Alicorn immortality, headcanon, and people's attitudes to it · 9:45pm Mar 4th, 2014
I never like when the "is Twilight immortal?" debate comes up. It's happened so many times in this fandom, mostly in the comments section of certain fanfics, and it so often seems like everyone is wrong. Possibly even including me, because I'd be getting involved with a debate without knowing all the facts. Then again, so is EVERYONE ELSE. It's a massive clusterfuck of mostly baseless speculation being thrown up against slightly less or slightly more baseless speculation. So, I'm going to address this right here, and explain why everyone is wrong except for me, because I'm so clever (hurr hurr).
NUMBER ONE - WHY THE "TWILIGHT ISN'T IMMORTAL" CROWD ARE WRONG:
See, on the one hand, you got the people saying that Twilight isn't immortal. That's the boat that I'm in, but it so often seems like people want to say that just because they're too attatched to the old headcanon of Celestia and Luna being unique godlike beings somehow, even though in practical terms, that theory has been dead in the water ever since the season two finale. You can tell this by all the assertions that Cadance is also not immortal, often made by the same people in the same arguments, when that's never been stated at any point. It's just assumed that Celestia and Luna are different and unique somehow, possibly oweing to some super secret power that they have which the other two "lesser" princesses don't.
And I think that they are different from Cadance and Twilight, but come on, guys. Age reduction spells are canon, the sisters are both very magically powerful, and there's really nothing to suggest that they didn't ascend to alicornhood the exact same way that Twilight and Cadance did. So what is with all this posturing that Twilight and Cadance aren't immortal because they're "just" alicorns, while Celestia and Luna supposedly beat the secret bonus boss and reached stage two alicornhood or something? It's rediculous and completely baseless.
I know that Celestia and Luna were always intended by Faust to be unique entities, but I think we've moved past that long ago. I liked the idea of the princesses being the goddesses of ponykind too, but you gotta roll with the times. The princesses, and thus alicorns, stopped being totally unique as soon as Cadance entered the picture, and trying to keep holding them up on a pedestal is pointless when the writers have been taking the stance that they're not really like that for a long time. So if their immortality is an inherent trait of theirs, what in-universe reason is there for Twilight or Cadance to not also have it?
NUMBER TWO - WHY THE "TWILIGHT IS IMMORTAL" CROWD ARE WRONG:
I just said that I actually supported the idea that Twilight isn't immortal, didn't I? It probably reflects badly on me then that I have far more to say about why my side is wrong than why this one is, because all I've got for you guys is Megan McCarthy's Twitter. Have I ever said before that I don't really believe in the "death of the author" concept? Well, I don't. As long as their words aren't contradicted later, I take the writer's word as gospel when they give additional details about a setting. Harry Potter is over now, so when some minor detail that you were curious about is unclarified, you have a choice between turning to fanfiction for answers (in which case it is forever unanswered in canon because fanfiction can never be canon by its very definition), or you can listen to whatever JK Rowling had to say on the subject in interviews, in which case there is now a canon answer unless she one day decides to write an eighth book and contradict herself.
So my reasoning there now being out of the way, Megan's tweet said that Twilight won't outlive her friends, which I chose to interpret as an indication that Twilight isn't actually immortal. Given that immortality is a pretty heavy subject for the show itself to address, I expect that this is all we'll ever hear on the subject, so that's what I go with. Before this tweet, I was also in the camp that Twilight was immortal. But I'm not anymore, because according to the writer, that's not the case. You see how this works? And to continue saying that Twilight is immortal afterwards is to be taking one of two stances: to be ignoring Megan completely (which I feel is unwise, because as I stated, I think her word on the matter is the best explanation you're ever going to get) or to be interpreting the tweet to mean that all of Twilight's friends are immortal too, which I don't think is the case.
Except for...
NUMBER THREE - WHY DANNYJ IS WRONG:
Okay, possible spoilers here for the season four finale which may be no more than baseless speculation, but between the alicorn Rarity model that appeared in Pinkie Pride as some kind of animation error and a few other factors, there's a possibility that the season finale this time around is going to see the rest of the main six all becoming alicorns as well. For this reason, Twilight's friends ALSO all being immortal is actually a possibility, so I may also be wrong and Twilight might be immortal after all, even taking into account the tweet.
Personally, even if the mass-alicornication were definitely happening though, I wouldn't bet on all of them becoming immortal. Twilight becoming an immortal is said to be depressing because she'd outlive all her friends, but her friends becoming immortal would only be slightly less depressing, because they'd outlive everyone else that they know too, unless we also want to make Granny Smith or Sweetie Bell alicorns. Making all six immortal doesn't solve the problem. It just spreads it out further. If any definitive statement is ever made on the immortality subject, I'd guess it's far more likely that they'd all still be mortal, and Celestia and Luna's longevity would be explained by some kind of unrelated magic. Because even if the writers didn't think about this as much as we all do (which they might not, because bronies analyze the fuck out of everything), they're still human, and I think they'd see the negative implications of stating the characters' immortality just as much as we all have.
But then again, maybe I'm talking out of my ass. I don't know shit about what anyone at Studio B or Hasbro are actually planning to do with the series or its characters, because I'm just some guy on the internet bitching about ponies in a blog post on a fanfiction site. And much as I might pretend to speak with authority on the subject, everything I say is just based on observation and speculation, and I can't make definitive statements about something that doesn't have enough canon evidence for us to decide on one side or another. Do you get it now? YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT YOUR SIDE IS RIGHT EITHER WAY.
AND THAT'S WHY:
NUMBER FOUR - WHY EVERYBODY IS WRONG:
WE DON'T. KNOW. SHIT.
The fact is, like I said, there's not enough evidence to definitely state that either side is right. There's enough evidence for me to lean in favour of the idea that she isn't for now, but even that's kind of shaky. Right now, the question is unanswered, and I feel it will be for a pretty decent length of time. So go out and be creative with whatever headcanon you have in mind. Immortal Twilight, mortal Twilight, it doesn't matter. All fanfiction is just speculative, and since canon hasn't yet really given a definite answer, have fun with your suppositions and theories. It makes for some interesting creations sometimes. Ever heard "Chant of Immortality" by 4everfreebrony?
I don't agree with the immortal Twi theory and didn't like the idea of it even when I did agree with it, but I still love this song.
I just have two stipulations for you all:
1. Stop talking like you know the answer to this question for sure, because you don't, and
2. Base your opinions on the observable facts and come to your own conclusions once you know all the details. Don't be an ignorant mo'fucker, yo.
>mfw I wrote another blog post over 1K in word count.
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The third best-rated story of all of FiMFiction: A Draconequus' Guide to Immortality. Tackles this issue like a boss.
1895791 Funny thing is, Clint Eastwood is in fact immortal, and will outlive all of us.
Also, my headcanon is that Luna and Celestia are alien parasites that mimic the prey they absorb. Over time, they grew empathy, and decided to stay on Equestria, ruling over the ponies. And- holy shit, I should probably write this down.
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It was actually the EqD comments of that exact fic that resulted in this blog post.
I always rolled my eyes at the "she'll outlive her friends SO SAD" guys. Realistically, five of them will die before the last one goes. The last one may as well keep on going. It's not like people/ponies are incapable of coping with things, after all.
One thing I will say is that there actually is an established in show reason why Celestia and Luna are ageless while Twilight and Cadance are probably not: they control the friggin sun and moon. "Princess Twilight" has already shown us what happens when the two big princesses are out of commission. Who knows what would happen if both of them straight up died?
Granted, this still does nothing to prove or disprove the immortality of Twilight but I just wanted to point out that it's not just assumed that Celestia and Luna are different but flat out shown (personally I always took this to mean that Celestia and Luna are the only immortal ones and that Twilight isn't immortal not only because Word of God said so, but because she doesn't control anything as important as the sun or the moon, but wtf do I know).
So THIS is what you've been doing instead of editing my stuff.
But I would be lying if I said that I didn't enjoy reading another super-wacky-but-at-the-same-time-thought-provoking DannyJ blog.
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The unicorn tribe used to do the same thing though, and they don't seem to all be still around. And what about Discord? He could also screw with the sun and moon. Does that mean he's immortal for the same reason? Was the sun all like, "Oh, this dude can also move me about. Guess I better make him live forever too!"? Or if it's because he, for lack of a better word, "controls" chaos, which is somehow just as important, then why wouldn't Cadance and Twilight be immortal for controlling equally nebulous concepts like love or friendship?
Come to that, isn't it a little dark that some undefined higher power is meting out immortality to the alicorns it deems important enough to need it, deciding that Celestia and Luna must live forever because they control the sun and moon, but in this entity's eyes love and friendship aren't really all that important and they can just go die? I know Cadance dying, for example, isn't literally the death of all love, but she's about as synonymous with her sphere as the sisters are to theirs. It's not like Celestia and Luna dying would mean the end of the solar cycle, because Hearth's Warming Eve showed that it predates their existence.
I like your theory and all, but I could personally never go with it. It seems to just raise more questions than it answers. Makes for a great fic idea though. Given a few thousand words to actually answer those questions, you could develop quite the interesting take on Equestrian theology with that. Probably one that makes a lot more sense than the meta clusterfuck that is the Equestrian pantheons of Human's world.
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No. I've not been working on your thing because I learned on short notice that I have to produce several more essays than I thought I had to and also must prepare for a driving test that's, like, tomorrow. This is just a side thing I had to make because the subject was bugging me.
I am just putting a comment in here because I still feel obligated to
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This got nuked ages ago. I think it was Megan that said Twilight would not outlive her friends.
1896106 Why exactly do you bother yourself with this topic
? I mean even I will confess that I was bothered that Twilight was an alicorn as well as thought of the immortality thing with all 4 alicorns, or any other alicorn alike. But now I just learned to accept all of this; if Twilight is a unicorn so be it, if shes an alicorn immortal/mortal so be it. If celestia, Luna, Cadence, and any other alicorn type is mortal/immortal so be it. I mean seriously dont you get tired being involved in all of this, and is it even more frustrating when the annoying questions of "are any of them really immortal or not" starts poping up in your head?
Word of advise you should probably let this run its own course and spare yourself the headache, otherwise it will only get worse.
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That's what I thought too, but apparently people are still managing to argue about it. This blog was prompted by seeing another such argument in progress in the comments of an EqD story page just earlier today. I just get tired of seeing the same bullshit over and over. It's depressing enough to see the debate still hasn't died even all these months later, when by all rights it should have been put to rest when the tweet was first made, but it's worse than that, because even the people who I think are technically right are so for all the wrong reasons. It's the ignorance that gets me, not anyone's position on the debate.
It's like if you traveled back in time and landed in the middle of the dark ages, and you happened across a collective of scholars who believe that the Earth is round. You think you've found some genuinely intelligent people, defiantly using their reason and logic in a world of flat-earthers that would burn them for heresy. And then you find out that they're all high on crack that some other time traveler who they mistook for Jesus gave them, and they only believe that the world is round because he told them so, after which they promptly began snorting ground-up hedgehogs to replicate the high.
I feel like that metaphor might have gotten away from me a bit, but my point is that this whole thing is fucking stupid, and even if I'm only a drop in the ocean, I feel obligated to at least try to put it to rest.
1897034 Yeah I can agree with that
, I mean even if the actual cast comes out with an answer do we actually belive that a lot of bronies are going to go by this answer. It will only make things worse 4 us and anyone else whose annoyed by this whole debate
. I can only fear when that day comes
, I guess people have their opinions. But those opinions are the reasons why these debates get started, and eventually it all turns into one big cluster fuck where no side is winning or lossing
.
I don't know I just get tired of seeing this topic everywhere, all the time it just gets really really annoying
Not to mention people are still not tired over this whole thing I mean come on enough is enough
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Not to mention that those arguments are, as I said, is pointless anyway now for a number of reasons.
1897152 exactly
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There's two ways to read that will still having a normally immortal Twilight.
One is rather depressing. Rocks falls, everypony dies basically.
The other DannyJ outlined in those spoiler-tags above. I personally think that's the one.
OR Twilight is Immortal, in the sense that she won't die of natural causes. She could still be petrified (like Discord was) or even die by foul play.
A lot of people assume 'Immortal' means 'unkillable', but that would be the term 'deathless'. Same thing with Invulnerable, it simply means they can't be harmed, not that they can't grow old or or similarly be taken out by natural forces.
Even assuming that Twilight is immortal, she isn't eternal, and therefore could easily be taken down by non-natural methods.
TL:DR = Immortal means unaging, not undying.
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My feeling about it is, the show is never ever ever going to tell us the answer to this, because it would be such an incredible fucking downer to get to the point where Sweetie Belle is ancient like Granny Smith is now, that whether or not Rarity was immortal or not, the show would simply never show it to us. We're never going to see 100 years into the future, unless they do like a Days of Future Past type story where we see the horrible dystopian future where everything went horribly wrong and the plot is, they have to use the power of friendship to prevent it from happening. And if that's the case, then we can assume that nothing we see in said Days of Future Past future is necessarily canon because the girls will prevent that future from happening.
So if you want to write a fic where Twilight is immortal, the series will never actually contradict you. If you want to write a fic where she is not immortal, again, the series will never actually contradict you. And since the series itself will never tell us, why does it matter except for purposes of writing fic?
Thus in my opinion everyone is right. Twilight is both immortal and not immortal. She is Schroedinger's Alicorn, and Hasbro will never actually open the box and show us what's inside. So write whatever you want! It can't be wrong, because Hasbro will never actually show us, in canon, what happens when all of the Mane 6 ought to be old.
(And why does no one ever angst about poor Spike? Oh, poor poor Twilight, she's immortal and her friends aren't, wouldn't it be better if she died when ponies ordinarily do? And left Spike, a dragon she raised among ponies, without any of the pony friends he grew up with? It's canon that dragons live an enormously long time, isn't it? Even if it's not, the fact that he's still a baby when he has to be like at least thirteen or something indicates a much longer lifespan than a pony. Also fuck Celestia very much, she'll be fine when her best and most successful of her beloved faithful students bites the dust, because it's not like she doesn't have the company of her sister who betrayed her at least once and an asshole draconequus who enjoys being a jerk, surely she doesn't actually need any other friends to go through the centuries with her. I mean seriously, that is our argument for why immortality is bad? Twilight will be sad when her friends die? What about Spike, won't he be sad when Twilight dies?)
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All very true, yes. And although I have seen immortality explored from Celestia's perspective before, Spike is definitely neglected in this area. I think it's just because the matter of Spike's lifespan has been a known factor for a long time. We've known dragons are long-lived since season one, so people already thought about all this and stopped caring ages ago, only to bring it up again when new potentially immortal characters like Cadance and Twilicorn came into the picture. Which I don't think should be the case. Spike's a very interesting character when done well, and I think he's unfairly ignored by a lot of writers looking to explore this theme.
By the way, thank you for the favourite on End of Empires. I've read a number of your own fics before and really love how well you capture Discord's character. That you found merit in my own attempts with him means a lot to me.