Random TSC Confession 2 · 8:37pm Oct 13th, 2015
I sometimes get really defensive about TSC.
I mean, usually the author of the original story each unique chapter is based on and I both put a lot of effort into being able to meet to plan, talk about the plot and characters, explore ideas that can be touched in TSC and write it in a way that gives more insight to both the plot and progression of TSC AND their own story. These things take months and in some cases over a year.
The thing is, it sometimes TSC is absorbed into the canon of the original story as a decision of the original story's author, and it gets to me when people start attacking the idea just because they don't want something different from what they expected to happen. This has recently come up again and again ever since a certain future crossover with TSC was announced in the original's story.
Despite assurances that the chapters happening concurrently to the TSC chapters would not affect their enjoyment, several individuals made a point of bitching about it and downvoting responses to them about how it wasn't what they expected.
Let me put it this way:
Can you watch The Avengers without having watched Captain America, Thor and Iron Man? Yes. Yes you can.
Do you probably get more enjoyment if out of it if you watch all three movies as well or maybe just one? Most likely yes.
So why is it so difficult to understand that TSC is an extra of sorts to each story it crossovers with, or even becomes canon of? Where does the need to jump into the comments and out of your contemptuous ass make remarks on how it's such an awful idea that will ruin the story?
First of all... the story is not yours. To begin with. And second of all... no author is forced into TSC; no author is obliged to make it canon and no author has to put up with people bitching about a decision they've made to also try to bring a bit more enjoyment in some way, shape, or form to their readers.
While I get that TSC is not everyone's cup of tea, just going in and starting so slam it and the author and claiming how "everything's going to hell" or "it's such a bad decision" or "I'm stopping here if you do it!" (That last one is my favorite. Honestly, readers like that are not worth the effort to even look at.) is honestly petty, annoying and sadly has made me lose respect for more than one person already. Not to mention it reads like some petulant child got given caramel instead of chocolate and instead of rolling with it and see if they like it, they throw a tantrum.
What's TSC now?
3467495 The Sweetie Chronicles
Yeah, I had a couple people saying that if I ship an OC in one of my stories and a certain canon character, they would stop reading. I don't get how some people can be so self-entitled as to think someone else's story has to follow their headcanon. No one's paying me to write, nor, I assume, is anyone paying you. If they were, it would be a different story, but unless they send me some money, I'm writing the way I want to write.
This is the sort of thing I hate hearing about in general: people whining about how things are going in a story, or how things WORK in a story. I see this all the time on some of my favorite longer running fics, and some people just. DO NOT. take a. FREAKING! HINT!. This is the AUTHOR'S STORY. If they want to do something that you think breaks the story...fine that's your opinion, go read something else. But DON'T continue to stick around and harp on it long after whatever it is has happened.
This goes double for when the author says magic works this way, or unicorn horns work that way or whatever. The show leaves a lot of stuff like that up in the air, so if something works a certain way in a story, THAT'S HOW THE AUTHOR SAYS IT WORKS, SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT ALREADY! This goes TRIPLE for an AU fic, which can freely toss show cannon out the window because it's an AU. You don't like it, express your opinion ONCE and then either be quiet or go read something else, because there's nothing saying that the author has to change something just because you personally don't agree with it!
The problem for me is that the authors are integrating TSC into a story that was not set up to allow that integration. It then becomes a bizarre, forced and all-too-often derailing tangent to the otherwise coherent plot.
Take, for example, A Heart of Change. As a Sweetie Chronicles chapter, the crossover was alright, and was a needed look at the aftermath of the terrible events of the Immortal Game chapter. A decent enough chapter, all in all. As a Heart of Change chapter, however, it came out of nowhere, and prompted nothing so much as a response of "well, that happened, I guess." There was no in-story reason for it to be there, and it introduced complications into the characters lives that made absolutely no sense. I've been told that this was what the author was going to do anyway, but it looks like it's the crossover itself that created the mess, and the story suffers for it. Now the readers (and characters!) have to think about the potential universe-hopping that can go on in Heart of Change, when such a thing was not even hinted at being possible before. The narrative was compromised from the moment TSC!Sweetie made an appearance, and the literary gymnastics needed to fix it will either take over the story or leave the reader wondering why it happened at all.
That's the fear when these things are announced. I don't doubt that you and your co-authors do your best and work very hard to make these crossovers enjoyable, but it's not your skill that is at issue. It is the fundamental incompatibility of the two intersecting narratives. In a story where universe-hopping is already an established part of the narrative, it would barely be remarked upon. In a story that doesn't do that, it's a new element that can throw the rest out of balance and cause an otherwise great story to fall flat.
I find these behind the scenes comments quite interesting not a lot of authors do this, the only other story that I have insight in is The Koprulu sector.
3467501
Are you paying them to read it?
If not, can't they stop if you write something they don't like? They don't have to follow your headcanon, either.
3467567 I never said they couldn't.
If we're discussing TSC becoming canon in the work of the original, then the analogy is a bit backwards. It would be more like watching the three Iron Man movies, when Avengers 1 happens between Iron Man 2 and 3. At the start of Iron Man 3, Tony is suffering PTSD as a result of Avengers 1, so the Avengers 1 movie clearly had an impact on the solo movies and fits into their narrative.
It's a valid opinion for someone to say "The inclusion of Iron Man in the Avengers is now forcing me to watch all this extra content in the Marvel Universe, when all I originally signed up for is Tony's story." Yes, Tony's story is enriched by the plotlines of Avengers 1 and 2, and most people enjoy this, but no one should feel forced to watch Avengers to understand what's going on in Iron Man 3 (and consequently, feeling forced to watch Cap'n, Thor, and the Hulk to understand what's going on in Avengers) if they don't wish to. However, this puts onus on the writers of Iron Man to ensure that Iron Man 3 can still be enjoyed without having seen the other movies, and that the inclusion of Avengers references does not wreck the lore of the Iron Man movies. (As an example of the when the latter point goes bad: taking a franchise like Spider-Man, where it's special and weird that he's a mutant, and then crossing it over with X-Men, where everyone and their mum is a mutant. The authors would need to figure out, both during and after the crossover, how this makes sense in the lore.)
It's also a valid opinion for someone to say "I don't like the direction that Avengers 1 pushed the franchise into." Iron Man 3's direction was heavily impacted by the plot of Avengers 1. Tony was already in a destructive spiral in 1 and 2, but due to the push in Avengers, 3 had him at a low, shell-shocked state that carried through into Avengers 2. It's valid to say "I didn't personally enjoy that character arc." Everyone's tastes are different.
What isn't okay is to extrapolate this into anger at the authors of Iron Man and/or Avengers. There's a huge difference between "I didn't enjoy X" versus "X angers me! Through my anger, I am entitled." The authors will feel bad if some of the readers are turned off (authors rarely try to deliberately alienate their readers), but it is still their story, guided by their creativity, and they are free to do with it as they please. A reader can stop following the story, leave a comment or even a downvote, but they should not badger the authors. If the reader has a different idea of "how the story should have gone", they're welcome to write their own; the story that they're currently reading is the creative vision of the authors.
3467617
How is them not wanting to read your fanfic more self-entitled than you not following their headcanon? Those seem equally reasonable to me, is all.
3467567 If they don't want to follow a headcanon for a story and they're going to bitch about it when it works for the story, they really have no need to read it though. I mean, they can always read something else, or just dislike and move on instead of trying to lecture an author on how things should be done their way.
3467515 I can't argue that the effect on Heart of Change was felt very strongly, but at the same time, every single chapter of TSC is different, and doesn't work the same way. When the authors are telling the readers that the chapters are not going to be such an obvious influence, then it's in my opinion, little more than whining at things not happening how they want it to happen... because they're not giving it a chance. It's one thing to say: "Hey, it worries me a little, but I'll see what happens." and a completely different thing to say: "It's ruined because there's no way it can work in a positive way!"
The second? That's bitching.
3467621 I said they are self-entitled for insisting someone elses story has to follow their headcanon. I never said they're self-entitled for not wanting to read it.
But... Everybody hates caramel, right?
What do you mean, no? 
I don't believe you... 
Just think about it: has life never screwed you over like that? The thing you wanted the most - sweet, milky, dark chocolate, got replaced with gooey, sticky, godawful candy the colour of crap...
I mean... It could ruin your day, if not the entire childhood.
.
..
...
Right?
I see this as being similar to the problem with vote-based stories. Generally speaking, an author can take a story… pretty much anywhere they want, and do so believably—yet, the reader's engagement and willing suspension of disbelief is wholly rooted in believing that events lead from one to the next in a single, immutable sequence of events. The instant the author pulls back the curtain and admits the power they have to introduce seemingly random events (because, let's face it, voting-based stories may as well be random, if not purposefully contradictory) is the instant the reader tends to ask, “Well, what's the point, then?”
Sudden crossovers are… well, they're similar. They feel random from the perspective of existing readers. They're introduced via author fiat rather than any particular cause and effect, and so there's a moment that the reader is taken out of the story and just has to ask… why? All of their perceptions, all of their involvement and guesses about what's going to happen next are thrown into question if not outright invalidated, and—unlike when it happens due to a coup or twist—there can be no foreshadowing and the reader typically has no attachment to what is being introduced.
I'm not saying crossovers are bad, mind, just that they're… a problem. That is, an actual, legitimate issue that has an effect on the story and can't simply be vindicated by an assertion of authorial agency, particularly since such assertions have the same negative effect on reader engagement (which is to say, they only make things worse.)
I wish I had a solution, but honestly, I'm no expert. So far as I can see, all you can really do is for the host writer to have the crossover fall in the right place, have enough of the reader's trust to overcome the initial reaction, and finally, of course, to deliver a solid addition to the story. Some readers will likely complain regardless, but… there's just not much you can do about that.
3467503
Even worse when they can see that it's an AU, the detail is one that canon was already vague about (like how magic works or the nature of changelings), and the author still has to hear about how they screwed up and changelings do/don't have the capacity for independent thought or whatever it is that set them off. Did you see lordofmyth throwing his tantrum in the Mente Materia comments? The entire thing boiled down to him insisting that XCOM psionics are not magic (the prequel story repeatedly said they were, as did Mente Materia), that the Elements could completely stop the alien invasion (Discord explained why it wouldn't work, specifically so the audience would know why it wouldn't), and then getting mad when people tried to explain these things to him.
I think that was the same story where he tried to argue that an "AU tag" only lets you change details like decisions characters made or events that happened in the show, but you still have to use what rules of magic have been established and can't make ponies cruel and so on. Apparently he doesn't get the meaning of alternate universe.
3467623
I agree, but that's the solution they're proposing.
If a reader says "I'm going to stop reading if X happens," the right answer is "okay." They're not being self-entitled (or if they are, they aren't very good at it,) they're rightfully entitled to their time. You're not entitled to their page view. You can write the story you want to write, but if you care about that particular reader (or others like them) you need to avoid pissing them off.
I've seen enough people wondering why people don't read or stopped reading their stories to know that authors aren't any happier when people just walk away without saying anything.
3467656 Granted, but I'm not talking about suggestions, I'm talking at the orders, threats of abandoning a story, and such. I mean, if a reader asks how magic works in a story because they're confused, or draws up a theory, it's different than: "You're wrong! It's not like that!" after attempts to explain how things simply are slightly (or considerably) different in your story.
3467642 Indeed, and its a bit of what 3467619 said as well... there's no need for the anger and such. The irritation comes from all the additional effort to make it so that regular readers don't need to read TSC to continue reading the story without no ill effects. Will they be missing some character development and insight? Yes, but it's stuff that is accessible because TSC facilitates it into happening and would simply happen in the original story.
They can feel cheated, true, but again, the original story alone doesn't lend itself to explore those things, and without TSC, they wouldn't be able to at least choose whether to find out or not.
3467674
Seriously, Wanderer, think about it. Threats to do what? Orders backed up by what authority? Readers can realistically do three things if they no longer like your story:
They can stop reading.
They can downvote.
They can engage in criticism in the form of comments or blog posts.
That's the most a reader can do to you. If that's enough to make you change your story, I'm not about to judge, people write for different reasons and things like popularity are a perfectly good reason to write for free. I'm also not going to judge if you stick to your guns, and write even if those people leave and downvote and leave comments you don't like; in that case you're obviously writing because you have a story to tell. Also a perfectly good reason to write.
If you're claiming that you need to uphold the artistic integrity of your story above all else, and then you complain that people are telling you they don't like it and will stop reading/downvote/say mean things... I kinda judge. Either write for popularity, or write for yourself, but don't get upset if you don't get both.
3467674
3467706
Would I be correct in saying that it's merely an issue of tone?
Reader A leaves a comment saying "Ehhh, this new character arc is going in a dark direction. I signed up for the light 'n fluffy of the earlier chapters. Sorry, I'm out."
Reader B leaves a comment saying "OMGF U MORAN, APPULJACK WOULN'T DO THAT. SHE WOULD'VE DONE X, Y, AND Z. IF YOU DON'T TAKE DOWN CHAPTER AND REWRITE I'M GONNA STOP READING!!!!"
Reader C just stops reading, without justifying themselves.
The end result is identical: all three readers stopped reading your story, and they're well within their right to stop. But Reader B was needlessly aggressive and rude about it, attacking the reader and the story before making their choice.
The Train Wreck Explorers did point out a lot of issues in stories and gave detailed reviews. But the group was also disbanded for good reason.
3467758
I can totally get on board with that rundown. But I think "I really hate OC shipping. If you end up shipping Applejack with Soul Killer here, I'm going to stop reading." isn't anywhere near the line of aggression.
In fact, if I was reading a story and thought it was going there, I might write that.
3467771
Agreed, your example sounds much closer to Reader A than Reader B in my head. I as the author can be disappointed to lose you, because I feel that the AJ/Soul Killer relationship will help explore some interesting parts of Applejack's character. But at the end of the day, I respect that you have your tastes, and I can't twist your arm into reading something you don't want to read.
3467787
I'll also add that I'd never do that, and would think someone was rude to do that, on a story that had been described from the start as being AJ/Soul Killer. In that case, the author has no investment in the reader and the reader has no investment in the author, and they should just leave it like that.
Well its your story. in general if i dont like how a particular story is going then ive said so without asking the author to change it. I give them feedback so they know why i stopped via pm. I have pointed out to authors that a certain direction they are going is going to be a hard sell and just see what they do to sell the point to me half the enjoyment for me is to see if the author does have clever less than obvious method in use. I dont tell them do it my way or imma leave.
For instance an author had his character who recently developed magic power of high potency challnge celestia to a duel. The prearrangements he set in chapters preceeding the duel gave away that he intended his characyer to win. I was of the opinion that it would be a hard sell. Given that 6 months prior he would not be able to sneeze without blowing half a city block. I couldn't find any possible way that would go the way the author obviously intended. My thought were this was like George Foreman after retirement fighting against a Highschool boxer in his weight class. Celestia's Wisdom and experience outweighing the original character's own ability.
I still follow the story and the author did present a sound means of giving the OC a good strategy. He had the oc pull the air down dropping celestia from using flight. Then he just went and put it out in a less than clever manner tia puts up a sheild he starts pounding on it ising magically augmented blows. Sheild dropped. It was a barely plausible victory for the oc. I dont think it was a sound bit by the writer but i can deal since pulling the air was clever.
3467653
I hate to name names, but since you brought him up first, lordofmyth is one of the main offenders of stuff like this. Besides Mente Materia, he seems to CONSTANTLY argue EVERY! LITTLE! DETAIL! of The Chase with its author kudzuhaiku. And even after being told multiple times, by multiple people that this isn't his story, he still continues to try and argue why kudz is supposedly doing it wrong. And I'd bet that he does stuff in the comments of other stories too.
Funnily enough, for someone with such a solid opinion of how fics should work...he doesn't have any to his name. Heck, you can't get him to post using proper capitalization most of the time. He claims it's because he doesn't consider comments 'important enough' to use proper grammar. I told him at one point that if he doesn't care enough about his comments to format them right, why should we care about what they say?
I'm not disagreeing with the general gist of your blog—people who make a big show of bitching about what they don't like do suck—but this point is dead wrong. A story *does* belong to its readers, just as much as it belongs to the author.
Just as the story exists in the mind of the author, so too does it exist in the minds of its readers, and it can't be taken back. People can take different meanings from it, and everyone will visualize it differently. Each reader's experience is (and should be) unique.
And just as the author has the right to define the direction of the story, so too does the reader have the right to redefine it according to their own desires. Hell, that's practically the entire basis and appeal of fanfiction.
Of course, this amounts to practically nothing in the full context of your post, but I think it's an important thing for authors to remember. We don't create stories except in our own minds. What we do for our readers is give them the tools to create their own version of the story.
/soapbox
It's really sad when someone you thought you knew to be cool reveals themselves to be so closed-minded, petty, and unworthy of respect.
3467940 In a way you're right, of course, however, the reader is not the one writing the story. Sure the investment and attention and everything a reader does is important in its own way, but the reason a reader reads something past that first chapter is because they found something in that story... and that story is not being told by them. A reader can express their opinions about it, but they shouldn't try and dictate where the story is going. That's my point when I say a story does not belong to the reader.
3467501 i hate OC canon character shipping on principal because i expect the worst from it (unless it's a troll fic for some reason it doesin't bother me there) but otherwise i agree with what you said :D
3468035 The problem is they aren't done right. Most are rushed, and not very realistic. This is because most of it is just wish fulfillment, with their OC being a self-insert. While I do have a self-insert story, it pokes fun at self-inserts. It leans towards shipping with three of the mane6, but ends up shipping with another OC. This shipping, between an OC and a canon character, has been being set up for 37 chapters, and still has several more chapters before it happens.
It has other ships, too, as it follows the Mane6 and several others over the course of several years. while some of them are canonxcanon, I made a couple OCs to ship others with. When you have a story that goes on for so long, and refuse to create OCs, you cripple yourself. You either have to ship them with the very limited number of canon characters, or leave them single for the rest of their lives.
Also using background ponies doesn't count, as background ponies are just OCs with canon skins.
P.S. OCs are not by nature bad. After all, Twilight Sparkle, Rainbow Dash, Pinkie Pie, Fluttershy, Applejack, and Rarity are all OCs of Lauren Faust.
I myself am looking forward to the Mente Materia crossover. Even if I end up not liking TSC parts... so what? There's a ton of chapters, and something tells me that this crossover won't have THAT huge an effect on the overall, anyway. Besides, it means I get more Mente Materia, and that's just candy.
3467674 Um, sounds like people you generally don't give two hoots about.
Is it about giving Sweetie changeling powers? I don't see how someone can be flipping their turd over just anything. Guessing latest update has some Sweetie x OC loving? I can't think of anything else or how far back this pot began to boil before overflowing.
I'll have to check if I missed an update to TSC. I can't recall anything that felt 'off' about the story. But a reader demanding or threatening to leave over how you want to write your story?
storage.ultima-java.com/qeeko/mlp/doorbitch.jpg
3467503 Giving suggestions or stating an opinion as long as it's not some demand is just fine. Acting entitled to how a story should progress, not so much.
Also, it's up to the author to decide what they feel offended to. If you don't like something of someone's post, but the author hasn't replied or stopped them from posting, then why put attention to something they aren't bothering to address? Now, if you catch someone harassing an author and bashing him and all that stuff really badly, rather then get involved just report them.
Kudz gets lots of haters. He could not care less who bitches about his story. That means no one else should. Just enjoy the story, you're not there to police the comments.
Just my two unasked for bits, anyways.
This is very off topic, but it's something I've wondered about for a long while: What exactly is the criteria for you choosing a story for TSC? I mean, it seems to primarily be stories from "The Top," but I don't think that's all it is. There are examples of incredibly popular stories that aren't necessarily amazing. And I don't even need to mention any names before we all can think of one example.
3469323 Their popularity has nothing to do with it. The truth is, I can claim hipster on a few of them in that I liked them before they were really famous
if popularity was a force for it, believe me Past Sins would be on the list. And it isn't.
They have to be able to work for advancing the plot I have for TSC, which is not as obvious as people might think... I have ignored stories I really like because they wouldn't further the plot. On that point... I have to like them, because otherwise I won't want to write them. And finally, the authors must also want to let me do it... if they don't want in, the story doesn't happen.
3469567
hmm... Alright. Good to see that it's not just popularity. Means I have a chance, mwáhahaha!
And please don't take that as something serious <.<
But yeah. TSC is an interest story concept at the very least. Good luck with it
The Internet is too often like a zoo. The angry howler monkeys can be heard everywhere but the cute and content pandas rarely come out.
When loud, angry readers rant against an authors decision they forget that they are readers, not editors. Often they do still have that childhood mentality of "but that isn't what i want so I'll tantrum now" and those individuals; you can't treat them like adults. You can't give then the credit of being on an equal level with their opinions.
That isn't to say that disliking canonization of crossovers can't be a valid and reasonably discussed concern. Breaking to the flow and feel of a story, no matter how much it adds, has issues. If anyone has played DnD they know the danger of meta gaming to the flow and immersion of the story. Your characters don't need to follow logical paths, effects occur without justified causes, (you use the tardis to go back in time and see your pokemon damage the tardis so you go back in time and damage the tardis). These types of inconsistent logical cause and effects tend to break the suspension of disbelief and spontaneous characters from other dimentions most definitely require readers to pretend they knew it was a possibility all along. As such when TSC Sweetie arrives a great disturbance in the suspension of disbelief is felt by readers.
Personally I love how she can add to a world. The effort, love and dedication it takes for authors to collaborate in such detail is inspiring. Recreating the feel, both in setting, environment, character behaviors and flow of the original world is an enormously difficult task. Just look at any sequel tracked onto an originally stand alone movie. Most the time the contrivance required disrupts the viewer/reader as the new story doesn't fit perfectly. The skill to which TSC works nearly seemlessly into those world traveled to is a clear indication of the time and effort spent between Wanderer D and the author.
So to all those involved please know how much I love what you have done and it has brought at least this new reader to many stories I'd never have seen otherwise. May that help diffuse the dread due to those petulant enough to cry that they are taking their ball and going home.