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A minor followup to the previous post · 11:47pm
While most of the users that commented on the previous news post seemed to be in support of our decision, there were a few dissenting opinions - less than I expected, but I definitely expected them. As we've said in previous news posts, the people who post on our blog are NOT indicative of even the majority opinion on the site. This is easily demonstrated when you imagine that even though most of the people who posted seemed to dislike meta fiction, it still gets a huge number of views and thumbs up, and is often featured. Obviously, there's a disparity there.
Now, we still aren't planning to lift the ban yet, however, I did have an idea for a compromise. Our primary issue with meta fanfiction is that it tends to clog the featured box every time it's posted, which basically means that legitimate fanfiction has no chance of getting up there. Plus, it leads to people purposefully vying for the featured box with their stories - there's even a story on the site with that exact premise. This is a huge problem in our eyes, and it's also incredibly cheeky.
The proposal, then, is that we (the admins) can "mark" certain fics so that they cannot be featured at any point. This would probably only apply to meta fiction, but could be a useful tool for other stories. This essentially allows metafiction to still be posted on the site, but frees up the featured box for legitimate stories. Since our primary goal with the featured box is for new authors and stories to be discovered (and NOT for users to vie for a position in it), we banned meta fiction so that it would continue to serve that goal.
So what do you think? Would this be a good compromise? Users who enjoy meta fiction (which we think is a good amount) and users who do not (which also appears to be a good amount) should both be happy with a system like this. It should be much easier to "ignore" this sort of thing if you dislike it.
Oh, and don't worry about this being extra work for us - our job is to make the users happy, and we're constantly striving to make as many people happy as possible. Of course, you can't please everybody, so this is a constant struggle for us. Let me know what you think about this proposal in the comments!
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Comments ( 219 )
This, Poultron...this is good! I like it!
Seriously, well done, Lad!
I still feel bad about everything over the last few days, but still, this isnt about that.
You've definitely earned my respect, and this is definitely a working that'll truly make people happy, so that everything works.
This is what I think of you Poultron.
This actually sounds like a wonderful compromise. Maybe some manner of filtering meta-fiction so people specifically looking for it can still find the good stuff, since the feature box will no longer be available?
This is... Well, yes, this is good.
I mean, I might have to search for metafictions to find them, but hey, they're still there.
I like this idea. Go, mods!
I agree that the marking of stories would be a good system, but you'd need to be VERY careful with it. It could cause outcry if someone felt they were being unjustly targeted.
Since the feature box is "for new authors and stories to be discovered", will you be more likely to block authors with large numbers of watchers?
>>159478
no, sorry. it's not a genre so there's nothing we can really do about that. ask people to just put the word "meta" somewhere in their description, perhaps? it's sort of similar to asking us to make a "troll" tag, it just isnt a genre, so we wont do it.
Practical and a good compromise, I think it is a great idea. Alternatively you could add a sixth slot to the featured box that will only ever be held by these 'marked stories'. That way they can still get recognized for their work but you won't have a constant stream of meta fics blocking up the entire featured box. Just an idea.
-N64Fan
perfect on all accounts! Now why can't other issues be solved this easily?
I think this is a good idea. It seems like it should allow stories (metafics for now, maybe other stuff later) that don't need to be featured not to be featured, instead of leaving it up to the current popularity system model.
One thing, though, that continues to perplex me:
"Since our primary goal with the featured box is for new authors and stories to be discovered"
If this is the goal of the featured box (which Knighty actually told me it wasn't), then why did you cut down the number of new slots to three? For that matter, why isn't there a time limit, so stories don't get into positive feedback loops and choke up the box for the better part of a week?
I asked these questions when the change was made, but I never got an answer.
>>159484 I hate when other people are right... but yeah that's fair enough.
I'm ok with this
>>159482
we are almost certainly only going to be using this to mark meta fiction, but you are right to be skeptical about abuse. all i can say is that right now we have no plans to use this to "groom" the featured box manually.
I just don't bother posting when there are so many comments. I doubted anything I would have asked would have been seen anyways.
I'm guessing that for every comment, there had to have been at least 10 other people that wanted to comment but didn't.
EDIT: As for the new plan, I think that it would work very well. A lot of people were getting rather upset because of the way that the feature box worked. I too was getting irritated at all of the metafics that would make it up there, knowing that there are so many more awesome stories that deserved that attention.
>>159485
I'm not sure that would work. I mean, if they did that, what's to stop the next logical step - advertise your fic here (for cash). Not saying they would go that far, but rather there are other things that the site could use instead of another hot slot.
This is eminently reasonable and very helpful. I still don't understand the mentality behind not wanting metafics in the feature box, but I don't have to.
I like the "Mark as unfeaturable" for more than just as a meta-filter. Even if you don't lift the ban, I would still like to see this feature.
>>159493
Fair enough. Just be ready for people who don't read these posts to be flooding your inbox with angry "WTF POLTRON U FAGET" messages.
On that matter, how feasible would it be to add some kind of News/Updates banner/box at the top of the page? I know a good few people who miss out on announcements 'cos they don't visit the main page, just their favourites and messages.
>>159487
a very brief answer is that it's the PRIMARY goal, not the ONLY goal. that's why there's two slots that are (usually) for older stories. these can still help readers discover stories that are new to them, especially if they are new to fanfiction.
Hell yeah! I think this works fine... Allow people to post things that poke fun at themselves and us alike, while not letting them skyrocket straight to the featured box... This method is damn fine. Keep up the good work mods.
>>159503
we're probably going to make news posts send a notification to all users in the future.
Yeah, that's good, do that. Do it for stories with Gilda too.
And ApplePie.
>>159508
That's beautifully simple.
Is good
I think, if you really want to free up the Featured Box, make an option for stories from an author not to be featured. Like, on your use page, select a button that says 'I do not want to be featured'. It could be for people who are shy about attention as a lesser effect, but the main reason is for authors with many followers (AA for instance) to still get their story on the front page and to all their watchers, while still freeing up space in the box for new writers. And, it's optional- no forcing popular authors to give that up, only those with a kind soul.
I feel like that could be a possible solution, or a part of the greater solution such as making metafics unfeaturable.
>>159504
I figured it was something like that. Believe me, I think the inclusion of the old story slots is a pretty good idea. The thing about it, though, is that it takes away those slots from the new stories. I've never seen or had explained to me any reason for the new stories losing those slots. I mean, there must have been a reason, but I just never saw why you couldn't have 5 new and 2 old, or something like that.
That is, both the featured thing and the no-feature mark are really good ideas, and I love them to death. It's just the number of slots in the first one doesn't make much sense to me.
I raise my glass to this idea. Though, I have no idea what fics might just be meta...
>>159515
that's not actually a bad idea. i dont know if it's feasible, but it's not a bad idea. ill ask knighty about it.
What's a "meta" fiction?
>>159495
I.. I'm sorry what?
Can you explain how that is the next logical step?
>>159523
The term meta, as far as being as vague as possible while getting the jist across, is a story about itself. So if you write a story about a story getting to the feature box then its considered to be meta because its a story about a story. Think... recursion mixed with the fourth wall.
Wow I'm bad at explaining aren't I? Anyone want to deal with this for me?
-N64Fan
>>159526
So it's a story about the actual site and the way it works, and not so much an actual fic.
>>159531
Yea pretty much.
yohohoho~
Agreed. I dislike meta fics as well cause, usually, they just aren't funny and it makes it tough to find legit stories, but there are people that like em, so. Whatevs. This will definitely be a good road to take.
This is more than a fair compromise. I like it. And there a couple ideas that have been thrown around in the comments that seem equally reasonable, especially this one: >>159515.
I haven't seen this one though. And if it's been suggested before, I apologize for being repetitive.
I have no idea if this is possible, but is there a way to set a time limit for being on the feature box? Not an overall time limit, but once you've hit so much consecutive time on the feature box, you're done for some amount of time, say a week. Or perhaps you're done until you post a new chapter to the story, at which point your story is relegated to the two spots on the feature box meant for updated stories.
This to me seems a more long-term fix, while the current compromise is more short-term. I could be wrong, though, and what I suggested could turn out to be easy to do.
>>159544
fics already have a time limit. it feels a little too long right now and i've bitched to knighty about it but he doesnt seem to agree so you'll have to convince him to shorten it
I agree with this.
Personally, I still don't like the idea of having meta fiction in the first place. But, that's just my opinion and I'll love and tolerate those with opinions that differ from it.
Sure, this sounds like a pretty good solution. It answers all my objections except for "rar rar how dare you presume to tell us what counts as a 'real story' and what doesn't rar rar now shut up and get back to manning the database engines", which is kind of an artsy-fartsy idealistic 'principle' thing rather than an actual problem.
>>159515
I like this idea!
>>159548
There is a time limit? I should pay more attention to the feature box then...
I'm curious now. How long is the limit?
Wow, Poultron. That is a great solution to the problem, actually. (no, I'm not being sarcastic)
It will disencourage the ones who write metafics just to get to the feature box. This will increase the quality not only of the feature box, but of the metafics as well.
[strike]I was even thinking... meta tag? Since the story wouldn't appear on the feature box, the Meta tag could be like the ones for Gore and Sex, which appear even though you haven't clicked on the story (as some sort of warning, IDK).[/strike]
Read your comment about it and the trollfics. Disregard this paragraph.
[strike][Edit]: A "timer" for the feature box wouldn't be a bad idea either... but I have no idea about what the time limit should be.[/strike]
And yet again, I've read the comments only after I post.
Hey Poultron, here's an idea of mine:
Add a check box or something in the submission specifically designed for Meta or Trollfics. Kind of like its own category, except it's not tagged like say "Comedy" is. Not following this procedure could result in automatic rejection or banning if it persists. With some code, this would also allow for said fic to not be put in the feature box.
But yeah, I'm backing your ideas 100%.
Also, I'm still slightly confused on what defines "Meta," because it can be vague at times. Do fics like "The Great Brony Migration" count as Meta?
>>159556
i actually dont remember... how embarrassing. i think it's 3-4 days.
>>159515 THAT is a wonderful Idea.
Not only do people with ALOT of followers give the others a chance, but it gives people like newcomers a chance to strut their stuff!
>>159562
a better solution is just to fix up our category system. we have some ideas for it, but it's a long term thing and not a simple solution by any means at all. it will require a lot of work design-wise, backend-wise, and also commucation-wise.
Sounds like a great idea to me. Keeps the quality fics up top where they should be, keeps the fics that arent made for the featured box in their funny little corner where we can laugh at every once in a while. I am happy with this.
>>159567
2 days seems pretty reasonable, but it's a small enough thing that I'm not too concerned about it.
You do have to admit that having the option to mark the fic as unfeaturable is still quite useful, meta or not.
... I am a bit hesitant to agree with this. I think that the best way to go about the whole meta-debacle would be to dam the supposed stream of meta-fiction - I.E., only let a little bit of it on the site itself at a time, spacing it out so that the site isn't totally overwhelmed by successive waves of meta.
That seems like it may be difficult, though. If the aforementioned in not possible, then your stated compromise seems like the only solution that could feasibly work.
>>159573
Personally, I don't see much of a problem with it right now but that's probably just me being oblivious. If I can give my two cents, perhaps the addition of a "Mystery" or "Psychological" tag thrown into the mix, along with maybe some new character tags. You could also shorten the amount of time for a fic in the featured category to be like 48hrs, if it isn't already. I honestly forget.
As a side note; I understand being administrators is hard work, which in part is why I try to avoid the position whenever possible
. But it also gives me a ton of respect to you guys for following through with it, despite the ignorant outcries by the community when all you do is try to make things better (remember when character tags were shortened to 5?). Change is hard though, and this is a great, no, the website for, well, FiM-fiction and maintaining the flow of fics must be a great challenge. Keep up the great work and now I tip my metaphorical hat to you.
Go forth, young editor.
(If you're still alive, you're young compared to the expanse of eternity.)
You have my full support.
(Although my support is arguably meaningless, you can have it anyway.)
That does sound like an excellent compromise. Allows people to write metafics while solving the problem with them. I say go for it!
What's THIS? Poultron being KIND? COMPROMISING?? I kid, and this is a great idea. Personally I get a laugh out of metafictions from time to time, but it definitely bugs me that legitimately talented authors go unnoticed because of it. So I think this is a great idea. Three cheers for the mods! Hip hip, hooray!
This is a great idea. I have found a lot of fics that I like by way of the feature box, and lately it seems like the box was getting hoodwinked. and that>>159515 idea sounds nice as well. Though it would sound reasonable to me that the option for a story to be featured should also be available as a per-upload. Popular authors then would have the option to blanket-sweep their profile as opting out of the feature system and less popular authors who simply don't want to have a specific story featured can do that as well. I don't know how the code is structured for the feature system, but it occurs to me that should an author switch back to the feature opt-in there is the possibility that the feature box would get flooded with a bunch of old fics that met the criteria to be featured but never were because of the opt-out flag.
I am very much in favor of this. I don't like meta fiction myself but I understand that some people do. I am not sure if this has been answered already but do you plan on bringing back the section that appears at the bottom of stories that say "If you like this, then you may like these" and it offered story suggestions. I used that that to find many stories that are relevant to what I was interested in reading. Keep up the good work you guys.
I would support it with the condition that authors can see if their story has been flagged to not be featured. That way if they think their story has been flagged unfairly, they can raise an objection with the admins. A simple notice on the story's page that it has been flagged would be fine with me.
Well damn, I already deleted the meta-ish story I was working on yesterday. Now I'll have to re-write it all from scratch
Aw well, shouldn't be too hard. I think this is a great compromise. It DID seem like a meta story was almost a free ticket to the featured box, which isn't fair. I think this is a great way to make it so people can still write and enjoy the meta stories, and the featured box stays clean of being filled with them.
Fair Enough
I like this idea. I would go far in ensuring that the feature box remains free while still allowing us to find all the hilarious satire. But it would also make it somewhat more difficult to actually find said satire. And no addition of a "Meta" tag? Hmm.... Well, since you would be marking these stories anyways, why not go a little further, and let us mark them instead? You could add a new box labeled "Meta" that could be checked when submitting the story (much as there are boxes for "Gore" and "Sex" right now). That way, anyone who wants to can search specifically for that particular brand of humor. This might even work for the "TrollFic" stories as well. I realize this would be a bit of work, but you said not to worry about that, so I won't. I apologize for the long post though, I just felt like I should make my opinion heard and perhaps offer and alternate solution.
~Signed, InfiniteBrony
>>159649
yeah we would probably do something like that. not sure yet, though.
Holy shit. This is the most reasonable I've seen you, Poltron. Whether or not your normal abrasiveness is an act, please keep this up.
Onto the matter at hand (I hope this doesn't get lost in the flood of responses). While this is a bit of a rough compromise, some compromise is better than none. I will admit, I have a literary satire in the works, which may be considered meta because it makes fun of common tropes and cliches. I had tailored a good bit of this towards popular appeal, and I hoped it could get featured, so it would hurt to know I may not get that chance. But it's better that my fic can at least be available but not featured rather than not be allowed at all. Also, at the risk of encouraging the mods to play favorites, the presence of live admins means that well-written works that are not too meta could get featured.
I don't know very much about HTML (or whatever programming language you guys use), but would it be possible to make the last two slots, which use a different algorithm, meta-accessible? Also, will these conditionals apply to inside-joke fics, or will the ban on them stay?
In any case, I appreciate the overall consideration that's been demonstrated in this post. I would like to retract my earlier comment that the mods on the site are abusing their power, as you guys have shown me you have our best interests in mind.
I like this.
So... let's say that there exists a theoretical point in the future where the ban gets lifted and I decide to write a meta-fiction. Or a troll-fiction. Or whatever. Why, I don't know, but this is all theoretical, so ditch the justification. I imagine that I'd feel much better (given the split opinions about these types of fictions) if I were able to include a tag of some sort to alert whatever readers I might have about what they might be getting themselves into as well as give a heads-up to you (wonderful, hard-working, no I'm not trying to flatter you, honestly) mods that this (theoretical) story shouldn't get featured (whether it would actually have a chance or not is another non-relevant matter).
Of course, I suppose I could always just include a warning in the description, too.
>>159671 When a story doesn't get in the featured box, this would also prevent the problem of authors unfairly accusing admins of flagging it when in fact, they had not flagged it. So yes, I definitely think it would be best if authors could see if their story was flagged or not for both reasons.
Couldn't you have Meta-Fiction as a genre. Or even take the same step you do with mature, so there could be a tick that says "Hide Meta Fiction". So people who want/don't care to see Meta Fic can leave it unticked, but people who do want Meta can tick?
I throw my hat into the yes box.
YES!! FOR THE LOVE OF WILLY WOBKA YESM!!
I'm going to say No.
There will be that guy say a month down the road who claims that his fic was unjustly ticked. You guys could be right or he could be right. All I know is it will lead to drama. This drama will lead to anger. This anger will lead to outcry. This outcry will then lead back to you. It will create a ton of drama which i really doubt you want.
I'm generally apathetic on the whole issue but I don't think this is the best course of action.
>>159484
Meta may not be a genre, but it is a specific sort of content.
Sort of like how Sex and Gore are not genres, thus they do not get genre tags. However, they do get "flags" of a different sort such that we can still filter them. Maybe something like that would work?
Anyways, I do like the idea of a blacklist for the featured box. More flexibility is always good, and maybe it can help reveal some ways to improve the "feature determination" algorithm.
Would you also consider putting frequently updated but popular stories on the blacklist? This way, the same few stories don't dominate the feature box every time its updated (not automatically, but based on stories that the algorithm makes "repeat offenders" unintentionally). After a few chapters of being "refeatured", most people who like that story will have watched it by then, so there really is little point for it to keep getting refeatured after every update.
>>159548
What if you change he changes the minimum word count for stories?
Like my story gets featured every night with 1-1.2k word chapters, but maybe make it so a story has to have five thousand words more than the last time it was featured until it can be put up there again. (So instead of me getting up there every night I would get up there every 4-5 nights since my chapters are one thousand words).
That is assuming such a thing is possible.
I have yet another solution (that was brought up in the other post by someone else I believe) that would be even better for everyone, save that admittedly it'd probably involve more coding. Why not have a hard filter system that people can access in their profile/settings to filter out certain kinds of stories throughout the site? That way, people only see what they want, and not what they don't want. People that don't want to see metafics don't have to see them on the front page, their dash, in the featured box, or anywhere else. Same could go for people who don't want to see darkfics, clopfics, shipfics, etc.
I don't see a problem with this, though I do enjoy stories about the mods.
Well, that makes sense, I guess.
Will this also cover the other types of stories mentioned, like 'choose your own adventure' types?
(Which is actually a really clever concept, all things considered, despite their potential for feature-hogging.)
Poultron, I completely respect you, but "cheeky"? REALLY?
Sounds...Smashing!
>>159800
uh, that's probably even MORE work than you're thinking, man. we have to ensure that EVERYBODY always tags their fics correctly, then we ALSO have to go back and make sure that OLD fics are tagged right. not to mention the fact that we already dont like the idea of a meta tag.
Pardon the image, I seem to have been lacking in my image posts this week.
Seems like a good compromise.
I'd also suggest adding a "meta-fiction" tag. That way you wouldn't have to snipe stories individually. You could just have it to where nothing with that tag gets into the feature box. And of course, you don't have to approve people's stories if they write a meta fic and don't tag it correctly.
I'm far too often-tired and stupid to contemplate the consequences of the changes made to policy over the past few weeks, but I appreciate the effort you guys are putting into attempting to make the site a better place. The whole feature box/good new authors getting lost in the sea/proliferation of trollfics thing is a bitch of an issue, and you seem to be doing your best to solve it.
Since I don't want to be Lucy-and-the-football-ed by other users / the mods again in a totally awful public fashion, I've already abandoned the idea of doing meta-fics and I can "deal with it". They are dead to me.
But, separately, I'm sad at learning that the mods prune the featured section so that authors with more followers and with previous featured fix are less likely to get featured again, but... well... I'll deal with that other revelation without doing anything. I'll suppose I'll just "deal with it".
But I really think that said pruning policy is a mistake.
Sounds good to me!
I've been indifferent about all this, but it sounds like a good move. By all means, move forward.
Damn right you're going to do this!
A picture can say a thousand words. But, as most people would never listen to a thousand words written by me, I'll just avoid using images...
For now...
It can't hurt to try it! I like Meta-fiction, but I have noticed that the volume of it has grown recently... it clogging things up is definitely a concern.
Why not at least try it, da?
>>159901 Well, remember this, it's to give people like me a chance!
Otherwise, we'll just see TAW and Troll (The user) stories. it's fair for everyone.
Not to sound rude, but it's to make sure that we can get our own fair share of the spotlight, and so the people with a billion followers dont hog the feature box.
>>159901
uh, we dont do that.
A much better idea than merely banning meta. While meta fics usually don't deserve a feature, people tend to enjoy reading and writing it.
Could you "mark" crossovers too?
>>160006
You want that to happen just because of the ungodly amount of Halo stories, right?
Also, I agree.
DO EEEEET!
>>159982
This. So much this. They've had their time in the spotlight, so let somepony else have a chance!
I think flagging Meta stories to keep them out of the standard feature box is a great compromise. While most meta stuff kinda sucks, there really have been a few gems hear and there, although good or bad they all tread a very fine line as to what should actually count as a story.
If possible though, I think it might be good if it was flag with an associated check box, much like mature content. That way Meta fics can be invisible to those who'd rather avoid them all together, while those that appreciate the genera could not only see them but have them pop up in their own view of the feature box.
>>160021 Agreed!
So says the Dragon Emperor.
Ok, no more of that here.
But yes, it's for balance sakes.
Thanks for all you guys do.
"This actually sounds like a wonderful compromise. Maybe some manner of filtering meta-fiction so people specifically looking for it can still find the good stuff, since the feature box will no longer be available? "
This is a great idea too. Sometimes its fun to read a good meta-fiction. It would be nice to be able to search for it.
>>159477
Well you've stumped me on what that means.
Anyway, this seems like a good compromise. Never really read any meta fiction, but whatever.
>>160021
I oppose any sort of blanket "this author has x followers, so he no longer has feature box privileges" movement. This is then unfair to those authors as they may not get recognition deserved for writing something good in any of their future stories. It will also make it harder for newer fimfiction users to find those old, popular authors who still write new stuff.
However, I have no issue if the rule is instead to give each the author the option to not allow their stories on the feature box. That seems more than reasonable to me.
I like this rule, I think.
So, meta stories still make it but they simply don't get featured? I hope I read that right.
The problem lies with potential for abuse of such a system.
>>160043 it's not that they'll never get on the feature, it's just that they'll get on less.
It's so that people like me will have a chance to shine.
Also, it isnt hard. just look up the user. his stories are right there.
or if it's new, it'll be on the front page, for the time being.
really, it's a balance issue if we kept it the way it is. not only are stories from one person get featured, but it could be from anyone, let's say TAW, and all she'll need is a bunch of her followers to just literally look at it and fav it with no rhyme or reason. The feature box is NOW balanced.
If you want the same person getting the front page, go to EQD. It's a "too uptight for the normal people" site, as they only allow like 1% of the fics they get sent in.