Beyond Ponies · 6:07am Jan 11th, 2014
Yesterday I went to a meeting of a local writing group. I’ve been before; I already know I can find more useful criticism here. I just wanted to socialize.
They asked me what I was writing, and I hemmed and hawed, and said, “I’ll get back to you on that.”
I spend so much time on fimfiction because I’ve learned so much and met so many talented, hard-working, and helpful people here. I’m proud to be a part of it. I imagine sometimes that this is what Paris in the 1920s felt like, when half of the future great writers of the Western world were gathered together in a single city. (Hey, I can pretend.) Yet when I meet other writers in other places, I pretend to be a newbie who’s written nothing rather than endure that special scorn reserved for fan-fiction writers.
I want to change that.
I’ve tried to get outsiders to read some of our best stories, but something about pony makes their brains seize up faster than a Mazda RX-8. My friends won’t read my stories, let alone those I recommend. I told an editor I know at Tor that I could introduce him to great new unpublished writers. I sent him links to stories by four authors. He never read them.
I kept thinking that we need one book of great non-pony stories by pony writers. One book that people who are just a little curious about fan-fiction can read, even if they’re hoping only for something to ridicule. I tried to get the Tor editor interested in producing an anthology, but he was afraid of legal problems. He seemed to think that anything we wrote would necessarily infringe on something, as if we were incapable of anything original.
Then I thought: Why not do it myself? Choose some non-pony stories from pony writers, get non-pony art for them from pony artists, put them in an e-book, publish it on Amazon for about $5, and advertise it on fanfiction sites and on the authors' blogs.
Then I put it off for a year.
No more putting it off. The pony train isn’t going to last forever. When it finally stalls out or runs off the rails, I don’t want that to be the end. I hope all of us who’ve worked so hard here can transition to a post-pony world. I understand as well as anyone how comfortable it is once you’ve settled in here, but it’s a temporary refuge. Like Paris in the 1920s.
So I want to do this anthology. I want to gather at least a dozen great stories by ponyfic or fan-fiction authors, bundle them into a book, market it, advertise it, and sell it. And I want the authors to make real money doing so, even if it isn’t very much, so they experience that “I got a check for my writing!” feeling. If we advertise it on fimfiction, we should sell at least a couple of thousand copies, I’d think.
But I want people outside fandom to read it. I want a write-up in Wired Magazine saying the future of fiction is online and these are the people who will write it. I want reviews on goodreads and Amazon, and a piece in The New Inquiry that uses the words “ponies” and “decontextualizing” in the same sentence.
If it sells enough, well, we could do it again. Even start a small publishing house. Publish original novels online. Bypass the mad world of traditional print publishing entirely.
But first, I need stories.
Some big questions you can help answer are:
- Will it be just ponyfic authors, or authors of any kind of fan-fiction? I’m open to all, but I don’t know how to find good authors from other fandoms. It would be probably end up with 15 ponyfic authors and 2 from all other fandoms, which would be silly. Do any of you know how to find the best authors in other fandoms?
- Should it be a themed anthology? If themed, what might the theme be, and should I pick it before or after choosing some stories?
- What kind of stories would not be accepted? “Pornography”, but how about other explicit stories?
- Should it be open to everybody, or by invitation only?
On the last point, if I’m going to read all the submitted stories, there are three key factors:
A. I can only read so many stories, but
B. I don’t want to spend an entire day sending PMs to each author I want to invite, and
C. I don’t know if anybody will actually submit anything for it.
So my policy at present is this: I am open to submissions from anyone who:
- has published a story on EQD, or
- has over 1000 watchers, or
- has published a story in a market that paid at least 3 cents a word, or
- has won a gold, silver, or bronze in one of RogerDodger's fic write-offs, or
- has a story in the Vault or the Royal Canterlot Archives, or
- has been reviewed by Seattle's Angels, or
- has gotten 3 or more stars from Chris (though I think that implies being on EQD), or
- has gotten a "Highly Recommended" from PresentPerfect, or
- has had a story read by Scribbler, or
- has been invited to submit by me, or
- I am following
I will sort unread submitted stories according to what I know about their authors, acknowledge receipt, and read them when I’m able to read them. That might mean I read a device heretic story when it comes in even though there are already others ahead of it, or even that I never read some of the stories, if there are a lot. Sorry. If I get a lot of stories, I’ll ask others to help screen them. For money, or a percentage.
I’ll give fair warning:
- I want these to be great stories. Stories that people will want to write review columns about, and not in a “Dog rides bicycle” way. “Good enough for Equestria Daily” is not what I’m aiming for. No slight on EQD, but they publish a story or two every day. Hell, they even published one of mine today. I don’t want one-a-day stories. I want one-a-week stories. That said, “good enough for Equestria Daily” does mean “good enough to submit”.
- I plan to be a bastard activist editor, the kind who might send things back and ask for changes, like John Campbell in the 1940s. Worse than EQD in 2013.
I will start accepting submissions immediately. I may later announce here and on the google forum (below) that I’ve chosen a genre or theme based on what’s been submitted so far. I'll keep accepting stories until I have enough great stories, or I give up (in which case I'll try to pass everything off to someone else if that makes sense). I expect this will take at least six months. A year would be better, but interest in fan-fiction is already cresting.
Seriously, I need help thinking of a themed anthology that could work. I don't think a genre is a good idea; the purpose is to show that we have good authors, not good hard SF authors or good epic fantasy authors. And part of my pitch to literary people is that fan-fiction defies genres. A theme that's broad enough to encompass a wide variety of genres would be best.
To submit something,
1. Join the Google forum beyond-ponies-forum. You can do that right now, without submitting anything.
2. Write a non-pony, non-copyright-infringing, non-pornographic story or poem in Google docs that is under 25,000 words.
3. “Share” the doc and set it to “Anyone with the link can comment”, because I eventually want the authors of accepted stories to critique each others’ stories.
4. Email a message with the following to [url=mailto:beyond-ponies-inbox@googlegroups.com]beyond-ponies-inbox@googlegroups.com and [url=mailto:badhorse43@gmail.combadhorse43@gmail.com:
- Mail it from an email address that I can reply to & can share with others
- Your fimfic username and a link to your user page
- Mention whether you've got a story on EQD, in the Vault, in the Royal Canterlot Archives, etc.
- A short description of the story
- The link to your doc
You can put “Copyright <your name>, 2014” on the doc if you want. That isn’t done in the Real World, but I don’t mind. Sending material to me is not selling it. That requires you to sign a contract. You can submit a synopsis instead of a story and get feedback, but "Trixie and Twilight get lost in the Everfree and have to learn to cooperate" is not a synopsis. A synopsis for a 20,000-word story should be at least 1000 words. (I'm making that number up, because in the Real World you don't write a synopsis for a short story.)
Please don't think, "That means I have a year to submit a story." It doesn't, because (A) I need these to start coming in now, and (B) to write one non-pony story that I think is great, you'll probably have to write several non-pony stories, and you won't be able to predict which one I'll think is great. The downside for you of writing non-pony is that if I don't accept it, you can't submit it to EQD. But on the bright side, you can submit it anywhere else!
There are also questions about legal matters, anonymity, and how to define, divide up, and distribute profits, which I’ll address in a separate post if stories start coming in. I’m thinking no up-front payments, with profits split up 20-25% for reading, choosing, & editing stories, commissioning & selecting art, & formatting; 5-10% for marketing and promotion write-ups outside fimfiction and personal blogs; 40% for writers; and 30% for artists. If we use Amazon, authors can use Amazon affiliate links and get an additional commission on copies bought through their blogs. Legal crap (incorporating, filing 1099 forms, writing contracts, sending checks, figuring out how to pay people outside America) and advertising will count as expenses before profits, and I expect to front that money myself.
Simultaneous submissions are okay, but say so if you’re doing so, and email [url=mailto:beyond-ponies-inbox@googlegroups.com]beyond-ponies-inbox@googlegroups.com immediately if you sell a submitted story somewhere else. Previously-published stories will be at a disadvantage. Most likely I’ll want to purchase first world electronic rights, and I can’t do that if you’ve already published it electronically. And your ability to promote your story to your followers is useless if you’ve already given them a free online copy. But such stories aren't out of the question. A great pony story that can be re-worked to not have pony is also not out of the question, but I want the book to be mostly new material.
We could make an anthology that was entirely pony stories with the pony removed, but then bronies wouldn't buy it, and I'd have to shop it around to print publishers. I could do that. If you're willing to take the time to rewrite, I'm willing to look at it.
I feel like an ass for posting two grandiose schemes in two days. This is the one that’s more important to me. I need stories from you folks to make it happen.
Good luck! I look forward to reading the winning entries
Nothing wrong with grandiose schemes, Mr. Horse. Nothing wrong at all.
If I fit either of the criteria, I'd be inspired to submit something myself. (It wouldn't make the cut, but I'd be inspired to submit all the same.)
Why not limit it to just stories about public domain characters? It'll be like Dangerous Visions, but for fanfiction.
I would like to help in anyway I can.
Sadly, I don't meet any of your criteria. I fully intend on trying to bridge the gap from fanfiction to original fiction. I want to write good hard sci-fi and ghost stories. Maybe even at the same time.
For now though, I will write good fanfiction. Or at least try to.
This is such a brilliant idea. I guarantee I will buy at least one copy if and when this becomes available.
Here's to hoping this'll be a successful endeavour.
Well, the most obvious possible theme would be friendship, given the origin of the people in question.
Another possibility, given your goal is to emphasize that the future of fiction is online, is communication.
As far as the rest of it goes...
Ask? Find the biggest fandoms and ask the people there who the most important fanfiction writers are.
Though honestly, I think making it all pony fiction writers would be interesting, as pony fiction is only one fragment of the greater fanfiction community; being able to find 15 good stories just from pony fiction writers would be pretty impressive in its own way, I think. Plus it is far easier.
Why would someone involved want to be anonymous?
1705110
Cute as that idea is (and it is a cute idea), I'm not sure if it is really the best approach, given the goal is to show that fanfiction writers are good writers who happen to write a bunch of fanfiction.
huh. I'll be keeping my eye on this. If any great ideas pop into my head that would work especially well as non pony fic, I just my try it. Best of luck sir!
I'm liking this idea.
Last March, you said I should remove all the copyrighted material from Biblical Monsters and try to sell it. I agreed, but never got around to it.
All I would need to do is re-write that story, replacing Twi with an original creature. But this begs the question: does publication on this site make it a "previously-published story"?
1705229 Good point. That's a great story that would help impress people outside fandom. It would be one slot in the book that wouldn't help sell it within fandom, but since it's an e-book, there's no cost to add more stories. I think it should find a place, if it really works without pony. I have a couple other stories in mind that are in the same position.
Grandiose schemes are what make the world go 'round. Well, that and inertia.
For what it's worth I think this is something worth doing. Worth doing if it succeeds, naturally, but also worth doing if it fails.
I'd be glad to participate, naturally[1], provided some form of anonymity could be maintained. Getting some of the (eventual) profits would be nice, but not strictly speaking necessary.
Will my story be agreeable, suitably edited? I mean, I can try and write something else, perhaps something lengthier, but I can't guarantee that I'll make it in time.
[1] I fulfill a couple of the entrance requirements, I think.
Do you have a rough timetable for any steps in the process of putting this together? Due dates for submissions, spitballed publication date, etc.?
This sounds like:
A fun idea, and I've definitely got something I'd like to submit. It's a story that got accepted for a small-press SF anthology a couple years ago, but the publisher went out of business before the book was ever printed. I'll give the thing a read-through tomorrow, see what polishing it needs--'cause stories always need polishing--then set it up as a Google Doc and all per your instructions.
Mike
1705279 I was adding that part to the post while you were reading. I think the thing should be published by early 2015 at the latest, or it will risk being passe. I doubt I can get enough good stories in less than six months. But I didn't want to say that, because then everypony will say, "Oh, I've got a year to send in a story!" and nothing will happen.
There are two very different possible approaches:
A) Get new original fiction as described, so fimfiction readers will buy the anthology.
B) Ask authors to rework pony stories into non-pony stories, and shop the resulting anthology around to print publishers. Anthologies aren't usually sold that way--editors buy stories up-front, meaning they must have a budget before they begin soliciting stories, meaning the anthology must be green-lit by a publisher before soliciting stories. But I don't think I can go to a publisher through the traditional route and say, "Hi, you don't know me, but I'd like to edit an anthology for you."
1705299
I can work with either option, though the first one would probably require that I delay a few projects I intend to publish here. Then again, it's not like a slow rate of production would be anything new to my followers. Either way, it looks like I've got plenty of time to decide.
1705240
Well, I guess I have to add "Adapt story" to my to-do list. Right now, I'm actually working on some supplementary material for that same story, but I'll get on this as soon as that's done.
That's a great idea.
Yes. Start with what you know. Also, I'm not sure any other fandom can produce fics like Biblical Monsters or The Arbitrage of Moments. And if such stories do exist, they're difficult to find among FanFiction.net's crappy fics and horrible design.
No. It should reflect the breadth of themes and genres in this fandom. Apart from quality, I would ask only that every fic make the reader think.
This anthology is for a general audience. No erotica, minimal violence, and no real-world politics!
I don't think you have the resources to evaluate more than, say, 100 fics in a timely manner. A better strategy would be to seek out authors whom you know to be good and ask them to participate in this
schemeexperimentglorious undertaking.I would talk to CiG, Jeff, Ben, SS&E, Obs, and Cyne.
1705240
The Writing On The Wall?
The Cough?
1705266
Everyone will be wondering why Pratchett is writing for an anthology under a psuedonym.
1705353
The Cough would be very easy to adapt (unponify?).
I'd say stick to ponyfic. We have plenty of high-quality people here, and with a timetable like you're suggesting, I have little doubt you can find enough stuff with just us. If you don't need to go elsewhere, I'd say don't try. Other fandoms can put their own houses in order.
After reading "Torn Apart and Devoured by Lions", I find myself thinking that a themed compilation might be the best option. Any anthology whose primary hook is "a bunch of fanfiction writers wrote this" is going to be unnecessarily handicapped, for basically the reasons you've mentioned here and elsewhere. People already don't read fanfiction. Fanfiction already has a bad name. If you tell people to read a pile of original fiction by fanfic authors, you're not going to gain a whole lot of traction over just telling them to read fanfic, I expect.
On the other hand, if you tell them, "Here are a bunch of original stories written to this interesting prompt, and hey, they're all by fanfiction authors", you're basically sneaking it in. You're selling the thing on quality of ideas, rather than novelty of who you collected stories from. It becomes marketable in a few different ways.
Obviously, running it that way would reduce the ease of submission for a lot of people. You'd be soliciting new stories, basically, instead of allowing for the reworking or publication of things already on the books.
As for particular themes, my immediate reaction is to do some sort of "write to a prompt", but I've just woken myself up for the purposes of responding to this, and I'm not necessarily thinking straight. I might have better ideas on the subject at a later date, or even hour.
I'd say anything that people would have a decent probability of looking at and discounting as stereotypically fanfiction-ish, or anything that's likely to put the fandom in a bad light. Those are pretty subjective criteria, but since the entire idea seems to be to publish a product that shows fanfiction authors should be taken seriously, pains should be taken to ensure that the collection doesn't run afoul of negative fanfiction stereotypes. I probably know less about what those stereotypes are than you or other authors would, though, so I'll leave it in subjective terms.
Those are bold words and absitavely strong moves, Mr. Horse. It's a start, and boy howdy, it looks like you're going to get shit done.
You're trying to change this damn world... sway the minds of the hard headed... make your legacy. Hell, make brony legacy, showing the togetherness and talent of this fandom to those who gawk and scorn. It's damn admirable, eh?
I don't really have any way to help. I can give you words of encouragement and spread the news to people I know. That's about it. I would offer to throw money your way, but I'm pretty sure that defeats the purpose of this. Unless it doesn't...
I'll be cheering you on your journey, Mr. Horse.
fc00.deviantart.net/fs8/i/2005/326/9/9/Sad_Goth_Cheerleader_Rag_Doll_by_jazzy1453.jpg
Good luck on your endeavor. I'd submit some original fiction of my own to your work, but sadly I don't meet any of your requirements.
I'll start with the easiest one. How do I get Seattle's Angels to review one of my stories? Just ask nicely?
It doesn't seem like I have any skills that will be of any use for your endeavor, but I'll be supporting it all the way. Have you pitched it to Wanderer D yet? I imagine he'd be the best person to ask if you wanted to get a site post on it. I'd also throw it in the Fimfiction Editorial suggestions, but I don't know if it meets the criteria.
Colour me intrigued
Interestingly enough, I have successfully and stealthily released "Sun Princess" as a non-Pony story with no edits whatsoever; but I understand this is not ideal.
Will keep tabs, but I don't want my brain to Go There yet until you've decided whether or not this is going to be a theme anthology.
Way to dream big, good luck. Also as a suggestion, what about doing something like Alfred Hitchcock's Mystery Magazine, or Sci Fi Monthly just to test the waters?
I've had a story reviewed by Seattle's Angels, so I think I fit the criteria in the barest possible sense, which is nothing new.
I'd be glad to submit some original work. So this is going to be a theme anthology? I can work with that. This is going to be interesting, if you can pull it off.
Well, color me intrigued.
I don't qualify for contributing to this project, but I do look forward to seeing what comes of it.
Also, don't feel bad about the consecutive grandiose schemes. Having big ideas is nothing to be ashamed of.
Ooh, seems interesting. I'd be glad to join in.
All I know is I already have a story that's a ponification of an original fiction idea. It would be easy to un-ponify, I think, but I can't help feeling it would also lose something in the process, which is odd. You know I'm up for this anyway.
1705704
Whoa, you sneaky.
As emailed (before I saw you made this a post)
Bad Horse, have you read MY original novels? I tried to get a ponychan thread going to serve the needs of pony novelists. I got bupkis for response, and I let it drop.
I don't know that many other pony authors who have written both original novels (plural: two about as innocuous as Xanth, one sci-fi soap opera, one-and-a-half sci-fi grimdark and frankly sexual) and pony novels (five, every one recontextualizing clop while grounding every important story development in it)
Here's what I see. If you want to start a publishing house you should be talking to the furry publishers Sofawolf and Furplanet. I edited for Furplanet but sadly did not think to edit my credit, and they both didn't pay me and got my name wrong. Small publishing is not exactly a glamorous niche, nor a capable one on the whole.
What Sofawolf has shown is that fandoms can support roughly ONE celeb writer and the publishing houses that service him. That's Kyell Gold, of course, and more power to him for defining furry writing for a generation: he's even got the curious attention of Penny Arcade, and might in some way have motivated Jerry Holkins to try and write a book himself (I'd flip a coin as to that outcome…)
You're going to need a writer who can turn out numerous whole books meeting the desires of a fandom OR a set of writers all of whom can be lumped together to deliver the same type of experience, AND the audience who is seeking that experience AND the context in which that audience can both find the work and buy it and celebrate their fandom of that stuff.
Honestly, I think you might as well look to pony fandom, as look the 'real world', for your context. If you get a fandom to blow up Amazon.com buying ebooks you'll register on their charts and pull in the outside attention you seek. Pony fandom is already drawing more to Bronycon than Anthrocon gets, and furry fandom supports more than one small publisher.
You'd have to self-identify as 'publishing house promoting original work that is INFORMED by MLP' meaning that you might have to set an editorial tone and define for yourself what you think MLP:FIM means in terms of storytelling. What's original about it that wasn't present before? Look to Joss Whedon and 'Buffy' for hints there: look to MLP juxtaposed with modern media culture. Even look to explanations of 'rape culture' as a contrast to what you see in MLP's storytelling, and then define your publishing house around those lessons. The Bechdel Test is another clue there, I think.
I'd work with you, though I don't know you well enough to be really confident about it. I'm curious if you've run businesses and/or fandom vendor tables for dealing stuff at cons (sort of training wheels for what we're talking about)
I do know this: if you made this happen, a lot of pony writers would be excited by it, and it might well be worth cons such as Bronycon making room for you. It's asking a lot to make space for 'publishing house NOT devoted to pony fiction but rather original fiction' at a pony convention. Hence, you gotta find an identity that welds you to the pony fandom in other ways, and demand that the real world deal with it on your terms.
Nobody's especially interested in another publishing house otherwise… unless there's an audacious angle to it.
1705229
I was going to come find you and tell you to submit The Writing on the Wall... I really need to read Biblical Monsters.
Bad Horse, I would love to see this happen. I'll be following this with great interest.
1705311
That's what I was hoping people wouldn't say. You can't call up greatness on demand when you write--IMHO it requires at least 2 things, a great writer, and luck. I place device heretic & AbsoluteAnonymous high on my list of pony writers, and I think they hit it maybe 1 time in 3.
1706121
I'll personally chalk up success to a great writer, luck, and a great editor, with the third being most critical, but I digress. I meant I have plenty of time to decide what I'm going to prioritize working on in the next few months. Whether any of it turns out any good is, I suppose, up to fate.
I guess my concern here is that if anyone you're looking for produces an original work of the sort of quality you're searching for, there's not a lot that indicates it'd be better for them to contribute it to this anthology endeavor than to push it down their own avenues.
1706372
I'd do it just to be fun and social and stuff. *shrug*
1706457
Fair 'nuff. :V
1706372
1706457
That, and it could also be a chance for some of us who like this whole 'writing' thing but haven't really tried to make anything of it to try it out in a new context without having to learn the whole rigamarole of self-publishing.
I frankly have very little idea about the quality of my own stuff, but I meet the requirements and I'd almost certainly send something in for this. I don't particularly care about getting paid, I'd just like the chance to try to shoot for a higher target and see if I can cut it.
Well, good luck with it, Mr. Horse. It's an ambitious project, and it'd be pretty neat to see you succeed at it. I like the idea of using the theme of 'Friendship' that someone else suggested--that seems appropriate for a bunch of pony authors, and frankly, it's also underserved in literature these days.
1706372
Selling a story to a normal publisher as your own first work is often a brutal, heartbreaking slog with no guarantee of success. Still no guarantee of success here, but possibly less of the 'brutal', 'heartbreaking', and 'slog'.
Self-publishing for money without an established fanbase is a bit like holding a party that no one comes to because you didn't have anyone you know to invite. The experience of webcomics seems to suggest that the size necessary to qualify as an 'established fanbase' is probably very large.
So yeah, worst case here, an author can hang out with friendly faces in mutual consolation, at least. Not bad compared to a lot of other options.
Okay, I've made a poll to learn the reading habits of the members of this site. (And settle a little debate I have with a friend.) I figure that you might find it useful for figuring out the best way to go about this project.
Sending my submission:
To this address got it bounced back to me from Googlegroups. I'll try beyond-ponies-forum@googlegroups.com and see if that goes through.
Mike
Hm. I'll work on something. No promises. My first instinct was a Holmes/Watson story, but I don't think I can carry the style. Maybe something on the line of Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, best enemies trying to get the girl...
That's an absolutley fantastic idea! Please contact the descendant as I know he has tried to get stuff published before!
As I just got done telling another author, you never accomplish anything by remaining static. I hope your group pulls through for ya Horse. As it is, the last time I heard an author (who I was editing for at the time) state a big goal, saying they wished to change the fandom's perceptions on a specific pair of ponies it was a dude named Chengar. I'm gonna go out on a branch and say he succeeded in his goal.
Your goal is more ambitious and is highly dependent on others to actually pull their fucking weight, which sadly in my experience, is not an easy thing to ensure.
Well, my six-months goals already include "write a non-pony story." Once you decide what to do about theme/content, I'll start working on something for this.
Did you have authors in mind to invite, or were you planning on waiting for people to ask to be invited?