Very Bestest Friends With Super-Best Benefits · 7:23pm Oct 6th, 2014
Inspired by this discussion.
SCENE: A road leading out of Ponyville; CHEESE SANDWICH and PINKIE PIE sit on the shoulder, leaning against one another in what is at least a very-friendly fashion.
CHEESE SANDWICH: Pinkie, I love you. Will you be my special somepony?
PINKIE PIE: Naah! We're too much alike!
CHESE SANDWICH (confused): Uh, that's part of why I love you -- we're kindred spirits and ...
PINKIE PIE: Yeah, that's the problem! We wouldn't fight enough. Just hug and kiss and cuddle and throw lots of super duper fun parties!
CHEESE SANDWICH: I see absolutely no problem with that ...
PINKIE PIE: Not for us, silly. For the Shadows Who Watch! (points at the reader)
CHEESE SANDWICH: Eh? Oh! They want us to fight with each other?
PINKIE PIE (mock-happy, there's some bitterness showing underneath): Yeppers! Because it makes a better story.
CHEESE SANDWICH (frowning): Oh. I see. I'm sorry Pinkie -- I think we would have been really happy together.
PINKIE PIE (now obviously sad, mane hanging straight): Yeah. Me too. Instead they'll prolly write me into a clopfic with somepony I don't even love and I'll have to pretend to like it because, upvotes.
CHEESE SANDWICH: That really sucks, Pinkie. You're ... you're wonderful. My muse. My inspiration. You shouldn't have to do that.
PINKIE PIE (lightbulb appearing behind her head, mane fluffing back out): We can still be friends!
CHEESE SANDWICH (still unhappy): Well, yeah -- it wasn't like I was going to stop knowing you, even if I can't ...
PINKIE PIE: With benefits!
CHEESE SANDWICH: Eh? Ohhh. He gets it.
PINKIE PIE: Yeah, we can hug and kiss and cuddle and throw really great parties only we'll say we aren't very special someponies.
CHEESE SANDWICH (confused): Wait, won't we still be happy?
PINKIE PIE: Well, mostly. See, because we aren't very special someponies, we can see other Ponies!
CHEESE SANDWICH: But I don't really want to ...
PINKIE PIE (looks at the audience, then at CHEESE): Ssshhh!!! You're always on the road, going from town to town, meeting all these floozies and I'm just dying on the inside with jealousy knowing that you're sleeping with somepony else and -- angst, reader interest!
CHEESE SANDWICH: Oh, yeah. And you're friends with everypony in Ponyville and they probably all really want you and I know you can't contain yourself on those long winter nights ... Grrr! I'm so enraged! (snarls and snorts very unconvincingly)
PINKIE PIE: Yep! So we're like loving each other and hating each other and there's lots and lots of room for conflict to keep things interesting!
CHEESE SANDWICH: Hmm. But wouldn't it be interesting if we just faced the problems of life together, as a couple?
PINKIE PIE: I wish. But most of our target audience live really soft lives with lots and lots of bits handed them by their mommies and never have to work hard to bake or plan parties ...
CHEESE SANDWICH: ... or go from town to town sometimes in country with storms and bandits or monsters ...
PINKIE PIE: ... so they figure that if we aren't fighting each other our lives would just be super duper easy.
(They tenderly KISS)
CHEESE SANDWICH: Best friends with benefits, then?
PINKIE PIE (with total bedroom eyes): Absolute bestest best friends with super best benefits, okey-dokey-lokey!
(We draw a curtain over the rest of the scene. Even party ponies need their privacy at times)
===
Seriously, people mostly fall in love with one another because they admire each other and think that they will be happier with each other than they will be alone, not (if they be sane) because they think that "interesting" things (in the form of mutual conflict) will occur. People mostly avoid having love affairs with people with whom they think they will fight.
This is about the difference between out-of-universe motivation for an event ("Pinkie Pie and Gilda the Griffon should become lovers because it's so hot and they will fight a lot") and in-universe motivation for an event ("Pinkie Pie and Gilda the Griffon become lovers because Pinkie thinks ___?___ and Gilda thinks ___?___"). The writer has something happen because he thinks it will be fun to read about (which is why there are few stories about Pinkie trimming her hooves); the characters do things because they are internally-motivated to do them (Pinkie trims her hooves because they are getting uncomfortably long).
The point is that in a good story both motivations match up. Someone writes a story about Gilda fighting off a horde of zombies to save Griffon hatchlings because it's a cool image. Gilda fights off the horde of zombies to save the hatchlings because she sees herself as cool and heroic and anyway she's too decent to let zombies devour hatchlings. This works better than Gilda falling in love with Pinkie because Gilda has absolutely no motivation to fall in love with Pinkie. (In fact, she canonically hates Pinkie).
Characters should not be restrained from doing what is in their nature, nor forced to do what is not in their nature, simply to serve the purposes of the plot. When the writers does this, the plot becomes implausible.
Have several Internets, dear Sir. On my way to class, so more later.
"The Shadows Who Watch." I like that. I always wanted to be an eldritch abomination.
In any case, yeah, characters should not be used as puppets for the author's amusement. If they are only following the needs of the story, it should be to exploit narrative causality, or because they're so naive that they think that's how the world actually works. A story needs Watsonian justification, not just Doylist.
Also, I believe that there's a fundamental error in thinking that there couldn't or wouldn't be any conflict in a CheesePie relationship.
One option is, when looking at two ponies who are 90% alike, to focus on that niggling 10% left: Pinkie Pie is a sedentary mare. She quite clearly considers Ponyville her home, and has made a concerted effort to mold it and herself in a comfortable way.
Everyone in Ponyville knows about Pinkie promises and the Pinkie sense. They treat her as someone who's a (relatively) known and usual face. And Pinkie repays this! She knows and is friends with all of the ponies in Ponyville, and gives all of them customized birthdays and parties.
On the other hand, Cheese Sandwich is a lone wanderer. He goes where the Sense takes him, (presumably) never staying in a single town for more than a week. Wherever he goes, he's the unusual. He brings great joy, but doesn't stop and see how that joy develops over time.
An argument between the two could go as such:
-But, Cheesy, my dairy treat, I don't care if the sense is telling you to go to Manehatten! It can wait another day, and we'll be able to go to Scootaloo's cuteceaneara together!-
-Pinkie, my numerological pastry, if I don't, how can I call myself a party pony? For that matter, how can you still call yourself that, too? Scootaloo won't care about you missing one party with her, and whatever's happening in Manehattan, needs a party ten times bigger than a cuteceaneara!-
*sobbing* -F-fine then! Go to Manehatten! Just remember that when you come back, the party here will have already finished-
*gummy looks on in dismay. Boneless #2 sadly nods*
The second option is to focus on how similar they are. That is, they are too similar, and thus, can see all of their own worst traits reflected in each other (this is done to a great degree in the story "I forgot I was there"; in it, Twilight clones herself, but the concept is the same).
Could Pinkie Pie face the fact that sometimes, she's really, really annoying? Can Cheese Sandwich face the fact being always "on" is a disguise others can see through?
I don't actually know how such an argument would go, but the point still stands.
Also, thinking a relationship couldn't possibly have any conflict is denotes a lack of...lateral thinking and originality. Even if Cheese and Pie were so utterly in sync, what about jealousy when a new, extremely charming pony comes into town*? What about work-related issues that start to bleed into the relationship? What if Cheese starts to get fearful for Pinkie's life (considering she's basically Equestrian Special Ops) and tries to hide it, badly, making Pinkie think there's something else going on?
Those are all sources of conflict that come from outside of the relationship, but that would still affect it.
*Blueblood, because it would be hilarious. Also, he'd be a perfect straight man.
2511791
Yes, I think they could, rather than give up on one another. That's how love works. One puts up with inconvenient experiences and realizations for love of the beloved. And some lessons are worth a little emotional discomfort to learn.
Pinkie and Cheese are still young -- they both still have some emotional immaturity and some growing up to do (and I mean for real, not merely the parts of their characters which are likely to remain childlike into old age). It would be extremely stupid for them to avoid loving one another to avoid seeing these things about themselves. And they're silly, not stupid.
Oh, of course. Cheese and Pinkie are similar, not identical. And they are still two separate individuals.
I see plenty of possibilities for jealousy (I used them for comedy in my example, but in fact Cheese is on the road a lot with plenty of opportunities to be seduced by random mares, and Pinkie is really popular in her home town and could find somepony with which to cheat on Cheese. I don't think they'd do these things, but the seeds of jealousy could be sown either accidentally, or on purpose by an enemy (and Pinkie in particular has enemies).
Cheese's mission takes him all over Equestria. Does Pinkie get lonely when he's been gone a long time? Afraid that something may have happened to him? What if he has a brush with death and Pinkie winds up really fearing for him? Pinkie is precognitive in canon, but if this only lets her see likely futures, she may be well aware that something threatens him and might harm him. What if she goes overboard trying to protect him?
Pinkie does risk her own life on a semi-regular basis fighting horrendously powerful foes. This would have to bother Cheese when he realizes this. What if he becomes overprotective? What if he tries to always be around her, impairing his own mission? What if he follows her into danger and needs rescuing himself?
And yes, even in the most mundane sense, there is a conflict in their lives between her need to spend most of her time in Ponyville and his need to travel all over Equestria. There will be times when it will be difficult or impossible to mesh their schedules. So there's a constant minor source of conflict right there.
2511886
I explained myself badly; what I wanted to show was that there could be conflict between, not that their relationship is doomed to failure.
Also I think that for some reason you didn't see my other comment?
In any case I'd say we've covered the great majority of all possible conflict causes in a romance between Cheese and Pie. Now I want to write an actual story with these two, parodying whirlwind romances while actually being one
Also also everything you wrote is right, as far as I know.
Sigh. Yeah. I went and read the other blog post, and of course de gustibus and all that, but one thing that popped into my head was: you know the saying "there are no small parts, only small actors?" Well, there are no boring ships, only boring authors.
Seriously, if you have to jazz things up with basic incompatibility, you're not thinking about the characters deeply enough or taking them seriously enough. And even funny characters have to be taken seriously when you write them. Once in a while, Pinkie Pie cracks herself up, but a lot of the time, she's completely serious about fun. She isn't thinking, "gosh, wouldn't it be hilarious if I take along a can of red paint to mark our progress a la Indiana Jones?" She just does it. One tiny thing I very much enjoyed in Rainbow Rocks was her response to Trixie's smoke bombs: "GASSP! She's GONE! Oh, no, there she is." She's like a kid that way.
2511770 Not to toot my own horn or anything, but that's a major part of my CheesePie fics. That, and the fact that he IS a party pony because she made him so. He wanders Equestria sharing the gift of laughter she gave him, and for him to stay in Ponyville all the time is a form of disrespect to that gift. That, and he's in love with his own Muse, which is a difficult thing to negotiate. In fact, I've cranked up the stakes, so that he sees her as the Living Spirit of Laughter--a sort of demi-goddess. And of course, as you noticed, the multiple masks on Cheese rarely slip: you're either getting "I'm a wanderin' dude" or "WHEE, LOOK AT HOW SUPER DUPER I AM!" You only get short glimpses of the guy who really seems to enjoy being alone.
So when you take Cheesy Sense and Pinkie Sense and their callings quite seriously, what you get are two compatible characters with some distinct differences, who MUST negotiate the territory between his compulsion to throw parties wherever he's called and her duty to serve as the basic heart of happiness in Ponyville. And who know what happens now that she's the Laughter member of some kind of Harmonic Round Table? Yeah, I think there's plenty to do there.
2511706
everybody wants to be an eldritch abomination
Yes, someone finally understand. Not always similar character personalities need to be boring or bland, also not always opposite personalities would work romantically.
For example i could see ships like Fluttercord, DiscoLight or Darizotl working since there are a lots of things that connect them (Discord in newest comic being Einstein like genius similar to Twilight, both Ahuizodl and Daring being clever adventurers) even though they have clearly different personalities. However i have a problem with Dislestia. Other than being totally different personalities that would as cling to eachother as two + poles in magnets i cant really think of any subject that would even make them friends and not to mention lovers. Even most die hard dislestia shipper use only 2 arguments. One is that they "may" be in similar age. Other is that they "may" have shared past together (which im pretty sure will be debunked in S5)
Same with similar personalities. While Cheese Sandwich would fit Pinkie Pies personality it doesnt make it boring. Basically adding one dynamite to second dynamite will only make explosion even more impressive. However on the other hand Fluttermac woudn't work. Giving more slipping pills to person who is half asleep already will not create any dynamic. 2 shy ponies (yes Applebloom called Big Mac "shy" in H&HD) could make a cute fan art, but romance on screen would be just terrible. I think Meghan seen that so Cheerilee talkative nature was a very good choice to Big Mac collected spirit.
What about the Cakes?
Gilda and Pinkie Pie fall in love because Gilda decides to hunt and kill her, but Pinkie's Pinkie Sense keeps her safe and she acts like it's a fun game because she doesn't really want to believe that griffons are murderous predators. Clearly Gilda must love her a lot!
Sure, she's screaming and ranting and clawing up trees in a rage, but that's just how griffons show that they're happy. I mean, they do it all the time, so it must be what makes them happy, right? So it's basically the same thing as a pony smiling.
Eventually, Gilda catches her, but actually isn't a murderous predator and doesn't actually kill her (even though that was her plan). Instead, she angsts about how she can't be a real griffon because she's spent too much time around ponies. And Pinkie Pie decides to cheer her up by insulting her until she's screaming and ranting and clawing up trees in a rage. But in the process she escapes, and Gilda has to chase her again.
And they live happily ever after.
2512562
That's actually a really funny concept!
2512101
What about the Cakes? They seem to share both interests (baking) and sense of life (incredibly romantic). I would imagine they grew up more or less together, probably started stepping out together in their teens, got married sometime in their twenties. They're still fairly young -- I wouldn't peg them as much past thirty, if that old. Cup Cake's chubby, but I'm guessing this is as much from sampling her own wares as it is from having delivered twins.
2513043
Meant they're married and interesting stories are told about them besides bickering.
2512047
My explanation is that Discord, in his youth as "Dissy," was extremely nice, and a heck of a lot of fun. Celestia has a very good sense of humor, and was probably even more fond of fun before she had to fight to unify a Realm and then rule it alone for a thousand years. At that time they actually had similar senses of life, and compatible moralities. Dissy was the best friend of both the Sisters, and in love with Celly.
When Dissy Awakened to become Discord, all that changed. He became a monster. He still wanted Celly (and now wanted Lulu too, because he was now far less inhibited), but neither Celestia nor Luna wanted to marry a monstrous tyrant. They wound up fighting and in the end deposing him.
Discord plainly likes Twilight Sparkle. She's smart enough that he can't easily manipulate her as he can most Ponies, and both powerful and clever enough that he can't easily overpower her -- unless he outright killed her (which he would probably never have done even when he was a tyrant, as she's just too much fun to play with), she might be able to use smarts or magical skill to figure a way out of whatever he did. And she's made it obvious that she cares about him, considers him to be her friend -- she demanded Tirek release him as part of the deal even though she was taking a risk by doing so.
As for Fluttershy, they have a very affectionate friendship. They may even be or be emotionally close to becoming lovers. When they share scenes in Season Four, they are usually making eye contact, smiling at each other, and sometimes caressing one another. She laughs at his jokes, and not fearfully, either. That can't be said of most Ponies.
I would have to see more scenes of Ahuizotl and Daring Do together to come to any judgement as to the extent of Foe Yay between them. We still don't know much about Daring's personality, beyond that she's both intellectual and highly-adventurous. And we know nothing at all of Ahuizotl, his origins or even his larger intentions. He's an enemy, but we don't have the background to tell where he lies on the scale between Anti-Villain and Complete Monster.
The canon Fluttershy might very well fall or have fallen for Big Mac. Just because they're both shy doesn't mean that they can't fall in love with each other -- it just means that they'd probably take a long time trusting each other enough to admit to it. Fluttershy can in canon be quite voluble with somepony she trusts -- she is with Rainbow Dash, Rarity, Bulk Biceps and Discord in particular. And Big Mac has no problem talking to family; and in "Pinkie Apple Pie" apparently has a long conversation (off camera) with Pinkie once he learns she's kin.
I don't think the show's going that way, though -- they seem to be shipping her with either Bulk Biceps or Discord.
Big Mac works very well with Cherilee -- and in canon not only does she seem to really like him (she's flirting with him in "Filli Vanilli" and "Zen and the Art of Gazebo Repair") but he seems happy to accept her attentions. Interestingly, their Humanoid counterparts also seem to be at least very friendly with one another.
2511949
(*nods*) Assuming that the characters are interesting by themselves, why are they now boring when put together?
Yes. If the characters are not acting as if they are real to themselves, then how can the author communicate their reality to her audience? As an author one is trying to create an illusion of sapience -- that the characters are real and distinct from one's own mind, that they are intelligent beings aware of their own actions.
The best way to do this is to create a mental model of that character's goals and personality in one's own mind -- a "sub-personality" if you will, rather like what one does to create a character in a tabletop role-playing game. Then one lets that character react to the events of the story and the actions of the other characters in a realistic fashion.
If one does this, the whole issue of the character falling in love (or hatred, or anything) with another character to "make an interesting story" never comes up, because the character's emotions toward other characters will be dictated by his or her perceptions, thoughts, and feelings. This results in naturalistic dialogue and actions.
The trick is to make this support the story going where one wants it to go. And -- if the characters resist this too much -- maybe the author should reconsider the direction of the tale. Many illogical plots can be exposed in such a fashion.
If one really wants the plot to go a certain way, then one can "force the plot." For instance, if your original plot was to have the ingenue heroine flee shrieking from the vague ghostly apparition into the forest where she gets lost and meets the dashing hero, if you've established your heroine as being the equivalent of Daria Morgendorffer, this is unlikely to happen, because Daria is brave and intelligent and wouldn't do anything this dumb. So you need to give Daria a reason to go into the woods and get lost -- maybe Quinn was with her, did freak out and ran into the woods, and Daria chased after her to keep her from harm, because she actually loves her little sister (don't tell anyone!).
But this can go too far, and usually having a character fall in love with someone just because "the plot says so" is usually going too far (in many meanings of the phrase). Falling in love is one of the most personal things anyone can do, and if you try to force the plot here it can come off as contrived, and contrived in a way that makes the reader lose his willing suspension of disbelief in the reality of that character.
Daria isn't going to fall in love with Kevin the Q.B, even if he's the dashing hero who rescued her in the woods. He's simply not the kind of man she'd respect, and if the author forces the love, the reader may stop respecting Daria.
(My old Daria fandom is showing)
2513119
Oh yes, very good point!
As a matter of fact, the standard domestic situation comedy (Dom Com) is about a married couple (with or without children) and the (hopefully) hilarious interactions of their personalities and (hopefully) wacky consequences. The format goes all the way back to radio in the 1920's, and probably descends from older stage models. The degree of similarity between the members of the couple may vary (note that Ralph and Alice Kramden and Ricky and Lucy Ricardo are two couples with fairly similar senses of life, who wind up butting heads over their points of disagreement -- Ralph hopes to achieve dramatic success by trying low-probability get-rich schemes while Alice wishes he'd just work steadily and save, but they agree that wealth is a goal worth seeking; Ricky is straight man to Lucy's funny girl but both value success in showbusiness, they just differ over whether Lucy should go on stage).
Cheese and Pinkie both agree that spreading joy through laughter and good cheer is the highest purpose in life. They have fairly similar concepts of good and evil, ethics and morality, and so forth. But they have different strategies and styles, and there are all sorts of story possibilities inherent in these diferences. They are funny bouncing off one another, and when playing against straight ponies. And there are all sorts of serious problems that they might face, alone or together.
2512047
Well, you're overlooking something blatantly obvious.
When Celestia first talks to the girls about Discord, she is so angry, afraid and shaken that she actually shows them how very upset she is. It takes a lot to make Celestia blow her cool in front of her little ponies, which is why fans assumed that Discord must have been some kind of quasi-Satanic figure of pure evilness... which wasn't even borne out by Return of Harmony, let alone any other appearance the character has been in. Celestia is calmer and more in control when she tells Twilight about Tirek, who's obviously worse than Discord.
Yet, even though Celestia is so freaked out by Discord's escape that she actually lets Twilight and the gang see her being upset, two years later she has him released to be reformed by Fluttershy. If he's really so evil and horrible as to justify how upset she was in RoH, why would she ever voluntarily release him? But if he's not, why did the thought of his escape upset her so much?
Then his plunder vines that he conveniently forgot about kidnap and drain her and Luna and nearly kill the Tree of Harmony, and all Discord does about it is to taunt Twilight into going back to the Tree to solve the problem (meaning that, like Celestia herself, he throws Twilight at the problem... but it's a problem he caused, and he's powerful enough he could have probably done a lot to resolve it on his own.) Does Celestia punish Discord for this? A few months later he's gleefully pretending to be sick and revealing that he and Fluttershy are pen pals, so signs suggest "no". Then he directly betrays her, teams up with the villain she sent him to catch, does nothing when she's sent to Tartarus with her sister and niece, and doesn't switch sides until he himself is betrayed. He apologizes with flowers for this horrific betrayal, and she smiles and accepts them. And spoilers suggest he's going to be around next season and have suffered no significant retribution for what he did.
So what kind of person would a woman be furious and upset with so much that she loses her cool, when she almost never does, and yet she releases him from prison and forgives him for some pretty horrible crimes? Discord has to have been at least a very close friend of Celestia's, if not her lover, because otherwise their relationship makes no sense. Because if Discord is not in fact total evil incarnate, and Celestia knows this (because if she didn't know it she wouldn't have released him), then the only reason she was so upset at his escape suggests that she feels personally betrayed by him. That mixture of "oh god I hate you so much" and forgiveness and "I want you to be happy and have friends... far away from me" is totally a reaction to an ex or a former very close friend.
As for what they might have in common... Celestia's beloved pet plays practical jokes like pretending to be dying, soliciting treatment from a hapless tenderhearted pegasus, and then pretending to die, and Celestia thinks it's funny. Celestia's warm-hearted but kind of a troll; if she thought Philomena's prank on Fluttershy was funny (and note, it's basically very much the same thing that Discord pulled on Twilight and Cadance), it's easy to imagine that a younger, less responsible Celestia might have found the pranks of a younger, less malevolent Discord to be amusing. Discord, meanwhile, is a character archetype that's usually shown as drawn to his opposite. (Q is fascinated by Jean-Luc Picard... who is basically a male human Celestia... and Discord is obviously fascinated by and wants attention from Twilight, who is much more obsessed with order and control than Celestia is.)
So personally, I have a hard time making any sense of Celestia's behavior unless she did once love Discord, either as a lover or as a friend... and "as a lover" is more compatible with "I never really had a friend before", as many people perceive lovers and friends to be entirely separate things. I can't actually see them getting together now, because in real life, if your ex has hurt you that badly you're going to be doing well to behave civilly to him/her in public, but Celestia's behavior toward Discord makes no sense if he was a stranger who came out of nowhere and usurped her throne. She cuts him slack that she won't cut anyone else but Luna. Doesn't mean he loves her now -- he's much more interested in either Fluttershy or Twilight or both -- and she certainly doesn't love him right now, but her behavior toward him strongly suggests he is family, an ex-friend, or an ex-lover.
2513287 The nice thing about being an agnostic on Discord ships is that I'm wide open to considering multiple points of view on them. And unlike many other ships, which are strictly personal in nature, the major Discord ships both have some sort of bearing on Equestria's past, present, and future.
Actually, I quite like Celestia/ AU Sombra--it's one of the few ships I like-- but I think it can more or less be finagled by considering Discord as Celly's first love and Good King Sombra her second. Poor Celestia. She just can't catch a break.
2513287
And the stained-glass window doesn't count. Celestia was presumably the one who commissioned it.
Though I do see Discord as nastier than you do, canon makes it plain that he can't possibly have been as bad as Celestia made him out to be. Nor, as you point out, if he was that evil, would Celestia's subsequent release of him have made any sense.
That's a very good point. Celestia takes Sombra a bit more personally than she does Tirek, which is why I think he's the one who began to corrupt Luna. Note that Luna is extremely worked up about Sombra -- and seems to resent Twilight for being the one sent to deal with him, which about the only time in canon that Luna isn't friendly to Twilight. Celestia also seems to have no problem with Twilight killing Sombra, which is also interesting.
Celestia even goes so far as to set him up with somepony whom she must have known was in many ways similar to her own younger self -- and, specifically, perhaps in the ways Discord found attractive both as a friend and otherwise. Fluttershy. And the writers bring up this similarity elsewhere -- note who plays Celestia in the little learning exercise they staged for Rainbow Dash?
(Hmm, how would Discord react to Fluttershy playing Celestia?)
It's always a good sign for a guy when he can make the girl he's interested in laugh.
(*nods*) Or a combination of two or all of those.
2513333
Absolutely -- there were more than a thousand years that Discord was in stone, let alone all the time that he was a bad guy, so the notion that Celestia couldn't have been with both Discord and Good Sombra strikes me as misogynistic -- the notion that a woman is rendered impure by having two lovers even if one of them went insane and conquered her nation and she had to turn him into a statue, and even if the timespan involved is thousands of years!
I'm pretty agnostic myself -- I actively ship Dislestia, Fluttercord and Discolight (though 99% of all Discolight stories are massively out of character, and I haven't figured out how to make them have a mutual relationship aside from plot tricks like 'kidnapped by aliens'), I can easily see Dispie, and while I don't really see Discord with the other three of the Mane 6 I have no problem reading a well-written story with them. We haven't seen enough interaction between Discord and Luna for me to get behind Lunacord but if it's well written I'll buy it. I don't comprehend ship wars, really; none of these ships will ever be canon, so why not just enjoy them as fanfic?
2513333
I had the same thought myself -- when I finished the Reflections arc, I was thinking "Gee, Celestia. Everyone you love winds up turning into an evil megalomaniac."
2513357
(*nods*) Yeah, I think under most moral codes that would be considered good enough grounds for a breakup ...
This is true even in my verse (derived from Alex Warlorn's) where Celestia and Luna weren't originally so much royalty as they were divine Avatars being raised in the Hidden Mystic Pony Village of Paradise Estate. The long-term goal of the Ponies of Paradise Estate was to restore Pony Civilization; Discord not only physically-destroyed their home, killed some of them, and forced the others to flee, he also set back their plans by at least a thousand years.
The reason my Celestia made her sister and herself the rulers of Equestria after defeating Discord was that she decided that the Ponies of Paradise Estate had been taking too indirect and slow means to the end. The Realm of Equestria is the realization of the dreams of the Ponies of Paradise Estate -- Celestia stayed true to the ideals of her youth.
Also, friendshipping any of those pairs produces hilarious and often touching results when done well, as you do in "An Idea So Crazy It Might Work."
2513287
Its simple. Discord DID enslaved her and her people. He made them suffer. Maybe he even hurt Luna or Starswirl. After she stoned him the only memories what remained about him were the bad memories. Tirek wasn't worth the anger because he DIDNT DO NOTHING, Scorpan helped Celestia so for her it was probably a good memory since she earned a new friend (and them having a romantic past together actually make sense since he wasn't an enemy). So why didnt she released him earlier? Same deal with Luna. Mane 6 had to battle them for the sake of adventure. Celestia is really portrayed as forgiving and kind. There wasn't any need for them to be in relationship in the past for her to try give him a chance (especially since she basically wanted to use him as a weapon to defend Equestria so its also her profit). Im sure if Tirek, Chrysalis or Sombra(especially Sombra) was stoned in her garden, she would tell Fluttershy to reform them too.
2511886
Yeah i don't really seen anything toward BulkShy and i doubt he will appear as something more than BG character but i guess you're one of the few people who did. I personally would see him paired with Derpy
2513832
I dunno. Not only did he get more than one mildly romantic and a suggestive scene with Fluttershy (who is not exactly outgoing), but he's also been hinted to be connected in some way to Scootaloo. Oh, and he's a Wonderbolt, one of the ones who got to directly fight Tirek and Discord. Looks to me as if he's being built up to be more important in the series.
2511706
Alex Warlorn's term for the audience. And from the POV of the characters in the show, we are.
2513864
He was placed in places where he could appear in cameo. He will always be shown with pegasi. Derpy also was shown fighting against Tirek and Discord. It doesnt mean she will play a big role. They had entire episode to build up Bulk character and they did less than with Flash. And i didnt see any siggestive scene. The way Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy treated him remind me of people who treat mentally challenged kids. This was also behavior he was giving to us. Throwing a tantrum when Fluttershy bump him with too much force. Enjoying girly outfits. Being gullible enough to trying to solve Dash problems by offering her a muffin. Thats not very shippy if you see Fluttershy as a care assistant and thats why there is so little fan arts or fanfics. There was also nothing shippy with Iron Will in Putting your hoof down or nothing about AppleSpike in Spike At Your Service yet people still ship them. There is still no reason not to ship them but to really think it will become a thing in the future is also very naive. I guess im very sceptic toward ships that COULD or WOUDNT happen. I base my ships on more significant evidence in the show and not on personal preferences. I think that for now Cheerimac, FlashLight and Sparity are the only most hinted relationships. Then on the second level of probability thats wasnt yet openly hinted is Fluttercord, CheesePie and possibly SoariDash for their friendship status. To be honest Bulk was also shipped with Cloud Chaser in Wonderbolt Academy and with Pinkie Pie in Rainbow Falls so that one Equestria Games arc cant be counted as anything significant if not explored further. And Bulk is still considered as BG pony by DHX staff so i woudnt hold my breath for anything more than "lifting and muscle jokes" or "yeaaaah" memes in the background
2511791
She's annoying in your opinion. How does one fake being weird? Cheese was shy but then he was inspired so I guess you could fake being zany.
2514255
I agree with Devas that Pinkie can be annoying and that Cheese tends to be in public persona more than we see Pinkie being. It seems quite likely that each of these will create some conflict or strain in any love between Cheese and Pinkie. OTOH, neither seems on a scale likely to end such a love, or prevent it from beginning.
These character differences spring directly and logically from the differences in their strategies. Pinkie Pie is sedentary and thus lives among ponies who know her well; she can't keep as much distance between public and private personalities because Ponyville sees her just doing normal things (by her standards) every day of the week.
Cheese is nomadic, so he only gets to know most Ponies very superficially, so he can adopt not only one but two public personas (the Party Pony and the Wanderer) and get away with it. (The second public persona is the one that keeps him alive when he has to travel through dangerous country). He rarely gets to be himself save in his inmost thoughts.
This doesn't keep them from being very much kindred spirits.
2513903
He didn't just cameo in "Rainbow Falls". He spoke repeatedly and performed numerous actions which were the center of his scenes. He also got important actions in "Equestria Games."
"Equestria Games," with Fluttershy perched on his barbells. Note her posture. Note his reaction. Yes, Fluttershy's kind of naive, but she's not that naive.
An extrapolation from which led me to write this scene between Twilight and Rainbow:
I based this on "Rainbow Falls," "Equestria Games," and some eps in which he cameoed.
You're not taking Fluttershy's canon personality into account, and I think you're also misunderstanding Bulk.
Fluttershy is a major weirdo who values different things than most other Ponies. She doesn't easily herd; she often avoids other Ponies and spends most of her time with semi-sapient animals, She's an introvert, and doesn't trust most other Ponies.
When we first meet her she has only two Pony friends, Rainbow Dash and Rarity. Each of them in her own way tries to encourage Fluttershy to be more outgoing. In the fourth season, it finally works: we see Fluttershy doing all sorts of things which would have previously terrified her.
Bulk Biceps isn't mentally retarded, though he's not all that bright. His real problem is that he's not very good at communicating with other Ponies. He's figured out that given his size and strength he can pretend to be normal and be accepted to some extent by other Ponies by enthusiastic agreement Thus his frequent "YEAH!"
In other words, he mimics healthy male aggression the way that Fluttershy mimcs female coyness. It's an act where both of them are concerned -- Bulk usually just doesn't know what to say, and Fluttershy actually isn't coy at all with those she trusts. The act is for the same reason -- crippling shyness.
The significance of Bulk's crying and running away when he thought that Fluttershy intentionally hurt him is that he broke his cover, and Fluttershy realized that he wasn't aggressive and scary -- quite the contrary, he was socially timid. At that moment, she saw that she could deal with him the way she deals with her seemingly aggressive and scary animal friends (like the bear) -- through kindness.
Bulk actually had a really good time that episode. By the end he had been notably accepted not merely by Fluttershy, but also by Applejack and Pinkie Pie.
As for violating Pony expectations of masculinity, what makes you think that Fluttershy gives a damn about such things anyway? She finds most stallions utterly terrifying in the social sense, even more than she does most mares. Bulk wasn't scaring her, which is an important first step to her heart.
As for muffins, I can see from whom Bulk might have gotten the idea that muffins solved all problems. Someone who is also notably kind and a bit childlike in her behavior. Oh, and she was on their team, as a backup flier. Remember?
As for Fluttershy being a "care assistant," there's nothing in canon to suggest that he's so incompetent that he needs one.
His displayed interactions with Cloud Chaser and Pinkie Pie seemed much less significant than what we've seen of him with Fluttershy, and he only got one episode in which he interacted with them in this manner.
2514326
"His displayed interactions with Cloud Chaser and Pinkie Pie seemed much less significant than what we've seen of him with Fluttershy, and he only got one episode in which he interacted with them in this manner."
Its basically Bulk Biceps overall, He doesnt speak in Equestria Games and serve there just for continuation, he is a one shot character.
""Equestria Games," with Fluttershy perched on his barbells. Note her posture. Note his reaction. Yes, Fluttershy's kind of naive, but she's not that naive."
She was amused by belly dance, a freak show. In a previous scene she was more amused with a butterfly, it doesnt mean she was attracted to a butterfly. There was nothing special in that episode. Corey Powell pretty much ruined most of the characters there. Pretty much entire 4chan count Derpy and Bulk as mentally challenged and Maud as autistic. While i agree that he is only depicted that way in Rainbow Falls and as more competent wonderbolt by Meghan i cant really see any attraction even if i repay the episode 999times. Its always Fluttershys caring for little kid/pet/brother. With Discord she actually express normal reactions(anger, sadness etc) and have a normal conversation. With Bulk it was like baby special care. Anyway i will use his mentally challenged status as a headcanon until tv series will show us that he is able to talk like a pony and not someone with tourrette syndrome
2514274
I see fair enough. So that further pushes the idea that Cheese is NOT a clone of Pinkie I am seriously tired of people thinking they are. You and Scoots2 hit it straight home you both have really cool headcanons here. Pinkie is afraid to show her other side. I mean we saw what happened in party of one, also how she pretends everything is "okay" when someone asks her if she is okay when she is trying hard to hide how upset she is. she has a difficult time balancing her emotions which can to some degree come off irritating she gets overwhelmed with excitement my friend was calling it "manic" not sure if that's the proper term for it. But the thing is because of that she is hard to understand nobody gets her from what I've seen in "pinkie pride" Cheese gets her.
2513832
Tirek didn't get sent to Tartarus for not doing anything. Celestia's as scared of Tirek as she is of Sombra, but just like with Sombra, she only shows it to Luna. Discord's the only one where she loses her crap in front of Twilight, but we know Discord wasn't as bad as Tirek because Tirek is willing to do things that might kill ponies, and Discord is not.
And the whole point I'm making is that he enslaved her people, she's horribly upset just thinking about him... yet she's willing to forgive him and have him reformed. She does not offer this option to Tirek, who had a brother who could presumably have helped reform him. She does not reach out to Chrysalis after Cadance and Shining Armor trash her and her Changelings. The only enemies she offers her forgiveness to are Nightmare Moon, who is her sister, and Discord. And she forgives Discord repeatedly for crap he really ought to have been punished for, and trusts him enough to send him out after Tirek even though he appears to have done nothing worthy of such trust.
I mean, at this point it's all down to character interpretation, but I just can't see Celestia as not having strong feelings for Discord of some kind more positive than mere enemies. They don't have to have been lovers -- they could have been friends, they could have been family -- but you wanted to know what Dislestia shippers had to draw on besides "maybe they are of similar age and maybe they grew up together?" The inconsistency between Celestia's emotional reaction to Discord getting free and her later willingness to forgive him is exactly the kind of thing Dislestia shippers are picking up on.
And I don't think they're ever going to tell us where Discord came from, because they just don't give us that much information. We still don't know anything about Fluttershy's family, and Starswirl has been presented as being different very inconsistent ages. So I suspect nothing will be done to contradict Dislestia any more than anything will be done to contradict Twilight's immortality -- the showrunners may have their own ideas, but they won't go into them in the show because there's no place for them in the show. Twilight won't ever be established as immortal or not because the show won't show us the Mane 6 as elderly mares, and Dislestia won't ever be contradicted because we'll never be shown enough details of Celestia's childhood or where Discord came from to rule it out.
I do, however, think that if the show is going to ship him with anyone now it will be Fluttershy.
In my backstory, all three -- they were raised in the same little steading as if they were cousins, Dissy's two best friends growing up were Celestia and Luna, and Dissy and Celestia fell in love. So they get to be family, friends, and lovers. (The same, save that her romantic love was unrequited, is true in my continuity for Luna with Dissy -- but he most definitely loved her back as a best friend).
Which is why Celestia can't just throw Discord away to some sort of eternal torment. Luna thinks she can -- but would regret it a moment later. Some bonds are too close to ever be wholly broken.
2516297
Oh, they are setting that up so much that if this were anime I would say almost certainly. Under the rules of American children's television, perhaps not -- but then, Friendship Is Magic has already shown things I didn't think they'd dare to show.
2516297
Ok i dont see anything wrong with Dislestia in the past although i need show evidence before i will take it for granted
2516345
Im pretty sure Fluttercord is turning slowly from shipping into canon along with that page, i think shippers may have to coniderate their headcanons in S5 when that rumores jelaousy episode will air
i60.tinypic.com/6f0f8p.jpg
2516800
Ooh, Baast recognizes Fluttershy as a rival ...
2517209
it also imply that canon Discord might be attracted to canon Fluttershy
Also Not sure if Baast represent Twilight or is just an OC.
For a moment i thought shes Celestia alteration but there was no Twilight cat. Baast is more purple and it was Twilight that beat NightmareMoon with power of friendship as (Sweetie Belle suggested) and not Celestia. And well DiscoLight also exist and is more visible in Threes a Crowd so maybe writers took ships from episodes and not the fandom because dislestia would be obvious choice .
2517278
Well, in Twilight's Kingdom, she is the one he most regrets betraying. Even though, note, it's Twilight who actually saves him from Tirek.
2517209 I know! I had my copy but I hadn't read it yet! I am stunned!
Incidentally, I also picked up the Daring Do collection and the Rainbow Rocks novelization. While the latter is sort of disappointing, the former is a heck of a lot of fun, AND in more than one spot, it shows more indications that they're trying to coordinate things more closely. It's not really a spoiler, but at one point, Daring uses some Goops for Stuff. I don't know if it's some kind of concerted effort, or if all of them are just working that way because it's fun, but it's obvious that the book authors are reading the comics. And that's pretty cool.
2520238
Just read # 24. That was hilarious and insane! But what would you expect from a comic with Discord, the Cutie Mark Crusaders and a time machine? Fluttershy got to be Straight Mare. And most definitely Discord's Love Interest.
2512562 I like you.
2517278
If Baast is the Twilight-analogue in that world, and she was in love with Discord, it could explain why Discord acts like he at least sort of likes Twilight Sparkle. In addition to the whole Q-and-Picard vibe there.
2525028
it would be cute to see Twilight getting jealous of Fluttershy in S5
But it was probably a very small nod to discolight shippers. I think Whitley doesn't look into fan art and fanfics so the only shipping he would see are the ones in the tv show. He probably took discolight from Threes a Crowd and Fluttercord over all from tv series, especially from Twilights Kingdom since it has the heaviest vibe. However it prove that casual viewer who isnt reading fanficition or view fanarts doesnt see anything significant between Discord and Celestia. Especially if he only read comics of his colleagues like Reflections arc
2525240
Twilight's not going to get jealous of Fluttershy. But possibly the other way around.
Fluttershy genuinely likes Discord. Maybe even loves him. Twilight... my guess is that Twilight is uneasily fascinated by him. Consciously, she believes she dislikes him, because he's perpetually disruptive and she hates that; but his vocabulary and level of sophistication for the avatar of a principle that is usually fairly unsophisticated suggests that he's very intelligent, and he certainly knows a lot of things Twilight doesn't, and she responds to that. He's interesting, and Twilight is drawn to what's interesting.
But he drives her insane. So if Twilight were to be made aware that Fluttershy and Discord were getting romantically involved, she would not be jealous of Fluttershy, because her fascination with Discord isn't romantic (it could become so, eventually, but right now it's barely even friendship). She might be worried for Fluttershy, but she has so little consciousness of Discord as a potentially sexual being that she wouldn't perceive Fluttershy as a rival in any way. (Unlike Baast, who has obviously slept with Discord... but Baast is a cat, not a pony, and Baast is a rebel leader, not the pampered student of the ruler. Baast may be a Twilight analogue but she is in no way Twilight.) If Discord then completely ignored her in favor of Fluttershy, she might feel a slight twinge... but she'd be too busy telling herself how relieved she is to pay attention to it.
However, if Discord felt that his position with Fluttershy was secure enough that he was safe to do so, he might flirt with Twilight to make Fluttershy jealous, and it would work. Not that Fluttershy would ever be mean to Twilight as a result; her reaction would be more like Pinkie's very sad jealousy of Cheese when he first stole her spotlight. She would try to quietly bow out of the situation, while secretly fuming deep down inside. (Since Discord's goal would almost certainly be to get her to publicly fume because he craves the validation he'd get from her being openly jealous, this means he wouldn't get what he wanted from the stunt.)
2535716
Yeah, considering her taste in men in Equestria Girls i doubt Discord is even close to that. They do however have a lot in common. Discord can turn into a science dork and explain complicated physics or make calculations in just moments. Only Discord and Twilight seem to be on the same intelligence level in the show. Discord of course mostly use it for his mischievous plans. I can understand however that writers don't really like to match characters with similar traits (like two shy characters or two geek characters) but if Fluttershy relationship with Discord would ever be weakeaned in the show then i could imagine DiscoLight to grow instead (of course if EG romance subplot ever end)
2536311
Discord is superintelligent on the level of the other Alicorns (and btw I think that Cadance is smarter than she's often given credit for being, it's just that a lot of her intelligence is emotional-social -- and notice that she can keep up with Twilight as a friend). Intelligence would be a very important criterion for Twilight in love -- which is one of the problems I see with Flash/Twilight -- I don't think he's bright enough to even roughly match her. OTOH, Equestria Girls shows that he is fairly intelligent -- notice that he figured out rather quickly how Sunset Shimmer had framed Twilight. So I could be underestimating him.
2512101
The Cakes are obviously a couple who fell in love in part because of similar or complementary Talents and in part due to a deep emotional connection. They are both extreme romantic sentimentalists (as shown by their habit of constantly making up and using pet names for one another) who obviously like running Sugar Cube Corner. Their Talents make them excellent bakers, and they have partnered with one another and taken on another Talented baker (Pinkie Pie) enabling their business to grow.
Do their similarities make their lives "boring?" Perhaps, but it is the kind of "boring" that makes their lives enjoyable. They love each other, love their jobs, and are enjoying commercial, romantic and reproductive success. This is the kind of "boring" that people (and Ponies) dream of achieving!
2511949
Just so far in Season Five, with only 10 separate episodes (counting the 2-part opener as one) we've seen Pinkie play a key role in 2 important quests -- to Griffinstone and to Yakyakistan. The Tree of Harmony clearly has a high opinion of Pinkie's capabilities.