Ichiban! · 7:07am Jul 13th, 2014
A question:
How important is it to you that the Mane 6 are the greatest ponies of their time?
In their skills/profession - Twilight as the smartest scholar in Equestria, Rainbow Dash as the fastest flier ever, Rarity as a timeless fashion icon, Applejack as the farmiest of all farmers, Pinkie Pie as a matchless party planner, Fluttershy as a paragon zookeeper-- I mean a paragon of communicating and caring for animals .
As Elements of Harmony - Twilight's magic being completely limitless, Rainbow Dash so loyal as to put the entire Scorpion Clan in the Legend of the Five Rings to shame, Applejack as the embodiment of all truth, Pinkie Pie as a fountain of unbridled laughter, Rarity as the very essence of generosity, and Fluttershy endowed with messianic kindness.
Does it take away from their characterization if they're not? Do they stop being them otherwise?
Well it might be different for upheaval since the au split was so long ago, but testing the limits of their elements was what season 4 was all about. They are realizing the being paragons of their elements is not always enough. And Pinkie Pie learned that she doesn't have to be the best party planner in equestria to be her, and that's ok.
The answer to the first question, however, is more complicated. AJ doesn't have to be the best farmer, PP doesn't have to be the best party planner, and Fluttershy, while unique with the stare, does not have a monopoly on dealing with animals (look at the dangerous animal tamer at the rainbow falls fair. He's pretty good at what he does). Rarity is clearly not at the top of her game, and whether she makes it or not isn't really critical to her character.
Rainbow Dash and Twilight are different. RD is dedicated to being the best, flying with the best, etc etc. She won best young flyer and is going places. They even had to set up a new Wonderbolts Reserve concept to rein her in. Twilight has been OP since day one, because her special talent is magic and she is the best student because her teacher is celestia. And then she became an alicorn princess. Both of them have excellence embedded into their character.
I prefer it that way you fo it, with other OC's being as good or better than them, but lacking their taits.
I do not think that they need to be the best in their profession. In fact I often think it's silly when they are depicted as these overwhelmingly "perfect" entities. But then again for both Rainbow Dash and for Twilight Sprakle they have both been training since they got their cutie mark to be the very best and training daily and always striving for perfection. I don't have problem with them being among the elite and perhaps even THE best (or at least on their way there).
When I think about it though hasn't all of them done that? Hasn't Rarity and Applejack also done their thing since they got their cutie mark? So why do I think it's ok with TS and RD but not them? I guess it has something to do with the fact that they don't quite strive for perfection in the same sence that RD and TS are. I mean, AJ does her farming work cause it's what she does for a living. She needs to farm cause if she don't they wont have any food, there is no need to be the "best". All she need is to do it, which is exactly what she does. For Rarity I don't see her as the fashonista that simply wants to be the best dressmaker. She wants to be famous and among the elite, the rich and refined royalty and so on. I don't think this has so much to do with the dressmaking in and of itself but rather as a means to and end. As such I don't think she strives to be the "best" fashonista but rather wants to make an imprint in the canterlot elite.
As for the second question. I think they should have a very strong affinity to their element but not necessarily the paragons of their trait. The way I see it is like such that the elements of harmony doesn't need the exact mane 6 to function but rather have 6 ponies that are friends that has one of the different elements each and there are many many ponies at any given time that has said traits but not necessarily friends that has the other elements. As such I think it's perfectly fine that there are others that are more generous or honest and so on. I also want to point out that I don't think that their element is always for the good. They can be corrupt and used for bad or in bad ways many times as well. For example AJ doesn't lie (often), but that does NOT mean that what she says is the truth. She could have been taught that the earth is flat and not round, she would belive as such and say so without lying but it wouldn't make it any more true. For a good example of how Rarity could be "corrupt" or "bad" I'll just direct you to read this story Gift.
Anyway that's just my personal thoughts about this matter.
// Sphex
I've always thought of it not as being the "greatest ponies of their time," so much as being iconic in their native qualities.
I mean, Lightning Dust.... sure, she was self-centered, arrogant, and jaded/callous towards the well-being of others, but she was just as loyal as Rainbow Dash towards her goals. Heck, with a perspective change, she was MORE loyal to herself than RD, willing to put others into harm's way to achieve what she held as important.
Trixie is similarly related (though obviously at a lower power) to magic. What she lacks in overall power, she made up for in creativity and application. Let's face it, she knows levitation, a little weather magic (something that seems rare among unicorns), barrier spells, transmutations, transformations, and more... before the amulet... at which point she didn't learn new spells... she finally had the power to cast them... spells she mastered without the ability to even practice. She's a jerk, but as far as magic goes... she actually is very very skilled.... perhaps as much as Twilight before a study binge.
<shrugs> So, paragons of their respective fields/the best of their time: nah... not important. To me, it's the whole package that makes them the redeemingly[<sic> wonderful and iconic characters.
Besides, if they're <faceplant for the after-the-fact typo correction> automatically the best, there's no room for growth/challenge.... which is one of their collectively best qualities.... overcoming the trials and tribulations of their time.
I think that it's more accurate to say that they have the potential to be the best ever.
They are young, and it would be rather strange for them to already be the pinnacle of their respective professions/attributes.
I feel that wanting to be the best in their fields of expertise is very important for each of them, but that doesn't mean that they actually are the best. And yes, that even includes Fluttershy – see the breakdown at the end of Best Night Ever – and for Applejack that extends to caring for her family.
As for the elements, they have a special connection to those things, but aren't paragons or anything. Applejack can lie, she just isn't very good at it.
To me, Our Heroines being #1, both in terms of their professions and their respective virtues is not a huge factor.
If some other farmer has a bigger plantation than AJ, that suits me.
And there already ARE ponies who 'rank' higher than, say, Rainbow Dash (both in the Wonderbolts and her weather job,) and Rarity's still a rising star in the world of fashion.
Also, I don't think it's necessary that they be the "pure embodiment" of their virtues. I think the Elements are satisfied with a B-grade level, uh... "Embodiment."
AJ's lied from time to time. Rarity's been un-generous in places.
The Elements allow for "human error."
But I think what matters MOST, as far as the Elements are concerned, is how well their Bearers *harmonize with each other.*
Virutes were never meant to exist in isolation from each other, after all.
After all, what good is "overspecializing" on a specific virtue if you still can't harmonize with others? ... The Joker from Batman is all ABOUT "Laughter," for example, but he'll never know true friendship. Their are bullies and villains who are BRUTALLY 100% honest, but they're just bullies and villains.
So I think what the Elements "grade" the girls on is the strength of their friendship first, and their respective virtues second.
And there's no one on the show with a stronger friendship than these six.
I guess that all depends on the author's preference, or on the setting of the story being told.
As for me, I sometimes find it annoying when I read something in which Twilight is some prodigal savant who excels in literally every field of knowledge that could possibly exist. If she really was some hyper-intelligent know-it-all (instead of thinking she's some hyper-intelligent know-it-all at times), she would have avoided half the problems she and her friends experienced in the show. As far as I know, she's just a gifted little unicorn who studies magic, friendship, and rainbows.
Of course, how the Mane Six are ultimately portrayed is up to the author and the context of the universe the story takes place in. If the story is some slice-of-life or takes place in a contemporary setting like Ponyville, then the FiM universe isn't necessarily expanded upon in a significant way, and there's no need to adjust the Mane Six's characteristics to fit a larger tapestry of Equestrian society.
However, if it's an AU or Expanded Universe fic like Upheaval or Austraeoh, then it becomes necessary to account for a plethora of other sentient creatures to compare the Mane Six to. For example, just because Rainbow Dash is fast doesn't mean there aren't other creatures who are faster than her. Or maybe there are creatures who are loyal just like her, or are loyal to a fanatical extent. Perhaps there are other creatures who can wield the Element of Loyalty as well as her, if not better (note how I use "creatures" and not just "ponies" or "equines"). The Mane Six don't necessarily have to be the "chosen ones"; maybe it was just convenient for fate (or Celestia) to gather these particular ponies since they didn't come from so far away. Who knows.
The thing is, FiM didn't set rigid rules on how everything came to be, and how the Mane Six relate to the world at large. As Seasons 3 and 4 prove (if we are to take anything post-Faust seriously, but that's for another time), Pinkie Pie isn't the only party pony (Cheese Sandwich), Rarity isn't the only fashion pony (Coco Pommel), and Rainbow Dash isn't the only speedy pegasus (Lightning Dust). There are loads of inconsistencies and blank holes in the show's established universe (just how good are the Wonderbolts, anyway? Is RD really the fastest? Can no one else break the speed barrier?), which means that there can be a million interpretations of the setting and characters of FiM. Whatever the Mane Six's characterizations are in relation to the overall setting is completely up to the author. If he wants to make Twilight the "Leonardo da Vinci" or the "Albert Einstein" of Equestria (or even the whole world), then he can do so. If he wants Twilight to be a gifted student with fierce competition from other gifted creatures, then so be it. It isn't about what you do with the characters and settings. It's about how you make it all work. And whether it works or not depends not only on the author's skill, but also on the preferences of the reader.
1. The old saying "there's always someone better than you" may or may not apply here. After all, there has to be someone who's the best at what they do, but whether any of the Mane 6 are the best at their professions is both subjective and circumstantial. As long as they're passionate about what they do then that's all that really matters.
2. I've always imagined the EoH as compatible with anyone who represents an Element to a substantial degree and is benevolent in nature. As for whether the Mane 6 are the most qualified in Equestria to wield them, like I said above it's subjective and circumstantial, but in my own mind they don't need to be. Hell, I'd actually welcome a change in the show where we get a new Mane 6 that has to wield the Elements in order to stop some evil force which, for whatever reason, the current Mane 6 can't deal with.
That's my two bits on the topic. Live long and pony on!
Generally, I enjoy being happy with the Mane Six being the best at what they do, because there's nothing in canon that says they aren't the best so long as they apply themselves in a harmonious way with the support of their friends. Mostly this is to avoid making any OC Mary Sueish by defining them by whether or not they're better or worse at something than the Six.
I'm just wary about discussing this sort of thing at all because whenever I see a fanfic that has another really skilled pony (as compared to the mane six that is), they're almost always talked about as some kind of special snowflake. "Oh sure, Twilight's good at magic, but this pony is just BETTER at it." "Oh sure Rainbow's fast, but SUDDENLY this other super fast pony shows up." And so on and so on and so on. It's how they're portrayed, not whether or not anyone's better, that I usually take issue with.
I never really considered the Mane 6 to be the "definitive best" at their respected trades. Personally I enjoy watching characters in any medium go up against an opponent who matches or exceeds them in skill. But that scenario in and of itself doesn't always make for an engaging conflict.
For example the concept of Sunset Shimmer's character was loaded with potential. She was Celestia's old protégée and supposedly a magical powerhouse. Eventually the desire for more power put her at odds against her mentor. Which ultimately lead to Sunset's fall from grace.
The whole thing sounded like a build up for some great showdown.
Two students trained by the same master, conflicting ideologies, equal magical strength and determination. That seems like it would be pretty intense....right?
But instead we got a character with as much personality as a cardboard box. Whose ambitions and skills seemed disconnected from her back story.
I would go on but the point I'm trying to make here is simple. Having characters being the quintessential representation of their skills is boring. Without an opponent or force of nature to contend against, the great talents of our protagonists carry little meaning.
2279816
I agree
I would say that whether you have them be the best or have someone else beat them, you need to be very careful not to step into mary sue territory. It would be very easy to make the story overly focus on how someone is so amazingly good at something that that becomes the whole purpose of their character.
A great example of someone being far and away better than everyone else, while not falling into mary sue is Trixie's first appearance. Twilight is insanely powerful and is able to deal with the ursa in less than a minute, but that wasn't the focus of the episode. The focus was her being uncomfortable with how much better she was, not about how much better she was.
Gotta love how insignificant Fluttershy and Pinkie pie look among their friends
i will say that with the mane six, they have to be very, very competent at the least. they are not necessarily the best in their fields even in the show. while equal in enthusiasm, Chese Sandiwch has more resources than pinkie pie for example. there are ponies more beautiful and fashionable than rarity. rainbow dash is a very fast flier with a rare ability, yet the likes of spitfire have more practice even if lacking that ability. applejack is competent in her field but does not mean others are not equally so. with fluttershy, well i guess it depends on what you are looking for in a caretaker.
heck with twilight she is not even the highest of tier. celestia is sitll more powerful and more skilled with magic, as is luna. to get on the technical side, when she was sitll a unicorn Sombra was superior to power as well.
is one of the few problems i have with your story, and far from a deal breaker. it makes sense tat at the get go, the mane six would not be competent in battle. however they need to grow stronger and start to match those that are paralell to them, be it the thorns or their friends. they do not necessarily need to utterly surpass them, but they need to stand on even ground. course not all of them, as the likes of fluttershy and pinkie are not really well equpped to fight.
actually when it comes with the elements, the Tree, or the elements themselves considering this is a pre tree story, seem to seek those who are not paradigms.
rainbow dash is very loyal yet her ego and ambitions often get in the way of that, and her loyalty visa versa.
twilight is powerful in magic but is naive and, often enough, a little bit erratic and struggles with understanding friendship even as an alicorn.
rarity is generous yet materialistic, and in fact is often too generous to the point of self harm.
applejack is honest and loyal in her own way, yet is proud and stubborn and will go to great lengths to keep her word, even if it hurts her.
fluttershy is kind yet often finds herself mroe submissive than outright kind and is timid. worse is that she has a hard time balancing being assertive and kind and iwll go to either extremes.
pinkie pie fully indulges in her element, and she feels great joy when she brings a smile to the face of others. however so much of her own identity and happiness comes from this altruism and failing to do so, or even rejection, really hurts her.
the elements are not things of pure good, though their uses bring good. it seems the elements choose those hwo struggle most with the virtues that power them, yet are still true to them. for what worth can be compared for the normal pony who goes out of her way to do good compared to the saint who is incapable of doing wrong?
light, dark, and the tiwlight between, that is the components of the elements. the virtues in balance, the virtues' opposites, and the virtues to the point of zealotry. the elements bring balance.......... i gues, in theory, the elements could be used against the extremes of light as well. such as that alicorn general. he is a being of light yet goes to such an extreme that it blinds him to the evil of his intentions. the elements bring balance, and that likely means that those of the extreme of light are as vulnerable to them as those of the extremes of dark.
2280622 i saw a bit more in sunset shimmer. she was driven largely by jealousy towards twilight and that is why she went along with that hwole prom queen thing, so she can prove herself better.
........i always think that the movie could have been a very good movie, rather than an alright one, if they emphasized this more. her showing frustration, even jealousy, towards twilight as she continued to succeed. perhaps her showing more submissivness or discomfort around the principle celestia. perhaps othes to show that ultimately sunset shimmer felt hurt over basically being replaced and craving to just become more.
2280622
Sunset needed an entire season for her backstory and potential to really work. She needed to start small like Twilight Sparkle finding some small piece of equipment in the palace and Celestia making an off-handed comment that it belonged to a former student. She's supposed to be more than a bully and a thief. She's supposed to be an embodiment of one of Twilight's worst fears: the fear of being a bad student. Merely confronting and trying to understand her existence should have been a struggle for Twilight.
2279679
I actually saw Lightning Dust as having better individual flying skills than Rainbow Dash. She was the faster and more skilled pony. Her problem was that her drive to reach that level left her with zero team skills and the Wonderbolts were supposed to be a team.
2279510
Interesting that you point out that RD ought to be the best flyer because of her dedication to being the best after mentioning that Rarity being the best isn't integral to her character. We've seen how hard Rarity works on her craft from Suited for Success to A Dog and Pony Show to Rarity takes Manehatten. She even invented a new fabric. So why is it that Rarity's efforts don't qualify her to be the greatest whereas Rainbow Dash's does?
To answer the last question first, I don't generally expect the heroes to perfectly embody the elements and I find stories where they do often end up being preachy and boring. I think its one of the shows strengths that the manes six can and sometimes do act counter to their elements, that they have personalities which are more complex than just embodying their element, and that each even has flaws which run counter to their element. That said I do each of them is, perhaps not a paragon of virtue, but at least someone who genuinely cares about and is motivated by that virtue (this is probably clearest with Pinkie Pie and how much laughter/joy is the center of her life, but even Rarity has had occasion to show how much generosity means for her and how far she's willing to go for it). Their virtues are an important part of their characters and I think its important for a story to remember that even if that particular virtue isn't the focus of the story. Also I should probably mention that many stories which have them strongly demonstrate their virtues can still work well if the author remembers their personalities beyond just that and does something interesting with the strongly displayed virtue, for example exploring the challenges and drawbacks that come from being unfailingly generous or honest ect. So I don't always mind making them paragons, even though I don't think it's necessary.
Regarding them being the best at their professions, well I don't consider that important as a rule, but I do expect they are at least good at what they do. I mean they all have been training in their respective fields since childhood, they all have natural talents in those field and genuinely love them, so I'd it depends on the story. I don't generally like stories where one of the leads meets some character who has the same profession/talent as they but is better at it. This is partially because its a story I've seen a million times and didn't really enjoy the first time I saw it, partially because the new character usually has little personality outside of just being "like the hero but better" and especially because if we've watching a character work and struggle to perfect their talents its just not fun to see some new character we've never met before walk in and show them up.
Moreover, in action adventure and danger focused stories I want to see the characters succeed through their own merits (mental, physical, and because of their bonds) not because of luck, and not because Celestia or "Destiny" or a villain who's plan requires they win or whoever stacks the deck in their favor, and not just because they are given the auto-win plot devices. (I am aware the show itself often uses auto-win plot devices, but in those episodes the focus is on the characters finding/activating the auto-win plot devices, and it is through their own merits that they are able to do so) Basically I want them to win because they earned it. Sometimes making them the best at what they do, sometimes even beyond what is shown in the show (like allowing Fluttershy to use her animal skills to tame some giant monsters and sic them on the baddies), is the easiest (and perhaps only) way to do that, especially if the fic requires them to face some extremely powerful and competent villains or other large scale threats. The alternative is frequently not fun to read. (for example, if someone is smarter than Twilight and they're a villain you have to come up with a reason why they don't just win, if that character is a good guy than you risk making Twilight look redundant or even useless, I'm not saying this always happens, but it does often enough I'm always wary)
I guess my bottom line is this. I like MLP because I like the mane six and I want to see them doing/accomplishing things. If someone is going to be better than them at what they do that's okay but there needs to be a good reason why, and it needs to be used to tell a good story.
Also, I should note that with some of the mane six a new character out performing them is easier to sell than with others. I could buy for example that a professionally trained animal handler/zookeeper/vet might be better with animals than Fluttershy, who may or may not have any formal training (I don't think the show has ever said). On the other hand, its hard to believe anyone can fly faster than Rainbow Dash given the big deal that's made about her being the only one who can do the sonic rainboom. Similarly, to return to the topic of their virtues briefly, I could buy a pony more generous than Rarity, a great philanthropist or the like, but it would be hard to present a pony kinder than Fluttershy.
So yeah, that's my two cents on the subject.
2286964
I'm going to respond to this and your previous comments as one because that's what this is all about, isn't it?
The Elements of Harmony defeated Ridentem Malleorum: an uncaring, monstrous, alicorn soldier from the Eternal Herd, on their own, with individual talents, with only a slight mental prodding from Lion Court for Rarity.
They defeated the Six Companions: powerful manifestations of the dark side found within each pony, with the Thorns being nothing more than meat shields and distractions. With some incidental help from Terrato, Twilight Sparkle's faith in her friends overcame Clover the Clever's deluded fanaticism in Oceanus in a one-on-one duel of wills.
"Oh, but they only did that because they keep following Black Rose's plan"
How do you disrupt the plan of someone who keeps banking on your victory? Take a dive? Is that what you want? Nyaha, we're going to let Gravitas exterminate all of us. We're not going to move the Throne so Equestria will blow up once it's called back. Fuck you, Black Rose, we win, you lose.
The goal is to protect Equestria. I've been trying to hammer the point in ever since Pyre Valor invited everypony to an outdoor barbecue. When Rainbow saw that her cheap need to prove herself the fastest only brought harm to herself and to others and that she didn't need to be the fastest, only to be fast enough. When Pinkie saw that she didn't need to defeat Sablesteel in head-on combat, she only needed to become strong enough and she could protect her loved ones and make this grouchy, poisonous pegasus happy. And she has grown stronger, and she has earned some of Sable's respect. When Applejack stopped trying to smooth things over with Twilight by avoiding the issue because she needed her friend back and she needed to be honest. When Rarity opted to play Lion Court's sadistic game so she could add to the efforts to help her friends. It's not "beat the bad guy in front of you to win". They've established their goal and achieved it twice already.
It's not about one-uping your rival. Protect Equestria. It's not about embarrassing Black Rose and crushing her plans. Protect Equestria. It's not about doing your own thing versus following orders. Protect Equestria.
"Black Rose can kill them whenever she wants."
She can't kill them. Period. If they die, she loses. Black Rose is stuck in a position where all she can do is to keep pushing others. For all her gambling, her plans, her stolen power, her cunning, and her relentless pursuit to protect her nation, all she can do is prepwork for the showdown with the true enemy. Her inability to trust others without manipulating them prevents her from embodying harmony. She's nothing to Oceanus. Less than a bug scratching at his door. She has no chance whatsoever of beating him. So what's this about her making Twilight and the others redundant? That's an important theme I've tried to work in, that super-speshul spec ops powers can only carry you so far in a fight that needs harmony.
Black Rose's fifteen minutes in the spotlight are almost up. Her best weapons count for nothing, her greatest minions only had minor assists in an Elements of Harmony victory, her big victory over Gravitas served up nothing. But it's still so important that she gets stepped on by Twilight. It's still necessary than she falls on her knees and admits defeat. There still needs to be a scene where she screams "NOOOOO!!! THIS CAN'T BE! I AM INVINC----!" KABOOM. Then Twilight walks away from the explosion without looking at it.
Spoiler alert, you're not going to get that scene. Or any capitulation scene. How many times do I have to write that she's weaponized that confident smile? She's going to smile and speak with confidence as if everything's going to plan, right down to the moment when she has no more plans left. She's going to "lecture" on morality, she'll keep putting ponies off-balance, winning small meaningless victories no matter how badly she's really losing. She's never going to show that she's lost. Even if she's in the shit, she'll act like she's a plan away from winning, because it keeps enemies guessing. That's how she's defiant to the end.That's part of her character and I am not going to break character.
"The Elements of Harmony are still vulnerable."
Because invulnerable protagonists make for a compelling story.
2287224 Ummmmmm, no, that is not what this is all about actually. My reply to this particular blog post wasn't about Upheaval, it was about the topics raised in this specific blog post. Those are my honest feelings about the questions you asked, they are the same responses I would have given to any other person who asked them. I was not trying to sneak in back door complaints about Black Rose (even my comment about villains who's plans require the heroes win wasn't directed at her specifically, that's a trope that annoys me in general) (nor was comment about someone smarter than Twilight possibly making her look "redundant" about Black Rose, that again is a general danger when you introduce a new hero who is better than one of the leads at their specialty, I just used Twilight as an example, it would have been no less true for Rainbow Dash for example). I said everything I wanted to say about her in my post on the fic itself. The comments I made here are, to reiterate, my real feelings on the topics at issue. I have no idea if you're going to believe me when I say that or not, certainly I have no way to prove it, but its the truth.
Regarding Upheaval, I am aware that the mane six have accomplished allot, and I am aware that they and Black Rose have the same goal, and that ultimately protecting equestria is more important than anything between them and her. I get that.
It doesn't change the fact that Black Rose's level of competence strained my suspension of disbelief. It's not because I expect the heroes to be invulnerable (and now that I think about it, that was probably poor word choice on my part). I have no problem with them meeting setbacks or a villain getting the better of them. I just felt Black Rose took it to far. I simply find the idea of a character who only ever gets thrown off her game by the likes of Oceanus to be difficult to swallow. I understand that part of her character is that she always pretends to be in control even when she's losing, but I guess my problem is that there was never a point where I felt as a reader like she was faking. It always seemed to me that she was genuinely in control (again outside of Oceanus)
And as I've stated before, the fact that the mane six constantly have to do what she wants irritates me. That's just a trope I personally dislike, I prefer that the heroes be the authors of their own destiny. I understand it's justified in the story, but I still find it irritating if only because it makes the story very predictable. No I do not expect them to take a dive and doom the world (I said as much in one of my posts on the fic itself). I would have liked to see them save equestria their way, which is to say by doing things they came up with themselves, rather than what Black Rose planed for them to do.
I did assume that eventually the heroes would overcome Black Rose because that's what usually happens to characters like her, and I have no trouble admitting that yes I honestly wanted to see them beat her at her own game cause I frankly dislike Black Rose.
But if that's not going to happen, well so be it. I can live with that. As I said in my initial post I liked the story and I wanted to see where it progressed, and that hasn't changed since then. I complained about Black Rose because I honestly feel her sheer competence is the weak link in Upheaval's chain and I thought it would be better if she was scaled back a bit. But as I said in my initial post, she's not ruining the story, she just annoys me. I'm going to keep reading. I didn't mean my comments as an attack on the entire story and I apologize if they came off that way.
(Looking back over my earlier posts, I wonder if maybe I'm being unfair towards the character, overplaying her competence and understating her setbacks because of my dislike of the character, it wouldn't be the first time I've let my dislike of a character run away with me, so take my complaints with a grain of salt I guess)
And I just want to reiterate, my earlier response to this blogpost was not meant to be about Upheaval or Black Rose, those were my honest thoughts on if the mane six should be paragons of their virtues, and if they should be the best at their professions. I would have said the same to anyone else who asked those questions.
2288252 Personally I think Black Rose is a great Magnificent Bastard, but I do have to agree with you somewhat, she could have used a few more on screen change of plans or a few more set backs that had been dealt with brought to our attention. Your statement of that 'there was never a point where I felt as a reader like she was faking. It always seemed to me that she was genuinely in control (again outside of Oceanus)' is my thoughts on Black Rose exactly, I guess I just liked her more.
As for the Mane6 beating her at her own game, that would either involve them Taking a Third Option on one of her choices (but considering all of her choices to them have been Xanatos Gambits, that would be unlikely to happen), I'd say the perfect time for this opportunity is right now in the story, but what that Third Choice would be I have know idea. The other option would have been having one (or more) of them either going toe to toe with her in the planning arena (I recall Terrato saying that Luna should be the one to go up against Black Rose, but I don't recall it actually going anywhere). And for once in an grand epic war story, Twilight falls squarely into the (semi-)ignorant foot soldier category, rather than a genius general (maybe The Immortal Game soured me on the whole idea). So, the main question is: how does Black Rose have Alicorn+ levels of scheming/planning, while Twilight and Co. are just ignorant mortals, but that's a debate for another thread.