• Member Since 13th Oct, 2013
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Jordan179


I'm a long time science fiction and animation fan who stumbled into My Little Pony fandom and got caught -- I guess I'm a Brony Forever now.

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Aug
13th
2014

City Courtship · 7:36pm Aug 13th, 2014

(This is a companion piece to my earlier essay, "Country Courtship")

Introduction

When we enter the world of larger towns and cities, we enter a world of courtship more superficially familiar to most modern readers. One key difference between City and Country Courtship is the greater anonymity of the city. In the city, it is impossible for anypony to know everypony (Pinkie Pie, with the ability to create and maintain large eidetic databases in her memory, might be able to do it but would never have the time to meet everypony). This means that it is much more likely that ponies will be courting other ponies whom they have not had a long history of knowing before the courtship -- and that a failed courtship will lead to a more complete cutoff of social interaction between the members of the couple. This by itself seriously changes the dynamic driving the customs of courtship.

There is another difference, however, which is more alien to the modern West. That is a steeper hierarchy of class. In a small town like Ponyville, there are a few really prominent or wealthy families (such as the Apples, Riches and Silvers) and then there is everypony else, with "everypony else" being a fairly smooth continuum of wealth and status, and (aside from the real ne'er-do-wells) pretty much behaving according to a shared ethical code (in Ponyville, the real distinction is between the Old Families and the Newcomers, with the Newcomers mostly hailing from Canterlot and hence tending to have City values; less prominent small towns would have few Newcomers, compared to Ponyville).

Finally, a difference between city and country is that the larger society of the city is divided both by neighborhood (which is in part also a class distinction, though in a world without personal mechanized transport the different classes live more cheek-by-jowl than is the case in our automobile world -- the Ponies are destined for greater class separation after the Final Victory, when the immense production capacity created to supply the military during the Shadow Wars will turn toward civilian ends making personal road engines common) and by interests (though not to the extent that we see online). These groups are generally termed "sets," and a particular "set" will be oriented around particular forms of behavior, recreation or industry.

I. Stages of Courtship

A. Meeting and Introduction

This is more important in city than in country courtship because of the reduced likelihood that the members of the couple will already know one another. Upper-class introduction rituals can be extremely complex, including the rules for who is permitted to initiate the introduction (preferably a third party in most cases ("allow me to introduce my <social relationship term>"), though especially in public settings it is permissible to introduce oneself ("allow me to introduce myself"). Introductions tend to be the least formal among younger Ponies and among lower class Ponies (though even lower class Ponies may ape the manners of the upper classes, often hilariously badly). As always, the upper middle classes are often more precisely correct in their behavior than are the actual upper classes.

Addressing somepony to whom one has not been introduced, without some phrase of social lubricant such as "pardon me" or "allow me", is considered to be rude in varying degrees depending on the nature of the conversation. Stallions are expected to show more courtesy to mares than the other way round, though politeness from both sexes is encouraged. (One is not expected to engage in elaborate honorifics when warning somepony of imminent bodily peril, for instance, though the possible humor value of somepony saying "Pardon me, miss, but I have noticed that the house is on fire. I recommend that we step outside." should never be ignored).

One exception to this is that, of course, within a particular "set" it is very likely that the Ponies will have all known one another for years -- membership in some "sets" is multi-generational, with the children of the members having grown up around one another at the parties held by the adult members of the "sets." You can see this in microcosm in the friendship of Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon at Ponyville; they belong to the tiny circle of the really wealthy at Ponyville (comprised of two families). If the Riches and the Silvers had any sons, they would need no introductions to any members of the other family.

Among the upper classes, great formal parties are held at which debutantes "come out" and are formally-introduced to other members of Society (often in bewildering numbers, with introductions far beyond the ability of most Ponies to remember). The point of all these introductions is of course social lubrication -- once introduced, one is permitted to remind another Pony of the fact and it is no longer impolite to converse ("Pardon me, Miss V. I am X Y. You may remember me, we were introduced at the ball held by P Q last spring?") This may be accompanied by an exchange of personal cards (depending on the situation). Prominent Ponies have drawers full of them and some employ social secretaries to organize this information.

Upper class formal parties are reported on in the Society columns as news events, complete with lists of all prominent attendees, and Ponies who are in Society (or wish to be) devour this sort of information, because it can be of vital importance to them -- one of the key ways to show that one belongs in Society is knowledge of who is already in Society and what they are doing.

There are also upper class informal parties, which are also very important as places where one may make the acquaintanceship of other upper class Ponies. The informal parties are usually rather wilder than the formal ones, though in a manner governed by complex rules of discretion. More on that later.

The middle classes attempt to copy the upper classes, though their events are less likely to be reported upon. They tend to copy the formal parties more than the informal ones, because they know less about the informal ones. Even the lower classes have their public parties, which are generally a lot wilder than the public parties of the upper classes (though often more respectable than the private ones).

Other common ways of two Ponies of the opposite sex meeting and being introduced are through common friends or relatives. The advantage of this sort of meeting is that there is a common friend or loved one whose good opinion matters to both the other Ponies (creating greater mutual trust) while there is a distinct lack of a vast public audience in front of which one may embarrass oneself.

A century or two ago, occupations were sexually-segregated because of the estrus problem. This is increasingly no longer the case, and in consequence office romances are now quite common. Such are natural, when one throws young adult Ponies together in situations of close mutual cooperation, but they can be dangerous because in the case of a failed courtship bad feelings may damage the careers of one or both of the Ponies involved.

B. Acquaintance and Friendship

As in the case of country courtship, there is usually a stage in which the two Ponies involved regard each other in an increasingly friendly fashion. Having been introduced, they spend some time getting to know one another non-romantically, and this leads them eventually to decide upon an actual courtship. There is a distinct tendency in city courtships for this to happen more rapidly, because the consequences of a failed courtship (at least in the early stages) are less severe than in a country courtship, for the very good reason that it will be easier for the former couple to avoid one another after a break-up.

Still, these are Ponies, a naturally-friendlier and less-predatory species than are Humans. In consequence, they are far more likely, compared to Humans, to characterize this stage of courtship in terms of friendship than predation. Even in the big city, it's better to have friends than victims. Few Ponies will consider romantic intimacy with non-friends, and the Pony ideal still favors friendly rather than hostile break-ups.

C. Calling and Visiting

Among all classes of Ponies it is next considered proper for the stallion to pay calls upon and visit the mare at her family's home, generally with her family present. There are several purposes for this custom. It involves an implicit public declaration to the mare's family that he is interested in her. It involves an opportunity for the stallion to further befriend the mare, and (very importantly) befriend her family (who will after all become his family should they wed). And this can all be done under respectable circumstances -- he obviously isn't having sex with her in front of her family -- and ones in which some degree of privacy is possible after a while if the family sufficiently approves of him (depending on the couple and her family, anything from enough to have romantic conversations to her all the way up to enough for actual sex to ensue).

Technically, the difference between a "call" and a visit is that a "call" is very short (generally around 15 minutes) and mostly formal, whle a "visit" is longer (hours) and involves more informal interaction. Early in a courtship, the stallion might pay purely formal calls (though with a distinctly flirtatious undertone), while a bit later on he might reasonably be expected to receive invitations to dinners and private family parties at her home, at which he might spend a long time conversing with her and her family, allowing them to come to know (and hopefully approve of) him.

Obviously, the lower we go on the social scale, the less formal will be all this behavior. For instance, the full ritual of formal calling is rarely practiced below the middle classes, and almost unknown among the lower middle class. Even among the working classes, though, it would be seen as terribly disrespectful to a mare to refuse a request to meet her family before seeing her romantically and alone -- it would signify that the stallion thought of their relationship as nothing more than a potential sexual conquest, and would likely lead to an immediate (and angry) rejection on her part (unless she really were light-tailed).

Calling and visiting implies the start of explicitly romantic interest between Ponies. The degree of physical intimacy at this stage of a relationship is rarely great, usually just flirtation, with some hoof-holding and perhaps hugging or kissing. Knowing that her family has just left you together in the parlor or on the porch for a few mintues discourages attempting much more -- though, if the couple is old-fashioned enough that they progress right to engagement from this stage, one would be surprised how much privacy two outwardly respectable young Ponies might not be able to manage.

Telephones

Telephones were invented within the last few decades and are very much still limited to the upper and upper-middle classes. The customs of telephone-calling have not yet fully settled down, though it is generally understood by all but the most hidebound of the older Ponies that the potential for naughtiness over a copper wire is somewhat limited, and hence that telephone calls do not require the same sort of informal chaperonage as calls in person.

Talking dirty over the phone was probably invented very soon after the invention of the private telephone. Currently, though, there is some restraint due to the fact that the connections still have to be done by live operators, who can (theoretically at least) listen in to the calls. Also, these are frequently party lines -- consult any romance or comedy movie from the 1940's or earlier to observe the potential social effects of such situations.

(Celestia, who remembers Pony telephone culture from having been Sundreamer over four millennia ago, finds this all absolutely hilarious).

D. Going Out Together or "Dating"

Under older urban norms, it was not entirely respectable to go out alone with somepony one with whom one did not have at least a formal engagement. Various systems of chaperonage were used to circumvent potential scandal; a very common one being for the courting couple to bring along other members of their families, especially siblings (now that picnic scene from the origin of Sunset Shimmer, with Shining, Cadance and Twilight all out in a park together looks a bit different to you, doesn't it?).

One of the many implications of estrus suppressors that a couple keeping unchaperoned company together has become more respectable. Among earlier generations, lower-middle and working-class couples did this quite often, though it was always seen as a rather daring thing to do, and an indication that the courtship was becoming serious.

Going out together is increasingly common among the younger generation; it is essentially similar to "stepping out togther" in the countryside, but no longer bears as many rustic connotations. Among the generation currently in their twenties, it is even becoming common for going out together to take the place of the initial calls and visits more popular among the previous generation -- though a respectable mare would still want the stallion to meet her family before things went too far.

The youngest generation -- those who are now in their teens -- are starting to call this activity "dating," a contraction of "making a date to go out with" somepony else, and the term is starting to spread to the twenty-somethings. They regard the whole concept of calling and visiting as a precondition for dating to be a bit outdated. This attitude is especially becoming the case among the Ponies of Taura, who are living fast in consequence of the Great Tauran War; it will spread to Equestria as the Shadow Wars lead to a similar attitude on their side of the Stormy Sea.

"Dating" definitely implies romantic interest, and ususally some degree of physical intimacy to the extent of hugging, nuzzling, and kissing. It does not necessarily imply anything further. However, since the couple is wandering around unsupervised together, it is certainly possible that they are finding enough privacy for light or heavy petting, and possibly even full sexual intercourse. This is especially true if they are attending the wilder sort of parties together.

E. Betrothal and Engagement

At some point a formal proposal will occur (in Equestrian culture, it may be from either the stallion or the mare) and (hopefully) be accepted. This act is called "betrothal" and a couple who are betrothed are in the city often referred to as being "engaged" (to be married). The actual wedding date may be immediately set, or postponed for some period of time. Engagements may be short (though they are generally at least a week to a month to give time to prepare the wedding) or long (months or years are not uncommon).

A betrothal will normally be announced to the families and friends of the couple. Engagement is a very serious committment; for instance, breaking an engagement for insufficient cause theoretically opens the Pony who has done this to a breach-of-promise suit (though in the vast majority of cases, such suits are not actually brought as they are emotionally-unpleasant). A couple who has reached the stage of engagement may be assumed to be rather physically-intimate with one another, possibly to the point of full sexual intercourse. (In the latter case, this may lead to rescheduled wedding dates to avoid the embarrassingly-early appearance of foals).

F. Cohabitaton, aka "Trial Marriage" or "Living Together"

This is in some cases an additional step intervening between going out together and marriage, which may occur before or after a formal engagement to marry. This involves the two Ponies actually setting up and running a household together, and possibly sleeping together.

This is a very recent development, and practiced only among those most willing to abandon at least some elements of more traditional moral codes. It is often conceptualized as a "trial marriage," and in law after enough time cohabiting in this fashion (generally seven years) it may be recognized as marriage even without an actual marriage ceremony or formal registration. This last situation is termed a "common-law" marriage.

A high degree of sexual intimacy is normal in a cohabitation, which may or may not reach full sexual intercourse (one reason why the couple might not wish it is that this is a trial marriage, and full sexual intercourse could produce some fairly permanent consequences in the form of foals). Trial marriages are not considered entirely respectable, but are becoming more common among younger Ponies, and will (along with short engagements) become even more common under the stresses of the Shadow Wars.

Cohabitation has always been common among the lower classes, who often lack the resources for a "proper" wedding but want to get started on love and foals. It is not uncommon in such cases for a lower-class couple to cohabit for years, claim to be married, wind up married in common law, and eventually (when they've saved up the bits) stage a formal wedding.

G. Marriage

As in the country, marriage is the final stage of courtship, and usually lasts until one of the parties dies. As I've discussed elsewhere, homosexual and polyamorous marriages are both legal in Equestria, but they are uncommon -- the vast majority of marriages involve two Ponies, one of whom is a stallion and the other a mare. Also as in the country, full physical intercourse and the production of foals is a normal part of a Pony marriage, being two of the main purposes for which the institution was invented.

II. Other Kinds of Courtship

A. Arranged Marriages

It was once common, especially among upper and even middle-class Unicorns, to arrange marriages as a form of familial alliance. During the Age of Thrones such arrangements could even be enforced against the will of the couple involved, though of course marrying off the unwilling was unwise for obvious social reasons. Over the last millennium, the ability of families to compel their children into arranged marriages has almost entirely vanished (and the illegality of doing so is now enforced), and the even the vestigal custom (where suitable stallions and mares are presented to one another in the hopes of encouraging a match) has retreated up the social register to the point where it is now practiced only among the oldest and highest of the Unicorn families.

(If I tell you that Twilight Velvet and Night Light are almost that highborn, does the scene in "Neigh Anything" where they happily greet the teenaged Cadence look a bit different in retrospect? Have you noticed a theme here about them that establishes a commonality with "Cutie Mark Chronicles" -- that they are very anxious to secure the success of their children?)

Young noble or royal Unicorns are quite aware of the fact that they don't have to marry matches of their parents' choice, and of the fact that there nevertheless are Ponies their parents would prefer they marry. And they milk this divergence of interests for all it's worth. One should never assume that it is only parents who manipulate their offspring. This leads to the next topic under discussion.

B. Advantageous Matches

One should also never assume that young Ponies are romantic idealists. Because they often aren't, even though they are more likely to be than are older Ponies. Especially among royal, noble, gentle or merely wealthy families, advantage is an important consideration in marriage.

Though Equestria is a kindlier culture than is the modern West, it is also a less-wealthy culture. One of the implications of this is that success in life may depend a lot on into whose family one has married. As I mentioned elsewhere, among Earth Ponies the stallion marries into the mare's family; among Pegasi the Pony of lesser status marries into the family of greater status, and Unicorns have both an old patrilineal and an more recent matrilineal tradition (being thus "bilineal").

The two coins of making advantageous matches are wealth and status. Wealth is a combination of one's assets and one's expectations -- an heir may not be wealthy in his own right but may be (literally) courted for his expected inheritence; a rising businessmare may be of moderate wealth today but desired because she is on the way up. Status is a combination of ascriptive (family background) and achieved (personal merit). For instance, Fluttershy has high ascripitive status because she is the High Lady of the Pegasi, while Rainbow Dash has high achieved status due to her personal prowess in athletics and combat. I have elsewhere engaged in a discussion of the Equestrian class system.

The general rule is that one only makes an advantageous match in marrying somepony of lower wealth if he or she has higher status; and vice versa: one may only make an advantageous match in marrying somepony of lower status if he or she has higher wealth. Ideally, one marries somepony of equal or higher wealth and status, but that is usually possible only as a love-match; such a match is generally termed "brilliant" for the lower-ranking Pony, and "scandalous" if the gap in wealth and status be too great.

There are no shortage of young Ponies who don't care a whit for love, or even friendship, as long as they can marry somepony of greater wealth or status. (Though they usually don't want to marry Ponies they outright hate and despise, since that makes for an uncomfortable bed in which to lie, both figuratively and often literally). This of course leads to a topic of great interest in any Equestrian city, especially among Society (where it is most common).

C. Adultery

Though those who make marriages for reasons of family pressure, or the personal desire for wealth and status, may more often than one imagines come to love their spouses, it is not infrequent for such considerations to lead to loveless marriages. The usual consequence is Adultery.

Jolly Country Parties

Upper-class Ponies have ample opportunities to practice discreet adultery. In addition to their town houses they maintain country houses, sometimes more than one, at which they can throw informal country parties. One of the main purposes of such parties is often the practice of adultery.

The point of throwing a large party -- aside from the pleasant companionship of many other Ponies who are one's friends and acquaintances -- is that the size of the gathering acts as effective chaperonage, if one is not in the set and thus is not in the know. It is suspicious if Lord High Hat invites Lady Pretty Fan, each of them married to other Ponies, to his country estate alone with the servants. It is not at all suspicious if Lord High Hat, Lady Pretty Fan, their spouses, and a dozen or so of their friends and their spouses, all go off to the country estate for a jolly week or so. A week that may be even more jolly given that High Hat's wife and Pretty Fan's husband also have lovers, who have also been invited to the gathering.

The main rule of such events is discretion. Everypony may know who is cheating on their spouses, and even with whom they are cheating. These love affairs may be very serious, they may be totally monogamous (with the official spouses now sleeping in seperate bedrooms), and may last for many years or even decades, and eveypony in the set knows about them. But there is only the most restrained public displays of affection, even of verbal flirtation, between the adulterous couples -- whatever goes on behind closed bedroom doors, or in isolated gazebos or glens away from the main house. Others may accidentally see or hear certain scandalous things, and best friends may know intimate secrets, but one does not speak of them in public.

I'm not saying, mind you, that all jolly aristocratic country parties are but facades to mask adultery. Though many of them are, in part or in whole. Yes, even the ones to which the children get invited -- they're just kept away from such going-ons. Hopefully.

The Lesser Orders

Adultery also occurs among the middle and lower classes. It's often not managed quite so well. Less resources mean less resources for concealment. Among the middle classes, respectability is more important than among the upper classes, and internal restraints may be stronger. Among the lower classes, there may either be a rigid respectability in the hopes of rising to the middle classes, or a complete lack of restraint, with rivalry over beloveds accompanied by shocking and even occasionally-violent scenes. The underclass is revolting.

And you wonder why Applejack is leery of using her Truth Vision?

As long as the rule of discretion is followed, things may hum along in (a sort of covert) Harmony for decades and decades. When it isn't followed, trouble may ensue.

D. Divorce

Divorce is legal but considered shameful in Equestria; it is considered an admission of failure. In the case of rich and influential families it can have major economic and political consequences. In the case of middle-class families it often taints the reputations of the participants. The lower classes often don't bother to get married until they are fairly sure they won't get divorced, which is one reason for trial marriages (which require no divorces).

One of the main reasons divorce is considered shameful is the effect it has on the children of any marriage. It is considered most shameful to divorce if one has minor children. Divorce does less harm to one's reputation if one has no children, or only adult children. As in many things, Equestrians are very protective of their colts and fillies. Custody of children is most frequently awarded to the mothers, though it may be to the fathers if the mothers are demonstrably uninterested in caring for the children.

In my fanon, Bulk Biceps is divorced and has custody of his son Featherweight. It is well known that his wife initiated the proceedings, and for fairly inadequate causes. She's moved out of the area, where she need not even tell anypony she ever had any children. Bulk feels ashamed of his failure to be an adequate husband and fears he is an inadequate father, even though it's mostly not his fault. Such is the frequent unfairness of life, even in Equestria.

E. The Fast Set

There are some Ponies who opt out of the whole system of courtship and practice what amounts to Free Love, by which I here mean not "marrying whom they choose" or even "loving whom they choose," but essentially sex of varying degrees of casualness. There are various reasons for this, but a very common reason is a more or less promiscuous family background, where either the mother, or the father, or both were themselves Fast Set and continued to behave as such after marriage and childbirth (Stormfront comes out of that sort of family). In other cases, this being science fantasy, there may be more fantastic reasons (Cloud Kicker summoned and merged with Winning-Through-Degradation, an intangible demon from the Shadowverse).

The vast majority of members of the Fast Set are either young Ponies with too much money and time on their hands who will behave like this for a few years, then fall in love for real with somepony and drop out of the Fast Set; or young Ponies with plenty of time on their hands but not enough money, who join the Fast Set in the hopes of seducing Ponies with more money than they have themselves and getting various favors out of them. Sometimes they wind up falling in love for real too, sometimes they win their stakes and get out in time, and sometimes they wind up middle-aged, lonely and emotionally-damaged. The Fast Set doesn't really care which.

Members of the Fast Set often are or become Lone-Mad (it's particularly insidious because they are physically surrounded by other Ponies, just not Ponies who care about them). Pegasi are over-represented in the Fast Set for various cultural reasons, but to regard Pegasi and the Fast Set as identical sets would be very wrong: most Pegasi are not promiscuous, and most members of the Fast Set are not Pegasi.

The Fast Set can be subdivided by how serious they are about their membership -- for every genuine member of the Fast Set, there are probably several posers who go to some of their parties and then talk excitedly about how naughty everypony else was behaving for months afterward. The hardcore Fast Set are at serious risk of disease, drug addiction, and suicide. The posers are mosly in danger of getting drunk and doing something they'll regret afterward.

(Those not of the Fast Set who get sucked into their games are in greater danger, especially if they are naive -- as a 12-13 year old Rarity Belle found out when she was away at school in Fillydelphia).

Following the conclusion of the bloody and indecisive Great Tauran War (1500-1504), the Fast Set in Taura will swell, led by pseudo-intellectuals who decree that the horrors of the war mean the bankruptcy of all morality and civilization. These mostly upper-class Bright Young Things (so called because many are unicorns who like to play with light spells) establish a social movement which spreads to Equestria, though most of the Equestrian adherents will simply be posers, often called "flappers" (because of the popular identification of the Fast Set with the Pegasi, which will deeply annoy many non Fast Set Pegasi).

All this will look fairly innocent when the real horrors of the Shadow Wars hit home in the 1510's, and Equestria and the whole Earth find themselves in an open and escalating fight for their survival against alien Cosmic evil.

Conclusion

Such is the course of Love among urban Equestrian Ponies c. YOH 1500. It is not perfect, because Ponies aren't perfect, but it for the most part tries to adhere to Harmony and Friendship.

Our own species has rarely, if ever, done better.

Report Jordan179 · 972 views ·
Comments ( 17 )

You used Stages of Courtship's "C" twice :pinkiehappy:

Please never stop making these. They are always fantastic.

(Celestia, who remembers Pony telephone culture from having been Sundreamer over four millennia ago, finds this all absolutely hilarious).

What?

There's references to things like the Shadow War that make me feel like I just started reading a book two thirds of the way through. Do I catch up by reading your other fanfics in this universe you've made (should I just assume all of your fics count?) or previous blog posts? They're interesting, but confusing and feel alien to me.

2367950

I kind of wrote my fanfics in a variant of the PonyPOVerse of Alex Warlorn, but with my own take on events and a slightly different chronology. The Age of Wonders, which ended four millennia ago in the Cataclysm, saw the rise and fall of a Pony civilization with a level of technology rivalling or exceeding that of Earth in the early 21st century, which nearly made it to colonize the rest of the Solar System. Celestia was alive then in the incarnation of Sundreamer Finemare, a nuclear physicist.

2367999
Wow. I read a lot of the POVverse a long time ago and none of that apocalypse and technology was so much as hinted at during what I read. Is there a timeline blog post that can get me caught up? Am I to assume that your fics take place before or during the Shadow War?

Thanks for not putting this IN STORY. This belongs OUT OF STORY, not cluttering up the narrative.

2368649

Great Celestia, how would I put all this in story? Have the whole story stop and have Twilight Sparkle say:

"As you know, Applejack, we urban Ponies approach courtship a bit differently than do you rural Ponies. When we enter the world of towns and cities ... (insert whole essay here). Now do you understand it better?"

Heh, I don't think that even Twilight Sparkle would do that!

2368649
2368694 It's kind of like going backstage. There's a reason people enjoy doing that. I certainly do.

This is all VERY Edwardian. I'm a giant fan of very early 20th century stuff, including the music, the dancing, and the clothes, and I'm strongly reminded of the etiquette presentations by my friend Walter Nelson. One of the thing Walter's very good at is bringing out the gap between "proper behavior" and "stuff people really did," and also the difference between what appears in etiquette manuals that were really designed for people like Rarity--aspiring members of the bourgeoisie--and all the regional and cultural variations. I'm sure you probably know that the white wedding dress was far from universally worn. A young woman on the Western frontier wouldn't have a white dress that would look terrible very soon. She'd wear her best, whatever that was, maybe with a veil. Even upper-class brides who wore white dresses wore them during the rest of that year as one of their best dresses. The idea of having a costume that resembled nothing they ever wore, wearing it once, and then sealing it up would have been crazy!

If divorce is considered shameful, what would the attitude be towards, say, a wife whose husband was abusive? Would that be considered a failure on her part? I hope not.

(One is not expected to engage in elaborate honorifics when warning somepony of imminent bodily peril, for instance, though the possible humor value of somepony saying "Pardon me, miss, but I have noticed that the house is on fire. I recommend that we step outside." should never be ignored).

Oh, no. Proper forms of address during a fire are very important.

2368739

If divorce is considered shameful, what would the attitude be towards, say, a wife whose husband was abusive? Would that be considered a failure on her part? I hope not.

I'm guessing that it would be considered a failure on both their parts by those who only knew that they'd divorced, and on his part by those who knew the whole story. One major difference between my mock-Edwardian Equestria and the actual Edwardian Age is that Equestria is mildly-matriarchal rather than moderately-patriarchal.

By the way, did you like my ponification of the terms "Bright Young Thing" and "Flapper?" :rainbowlaugh:

2368751 I did! I thought those were hilarious!

I'd like to think that a sensible pony like Twilight might consider that you never really do know the whole story, and judge the parties by their subsequent behavior. In the case of Bulk and his former wife, for example, it's pretty clear who behaved badly and who didn't.

Otherwise, I would think that Equestria would be badly in need of a Wilkie Collins.

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AJ I think would have gone catatonic before the lecture was halfway over.

Twilight, "Why do these soap boxes keep appearing underneath me?"

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Well, the Mane Six actually do tend to like Bulk -- he's very obviously a nice guy; they know that the divorce wasn't his fault, and they respect how hard he tries to help Featherweight and Scootaloo. Rainbow Dash likes Bulk, and given her situation of direct rivalry with him she wouldn't if he wasn't a good Pony.

Twilight's young, somewhat innocent and more than a bit prudish, but she knows better than to assume that Ponies who look good necessarily are good, or that those who look bad necessarily are bad. She's been raised around a Royal Court, after all, and she's seen some serious manipulators in action. Come to think of it, three serious manipulators (Fluttershy, Pinkie and Rarity) are among her trusted friends, though they're good Ponies.

Technically Bright Young Things and Flappers belong to the future, but it's the pretty near future and so I couldn't resist mentioning them here and providing them an etymology which I think the Royal Toponymist Herself would have liked.

Oh, and incidentally I wrote the bit about "Cohabitation" after reading Strong Poison, by Dorothy Sayers, for the first time all the way through. Excellent book, and Harriet Vane is a classic strong female character. It's set in 1930 (two decades after the Edwardian Era ended, and specifically after the Proud Tower itself had fallen to the Great War) but it's fascinating as an examination of morals in transition -- both Lord Peter and Harriet are in some ways tolerant of the new ways but much prefer the old ones, which is at the heart of their love story. Harriet's backstory is a very strong indictment of just how a Fast Set can take advantage of those who drift into its orbit.

2368826 Oh, yes--I'm very familiar with Strong Poison and its sequels. Sometimes Harriet's sense of "honor" gets a bit old for me. After several years of nonsense, you just want to shriek, "we get it, we get it, you made your point about marriage and not taking advantage and all of this. Now will you just shut up and marry him already?" But the idea that cohabitation is sold to her as a moral principle and that she believes it, and her subsequent actions, are REALLY interesting. While I can't see Applejack getting into a situation like that in the first place, it's fairly easy to imagine that she would have a similar response: "You lied to me. It's over."

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Sometimes Harriet's sense of "honor" gets a bit old for me. After several years of nonsense, you just want to shriek, "we get it, we get it, you made your point about marriage and not taking advantage and all of this. Now will you just shut up and marry him already?"

Sayers was of course milking the Unresolved Sexual Tension for all it was worth -- she must have (understandably) feared that once they actually got married, her readers might lose interest. Though I know that Busman's Honeymoon takes place after they wed, and it was apparently popular enough. It's hard for me to evaluate the motives of writers in the much more limited pre-electronic market, when a bad decision to change the situation could really doom a series.

Ironically it wasn't so much any plot twist that ended the Lord Peter Wimsey stories, as Sayers' own decision to return more to academic and philosophical work. I would suppose, given her strong interest in Christianity and moral philosophy (which is also shown in her characterization of the heroes and villains of her tales) that this was simply more important to her -- I like detective and adventure stories, so I'm sorry she didn't writer more. Jill Patton Walsh wrote two more Wimsey books, which I haven't read.

But the idea that cohabitation is sold to her as a moral principle and that she believes it, and her subsequent actions, are REALLY interesting.

The precise way in which Philip Boyes takes advantage of Harriet Vane is interesting. and probably meant to illustrate philosophical principles about honesty. He meets Harriet, who is against premarital sex, seduces her, and for love of him she is willing to live with him as his mistress -- because he's convinced her that this represents an honest expression of love. Then, after a time he declares himself willing to marry her "to make an honest woman of her" essentially, and clearly conceives of what he is doing as a favor to her for which she should be grateful. Interestingly, Lord Peter is one of the few people (maybe the only one) in-story who undersands precisely why Harriet's reaction to this proposal was fury, rather than gratitude. I think most readers of the novel can understand her reasoning.

And yes, I think that AJ in Harriet's position would be furious as well. And she might have wound up in Harriet's position -- she has a very strong capacity for love, and also a strong concern with personal honesty.

I think that Harriet's reluctance to marry Lord Peter stemmed from fear that he would regard such a marriage as his rescuing her and fail to respect her personally. If Harriet has a besetting sin, I think it's Pride. She has a very strong sense of honor and is proud of it.

The same, of course, is true of AJ. I think AJ and Harriet would have understood each other perfectly well.

I want to say your world building is of deep depth. I figure in the case of this topic, would Twilight go with City Courtship regarding Luna though instead of Country Courtship?"

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Hard to say. Twilight's expectations are formed by the city, wherein she was raised. She's both sexually-conservative on the one hoof, highly-pragmatic on the other (and hence rather impatient with appearances), and she's cosmopolitan and knowledgeable in the customs of many places and times, not just her own.

What all this means is that Twilight would consider actually having sex with somepony a really big step, but more out of her own sense of decency than appearances -- she'd be annoyed if anypony criticized her actions on the basis of mere decorum -- and she makes allowances for Luna's Fish Out Of Temporal Water nature (We see this in the comics, where she she's no longer shocked by Luna bursting into the Royal Canterlot Voice inappropriately or saying things insensitive by modern standards).

Luna is courting her not only under a variant of the conventions of "courtly love," but one Luna has deliberately modified to maximize the growth of friendship and tease Twilight with forgotten knowledge. She's doing it this way because she doesn't want to scare Twilight off, she wants to slowly awake her memories of her earlier incarnations (and of being Dusk Skyshine in particular), and because she knows Twilight's a sucker for ancient forgotten knowledge.

It's working -- Twilight is starting to be thrilled by Luna's company in a way beyond mere friendship. Luna figures she can keep on this way for a few more years to a decade and get her to the point of proposing with a very good chance of success. This is not a normal Equestrian courtship, for all sorts of reasons, but it's the kind that Luna thinks is likely to work best.

Various nasty machinations on the parts of enemies are likely to interfere with one or another part of Luna's plan. But then, Luna took to heart what Wind Whistler taught her long ago about focusing on strategy. Though Luna's much more tactical and a bit less strategic than was Wind Whistler.

Wind Whistler probably didn't think that this would be employed by Luna to court her timelost reincarnated love, but then she thinks that the Art of War is universally applicable. Windy's probably amused by the whole situation from her POV inside Discord.

It would be difficult then I figure for Luna and Twilight to reach that level of relationship you display them having in the Twelfth Equestriad Interview. I understand that helping Twilight remember her past live as Dusk Skyshine could aid towards this goal though.

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