Which story should I ask Karen Joy Fowler to read? · 4:23am Nov 15th, 2014
Thanks to you folks' contributions during the Clarion write-a-thon, I won a critique from a professional writer. My choices were Karen Joy Fowler and Delia Sherman, and I chose Karen. She has the opposite of Kurt Vonnegut syndrome: She continues to identify as a fantasy & science fiction author despite not writing much fantasy or science fiction. Also, she's a sweetie.
I think Karen's first famous story was "The Faithful Companion at Forty," in Asimov's in 1987, in which Tonto has a mid-life crisis about his role supporting the Lone Ranger. She followed this with a slew of best-selling novels (summarized by Wikipedia):
Sarah Canary (1991) - A mysterious nonsense-speaking woman in 1873 Pacific Northwest. It's kind of like a surreal remake of The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, with a silent main character whom other people think they understand.
The War of the Roses (1991) - This is a short story about a bitter divorce, published in book form, and my google-fu can't tell me anything more about it.
The Sweetheart Season (1996) - A novel about a female baseball team from 1947 Minnesota.
Sister Noon (2001) - 1890s San Francisco.
The Jane Austen Book Club (2004) - What it says on the cover, only different.
Wit's End (Putnam, 2008) - A young woman visits her godmother, one of America's most successful mystery writers.
We Are All Completely Beside Ourselves (2013) - I didn't know about this one until I wrote this blog; can't help you.
Earlier, I said,
If I win, I think I’ll make him or her read a pony story.
So... which story should I ask Karen to critique? It should:
- be one of my longer stories, 'cuz they're all really short
- be understandable by someone with no pone pone pone
- not be a simple comedy, because there's not much to say about those
- not be terrible
I'm thinking of:
The Magician and the Detective
Moments
Mortality Report
Moving On
Burning Man Brony
Twenty Minutes
Pony Play
The question I keep asking myself are:
- Should I give her one that I think has serious problems (the slipshod pacing of chapters 2 thru 5 of Moments, the boring chapters 2 & 3 of Moving On, the hammer-the-reader-over-the-head-with-lessons in the second half of Burning Man Brony, the flaky POV in Fluttershy's Night Out), to get her opinion on how to fix it?
- Should I give her one that I think has no serious problems, to maximize my chance of getting some extra-pony validation that I've written at least one thing that doesn't suck?
- Should I give her one that I think has some artsy writing, like Moments, Burning Man Brony, or Pony Play?
- Dare I give her Pony Play or Twenty Minutes?
What do you think?
>Should I give her one that I think has no serious problems
Do this. The worst problems are the ones you can't see. Give her the one you think is closest to perfect, and hopefully she'll be able to tear down your worldview a little bit.
I think to some extent it's question of where you think her skills lie and what you wish to get from it. I'd say if you give her something you know has issues, do it with the expectation that she may disagree with your assessment of the issues or the severity of them.
Though, if you give her something you feel is fairly solid, she might find issues you didn't spot.
I gotta admit, it'd be kinda hilarious to give her Pony Play, just to see if she figures you're trolling or not.
I confess, I'm not familiar with her work enough to feel confident in suggesting one fic over another.
I really want to tell you to give her "Pony Play", but upon consideration it's a pretty bad idea. It seems like that story's impact depends a lot on the reader -- not only because of the second-person perspective, although that brings it into sharper relief. Obviously she'll be able to give you good feedback even if the story doesn't "connect" for her. However, I doubt you care whether or not she personally finds ponies or BDSM effective themes for what "Pony Play" does, when you know some folks just do and some don't. I do agree with the idea that you should give her something you like enough that her criticism will probably be news to you.
2595715
This. I'm a big fan of "Moments" and "Moving On", but this is an opportunity for someone to potentially point out high-level problems you're missing and people in the fandom can't diagnose. If you've got an opportunity for someone to do that, I'd definitely say you should go that way.
I vote the magician and the detective or mortality report.
From the (admittedly limited) view of a reader and fan, I'd be a fool to recommend anything else over 'Moments'.
I'm sure there's some flaws in it that I just won't ever see from my pov, but I'm being sincere when I say Moments is an extremely powerful and emotional story, and I can only imagine the extra gleam that it could gain under a professional's eye.
I really have to put my two bits in for The Magician and the Detective. There's a lot of self-contained character in it that most normal stories tend to be somewhat weaker describing, and she is (most probably) not a pony fan to start with. A story that uses a main character *without* the descriptive lead-in (that most fans don't need) tends to baffle the inexperienced reader.
2595715
I'd have to agree with that. She'll likely find weaknesses that you didn't, and even point out strengths that you weren't aware of, both of which will strengthen you as a writer. If she spends her time catching stuff that you already knew about, she might miss something else more subtle.
The only choice is "Pony Play."
A man asks why; a god makes man ask why. Dare to be a god.
I think I'm leaning towards Twenty Minutes or Mortality Report, since I think they're two of your stronger works. Definitely do what 2595715 advises, because that's where you'll get the most bang for your buck in my opinion.
I'd say Pony Play or Twenty Minutes, specifically because they deal with somewhat uncomfortable subject matter; I'd like to see what a professional writer has to say about the combination of rather dark themes and cartoon horses, and the effect it has on the storytelling if any. Between those two Twenty Minutes is probably the safer bet, with Pony Play being a little more abstract, but whether that's a good or bad thing is up to you.
Don't give her a fic that you already know the weaknesses of.
I'd give her Twenty Minutes. I don't really have a reason beyond what has already been said; I just think it's your best work.
For the love of all that's good and holy please don't give her that story. Not Twenty Minutes. Horror aside, that is, technically, a recursive fanfic of two fandoms. If she never read FO:E (and she didn't) and hadn't played FO:NV (and she hadn't) the story will be much harder to understand.
2596154
I actually read it as a result of this post, in spite of having never read or played anything with "Fallout" in the title, and I didn't find it to be a problem. Sure it's many layers of fandom deep, but the basics of the setting -- racial tension, corrupt society not equipped to treat prisoners
humanelyequinely, endless war sapping the hope of the population -- are pretty straightforward and easy to glean from the story. It probably relies less on canon knowledge than a lot of Bad Horse's stuff; in fact, it's about as non-reliant on knowledge of canon as a fanfic of a fanfic of two unrelated continuities could possibly be.I'm a big fan of Magician and Detective. Also I failed to see Moving On in your list and was going to demand why because that one is the most awesome depressing thing I've read in a while. Then I noticed it was there after all. So yeah.
I wouldn't recommend Pony Play. I mean, it was good, but I think it depends at least a little on a knowledge of Fluttershy's character for its impact. And also on the knowledge of what kind of mature-rated stories you find around here, because otherwise the whole 'I'm having sex with a talking horse' thing comes way too far out of left field.
... And I've just realised I no longer consider stories about sex with talking horses to be out of left field. I don't want to live in my brain any more.
Yes. It's entirely possible that the biggest criticism will be "there are ponies in it", so you want to go with the thing where that will be the only "problem".
Entirely separate from that answer, I think you should go with The Magician and the Detective, and here's my reasoning:
-Sherlock Holmes is a classic, treasured character and will resound with an author. He's also someone people have written stories about after ACD's death.
-It's p. good.
-
I can't remember any of your other fics and keep getting you mixed up with Horse Voice-Mostly it all comes down to "Well you wrote fanfic about Tonto!"
-No but srsly, it's good.
Tough decision, but having read through the first half of The Magician and the Detective again last night, I'd say definitely go with that. Because:
1) It's an excellent, engaging story with (IMO) great characterization, and it has that great Bad Horse ending which fits you, the story, and Fetlock Holmes character so well.
2) It's your longest work. The writer is a successful novelist, and will likely see things over the longer story that might not be apparent from a much shorter one.
3) It's Pony just enough for that aspect to be intriguing to a non-fan (I think), but not so much to turn them off from a lack of background knowledge. FWIW, the story could also easily be translated into human-based fantasy, so you're giving the author a taste of the pony world without overwhelming her.
4) In addition to what she might think needs work, the author might have something to say about the positives of the story as well that you (perhaps) might not have seen. I'd personally rather have both kinds of critique on something long-form (that being my eventual goal) than short.
Also FWIW, whatever you choose, I would not give her Pony Play, as much as I like it and understand it.
I'm gonna suggest:
"Burning Man Brony" though I haven't read it in quite some time. Karen Joy Fowler actually won the Nebula Award for best science-fiction or fantasy short story in 2003 for "What I Didn't See," a story that is neither science-fiction nor fantasy as far as I've ever been able to tell. It is, however, pretty much a piece of James Tiptree Jr. fanfiction, so there is that...
Mike
"Burning Man Brony." That's not so much fanfic as you using pop-culture tropes to make emotional and social commentary. Which seems to be what Ms Fowler does.
*the catboi comes, clad in casual well-worn black. His scuffed-up leather shoes clomp with each step as he rounds the Bad Horse's flank to face him, sniffing in the horse's scent with rapid intakes of air. Satisfied, he smiles and tickles the horse's ear.*
Greetings, Bad Horse! This is quite the opportunity you have here, eh? A professional, someone outside the fandom, is going to be looking at a story of yours. But, what exactly do we want from that? What do you want from that? Perhaps to have her unrealistically join the herd? That's quite a feat, probably impossible. But, perhaps other than critiquing your fic, you can let her walk home with a bit of fascination for the fandom. In fact, with a few gentle nudges, I bet you can get her to read some of your other stories if she's impressed enough. Should be off the record, though.
Oh, and you're the ambassador to bronies as a whole, BH. Congrats! Now don't bugger up.
Please.
Now, how should you go about this? There are a few more options than you see, some good, and some kinda terrible. Just keep your hand— err, hoof open, but don't overextend.
Oh, and I should remind you that I did shove a lot of money into your
pants crotch. Totally not molestation. It's secreting money away. Like how drug dealers do it.Clarion fund raiser, prolly right behind what Ghost and Ed donated. Still, that is a good chunk of change. Not that it should effect your decision at all. Really. Look, all I got is advise, eh? Take it as you will.Now, what to let her read...
YOU SHOULD LET HER READ ALL THE PERFECT PONY PRINCESSES.
No, I'm fucking kidding. It is what I personally recommend as top pick fic, seeing as it is my favourite of all your stories. The gimmick is fancy, it has the tendency to lead those faint of heart to really, really dark places, it's prolly quite relatable to some people...
But no. It's a mixed bag. Some people don't get it, some people do, and we want a more controlled variable, if you're going with the goals I've suggested (and I know you've prolly considered them at some point). Plus, it's filled with flaws, if I recall you saying at some point. Hell, I bet it's one of those stories that you're under the impression is terrible.
To veer a bit, I have shown the story to people who don't normally follow you. Results have been ranging from thinking that you, BH, wanted them dead (hilarious, but being serious, I know it ain't true. The guy's kinda like Ghost, no offense), a cryptic ";_;", saying it wasn't anything too incredible, to thinking it was pretty keen.
Also, never told you before because I didn't want to make you feel too bad at the time, but All the Perfect Pony Princesses came out the day after me n my friends celebrated my birthday. That day ended with me well, feeling down, despite, or perhaps because of my friends' persuading me to go celebrate at a gentleman's club. That's a story for another day and another time... but yeah, I consider All the Perfect Pony Princesses to be an unintentional birthday present.
I know most people ain't into causing themselves mental anguish, and the story ain't too popular, but if you do show AtPPP to Karen, you might get an answer to how to fix it. Or maybe it's an answer from a different person and doing it now may waste your opportunity greatly. Yeah, pass on it. It's a story to get her to read off the record.
I can't really say anything about The Magician and the Detective. It's apparently the only fic of yours I haven't read. What can I say? Long-ish fics are a bit of a turn off. I like fanfic I can read lots of. Long fic status is relegated to novels like The Horus Heresy series for me. The Magician and the Detective must be a good story with few mistakes if you got interviewed for it. Its characters are self-contained. What 2595871 said. As much as I like guaranteed wins, it should be something a bit more abstract, something less... conformist.
Perhaps Pony Play?
*blushes*
There are aspects of it that I do find quite gratifying, but others I find to anger me greatly. But, my main detractor is the whole BDSM tickle play thing. You want to leave a good impression of the fandom on Karen, eh? I mean, do you want Karen to think we're all a bunch of over indulged neck beards or furries? Ok, yeah, we are a bunch of furries, most of whom are in denial. Look, the form I'm taking on right now should tell you how vehemently I believe that, but that's an argument for another time. Plus, what 2595753 said. Impact depends on the reader, much like AtPPP and a slew of others. Maybe if you dox her and find out if she's into any kinky stuff, then you should show her.
Or do it like 2595730 said and screw everything fruitful that could come from this because it would be hilarious to see her react to borderline smut.
Topics that are too edgy should probably be stayed away from. First impressions, eh? As much as it pains me... although, Pony Play is still one of my top choices if you can eke another review.
Comet Song Story— I mean Moments— is a very solid choice. Most people here seem to want that quite a bit. I dunno. I like it. Definitely show it if you find that Karen's a Dethklok fan? She'll immediately see the correlation if that's the case. I dunno. Not much to say about this one. Sure. It's good. Because a group of unicorns is called a blessing. That is essential shit every living being on this earth should know.
Gonna have to disagree with 2596154 . You don't have to know anything about Fo:E to get into 20 Minutes. I don't think you have to know much about pone, either. It's a very self contained as a story. Heck, make it not pony, add a new backstory for a war, and you got yourself a piece of original fiction. I'll agree with Ghost that it shouldn't be shown, but because of the horror. Normally, I'm up for this kind of crap, but again, the whole restraint and first impressions. Letting loose is for the second run, if that's somehow done. I dunno. Maybe if I wave more Canadian gay pride money at them. It's so many pretty colours. Don't do 20 Minutes or I'll give Ghost a Nerf battle axe to [url=iambrony.dget.cc/mlp/gif/66433__safe_princess-celestia_princess-luna_animated_molestia_artist-theparagon%20(1).gif]bludgeon the bad out of you with. Put it that way.
*shakes wallet*
Just a reminder, but pay no heed.
I know! How about Biblical Monsters? That's, like, borderline edgy with the whole conviction makes you dumb shit like make a murder-stab on Purple Panderer and it did good research on lighthouse places and stuff. Or how about Wild Fire? Damn, that must've been hard getting Sibsy's permission. Take out the cutie mark and it's original fiction. Oh... wait... wait... wait... my bad. Mistook you like 2596248 did. Simple mistake, really. So silly, though. How do you mistake evil genius horses for skeletal ones?
Actually, I mistake GaryOak with Bronystories a fuckton. They both have the alliteration levels over 9000, but Gary spams the horse puns more and has arguably more toned down... tastes. HEY PRESENTPERFECT REVIEW HIS SHIT. Especially the crap with Dr. Panacea because she slaughter an English with her cute voice melodies as she danube her plot. Doo eet :P because puns. Terrible, terrible puns.
2595836 , you should read some of Gary's stuff if you haven't already. He's totally up your alley :3
That leaves Moving On and Mortality Report. I think they're both good and have merits, too. They're somewhere at the top. But still, too conventional and conformist.
I think you should go with Burning Man Brony. It's abstract, has gimmicks (colour words so beginners don't get lost), and can actually be a good introduction of the Mane 6, once you get past the fact that the main character is an enormous raging cock with entitlement issues. It displays one reason why a grown man might watch the show (I've been thinking watching the show whenever one wants to An Herocide might actually be a reason some cling to this show and fandom). Hell, the friggin' line is spewed out so plainly that you think Dicking Dickerson is joking about killing himself. But on the other hand...
The story is very self contained with characterization, but at the same time is tied strongly to the characters of the show. It takes an interesting trip to Burning Man; most people prolly haven't and that's a hook. Voila. Perfect thing to show off. And it's a commentary on Bronies, while not being too too vulgar. It doesn't have any mistakes I can see, mainly because I've never read anything quite like it. Oh, and 'shrooms.
It's also unintentionally funny. The whole part where that one hippie guy goes and sits next to Dicking Dickerson and is all like, "Hey brah. How's you're burn goin', brah?" And Dicking ups and leaves all blank-staring and giving no fucks. That is a hilarious breech in etiquette... and actually seems kinda autistic. It's hilarious.
I should go back and actually comment on the story, eh? It shares a few themes and ideas with [url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World%27s_End_(film)]The World's End. Dark themes and dickory aside, I think Burning Man Brony is a decent introduction to the Brony fandom for an intelligent person. Plus, 2596672 and 2597233 recommend it. And Ed knows things.
So... I guess this makes Burning Man a Brony my absolute top pick and Moments my second to make pleasant (lol) Brony contact with Karen, while not crossing too much into very controversial and edgy themes.
Of course, another idea would be to finish that Granny Smith story you were working on and let Karen see that. It seemed good from the few spoilers you showed. It's a spicy gamble.
Or... you could just say, "fuck it", link her to this and watch as everyone involved with Clarion loses their shit and spazzes and seizures with uncontrollable abandon and unwanted glee at the travesty of you winning and how terrible the products of our fandom are (staring into her "muscular eyes" kek).
The ball is in your hoof, Bad Horse. Make your choice. If you go with the last one, though, tell me so I can bring some shot glasses for all the tears. They won't be Brony flavoured, but eyy, they're still good.
Eyy, you. Yeah. You. Guy who's reading this and not commenting. You should comment so you can sway Bad Horse's enormous head and crap. Make his day more stressful. Vote a fic for him to choose to give to the nice lady. Democracy and all that jazz. Do eet.
*jumps up on Bad Horse's back and puts on a black stetson. Tail twitches with barely contained excitement.*
I did donate a decent chunk of change, and unlike Ed and Ghost, I'm taking advantage of it. Bad Horse, we're going drag racing. Of course, you could turn into that daemonic Jaguar, but wouldn't be more fun to beat some asses as a horse? Hey, hey! Quit bucking! Don't make me break out the carrot-on-a-stick, dammit! You run, and I throw lightning and kill-spells, stuff blows up, we win a race, and we both make ten G apiece. Sound good? Yeah, it'll be funner than trying to find the centre if a salt lick cube. Don't mind the music; it puts me in the mood.
When we win, we'll get celebratory hookers and ice cream. My treat. Don't worry. I won't tell Ed a thing.
The Magician and the Detective for sure. :D
2597821
I reviewed one of his stories. It didn't go well. :V (I picked a bad one, even by his estimation.)
Well, what is your goal here? If you're trying to inflict pony stories on her, Twenty Minutes and Pony Play are both problematic in that they are probably amongst your least pony stories.
That being said, Twenty Minutes does stand on its own four hooves pretty well, which may be a consideration to keep in mind; it is a very good story, and may be one of the easiest for her to understand.
I haven't read two of the stories suggested, which means I really am remiss and probably can't give the best of advice here, though.
What is the goal here? Just to get public opinion? I'm doubting it's that simple, and I think that it might've narrowed the vote a bit instead of it being so spread amongst your fic choices. Like, instead of terrible ideas that try to accommodate all the possible goals that I could think of, I could give more terrible ideas that pertain more to your goal(s). They'd still be quite bad and horrendously flawed, but hey, options. Options are cool.
2595971 This has become one of my favorite quotes.