On Editing · 1:56pm Feb 22nd, 2014
I was recently informed about a debate going on regarding my decision not to further correct errors (such as typoes) in Fallout: Equestria. The discussion reminded me of a question that I was asked in an interview some time ago:
Is there anything about Fallout: Equestria you'd like to change?
The answer, of course, is yes. There are many things I would love to fix or change if I went back and reworked the story. I wouldn't want to change any plot points, but there are numerous typos and wrong or missing words, particularly in the first few chapters before I had my editing staff. I would replace a lot of uses of "buck". I would reaffirm Littlepip's gender in the first chapter. I would change Deadeyes' name because it is too close to Red Eye. I would seriously cut down on exclamation points in the first third of the story. I would extend the scene with the Steel Ranger vs slaver fight with the crashing Pinkie Pie balloon slightly to actually show the crash, and expand the beginning of the next scene so the transition isn't as awkward. I would make elements like the capitalization of Littlepip (as opposed to LittlePip) and the italicizing of Sky Bandit consistent. I would add in a new segment in the beginning of Chapter 4 so that the transition between chapters wasn't so abrupt, including a mention of how much time had passed and the phrase "The name of the town had apparently been a four-letter word, but the welcoming sign had been written over with so many other four-letter words that I couldn't glean the original."
But I won't make any of those changes. In fact, I won't go back and edit the story at all, nor will I allow others to do so for me. Quite a few people have asked: why?
art by Stormbadger
First, please understand that the story was edited. Admittedly, it was not edited at a professional level, but I did have a group of two semi-professional editors and one-to-four additional proofreaders (depending on chapter) who worked with me. (Granted, I did not get any of these fine people until about the sixth or seventh chapter. The early chapters were proofread only by myself. "You are your own worst proofreader," any writer will tell you. And yes, the story does suffer a little because of it.) Each chapter, they would send me their notes and corrections, I would go over them, and I would implement them as appropriate. I worked this way because I was (and still am) unwilling to had over document editing privileges to anyone else. This was my story -- every word was written by me and every edit was done by me. I felt that was integral to the integrity of the work. And this attitude is part of why I will not hand over the story and let other people edit it without my supervision and final arbitration.
Another is that even the best editors can make mistakes or may try to substitute their own judgement for the author's on matters that are subjective. Most editors have pet peeves, variances in their grammar education, or beliefs in adhering strictly to some rules that are not as hard and fast as they would treat them. The reason an author needs to know the rules of grammar isn't so he or she never breaks them, but so the author knows how to break them.
From Clay Delk (Senior Content Strategist at Volusion), Method & Message series:
The beauty of writing is that nothing is set in stone. There’s no one, true way to write anything. Every rule is fair game. But there’s one big caveat: You have to know a rule before you can break it.
When you knowingly break the rules, it’s style. Breaking rules you don’t know is ignorance.
Three things prevent me from altering Fallout: Equestria.
First, any artist could spend a lifetime continuously trying to perfect a particular piece. I know that a certain self-discipline is required to avoid endless revisions, to call a work "finished" despite its remaining flaws and move on to other works. The work is finished -- I have decided to call it done and I have moved on. I am currently working on other projects, including helping design and playtest the Fallout: Equestria roleplaying game. About a month after finishing the story, I stopped editing it. And, as per the above, even allowing someone else to edit the story would mean editing it myself based on their notes and suggestions.
Second, the story is available in multiple formats from multiple sources, and there is no way I could "fix" them all. I want all new readers to experience the same work and not have to hunt down the "corrected" version.
Finally, and most importantly, Fallout: Equestria is being translated into several other languages, with several of those translations complete. I think it would do a disservice to the people working on those translations to go in and change things now. Likewise, people have already spent a significant amount of time and money on the story as it is. I have a very low opinion of anyone who would allow people to spend a hefty sum of money getting a hardbound copy of his or her fanfic only to then turn around and make a new, better edition. That is a douche move, and I will not be that person.
I know that some of those who complain about the typos and other errors are just looking for a way to attack the story, something to point at so they can deride it and the people who love it. Interesting fact: based on my research, the industry standard for professional editing of a work the size of Fallout: Equestria is approximately $16, 000. So to the whiners, I can only say: I'm sorry if you feel that are entitled to having absolute perfection in everything you are given for free, or if you believe I somehow owe you $16, 000 worth of additional work because I dared create something for you to enjoy. I'm afraid we will just have to agree to disagree. (However, if anyone felt so passionately about seeing the story professionally edited, I would be happy to allow them to pay that sum to a professional editor to have the work done. I would even graciously and generously not require they pay me for my time overseeing the work. 
)
However, I believe that most of the people who voice this question are people who love the story but wish I hadn't made the mistakes that I did. I understand that the enjoyment of a story is marred by stumbling over even the most occasional typo. And in a story the size of Fallout: Equestria, even if the percentage of errors is very minor, there are going to be quite a few. So to those fans, I say: First, thank you for enjoying the story. Second, I'm sorry for the errors that exist; I am only human. I did what I could while writing it to give you the best story that I could, and those who helped me poured long nights into helping. They too, however, are only human. This was a labor of love. Thank you for being able to look past the scattered imperfections. 
Thank you. 
This is the most succinctly wonderful advice I've heard from any writer, professional or otherwise.
It doesn't matter if there are mistakes, what matters is that the story is great and, perhaps even more importantly, that the author worked hard and gave his or her best.
My god, now that you remind me of the first chapter, you have no idea how confusing the gender was.
1861963
So, 16k buckaroos.
An average person has £100 in their wallet usually more, in cash.
I'd have to rob 97 people. Damn.
I remember you saying this before, though I forget where.
1861975 And I don't know. I really like the fact that the character stays almost completely anon until a bit further into the story.
Quick question. I figured you'd be the best to ask.
Where in the name of Celestia's smoking plothole did the gray coat and brown mane thing come from? As far as I can tell, it was never stated. Only thing you ever said about 'Pip was that she was small, a unicorn, and had a cutie mark of a PipBuck.
I'd love to be able to favorite blog posts. This one would be in my list.
1861987
A fan commissioned John Joseco to do this artwork. Considering that Littlepip's palette was never described, John had to come up with something he thought would be appropriate and look good in the picture. He nailed it, and his choice was so perfectly suited to the character that the fandom has chosen that to be the standard coloration for Littlepip.
1861959 Damn you! I was going to quote that as well.
1862013 Oh, wow. I've seen picture plenty of times but I never knew it had so much significance.
Editing is for wussies.
Honestly I got so hocked on the story in the mater bit that I didn't even notice any errors, I just wanted to know what happened next.
There's absolutely no need to edit the story. Typos and different small mistakes only proof that you're a human and even add some soul to the story. And anyway, there's no such thing as perfection. Perfection isn't objective, but an opinion of each and every person. Therefore, every person has a different definition of perfection. Fallout:Equestria is a finished story, and there is no need in further editing or changing it. Just as I said you in my e-mail, I really hope you'll continue writing and we'll see other stories from you. I'm sure they will be no worse (and even better), in case you're afraid of that.
And I agree with Sorren, there's some charm in the fact that you're not sure about Littlepip's gender in the beginning of the story.
I'm worried more about other questions that left unanswered in the end of the story, those I've asked you in the mail, like how did Littlepip survive in SPP tower without food and water, and how would she spend time with Homage suffering from (possible) muscle atrophy (caused from lack of physical activity)?..
Anyway, thanks for your work and keep moving!
But the real question is: would YOU edit all of FoE if some paid you $16,000?
Ya. I had a little trouble with finding out the gender of Littlepip. Seems like everywhere I go, there is confusion between the genders. And besides, i've read so many books in my time, professional editors seem to bland for the liking. I must say that this story being 1600 pages, is the best fan fic i've ever read. Better than most professionally written books too. I've never seen someone with enough patience to write something so long yet keep it interesting while maintaining a great storyline. One thing i've heard said before is that the person who reads lives the lives of many while the man who doesn't lives only his own. I truly felt like I was living a different life in this fic.
1862139
No. I think anyone paying that much should get professional-quality editing for their money. Besides, as mentioned, an author makes the worst proofreader of his or her own work.
1862139 I believe the only acceptable answer is "Oh hell yes." (Then I could fix all those typos that I step on like a Lego in the dark.
)
Where did you find out the going rate for proofreading, if I may ask?
This sounds like you weren't using GDocs comment feature, which is a crime since it's so great for having multiple people add corrections in-line and discuss them while leaving the job of actually changing the text to you.
Anyway, I do think that a typo/spelling pass should have been done before calling it complete, but I can see that the time for that would have been before all the things you mentioned were set in motion.
Kkat you already did more than many by giving us this world to play in. You don't owe us a cent yet alone $16,000. We love the work small mistakes and all. I for one know it's what cemented me in the FoE community. I also know that it's the first time in a long time I went out of my way to read something whenever I could. I didn't even do that with Hitchhikers or Kingdom Keepers. Hell I stopped reading Kingdom Keepers Shell Game (the newest one at the time) because I'd gotten to the Twilight Society and I wanted to know what happened.
Kkat you've already made a masterpiece and we all know what happens when someone tries to fix a masterpiece.
static.neatorama.com/images/2012-06/restoration-fresco-gone-wrong.jpg
Wow K; that was very informitive I never actually realized just how much went in to the story, but now I have a much greater appriciation for it. Mistakes or not you have created somthing that is going to go down in history as one of the greatest pieces of literature in the fandom. Sure I could nit-pick it and point out glareing flaws; but the story overshadows those in just the sheer imersion factor. Not to mention you created an almost sandbox world that though occupied and already has an awsome story; people can add to it and yet the story stays the same. Where as with a story like Past Sins that can not be done; not saying anything bad about Pen Stroke, just saying the story has a definitive ending and middle where as FOE has many rabbit holes one can jump in to and go off of the original without making it seem forced. KKAT you truly are a Light Bringer and I hope to see more of that light soon.
That was one issue I had with the story initially. Just a minor nit-pick if you will -- regarding LP's look. I pictured her look that way simply because it was in the few pieces of the fan-art I had seen prior to my first reading.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just look at what happened to Star Wars re-relases and edits.
well i could see maybe spelling errors being OK to edit if pointed out too you., but grammar is OK to leave, its fine, i read it and loved it nonetheless, also very few spelling mistakes too.
1862013
So before JJ gave Pip her 'canon' coloring, did you have a different idea for how she looked, or was it meant to stay ambiguous throughout the story?
This is such an excellent blog entry. My friend is an aspiring writer and I'll be passing this along to him. Thank you for everything Kkat!
Well, FO:E is the only fic, in which I'm able to read about 60k words a day and I still want more, even if it's 3 AM... (I'm usually a rather lazy reader with attention span of a goldfish. Really, it's easier for me to focus on writing than on reading). Props for that
1862942
Wow, so true for me too!
I should probably step in and say that knowingly breaking the rules because you know them isn't always style. A good majority of the time, it is arrogance and laziness. Grammar is here to make things understandable, and breaking it can hurt that understandability. For instance, the Oxford Comma was originally not used because newspapers needed the space. That isn't style at all, and taking that comma out is not satisfactory at all. So, no, I don't entirely agree with the idea of an author knowing the rules simply so they know how to break them. Grammar doesn't work like that most of the time.
Another thing is that you say even the best editors make mistakes. I found this to be a weak excuse. Everyone makes mistakes, but some make less than others. You can't shoot for perfection all the time.
And another is how you seem to think that editors make subjective changes. I don't really think I can entirely disagree with you there. I have been editing for an entire year now, and I have overcome being subjective a long time ago. I simply say what is wrong and move on. If you think it is subjective, then I'll prove it is not. I let the writer write the story.
And finally: pet peeves. I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Everyone has pet peeves, but what makes them different for editors? I hate it when people make comma errors, but that does not make it any less incorrect.
And one more thing. Why would you try to get it professionally edited? That is entirely unnecessary. There are many fantastic editors out there that have a massive knowledge of writing and grammar. Try not to step outside the bounds of the story here.
I understand your reasoning, but I don't entirely agree with it. I think there's no reason not to fix typos, add in missing words, and make formatting consistent. None of those things alter the actual content of the story. I would liken it to taking a painting out of a battered old frame and putting it in a shiny new one.
I actually kind of find the errors charming. It's like taking a journey with you as your writing skills improve from practice. There's something very nice about seeing how far you can go starting with a good idea, even if your writing style is initially nothing special.
That said, the beginning of chapter 4 confused me terribly the first time around, and I totally agree that that would be worth fixing if you were going to fix things.
1863195 If you're breaking the rules at the wrong time, you clearly don't know them as well as you think you do.
(This is the part where you accuse me of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, I presume.)
The point was not that errors are okay; the point was that the occasional error should not be taken as proof that no editing at all was performed, because even the best editor will sometimes miss things.
I would contend that a purely objective editor is not a very useful editor. Mistakes in spelling and grammar are good to correct, and have a clear right and wrong, but they're seldom more than a small speed-bump to the reader. The stuff you really want corrected is more complex. It's style and pacing and things like that. Look at this list:
This is a list of things Kkat would change about the story, despite none of them violating any solid rules. There are no solid rules for these things. And sure, an editor could in theory gather a large focus group and observe their reactions, and thus produce a list of things that are statistically likely to need fixing, but I doubt anybody would actually do that. Thus an editor must extrapolate from a sample of one, and while a good editor is presumably good at extrapolating, everybody makes mistakes, especially when data is in such short supply. The only way to keep subjectivity definitively out of your editing is to restrict yourself to only the most trivial parts of the job.
I hate it when people casually use leather in pony fanfiction. That doesn't mean I only get annoyed at people who threw it in without a thought for what leather actually is.
And the professional editing was brought up in the context of people deriding the story for being less smoothly edited than a published work of a professional author. That's why it's relevant. The $16,000 was just a rhetorical device to point out how much effort it is to thoroughly edit a story that's over six hundred thousand words.
This story CONSUMED my life for almost 2 entire weeks. It was the story that pulled me into Fanfics where I previously disdained them. I don't know what to say besides...
Bravo Kkat, Bravo.
- A Simple Extra
Hmm.
Whilst I can understand not making significant changes after it's been so thoroughly disseminated, spelling erors and the like shouldn't be a problem - it's not going to alter the story, simply improve the experience.
And as for maintainnig control of your work - I heartily approve.
That said -
The only time I can think of when strict adherance to grammatical laws may not be entirely necessary, is when describing temporally discontinuous events. Even then, internal consistency, as in using language in a similar way for similar situations, is expected.
Oh Kkat, please. As if some grammatical errors could somehow undermine a work like this.
No one expects it to be perfect, and those who do have already missed the entire purpose of using this site or reading your story. I, personally, didn't walk away from your tale muttering to myself "Oh! The errors! It was UNBEARABLE!"
I just said, "Wow."
Keep on rockin', Kkat.
1863399 And how would she do this in a wa that changed every, single version of the story out there? PLUS the books that have already been made and bought? She won't do it, because it could be a slap in the face to the people that spend money on a physical copy of the book, to now have their "Correct" edition that isn't the same as the one they have. It's gone to far, spread to much to actually BE changed at his point.
But, Yeah, seeing as how I'm one of the ones that kind of got this blog post made...heh... agree with it completely. The whole thing started over me and, the type of person Kkat's talking about that are pretty much just using the typos etc.. as a petty thing to attack the story over, arguing about how much it matters other story as a whole
To me, there is a huge, complete difference between the writing, and the storytelling. And it's the story that matters. So long as the writing does not interfere with being able to tell what is going on in the story, I really don't care about it. it's the story that matters.
If you don't mind, I'm going to respond to your TV Tropes post here, because I don't want to risk reigniting the debate over there.
I never really had a problem with the fact that you didn't want to go back and edit your story. Most of my posts there were just arguing with Seraph about whether errors are part of the story or separate from it.
I absolutely agree that it would be a horrible idea to edit FO:E now, because printed copies have already been made and people have spent ~$100 per set of them. However, if I remember correctly, the printing project had volunteers that were happy to make simple corrections to obvious mistakes, and were already part of the way through the book before you told them to change all of it back. While I, admittedly, almost certainly wouldn't have bought the printed books anyway because of the price, learning that the print wouldn't correct any spelling and grammar mistakes whatsoever was what turned me off from even considering them.
At that time, there were only a few versions of FO:E out there (Google Docs, Pony Fiction Archive, and a PDF, I think). Translations wouldn't be affected, as every language has its own spelling and grammar, so any edit that doesn't affect the meaning of the sentence is fine. Volunteers were (apparently) already working through the book, so all you'd have to do is approve edits. So yeah, I'm still confused why you didn't want any edits made to the hundreds of expensive printed copies, and so far nothing you've said has really explained it to me.
1864004
As mentioned above, I am not willing to allow volunteers to make changes to the story without my complete oversight and approval. That would, in turn, require me to actively be engaged in another edit of the story. At the time, there were two very strong reasons why I was unwilling to do this. First is the first reason in the blog above. The second is that becoming involved in an editing project for the printing group would make me involved in the printing of the hardcover, and I believed it wise to be able to claim complete disassociation from the project as an extra layer of legal security.
1864048 Ah, yes, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.
(By the way, for future reference, Google Docs's "Comments" feature makes it really easy for editors to make changes without it affecting the main doc until the author approves.)
1864072
Thanks.
Most of our editing sessions were performed over IRC. I liked to get as much "face time" with my awesome staff as possible. However, since my editors and proofreaders lived in drastically different timezones, these online proofreading sessions tended to take 8-12 hours, and it was often necessary for them to write up their list of proposed corrections and changes and leave them in a private message window.
1863933 Well, look at it this way. It doesn't matter if some people read this version in the future, because it's what they'd be doing anyway. They don't lose anything by reading the current version instead of the updated version. The people who read the updated version would just be less taken out of the story by minor errors.
Consider that Fallout: Equestria was inspired in large part by Fallout 3, a Bethesda game. Consider that beyond almost any other factor, Bethesda games are known for their bugs. Consider the minor grammatical and stylistic errors an homage.
Bad joking aside, I agree with your reasoning on all points. I will add that when I read FO:E, I do not view it as much as a novel, as as a story being told to me (an opinion solidified when I found out you run games - good GMs are always the best storytellers). This leads to different expectations - errors, inconsistencies, and awkwardness are far less distracting. I'll compare it to reading a translated book of epic poetry, like the Mahabharata or the Kalevala.
1864091 but then you get into issues of people arguing over which is the 'true' version, and as Kkat said, it's disrespectful to those that spent over 100$ on a printed copy that had the errors. To then go and make a 'corrected' version. At this point, there is no reason, and quite a few reasons not to, go back and change things to something this big.
I can understand how you feel. I was working fanfiction too and the first was so bad that took it down and rework on it. And it was a pain to find a beta-reader but when I did find one it turn out for the best. I'm only up to chapter 9 I think in Fallout Equestria and I did find a couple of mistakes but I follow the story fine.
1864107 There would be no arguments over the true version if no changes were made to the actual content. And I could argue that it's disrespectful to everyone to intentionally leave typos uncorrected. In any case, the next time I read FO:E, I'm going to be making my own personal fixed version. It's one of the most immersive stories I've ever read, and that immersion is broken whenever I encounter what amount to transcription errors.
1864264
Keep in mind, Fallout: Equestria is not only finished, but has been finished for over two years.
I would agree that refusal to correct typos and other errors while the story is being worked on would show a lack of caring or respect by the author. This is why I had a sizable staff of people helping me edit and make corrections, and why I continued to do so for a month after the last chapter was put online. However, refusing to allow an author to call a work finished is disrespectful to the author. Telling an author that they have to make the work perfect or they are being disrespectful to their fans strikes me as nothing but manipulative and entitled behavior.
Fans are, of course, free to make your own edits for your personal copy, so long as you do not distribute that copy elsewhere.
1864458 I don't think it's actually disrespectful, but I do think the argument that can be made is about as strong as the argument that changes would be disrespectful to people who bought a physical copy. Sorry, I realize I didn't make that clear in my previous comment.
1863195
Not all breaking of grammar is style, that is true. But understanding grammar is necessary to understand when it is, and to do so correctly.
The statement about pet peeves, mistakes and subjective judgements is in no way meant to suggest editors are bad. Editors are human. Rather, these are the reasons why I would not be willing to hand the story off for someone to make edits that would go out to the public without my approval and micromanagement.
1864509
Ah, I understand. This is just my stance, and an author could make an equally valid argument to chose to do the opposite. (For example, if Pen Stroke chose to do another pass at his magnum opus Past Sins at this time, his decision would be just as justified as my choice not to further revise my own. I would disagree with any assertion that I have a right to demand he do so, but I absolutely agree that he would have both right and valid reason to choose to do so.) Thank you for clarifying that.
Normally I'd be annoyed at people using my artwork without permission, but, since I haven't been around recently to say yes or no, it's a Source Filmmaker picture (not as much attachment to it), you have credited me fully, and you're the writer of the fanfiction in which these characters appear, no problems!
As for editing your own stories. I will admit, as much as I fanboy over Fo:E, I have noticed the occasional fault or other little thing I'd do differently. Can't remember what they are, since I tend to focus on the good and not the bad, but I'm sure if I decided to go reading the story, looking for that sort of thing, I might find one or two. The fact I can't remember any of them is testament to the writing itself and how engaging it is.
Now that I read this I know for certain that there will be no canon sequel. Not that it even needed one in the first place! But will you ever write any other Fallout Equestria fiction? I mean, you created the universe and could esaily create anything you wanted and fans would probably accept it as canon by default. Actually I think I just answered my own question there. That is the reason why not. But still, it would be very cool to see more work, and I am pretty sure Fallout: Equestria made me cry at some point. Not sure where though.
1864908
Thank you! I love the picture.
1864996
Check out my blog on "The Ones That Stick With Me".