a dig against militarism and the political power of the military-industrial complex. You see it as misanthropic and a troll for the anti-TCB side. But let's be fair to Chatoyance, she is hardly the only pacifist member of the Brony community, and anti-militarist litterature is as old as the written word (but recent goodies include Catch-22, M*A*S*H, and most (but not all) "military" anime.
I disagree with your analysis on two points.
1) Humanity is defined by the very ability to change and adapt it behaviors. That is how we have spread to every habitat on earth. Even our brains are built to rewire themselves, which they do on a continuous basis in response to both the choices we make and the expeirences to which we are subjected. According to your definition, the person who wakes up every morning is a totally new person, and the person who went to bed the night before is dead. (There are people who actually believe this.) I agree that changing a person's mind is a much bigger deal than changing thier phisical form. But people change their minds all the time, and most people change many of their core beleifs as they travel through life (I'm over fifty years old, I've seen it happen!) So, no, I do not see ponification as mental death, no more than I would if all of a sudden I woke up tomorrow and decided to become a vegetarian. I would still be me.
2) Brainwashing is not an appropriate term here, as the person involved chooses to undergo ponification in the full light of disclosure of the consequences. The closest analogy I could see is joining a religious group and accepting to adopting the canon beliefs of that religion. Even the terminology is similar: "conversion, "newfoal" and "born-again"! This is also a major cause of discomfort many religious people have with the TCB, and religion is a huge part of many people's sense of personal identity, as are affiliations to particular technologies and activities in which ponies supposedly do not engage.
As explained above, I don't see it that way. Our basic viewpoints here are very divergent.
The TCB world clearly is a dystopia. But I keep wondering about the rather unstable equilibrium of those who are engaged in the productive economy (a very small minority on the TCB Earth) vs those teaming billions living off the public dole in world spanning favelas (the vast majority). It seems to me this is a classic case of a ticking time-bomb, and it would be quite unreasonable to think that those in power (WorldGov and corporations) would not be aware of the fact, and quite likely that they might seize on any opportunity to difuse the situation (especially if it physically reduces the number of those teaming billions by carting them off to Equestria). Not to beat a dead horse, but dystopias are great and customary fodder for allegorical cautionary tails (pony puns purposefully placed.)
Oh, and even the expansion of the barrier could be a part of the "deal between Equestria and the WorldGov" - but exactly how will be a future chapter in one of my fics, so 'nuf said.
NO FAIR SENDING ME TO TV TROPES, the black hole of time and internet space. This time I got out with only three articles read, but don't ever do that again!!!!
Comparing anything to Hitler or Nazi Germany is an invitation to Godwining and worse, and generally the end of rational discourse. And blaming people for getting emotional about it is like getting mad at gravity - so please take my advice and just don't do it. Not if you're really serious about engaging in rational discourse.
But as to refusing to see TCB fics as allegorical is another point on which we will have to agree to disagree. As far as I'm concerned, all these stories in LMC:FIM are allegorical fiction. There ain't no ponies, there ain't no magic, there ain't no Conversion Bureaus and ALL the protagonists AND antagonists in these stories are people going through life and doing what they need to drive, thrive and survive.
However I have to say that in these discussions, you have raised a number of issues regarding a realistic portrayal of a "pony civilisation with technology that to us seems magic." I already have a few new ideas buzzing round in my head.
One final point, regarding Chatoyance. A lot of people feel it is unfair how she has had to bear the brunt of anti-TCB flames. When two people argue, it's an argument. When many go after a single individual, it is persecution. Even if you disagree with her stories and the messages you read into them, please temper your discourse with her. How would you feel if every TCB fan and/or author spammed you, and sent you threats on a daily basis? Yet I think we've established that several of the things that bothered you about TCB are general to the genre, and not specific to Chat's fiction.
I'm asking you to extend your love of rational discourse even to those with whom you disagree severely. You might find that harmony breeds friendship, and that is really what the brony community is about. (Dafaddah gets off soap box and hands out free hugs and packages of cheese curds.)
One final-final point: Dude, write something. You're obviously thinking deeply about this. This is THE community for you to try and develop your writing skills. You were able to pound out several rather extended arguments. For better or worse you have now engaged with it. Why don't you try it with prose?
304676
I'd love to, however her demonisation of the question "Why?" signals to me an unwillingness to participate in such. Hence the jabbing.
It's not really helping isn't it... All right, no more jabbing.
"Human Nation". Now that's funny. I can't remember any TCB fic ever pulling that off. Mostly they're joining the great equestrian empire under the leadership of the perfectly infallible Celestia. I'll stand on the premise that an allegory is bullshit if you have to explain it to the reader. Author intent is one thing, what the story conveys by itself is another.
See, there's a thin line between being anti-militaristic and borderline misanthropy and Chatoyance has clearly crossed it. I've read Catch 22 and liked it, but I don't remember it being as venomous as Chatoyance's work.
All right. Maybe I didn't word myself properly last time. Again, not an native English speaker so bear with me. Humanity is flawed, but we can change on our own accord. We don't need no potion to do that for us. Change like that should happen as a result of a concious decision. Ponification forces it and also rewrites our very basic instincts effectively killing the human underneath.
Yhm. How about those who are ponified by force. Did they choose it too? Did they choose to get their worldview forcibly rewritten? Doesn't walking away happy from such an ordeal scream brainwashing to you?
Like religion you say? You mean it's just like abandoning reason in return for a dogma based worldview and slavery to ignorance? Embarking on missions to force more into submission? Yeah, you're right. I can see the similarities.
Yeah, but there are good dystopias and bad dystopias. Ever heard of something called Suspension of Disbelief? You see, a good dystopia, like Deus Ex for example, works because it's plausible. TBC isn't a good dystopia because the situation of the world before ponies appear tends to be ridiculously bad. 98% unemployment throughout the whole world? Seriously? You don't have to be an economist to realise such world has no logical right to exist. Much less survive for more than 5 minutes. Suspension of disbelief if gone. This and other logical fallacies make many TCB settings nonsensical. What's the point of a cautionary tale if it's setting has absolutely no anchor in reality.
Oh, that wasn't TvTropes this time. Just cracked. Which may be even worse.
LMC:FIM? What's that? Don't remember stumbling upon it.
Well then a lot of people are obviously forgetting her patronizing comments on other people's stories and censorship of any criticism on her own pages. It's less about TCB than it is about her general attitude. I don't agree with sending her threats however I'm not honestly surprised it happened. She should have seen it coming.
I'd feel sorry for them because I'd be calling the police immediately. Threats can result in a fine or up to 2 years in jail.
That's because I was keeping the discussion that way. I didn't want it to lean towards specific fics too much. Towards Chat's fiction I'd be much more merciless. (Ten Minutes: Aftermath I happen to find particularly insulting)
Like I said. I'd love to, but they don't seem to be willing to receive. (or are afraid to)
Nahh... Probably not going to happen. Why? Well I apparently suffer from really low self esteem when it comes to creative writing. I have a setting I've been working on for a few years, an idea for a story, and I think garbage might be more worthwhile, so yeah... Not going to happen... Maybe... Don't expect anything.
That's it for now. It's 2AM.
-Valumior
309597
In reponse to Chatoyance's blog on the word "why" and your comment above, here is the response I posted in her blog to someone else asking the same question. (I am quoting myself here!
)
This reply will be posted on mine and chatoyance's blog posts.
311831
As a reader, I have to say that nobody cares about authors' intent. What matters is what the story conveys by itself, because if the author really has to explain what was their intent, then it's bad writing. For the metaphor to work the story has to hint at it. If the author really needs to explain that there was a metaphor there, then it means that his story didn't convey it properly, that he couldn't convey it properly. Although explaining the the story outside of the story may sometimes work, if the authors' explanation doesn't match up with reader experience at all, or worse, feels forced upon the reader, then they have all right to call bullshit on the author.
As to what's happening to Chatoyance. No one really believes in her reasoning behind TCB because of 2 things:
1) It doesn't match up to reader experience at all AND feels forced upon them. In the end it makes it look like she's throwing last-minute justifications of the atrocities in her stories.
2) No one really believes in her honesty any more. Countless times we've seen her insultingly patronizing remarks towards people who consider being destroyed by incorruptible pure ponies a bad thing. And now I'm finding out she used to threat people who dared to criticise her with death. Suddenly I find her complaining about threats towards her hypocritical to say the least. I'm at a loss for words at such shameful behaviour.
The question WHY is only dangerous to those who refuse to answer it, because the truth might ruin their perfectly crafted image based on lies. That's why I believe its our right to ask WHY an demand answer. No, I dare say It's OUR DUTY to ask it.
Wheller wrote (copypasted from chatoyance's blog):
Truer words could not be said. This is the main reason why we think the proposed metaphor to TCB is bullshit. Sadly Chatoyance has declared any instanced of ponies acting less than perfect and the whole of season 2 NON CANON LOL.
Which brings me to another issue. See, when writing fanfiction one does not create an entirely new setting, but works with an existing one. You can't declare some parts of the setting you don't agree with non canon and imply it's the same. The ponies in TCB fics are not the same ponies we came to know and love from the show. Instead we get some twisted mockeries that pretend to be them. That's disgusting. Is this what you want TCB authors? To make us hate the ponies? To make us disgusted by them?
EDIT: It seems that my mirror post is getting insta deleted from chatoyance's blog. How very mature.
309597
312873
I have to say that I am very surprised you would make the claim that the author's intent means nothing! Even in the limited scope of MLP:FIM (I typed it right this time!) there are all sorts of different stories where the authors intent could be to entertain, teach, arouse, troll, enrage... the possibilities are endless. Now if human communications were perfect, it might be fair to say that the author's intent should be obvious, but:
1) The effectiveness and accuracy human communications are very much affected by education, cultural background, attitude and even emotional state. Every reader interprets a story differently (as you yourself referred to in your own attempts at writing.) People will rarely get 100 percent of the author's intent clear. Words and their meanings change from one person to the next as they are subject to each inviduals filtering and understanding: experiments such as the "telephone game" make this abundantly clear. BTW, my own native language is NOT english, and in the study of english I have seen this principle demonstrated time and again.
2) Sometimes the context of the written work make the author's intent crystal clear - such as a series of articles in a magazine, or an anthology. But on sites such as FIMFiction everything is thrown together. There are clues from the tags, or sometimes from the groups or folders, but even the story synopsi are often written to attract readers and don't actually disclose anything about the story in a substantial sense.
3) Sometimes authors want their intent to be ambiguous because it adds an element of depth to the story that some readers enjoy working out. (Ex. The Story of Pi, or for that matter my fic Mankind Tirumphant - Relic, where I am purposefully leaving it unclear whether Celestia is sane or not, and that parts of the story might only be playing out in her imagination.)
To say that the author's intent should always be be evident is asking the authors to be perfect communicators, and puting all the burden of reading on them, something that in every single class on litterature and language that I've attended (in four different languages) is described as a lazy way to read and a practical guarantee of missing the point.
Again, it's not fair to blame Chatoyance for everything that you don't like about TCB. As to her own personal adjustments to the basic TCB scenarios, those may also have been used specifically to explore the dramatic possibilities they raise in the context of the story.
There is no excuse for death threats. I have only been aware of this flame war for the last few months, and I don't know all the history, but in a matter this serious a person has to be very cautious to read carefully and not jump to conclusions.
Read the quote: it does not say that the person who wrote the blog would kill the "Solomon" person nor was there any threat expressed towards him. In fact it blatantly stated that people make extreme comments under anonymity that they would never make in a context where their identity was know because they feared the consequences. Keep in mind that these are consequences which Chatoyance HAS faced because she has expressed her views openly without hiding her identity. And yes, she HAS received direct threats to her life for holding those opinions.
The exchange you linked was certainly not a great moment in Internet philosophical discourse. But it was NOT a death threat. However, statements like that are simply way too open to interpretation especially when peoples' emotions are hot and when they are taken out of context.
"Why" is a tool, and like any tool it can be either used wisely or severely abused. I stand by my answer to you above. OUR DUTY as human beings is to get to the truth AND to respect others in the process of getting to it. Ask yourself this question: is getting to the truth by acting like a bully acceptable or not? I have seen people abuse the "WHY" word time and again. It was not because of duty or the search for the truth (although they might rationalize it that way way to themselves,) it was just trying to hurt someone using words.
I agree with many of the points made in the comment on the nature of MLP:FIM the show. But to insist that all fics follow the canon ONLY? Well, kiss goodbye to ALMOST ALL the fanfics out there! Or do you imagine all the shipping, clopping, crossovers, HiE and ALL OCs have no place in MLP:FIM fanfiction? Oh, come-on!
Let's leave the canon stuff to Hasbro - after all, they OWN it. Dude, just ask people who actually write stories on FIMFiction if they would be happy to write under those restrictions. I can tell you that as an author, I want to use the established setting of the MLP:FIM world - but I want to write something NEW - not just regurgitate old episodes!
And what is this about again singling out Chatoyance for her dissatisfaction with parts of the MLP:FIM cannon? The discussion on how each new episode follows/enhances/breaks the canon is held live on EQD as each episode is being aired. It's hardly fair to accuse one person of being solely responsible for TCB (no matter how much you disagree with it) or for not liking some or all of season 2 - the parties involved number in the thousands!
Look, I have written non-TCB and TCB stories. Even some anti-TCB folks have said they like my TCB fics, so there is perhaps some wiggle-room for TCB stories to avoid some of the aspects you said you didn't like above. It obvious from some of your statements in this blog that you have strong opinions that give you problems with TCB. We have been involved in this exchange long enough that I can rather safely make the following two observations:
1 - You have a very strict and narrow definition of what you consider acceptable use of the MLP:FIM franchise. That's OK. It's how you feel. You don't want anyone to ruin what you love. But please keep in mind that many people (myself included) have a much broader view, which is daily expressed on fanfiction sites such as FIMFiction. And that's OK too. It's how we feel, and I hope you can respect that.
2 - You have fixated on Chatoyance as the embodiment of everything you don't like on FIMFiction. That simply isn't fair. Of course you might have specific issues with her stories, but she is being blamed for things that she did not conceive and in some cases is only peripheraly associated with. Be careful when you see that happenning: it is easy to jump on a bandwagon, just remember that as long as you're in the wagon someone else is driving and you may not like its destination (the history of the 20th century is littered with examples!)
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Hmmm... Maybe you're right. But it doesn't change the fact that the metaphor you're trying to sell me feels forced beyond belief. And that does happen if the intent proclaimed by the author doesn't appear to relate to the story at all. And that's the main problem I'm talking about. Inconsistency.
The MLP:FIM canon provides a very open setting to ADD things. But there's a difference between adding and REMOVING stuff from it. I'm not saying you can't remove small parts to create some AU setting, but TCB, with the most egregious example being Chat's work, tends to remove so much from the established canon that it stops remotely resembling FIM. The only thing that remains are names. Just names. The personalities are different, the setting is different, only names remain the same, nothing else. Can this really be considered a fanfiction based on FIM? The site's name is FimFiction. I'm not sure some of those TCB stories belong on this site anymore.
If you remember my original post you'd notice a certain statement at the end of it. My truly greatest issue with TCB are the people behind it. And Chatoyance is their damned banner carrier. She is true reason why I despise TCB so much. She's arrogant, full of herself, and honestly believes anyone not appreciating her is mentally retarded. You claim her to be one of many, but in her own view she the one and only true TCB author. She protects her morally rotten work with religious fervour. She openly mocks those who oppose her idea that a godlike being like her Celestia is exempt from morality and has full right to commit genocide as she fits without any repercussions whatsoever. If she claims to have lost friends thanks to TCB maybe she should take it as a hint that what she's doing is not exactly right. Chatoyance isn't the embodiment of what I don't like on fimfiction, she's the embodiment of all that's wrong in the world. And I'm being vocal about it because unlike some here, I still have my ability to tell the difference between right and wrong, and I REFUSE TO STAND ASIDE AND DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.
Breaking news. Life isn't fair. It never was.
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Again, read the posting from Chatoyance carefuly. She does NOT say that hers is the only valid version of the TCB, this is her vision of trying to make a consistent narrative of it. She invites others to use it if they want to, or not.
To say that "Chatoyance is the embodiment of everything that is wrong in the world" is simply the least rational statement I have seen on the situation. I for one can think of a lot of things that are far worse: corrupt politicians, physical violence, theft, prejudice, rape... the list goes on.
Your entire conclusion paragraph is an emotional listing of your perceptions and feelings, and that is all it comes down to. Listing your feelings as facts does not make them so. And quick frankly, others in the world also have the ability to tell right from wrong, and perhaps their conclusions will differ from yours. And sometimes they will be right.
Also, I hope you are not claiming that your sense of right and wrong is absolutely correct all the time, because thinking that way has led to the worst atrocities of the 20th century. It is the foundation of intolerance, and thinking that way will not only hurt you but also the people around you.
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So you're implying that advocating genocide of an entire species is far better? I don't know where that stands on your scale of right and wrong but I can't really imagine anything worse.
I see. Then I invite those others to explain to me why the extinction of the human race is such a wonderful thing. Perhaps there's something off with my perception of right and wrong. Enlighten me please.
I don't claim to have some kind of morality license. I firmly believe however that anyone claiming one or attribute it to someone, has some serious issues.
What am I supposed to think about statements like THIS, and that's without mentioning stomping on free will few comments later. Free will is something I value as much if not more than life itself. What am I supposed to think about someone who tries to justify taking it from others. Even tolerance should have it's limits. For there are things that should never ever be tolerable.
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We both agree that genocide is a very terrible crime. Where we fundamentally don't agree is in whether TCB stories are representative of it. The main issues are that we hold VERY different opinions on the consequences of ponification on a person's identity, sense of self and free will, whether such a convert is still human in any meaningful sense, whether they were forced into it or were able to exercise free will according to their conscience, and what are the roles played by the royal princesses in the entire process. We also do not agree on the whether these stories fall into the category of allegorical fiction or straight fiction, and whether FIMFiction is an appropriate venue for such stories (allegorical or not.)
As to your closing comments, yes there are some things that should not be tolerated: intolerance for one, persecution and bullying are others. One thing is clear, one person's misbehavior is NEVER an excuse for another's. If a person is truly devoted to rationality and civil behavior then that will be demonstrated by their actions and words. If they respond to intolerance, persecution and bullying (whether real or perceived) by themselves becoming intolerant, persecuting another or engaging in bullying, then how are they any better than the target of their ire?
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I'm beginning to have an impression you're dodging or outright ignoring some of my points.
Again I ask. What about the existence of PER and those who are forcefully ponified in TCB? You seem to be forgetting about those.
While in other setting it may differ, but Chatoyance admitted her ponification potion is rewriting the mind of the victim. That's admitting it's brainwashing.
TCB is a perfectly straight fiction, no allegories attached. And it's almost insultingly blatantly advocating genocide.
As to whether it belongs on FIMFiction. As I said, the site's name is FIMFiction, and most TCB stories, especially Chatoyance's have nothing to do with FIM at all. The whole characterisation of ponies has been thrown away and replaced with something twisted and monstrous. Gigantic parts of the setting have been thrown away. TCB Equestria is Equestria in name only, nothing remotely related to the original is left. So yes, I question whether these stories truly belong here.
So you're suggesting I should be tolerant towards those who's preaching that being killed by someone superior is acceptable? No. Zero tolerance for preaching genocide.
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I have answered every comment directly. If I don't agree with something you said I state it clearly. When you have done to same towards me II have accepted that your opnion is different and I have not accused you of dodging the questions. Your said you wanted to have a rational discussion, I have kept my side of this agreement.
As to the PER, even in TCB they are an agency acting outside the sanction of Equestrian authority. They are a terrorist group and what they do is a crime and is depicted that way.
As I have MANY times related, we do NOT agree on the extent to which ponification changes the identity, sense of self, or even innate humanity. I DO NOT agree with YOUR conclusion that MLP:FIM stories (or even TCB stories in particular) cannot be allegories, or that TCB stories describe a genocide. Again we have discussed this at length above. I am not ignoring your points, I am DISAGREEING with them, in the same way that you (and here at least I have the courtesy of not accusing you of avoiding my arguments) disagree with mine.
WHY are you putting words in my mouth? In all of our discussions so far, every time that I have interpreted what I thought you said I clearly admited it up front put a disclaimer to that effect. I expected the same courtesy from you and I find it dissapointing that you would engage in that practice.
I say nothing of the sorts. In fact I have said multiple times that I am adamantly opposed to genocide and would never support its advocacy. What we dissagree on is the TCB advocates genocide. You have not been able to convince me, just as I have not been able to convince you to accept my opinion. It appears that our positions on that fundamental issue are irreconcilable. The best we can do at this stage is agree to disagree.
We started this discussion in a calm, rational fashion. As I don't see where else we can go with this I hope we will be able to close it in a calm, rational fashion as well.
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Not exactly, but I give you the benefit of doubt and assume you just accidentally overlooked it.
So you say that PER is a terrorist organization and what they're doing is a crime. Does this mean you see forced ponification as a crime? Simple question, simple answer. Yes or No?
Well that's not my conclusion. I'm not saying that MLP:FIM stories cannot be allegories. I'm saying that any allegory proposed in TCB feels so forced and fake that I simply cannot believe them. TCB doesn't feel like it has an allegory, it doesn't also feel like it has any relation to FIM any more. And trying to force it just adds insult to the injury.
Well, I did some research and I have to admit that it's a thing that varies writer to writer since people started reconstructing the genre and are trying to remove all those unfortunate implications. Like in Cloudhammer's verse which leaves the mind intact (and thank you for that, cause it makes it readable). However in this case I'd like to point to the biggest offender.
Quote Chatoyance:
It doesn't really matter that ponification removes something we may or may not be better off, what matters is that it removes something. No matter the intentions it's still brainwashing. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Removing the ability to do evil lessens the worth of good. Who deserves more respect? The ones who resisted the urge to do bad and choose the right thing despite the fact that it would benefit them more and they knew there would be no consequences whatsoever. Or the ones who in the same situation don't have the ability to choose at all.
Empathy is unique to humanity, nature itself knows no empathy, nature is as kind as it is cruel. Kindness is our own invention. Every time a human is being kind, it's because they choose to. Modern society is taking kindness for granted, we have lessened the value of kindness, in the end we stop perceiving it at all making the world look bleak. This is not the case. Instead of bickering on the state of the world, some people should learn to appreciate what we have a bit more, or if they really have to bicker about it they should do something to change it first, otherwise it makes them look like entitled brats.
Again I'll point to the biggest offender.
Quote form Chatoyance's work:
I remember that we agreed that placing an expanding barrier that is going to Kill'em All deliberately is an act of war. Chatoyance has provided proof of it in her own work. She also portrayed Celestia as a omnipotent being who could stop the barrier if she wanted to (if she couldn't it would mean she's not omipotent). So why doesn't she stop the barrier? Because it was a planned action to ponify all humans by force if needed. Deliberate, planned, planet wide genocide. Lets add that to the general tone of her TCB fics suggesting we should be happy about it. I say bullshit. We didn't survive Nazi occupation by accepting it. We didn't resist the communist regime by remaining obedient. What would those who sacrificed their lives to fight oppression say?
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The forced ponifications done by the PER take away the individuals' choice to accept or refuse. That IS a crime in most TCB story plots. the reason this is so is that as ponification is a metaphor for an individual's decision to change their life IT MUST BE VOLUNTARY otherwise it cannot be a symbol of personal will to change. Of course events may force the decision upon the Person in question. In some TCB fics it is just events, in some it is evil, whether human or Equestrian in nature, in some we simply don't know because that is not the point of the story or because the author leaves that ambiguous in order to make the reader think more deeply about the personal transformation of the individual involved.
Then you are singling out TCB stories based on your feelings. Well, most other people have different feelings about this issue. If that is how you feel then just don't read TCB stories. No-one is FORCING you to read TCB stories. However, going further and saying that they should be removed from MLP:FIM based on an opinion is promoting censorship, which as far as I am concerned is a major crime against free will and freedom of expression. You can personally hold the opinion that TCB stories (alone amongst the vast array of stories on FIMFiction) are not allegorical, but if you say that nobody else can hold a different opinion than yours then that is committing both prejudice (applying a standard differently to a specific group) and bullying (refusing to allow others the right of holding opinions different than yours.)
Note that not once in these conversations have I ever denied you the right to hold a different opinion than mine. Tell me, have you paid me the same respect especially in your last three postings?
Did I read this correctly? Did you say that different TCB authors might have different characteristics to their TCB universe? Why is that, do you think? Perhaps it's because they have different issues or ideas or possible solutions to current real-world human problems that they want to illustrate or explore using the flexibility or dramatic tension created in the - you admitted it, now - multiple different TCB universes? BTW - that is why authors use allegorical settings (such as fairy tales, occult, undead, science fiction, and My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic) to tell those stories. As an author on FIMFiction, that is EXACTLY why I use it. In some cases (such as exploration of identity) the TCB setting is great canvas, in other cases it is not. The author has the right to choose, and the reader is free to read it or not.
Also, did you actually state that at least one TCB story was readable? So I guess not all TCB fics are pure evil? Maybe FIMFiction should allow that one to stay, just as an exception to prove the rule? BTW - you never said anything bad about my TCB fics, are they allowed to live in the neighborhood too?
Like any author, Chatoyance has the right to choose various aspects of her TCB setting in order to satisfy the needs of the story she is telling. She has the right to write, you have the right to read them or not. Every person who reads Chatoyance's (or anyone else's fics, for that matter) will make up their own mind about what she is trying to say and EVERY one of them (including you) has the right to their own opinion. But Nobody - AND I MEAN NOBODY!!! - has the right to tell me what I should think. I have already told you many times that I do not agree with you on the basic premises of your arguments. As far as I am concerned - and I am a very well educated person on the topics of literature and history, just to blow my own horn - this is what I think of Chatoyance's fiction:
- Chatoyance's (and TCB and all fairy tales including MLP:FIM) are allegorical fiction. There are no ponies in real life, they are just metaphors for people with a different shape. No Virgina, there is no Santa Claus - he is just a promotional gimmick invented by Coca Cola.
- Because it is allegorical it is simply nonsensical to say it is promoting genocide. Every character involved represents humans, even the ponies. At no time has any specific group of people been singled out to be killed, and ALL the characters who live or die are humans (just like all the pigs and various animals in Orwell's "Animal Farm" are allegorical depictions of humans - in that case the members of communist party.)
- Chatoyance's fiction is mostly concerned with identity in transition or people faced with major decisions affecting their self image. Interesting stuff, and generally quite well written.
- Chatoyance's fictional TCB setting is a dystopia specifically and rather cleverly designed to create awareness of major social, societal and even scientific issues that are at their beginnings TODAY. Perhaps she wishes to get people to think about these issues, and in that way help improve the life of all humanity. In many countries this is considered the greatest value that a writer can bring to society, the capacity for introspection, speculation and exploration of alternatives.
One more thing, most people (and by most here I mean the vast majority) who have read Chatoyance's fiction either think the same way I do, or if they don't, they simply choose not to read any more of her stories. To actively persecute someone based on one's opinion alone is called harassment, and is not considered civilized behavior in most cultures (I have travelled to over 45 different countries in my 50 years, I am rather well educated in human cultures and their differences as well.)
I am sorry, but here I will have to directly contradict you. Over the past twenty years especially, cases of actual kindness and empathy have been well documented in almost all social mammals, including even bats (yes, bats!) Empathy and kindness are not human inventions, and the examples of both in the animal world are all over YouTube, if you don't want to read the scientific litterature on the subject. However, lets take the animal example of kindness and empathy, and before we make heinous accusations against anyone (oh, Chatoyance perhaps comes to mind), consider if what we are doing is either kind or empathic. Empathy is the quality of being to put yourself in another's position and understand how they feel. Maybe if a person is serious about empathy they would express it as tolerance for those who hold different opinions. Especially if these people see serious problems in the world around them and by creating awareness of them they "do something to change it first."
Aaayuup!
Ah, back to Chatoyance. Why didn't Celestia stop the barrier from spreading? I know why in my TCB fics she did not (and since they are both still underway, I'm not going to spill the beans yet, but in my fics, yes there is a very good reason.) As to Chatoyance's fics - in one universe (the one you quoted above) it was to fulfill a promise (made to a human) to give humans souls (and thereby prevent the eternal death of any human who CHOSE it by becoming a pony). By the way, this means that Celestia was trying to prevent the extinction of each individual human, not cause it. At least in that universe.
Of course, every TCB author is free to have different ideas about this, and they do. Using one specific author's stories as a proof that all TCB stories are evil is promoting censorship based on a stereotype, which like most stereotypes is "not likely to be based on rational thought" and nothing less than a form of prejudice.
As you did bring us back to the subject of Chatoyance, you have over the course of these discussions several times presented quotes as proof of her wrong-doing. In all cases these have fallen into two categories:
1) Quotes that were simply misinterpreted, that when actually read carefully said something very different than what you had claimed, or was rather open to interpretation and therfore very short of objective, or
2) Were based on your specific opinion of TCB and have nothing to do with Chatoyance personally, other than that she is the most visible (and prolific) author of TCB fics.
For you to continue using Chatoyance's fics as an example is not helping you make your case. Just the opposite in fact.
As to your closing statements:
People from my country left our safe houses and went to fight, die, and WIN against the Fascists. We went to defend other people's houses and families, not our own. I think you mentioned something about doing a virtuous act when not compelled is the highest of virtue?
We fought the communists and prevented them from trying to take over the world by force.
We have fought oppression as well. How? By not becoming like the Fascists and the Communists. By staying committed to freedom of the person, freedom of expression and freedom from persecution. By fighting prejudice and people who think it is acceptable to prevent those who have different opinions from speaking. And just to be clear, we don't prevent these people from speaking, we just prevent them from trying to shut other people's voices. That is what freedom of speech is really about. We stand firm about what is good in ourselves, not by demonizing others. We have won by being tolerant.
So how is not the existence of an impending all-destroying barrier not an allegory for taking away the choice. Personal will to change? When being destroyed is the alternative this metaphor loses its impact, because X or die is not exactly a good example for motivation. Brings thoughts about the inquisition, and we all know how that turned out.
And it's that ambiguity that allowed me to reach the conclusion how disgusting the premise is.
No-one is forcing some TCB fans and authors to come and taunt any story that doesn't present the ponies in a favourable fashion. No-one is forcing them to come and preach how humanity is bad and we should all feel bad for being human. No-one is forcing them to take a story about heroic sacrifice and twist it to indicate that failure is the only option when fighting against genocide performed by a being that considers themselves superior. So against my better judgement I read a few of their stories and found myself utterly disgusted and with a reason to be vocal about it.
Censorship is one of the reasons I made this rant in the first place. Chatoyance blog post and her attitude up to this point gave me the impression of her attacking free speech so I'm reacting accordingly. As for suggesting that TCB has no place here I was just pointing out one of the rules of this site: "Stories that are not related in any way to the Friendship is Magic universe. Your story must be related to the universe at the time of submission, otherwise it will be rejected." And let's point out I'm not here first one here who suggested such a thing. Chatoance did so here too (sadly she deleted the comment in a vain attempt to hide the fact that she may be wrong about something)
I never explicitly denied you the the right to have different opinions. If you see me pointing out the flaws I see in your assessment as denying your right to have a opinion then I don't see the point of keeping on this conversation.
Yes and it's another problem with TCB. With so many authors trying to reconstruct the setting is making a shitload of inconsistencies, because they still use the "The Conversion Bureau" prefix in the title making it look like it's the same setting. TCB is a mess.
I think it's because they saw how fucked up TCB is are trying to reconstruct the premise. How successfully, it varies.
You really like your allegorical settings do you?
The reader is also free to voice displeasure and criticize the story if they find something wrong with it. Something which is not respected by Chatoyance.
Readable? Well they didn't make me puke from the beginning so that's a start. (No I'm not exaggerating)
If they are related to FIM, yes.
I think so too. That's why I'm being vocal here, because Chatoyance's fiction made me feel like someone is telling me that I should think that genocide is good when performed by truly superior beings. Something that I found disgustingly familiar to something I've heard before...
All right stop right here. You're starting to use "allegorical fiction" as an argument that justifies anything which is bullshit. Just because someone wanted to write something as allegorical doesn't mean that I have to accept an allegory that is being forced upon me. In fact, there are many examples of authors' intent being drastically different from what the public actually read. Just because Chatoyance says that her fiction was written with intent X doesn't mean you are forbidden to find any other meaning beside it. I and many others are clearly reading an acceptance for genocide from her fiction, what was her real intent while writing is not something that matters in the end.
Her dystopia is unfortunately so unrealistic that it throws the willing suspension of disbelief out of the window. And when that happens... Game over.
I'd like to point you to Warwolfs post in another thread as a good counter argument to yours.
So you say the promise made to one man is enough to decide the fate of an entire species? One man holds the moral right to decide the fate of an entire species? This gives some very bad vibes. I'm not even going to mention what it reminds me of.
Ok, I think I should draw a line here. Something I should have done earlier. I have already made a statement about TCB in general. That it's a broken premise. However I also wanted to review Chatoyance's fiction as a standalone. So yeah, It can get mixed up. I really should have drawn the line earlier. My mistake.
Teheran, Yalta, Postdam. That's how you fought? Thank you very much. Thanks for 4 decades of oppression.
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Well, here we stand again with major differences of opinion and interpretations of our own actions as well as those of others. As you stated above:
I agree 100%! You may find any meaning you choose. But what you may not do is say that meaning is the one and only one that the author had in their own mind when they wrote the story. If this is true, then the reader has no grounds to accuse to author of any evil intent.
And I and many, many others do not read these stories as being about genocide. However, to state that the author's intent doesn't matter, well, now I'm flabbergasted. When learning about litterature (or music, or sculpture, or practically ANY of the arts,) the first concern is pretty much always the intent of the creator. Why? Because as you said above, the person reading that story can take any interpretation they want, and that interpretation will be based on their own life experience, cultural background, personal, religious and political doctrines. Everyone has a different background, especially when dealing with people from different culture or a different time. To not take the author's intent into the analysis is essentially dooming the reader to perpetual misunderstandings.
I'll give you an example from religious books. In the new testament of the Bible at one point Jesus makes the statement that "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." Many people take this to mean that rich people cannot get into heaven. In actuality, "the eye of the needle" was the smallest door into the walled city of Jerusalem, being the height of a man. For a camel to get through it had to be unloaded of any goods, made to kneel and crawl on its belly in order to get through that door, and then the goods moved through and reloaded. It was not impossible, it did require a lot of diligence. Of course, without getting the background info it becomes very easy to misinterpret this passage. All this to say that the author's intent matters, in fact it matters supremely, especially if someone is trying to pin a charge of willful intent on the author. Failing this, all the author can be accused of is of being misunderstood.
And as you stated, that is your opinion, which you are entirely free to have. A lot of other people have entirely different opinions, which is also their priviledge.
I have been following the debate on Midnightshadow's post you linked above, so I have read Warwolfs posting as I am sure you have Midnight's. We will not reach a common understanding here, but at least I have to say in both our favours that we have been more civilized and rational about it than most of what I have read in all these TCB vs. Anti-TCB debates, although it is also clear neither of us lacks passion in the defense of our stand.
As to your last statement, I am not from the USA. Don't live there either. There ain't no country that can claim moral superiority over another. My comments to you were to state that resistance to evil can be done without resorting to the tactics of evil. But whenever armies are involved, there is a long history of atrocity. The last 30 years have also proven that this is still the case, even in "civilized" places like the Western World.
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You know that reminded me of a event we had a few years ago. Some authors were asked to write an exam analysing their own work. They failed horribly. Besides proving the ridiculousness of the exam it made me think of something else. What in the end matters more, intent or result?
That doesn't mean they should be exempt from addressing the unfortunate implications the readers present. Refusal to do so paints them in a very bad light. It's escaping from responsibility, and doesn't really help the author's point. Especially if the story in question has some really misanthropic undertones, making the proposed meaning even worse.
Exactly my point. How come in some TCB stories I see ponies exempt from that rule? And Chatoyance not only not denied it, but actually confirmed it to be the case in her stories. What am I supposed to think of that?
What TCB-verse really needs is a fic, that will justify humanity 'flaws', like aggression, cruelty, stubbornness and some other. Actually, our culture is deeply poisoned with Christian doctrine, and when we look on what is our strength, we see flaws. I wander if it may be corrected one day....
Not to stoke any flames, but its time for some things to be said...
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Tolerance is; "Showing willingness to allow the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with."
Going to war ≠ Tolerance.
On the other hand, sometimes tolerance is overrated. Tolerating a genocidal dictator, for example...or tolerating someone promoting prosecution, debasement, or death.
Genocide just so happens to be the worst form of persecution. It is the form of persecution that ends many people's lives!
322296 Now I'm going to rip on Valumior for a second... Shame on you for not pointing this out!
/Second.
Just because its allegorical doesn't mean it can't be promoting genocide, its one group of people against another, the distinction has been made...Ponies Vs. Humans. So, even if everyone that "Lives and dies" are supposed to be symbolically people, that means nothing...Even if it was English Vs Scottish, Norman Vs Saxon, European Vs Native American... (All chosen because I have some relation to them...) Its one group against another, advocating the "superior group's" usage of genocide as a tool against the "inferior group". So, in fact, by being allegorical, it only reinforces the message that genocide is a legitimate moral/ political act.
Really, all this argument does, is remove the speciesist element to the story, not the morally reprehensible notion of genocide...
Which, just for the record is; "The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation."
I'd say that all of humanity is a damned big group of people! (At last count Appx. Seven-Billion and growing...)
Even if the "New-Foals" are still Human (Which I disagree with), then by in allegorical sense, it is; convert or die. Shed your primitive ways and adopt those of your superiors. That sounds very, very close to the racist European mindset during the Imperial-Era, which is still de facto genocide... Humanity does not as a species, a race, or a culture, exist after this point. If we are lucky, we would exist as a footnote in Equestrian history.
Ahh, so much anti-wank in this blog, it's not even funny...
1363652
You necro'd a year old blog post for this?
1364411
Yes!
1368642
Digging up dead threads and discussions just to insult people? Stalking people around the net and trying to insult them just because they don't share your hatred for humanity and aren't sad lumps of self-loathing? That's so pathetic it's not even funny.
Yes, I know what you've been doing recently. I've done my research... Arnfried, right? Started existing on the intenet somewhere around last month. Done nothing but bitch about cops and WoW on twitter. Insulted a few people on deviantart for no apparent reason. Sabotaging TvTropes and getting banned for it... The list goes on.
Arn, why are you acting like that? Are you trying to impress someone? Why are you acting like a little internet bully? Is this who you want be?
"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself."
Is this how you want to be treated? Like a sad internet troll ostracized everywhere he goes? Think about that for a second or a few. In fact, I'm going to help you find time for it by blocking you so you won't bother yourself with pestering me again. Wish you luck on your journey to find happiness enlightenment and all that good shit in life.
1368909
I'm sorry, who almost made someone commit suicide?
You are the bullies here. Not him.
You and ACB are pathetic wastes. Go away, and never return.
Have fun beating people up for being different.
1369091>>1368642
Not me that's for sure.
Also, I believe making new accounts only to harass people is bannable. So your next converstion will be with the mods. Reporting.