• Member Since 8th Oct, 2011
  • offline last seen Nov 7th, 2023

Nicknack


Former author and proofreader/editor/fanfic troubleshooter.

More Blog Posts30

Jan
5th
2014

What is a (wo)man? A miserable pile of secrets? · 8:47pm Jan 5th, 2014

Note: (wo) in parenthesis was meant to imply this blog's title can apply to either gender, not that this blog is going to be a rant against women.

It should come as no surprise to anyone who's spent over an hour with this fandom that a noticeable vibe of misanthropy exists. That's not saying that everyone who likes this show hates people, but more that there's a certain amount of fantasy that some people speak a little too fondly of. That's also not saying this phenomenon is distinct to the My Little Pony fandom, either; in fact, this post was inspired in part by a CNN article about Avatar.


Still, it's no secret that when compared to Earth, Equestria seems simpler, brighter, more tolerant, and all in all, happier. Maybe these ponies, in their simple society, have figured something out that humans forgot once we moved from rural towns to bustling cityscapes...

But at the same time, their society is fairly technologically advanced. Sure, they don't have skyscrapers growing out of every settlement, but who needs a multi-story high-rise when a third of your population can literally live in the sky? Similarly, they don't need to focus much on agricultural R&D; earth pony magic handles that—a single pair of self-motivated siblings can run an entire orchard without any crafted tool more advanced than a plough. So it's not necessarily that these ponies' personalities allowed them to make a more pristine, eco-friendly society; it's that their tools (i.e., magic) were better suited for that.

I'll agree that Equestrian society looks nicer, but a society's appearance doesn't amount to jack shit. Google the Mass Games in North Korea—those look amazing, but I'm not sure they're indicative of North Korea's habitability. If we boil away the architecture and tools and focus on the citizens—the Equestrians—what are we left with? What makes their day-to-day so much different than humans', other than the circumstances they were born into?

You could say that they're more tolerant—three distinct races with different abilities live in harmony! But yet, they feared a creepy outsider—Zecora (who happens to be African-esque)—until they got to know her. I'm not saying Equestrians are racist, but that fear of strange, different outsiders is the very mental seed that sprouts into discrimination of all types.

You could say that Equestria has a friendlier society, but given that our lens for viewing this society is from a show that's called Friendship is Magic, I don't think we're getting a wholly unbiased view of life outside of the main group of six friends. When we do, we're given someone—usually Bon Bon—who's acting rude to the main characters. And let's not forget that the schoolkids have their own pair of bullies to deal with. It's extremely clear that these ponies have friends, acquaintances, and even ponies they dislike—just like humans do. They're left with the choice of how they act towards these ponies they dislike, which is something that everyone has to deal with at some point.

You could say that Equestria, with its tiny settlements, fosters a closer-knit society that bands together when there are hardships. But at the same time, look at how many volunteers or donors are sending time and effort to the Phillipines—which wouldn't have gotten as much attention without computer-driven mass media. Humanitarian efforts are less about helping your friends and neighbors, and more about helping someone who's the same species you are. I'm not saying that Equestrians don't do that (though there's never been an episode about that), but a town is as close-knit as it lets itself be.

Even their cutie marks aren't that far removed from human society. Sure, having a tattoo magically appear on your butt screams "pre-destination", but they're free to interpret their cutie marks as they see fit—just within a limited range. Humans have a similar limit of the range of vocations we choose to pursue; instead of a tattoo, we're given the experiences and capabilities that our childhood caregivers expose us to.

What it all boils down to, for me, is that—despite being tiny, colorful ponies—Equestria is a very human society. I mean that a very positive way, though—just like in Equestria, there is friendship, brightness, and happiness out there, even if sometimes, you've got to look harder to find it.

If you compare a show for six year olds to the nightly news (where they have to report things that are out of the ordinary and often violently so), then of course Equestria's going to look better. The important thing to bear in mind about any fantasy story is that it has a narrow scope, which is the plot. No one wants to read about Frodo's terrible constipation after eating nothing but Lembas bread for two months, and they shouldn't need to in order to enjoy Lord of the Rings.

However, if you look hard enough, you'll notice that Equestria's got enough crime to warrant a standing police force and royal guards, international disputes that often turn hostile, sickness, and death; yet, despite all that—or perhaps because of it—they've got the inner fortitude and tools available to withstand and overcome their society's imperfections.

But at the same time, humanity does, too.

In the end, I think it's about perspective. If you set out to find good, you'll find good; if you set out to find misery, you'll see it everywhere. The only difference is what you're hoping to find.

Report Nicknack · 2,039 views ·
Comments ( 49 )

Well said. People seem to forget that the reason we even like these characters, and this show, is that it feels real. In order to relate to what is happening, their world must be at least somewhat like our own. And like you said, that's not a bad thing. Quite the contrary.
Although, being that this is a bit of a fantasy world, it's a bit much to say that this world is entirely like our own, at least on the surface.

I can't help but find myself agreeing to everything you have presented on this post. It's both enlightening, and bit scary if you think about it.

Everything we think we know, depends on the viewpoints we hold.

Wanderer D
Moderator

I would still rather be a gryphon/unicorn/latias though :raritywink: nothing to do society

Comment posted by Professor Plum deleted Jan 5th, 2014

I think it's also worth noting that Ponies have shown very human flaws, like that one pony was willing to doom an entire valley to the whims of Ahuizotl for 800 years in order to get a bit of extra spending money. Picture perfect ponies my ass.

Well said, sir. Well said.

This is extremely common on /mlp/. You have the people who got out of depression because of the show and those who are sad because it's only a show. I'm happy/sad for them, respectively, but also a bit embarrassed. I've never felt like a show can really make someone lose perspective that they had, except maybe fight club.

I think the interest in Equestria and other worlds in general aren't really a new concept. People have an insatiable need for distractions in every phase of their lives. Books, movies, and television are all just a means to escape from a world people have had to live in all their lives and are just bored of. It's understandable to desire a world you can't have over the world you're in, especially when positive qualities of that world outshine our own.

The misanthropy and staggering amount of self-insert fics in this fandom are a perfect example of this. But just about any fanbase feels this way to some degree about their story. Just look at how obsessed Twilight fans were when those books were popular. The want to be in the other world seems to be pretty strong here in particular, but really it's just that need for distraction and looking for something better that we all feel.

For me, the biggest draw is not that the world is better, or more happy. It is that the other world is, simply put, another world. If that world was accessible, there would be more to explore in real life, and more to find and know. The world we live in is understood by a myriad of rules and constraints. Even if a setting has about the same number of rules, it is a relief to see those we have had to live with broken. I want to step off the edge of a (small) cliff and not fall till I look, I want to talk to equines and see divinity/immortality in the flesh. That is why it is depressing to leave the illusion.

Aye, I never thought of Equestria as a Utopia. Not even close. The only thing we can truly say about Equestria is that it has its differences and it has its similarities, but that can be said for quite literally everything.
I think part of the charm and appeal Equestria holds for us is that it reflects our own world, and yet it is also perceived as idealistic.

If we're being honest, Equestria has always struck me as something of a scary place to live.

I admit, the daily grind can really, really wear me down at times, but at least I never have to worry about fucking manticores eating me when decide to go for a walk in the woods. Or bears as tall as a football field is long. Or rampaging griffons that swoop out of the sky faster than can be seen. Or dragons deciding that Mt. Rainier is an awesome place to roost, ecological consequences be damned.

You really have to wonder if the reason Equestria seems so happy all the time is because that's a defense mechanism ponies use to calm their nerves and distract themselves from the fact that they could be eaten alive at any moment.

now that you mention it, i think Lord of the rings suffered greatly without the addition of Frodo's bowel movements (or rather, lack thereof). We should be looking into this

Also, great article

What about having a GOD as a ruler of your country? That sorts a lot of things out, I think.


Well I would visit Equestria but I don't want to live there. Why would I?

They don't eat meat, or despise those who do. I'd starve.

Aside from fandom stuff they don't seem to have internet

Ponies are the worst racists ever. There are hints of disgust against other races or types in several episodes.

If you aren't a Unicorn (or a Pegasus living in Cloudsdale), you'd be inferior to those mentioned.

I prefer girls with Ti:derpyderp2:s rather than equines. :scootangel:

Ponies seem to be pretty rude to each other and do not respect authority (Rarity takes Manehattan)

No Sir, I'll stay here in our world, even if it isn't as flashy as the other realm.

The Ponies are less aggressive than are Humans. The flip side of this is that most of them also have less initiative than do Humans. This is less than completely apparent on casual observation because the show focuses on six ponies who have a lot of courage and initiative -- which is why they were chosen to be Celestia's champions.

They also live in a world much more threatening than our own. We're the top predators and only sapient technological beings on Earth. We are thus the dominant species to such a degree that the main ecological problem is us devouring all other life with our insatiable appetite for expansion on Earth.

The Ponies are not predators, and they are the dominant species only within their own borders (note, though, that the Everfree is not a normal part of Equestria, but instead a sort of localized Hell-environment, rather like parts of the Amazon or the New Guinea highlands, by human standards). They must rationally fear predation and attack by hostile fellow-sapients, in a way that we don't.

What's more, their world is at the mercy of attack by mad gods and demons. It was worse in its past, too -- what we see today is very obviously the result of centuries of hard work on the part of Celestia and her followers. We may have to worry about nuclear attack, but we don't have to worry about Discord warping reality right out from under us and driving us insane on a whim.

I will conclude from this that the Ponies have been subjected to hellish evolutionary pressures of a sort that our species has not known. They are decent, kind and loveable in the face of a very dangerous future, in part, because they are really very tough. The Ponies we see are descended from generations who survived perils on a scale our own world rarely offers.

Thus, the Apple clan, to name the most obvious Badass Family in that universe -- and think for a moment that Big Mac and Applejack aren't all that old, yet they've lost both their parents -- and Granny Smith lost her husband, too). Yet, they're loving, cheerful and kind as they farm a steading on the edge of a forest from which monsters routinely emerge. They simply grit their teeth and rebuild, when the inevitable happens. "Raise This Barn," indeed.

Honestly, this is part of why I write darkfics.

Paradise is where the mass graves are well hidden.

Equestria hides them very well indeed, something I feel compelled to explore.

I think there are certain frameworks a story can fit that, while not requiring the story to have particular messages or fantasies, attract people who love that message or fantasy and find the story particularly easy to warp to fit it.

If I may go afield for a moment, it's well-known in roleplaying circles that there's a certain kind of person who may show up if you LARP Vampire the Masquerade. They like to tell people that they're vampires, even when they're not playing the game, and they get really into the whole "blood" thing. They consider themselves superior to "ordinary humans," so they pitch a fit when other people don't do as they say. Sometimes they even bite!

This is not to say that this type of person is the typical LARPer for that game--unless they're running the group, the group will eventually ban them from participating further. And this is not to say that you can't find these people playing Changeling, or Exalted, or even Dungeons and Dragons. But Vampire is a particularly popular fantasy for them, because it matches to a lot of the things they wish were true.

There's a certain kind of person who reads fics about humans turning into ponies, and thinks "Yay, fic about stupid, smelly humans becoming superior beings! I'll write my own fic about this!" But there's a certain kind of person who reads fics about ponies turning into humans, and thinks "Yay, fic about naked girls with no knowledge of social customs landing in ordinary men's backyards! I'll write my own fic about this!" And for that matter, there's a certain kind of person who reads Discord romance, then uses him to work out their desire to be dominated, and a certain kind of person who reads Spike romance, then uses him to work out their desire to dominate other people.* And I don't think that reflects negatively on the original works--I've faved at least one great story that was explicitly cited as inspiration for a creepy story. It's just something that happens, and you need to be able to recognize the people who get weird and creepy about it.

Though generally, this is why I avoid multi-author settings that involve humans or ponies turning into each other. Unless the folks in charge are really good about weeding out the creeps, bad stuff ensues.

* Yes, Spike, the baby dragon, is used for domination fantasies. I don't get it either.

I was about to say that corruption doesn't extend into their uppermost levels of government, but then I remembered Luna's backstory.

What it all boils down to, for me, is that—despite being tiny, colorful ponies—Equestria is a very human society. I mean that a very positive way, though—just like in Equestria, there is friendship, brightness, and happiness out there, even if sometimes, you've got to look harder to find it.

This is very true, and a large part of why the show is so appealing. It's not that the ponies are better than us humans, but that they are a reminder of us in our better moments, telling that we too can be kind, honest, loyal, cheerful and generous, and that friendship is worth it.

You could say that they're more tolerant—three distinct races with different abilities live in harmony! But yet, they feared a creepy outsider—Zecora (who happens to be African-esque)—until they got to know her. I'm not saying Equestrians are racist, but that fear of strange, different outsiders is the very mental seed that sprouts into discrimination of all types.

And the ponies were also, initially, more than willing to accept Gilda the Gryphon... So... your point stumbles even inside the first season. Not to mention that Zecora was wearing concealing clothing, something which was and has been frowned upon in human history no matter your culture or color. If you see a person wearing a mask, there are in fact reasons that you suspect that person may be up to ill-intentions.

1687724 I'm inclined to agree with this, the ponies have had to deal with crap that humans have not. Just imagine an Earth with poison joke, and the absolute havoc that could cause. Ponies live in a grey world, but they don't let it turn themselves grey.

1688479 I find a particularly enlightening quote from the first Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock Holmes film is appropriate when dealing with assessments of literature or even the world.

*Watson is stopped by Sherlock mere inches from a near-invisible blade that would have killed him.*
"How did you see that?"
"I looked for it." *Sherlock smashes the blade.*

1689329
Gilda wasn't an outsider, though; she was in town as Rainbow Dash's guest. So my point still stands that ponies, on some level, have a natural dislike of outsiders.

1689354 And what about Iron Will? A park-full of ponies went to his presentation. What about Cranky Doodle Donkey? And you didn't address my point that Zecora was wearing concealing clothing.

I'm going to have to re-watch that episode, and see if there is any explicit mentioning that "Zebras are bad."

1687842

I don't think that the (modern) Equestrians themselves are particularly murderous, though I do think that Equestria wasn't always in the past as enlightened a culture as it is today (there's some support for this in canon, especially in the Heart's Warming Eve episode). In particular, I don't think that Celestia is a tyrant -- the term for her kind of leadership would be "Good Queen" or "benevolent despot."

1689369
Again, my original point was,

I'm not saying Equestrians are racist, but that fear of strange, different outsiders is the very mental seed that sprouts into discrimination of all types.

So... if she's wearing concealing clothes for the first two times they encounter her? Fine. That's still my point is that they occasionally fear outsiders, which can roll into illogical assumptions about outsiders—like how they broke into her home to stop her from eating Applebloom after they saw her without her disguise.

1689369

Zecora's wearing a hooded cloak at the start of that episode. She has two obvious reasons: she doesn't want to draw attention to her most obvious physical difference (her stripes), and also it's probably colder in Ponyville than it is in her home country.

1689407 And then when we look at it, we see that the situation actually has a lot more qualifiers than just "strange, different outsiders..."

1689411 True.

So... (and this can be taken as a more broad statement than to just the two I've replied to above) we see that even in the case of Zecora, ponies had a basis for some of their points, that of Zecora concealing herself, to say nothing of other actions which are quite legitimately interpreted as suspicious, such as living alone in a place where most creatures would eat ponies, (in a world where some of your predators may indeed be sapient no less, the concept of having a deal with a monster is indeed a legitimate concern), and Zecora had her reasons for her actions, she wanted to cause as little of a commotion with her presence as possible, and it backfired.

1689424
Not really. She's strange—wearing a cloak, even. She's an outsider—they know who she is, but she doesn't live in the town. So they fear some strange outsiders, even if they're inconsistently accepting of other strange outsiders

1689434 Well, look at some of the things Zecora has done: produced the remedies to two esoteric afflictions (poison joke and cutie pox), taught Twilight in the use of misdirection and slights of hand/hoof, provided a potion granting visions of the past.

Zecora is powerful or at bare minimum exceptionally skilled in fields that fall outside of usual pony practice, and if potions are the usual schtick of zebra in general, it might be appropriate to take that into account when assessing something as a threat.

1689449
>and if potions are the usual schtick of zebra in general, it might be appropriate to take that into account when assessing something as a threat
And that's not mildly racist at all. :ajbemused:

Regardless, it still proves my main point I was making on the issue, so where is this discussion going?

1689461 Are you denying that Zecora holds the ability to commit malicious deeds if she was the sort to want to do that?

Sometimes fear has a rational basis, that is my point, and I should hope that you and all others viewing this blog keep that in mind when they bring up the tired old issue of "Zecora! Look at what they did!"

And that's just it, I see it and I see a sapient species of herd-mentality, herbivorous ancestry taking stock of what is known, and applying it.

You know the thing with racism amidst humans? Such as in the 1800's sugar plantations? People could quite readily observe black people, find things out, pursue knowledge. Instead? They ignored the minor details that they had language, raised families, had craftsmen, ways of viewing the world. For centuries. With downright cruelties of starvation, rape, familial separation, and outright murder.

The mane six? They charged into a house when they had reasonable (and correct) basis to suspect that Apple Bloom was in that house.

Maybe it isn't a difference in kind or quality, but it's a long-shot hail-Mary in terms of degree or quantity.

Take it into account the next time you give an account of this nature.

1689492
They charged into the house because they saw a boiling cauldron and immediately jumped to "she's going to eat Applebloom", because that's what their fear of strange outsiders led them to believe. It wasn't "Applebloom's in danger from a stranger", which would've been logical—they don't know this pony, she might be dangerous. It was "she's going to eat her", mostly because they'd been singing songs about how she was different from them—remember, they eventually turned Twilight to their side of "Zecora is creepy".

Which, again, is the point I was making: fear of outsiders leads to irrational conclusions and generalizations, and both humans and ponies have this shortcoming.

1689613 Think to a time you've been scared about someone you care about. Did you generalize the threat to an abstract upon which you could build upon? I think not, chances are you had some particulars in mind as to what the threat was.

And I'll note you did not address the fact that in the case of human racism, we had the opportunity to observe and learn, but didn't, no less the scale of what was done.

1689902
It's difficult to hold a conversation with you because you keep missing the point my blog post was trying to make.

1689941 Then next time avoid the glib use of bringing up racism through the rhetorical denial of it.

It's much the same as going "I'm not saying Bill Clinton was an asshole..." or "I'm not saying Hitler had some points..." or "I'm not saying George Bush is racist..." or "I'm not saying Italians are fond of using cheese in their cooking..." or "I'm not saying that the Greek government has trouble with math..." If you're not saying it, don't say it, because otherwise, you are, and it's quite frankly insulting to the intelligence of others.

EDIT: Ah, found the concise terminology, apophasis.

I hope in the future that--if you truly did not intend to use such reviled craft to manipulate others--you do not use it again in the future.

1689406
Oh, I'm in agreement. I just happen to think that their past is a very nasty one indeed.

In my various different universes to play with, the specifics may vary, but it always comes down to one fascinating little question... isn't it interesting how everypony seems to be on the verge of a nervous breakdown?

Almost like the entire species seems to suffer from some sort of collective PTSD.

1689406
Though, my own initial reply aside, I'm also inclined to think that canon supports the idea that, while Equestria is somewhat nicer than here (as you might expect of an herbivorous society), it's also got its bad elements. Especially after what we've seen in Manehattan, which is much less friendly.

Not that I think the otherwise delightful Eyes Without a Face (by TheyCallMeJub) is canon or anything (Everybody say it with me - "No shit, Sherlock!"), but I quite enjoy those darker takes on Equestria.

My main point I was getting at was that the very fact we see such a utopian view of things is what leads some people, myself especially, to want to peel back the siding and see if the house is about to fall apart from woodrot.

1690039

They're living in a world which they know to be unstable. I don't think that the state of affairs starting with Luna's return is normal (the show recently implied that everything from "Elements of Harmony" to "Princess Twilight Sparkle" took place over a single year, which looks impossible from the seasonal clues in episodes, but even a longer count has it take place over just 3 years, which means that -- in three years --

Nightmare Moon came back and tried to cause eternal night,

Only to turn back into Princess Luna, who is now patrolling their dreams.

Then Discord spread chaos throughout the land,

Then Changelings -- who can look like your wife or best friend -- attacked the capital city. Nearly won, too.

Then King Sombra, another figure out of forgotten nightmares, returned -- luckily, he too was defeated.

Finally, a Summer Sun Celebration was disrupted when mysterious vines came out of nowhere, captured the Ruling Princesses, and started to spread over the land.

This is sort of like the actual history, of, say, 1960-1963, as it would have been if Nikita Krushchev, Fidel Castro and Lee Harvey Oswald had been metahuman reality-warping demons from beyond space and time. I think it says a lot about the basic psychological strength of the Ponies that they still go about their lives, make and trade things, make friends and fall in love and have foals, despite crap like this going on.

1690080
Ah, but here's the question - is it the mass of crises that leads to the instability?

Or vice-versa?

After all, one suspects that Luna was not at her most stable when she went all Nightmare Moon!

Discord... well, Discord. 'Nuff said!

My most commonly adopted theory, personally, is that the Crystal Empire was actually the "old country" of Hearth's Warming Eve, and that even before then it was the Alicorn Empire... up until the alicorns got themselves whupped and several of themselves warped into figures like Queen Chrysalis.

1689424

The two biggies:

(1) In their experience, monsters come out of the Everfree. Zecora lives in the Everfree. Hence it is plausible to imagine Zecora a monster, some sort of Equinoid Abomination. (She's actually a really nice alchemist/herbalist/scholar mare, but they didn't know that at the time, now did they?)

(2) Zecora acts suspicious, by their standards. It's really just that there's some initial distrust of her, and she responds to this distrust by becoming even more withdrawn, but that's the essence of mutual misjudgements, now isn't it?

Are the Equestrians displaying race-prejudice? Maybe, though note that they don't actually have a prejudice against Zebras -- they know very little about them. What they're displaying a prejudice against is "mysterious mystics," and for the good reason that they know from experience that they can be dangerous ponies.

The essence of this test, for Twilight Sparkle, was whether or not she could look past the superficial and come to realize that somepony very different from her could be good. She ultimately passed the test, and in consequence found a mentor, alchemist and friend whose acquaintance she might otherwise not have enjoyed. And this helps Twilight on her later quests: Zecora is frequently useful as a source of knowledge, advice and specialized potions.

Your point, Nicknack, is older than you imagine.

Who was the very first writer, over 250 years before the very first incarnation of My Little Pony, to postulate an almost-utopian civilization of sapient equinoids?

Jonathan Swift, in Part IV of Gulliver's Travels. To show you that nothing is truly new, he almost Ship Teases Gulliver and "The Sorrel Nag." And, what's even better, the whole point of the section is an examination of the possibility of a culture based upon pure Reason, and whether or not such a culture (that of the Houyhnhms) would constitute Utopia or Dystopia!

I like this from the angle of anti-misanthropy, but in terms of sociology/political science and the like I think it's more interesting to treat Equestria as something closer to an ambiguous utopia than our own world, rather than to assume they have the exact same problems we do (but that they aren't shown because it's a kid's TV show). That feels lazy to me, and it destroys opportunity for some more interesting takes on their world. The power of "friendship" and "harmony" being actual forces, apparently, for instance, and ponies having been shaped by these forces over the years. That's not to say that they don't have problems, but that their problems are not necessarily our own, nor are how they solve said problems. After all, we don't have magic love explosions to toss out invading armies, nor the relatively prosaic knowledge that all animals are just as conscious as we are - these things, and many like them, would seem to change a lot between our worlds.

For my part, I find that many stories that try to "darken up" Equestria or explore some hidden evil side to it are often just as misanthropic as the HiE "fuck-the-world-and-everyone-in-it" ones; they recognize that there's no massive, intrinsic difference in goodness between humans and fictional ponies, at least, but their mistrust of anything that seems decent is the same impulse that drives the latter group to condemn all of humanity in the first place.

"No one wants to read about Frodo's terrible constipation after eating nothing but Lembas bread for two months, and they shouldn't need to in order to enjoy Lord of the Rings."

What? Just me?

You make good points. I always kind of roll my eyes whenever I'm reading a story that makes Equestria out to be a perfect utopia with no problems whatsoever.

We are seeing this world through the lens of a show originally made for little girls. Someone from another planet who had nothing to watch but Arthur or Dora the Explorer might make similar conclusions about earth and humanity.

1689329

Ponies live in a grey world, but they don't let it turn themselves grey.

It's interesting you take that perspective, Wes. (May I call you Wes? I'm calling you Wes.) It's interesting in that I was understanding Equestria to be a fairy-land. As in... the old sense of the fae folk kind of fairy land. Everything is brighter there, but also wilder and therefore potentially more dangerous. The opposite of grey, really. This is a matter of perspective though.

1693828

For my part, I find that many stories that try to "darken up" Equestria or explore some hidden evil side to it are often just as misanthropic as the HiE "fuck-the-world-and-everyone-in-it" ones; they recognize that there's no massive, intrinsic difference in goodness between humans and fictional ponies, at least, but their mistrust of anything that seems decent is the same impulse that drives the latter group to condemn all of humanity in the first place.

I like your use of the phrase "darken up". It's quite apt, and it also makes them sound like unwanted interior decorators. Another motivation behind the impulse is that they feel that Equestria is a Mary-Sue-Topia, or that the ponies are just too good, so they re-balance it. You know, to make it seem fair to them. Like it's an RPG system.

I wish I had been pointed at this blog post earlier, because I have a bit of wisdom to add, and I want it to be injected into the conversation early, but here it is late: My Little Pony is not now and never has been xenofiction and one shouldn't try to treat it like it is. You can for fun, but it is a frivolous exercise. The ponies are essentially horse-shaped humans informed by human ideals about interpersonal relationships and virtues. Making comparisons between them and human civilization as we know it is painful, confusing, and a distraction.

Which is actually something that drives me nuts about the over-emphasis on HiE this site has, but that's a pretentious, smug rant for another day.

Some people dislike humans. There are emotional walls between them that they don't share with non-humans. For example, imagine walking down the street and a stray cat walks up, rubs against your leg and purrs. So you pet the cat. This makes both you and the cat happy.

It doesn't work that way with people.

There are social pressures that create emotional distance. If your'e a human it's not socially acceptable to see another human and rush up and rub against its leg. A cat can do this. A dog can do this. Humans aren't allowed. It's not socially acceptable. And if a human does rush up to you and start rubbing your leg, it's not socially acceptable to happily accept the attention and pet them back. There's a great deal of love and affection that humans withhold from one another simply because that's what humans do.

With ponies, we have an intelligent species with whom we can relate, intellectually, emotionally, socially...but we don't have those emotional barriers like we do between humans.

How many of us, if Pinkie Pie were to appear next to us, would be able to look her in the eyes and say "I love you" and hug her. And genuinely mean it. Without feeling social pressure. Not be saying it because we felt obligated to. Not be saying it to manipulate her into saying it back. Simply..."I love you" with no hesitation, no manipulation, no ulterior motive, no ill intent. Fluttershy? Celestia? Derpy? How many ponies, were they to appear in your life, could you simply and genuinely express love for?

How many humans in your life could you say the same for?

I could tell Pinkie I love her and mean it. And yet, I know married couples who've been together for 10+ years who can't.

standing police force ..., international disputes that often turn hostile

Can anyone provide examples of a standing police force or international disputes. I'm not saying that the author...er poster...OP...however-we-refer-to-them-is-wrong, I just can't remember ever seeing either of these things in the show.

sickness, and death

I remember both these things being in the show, most prominently in the episode where Applejack makes poison cupcakes, and then the brief scene in Hearts and Hooves day were one of the CMC (Apple Bloom I think) is dancing on a coffin at a funeral.

Comment's are all pretty interesting, what with their pseudo-philosophical* comments on Human vs. Pony society and how one views both. If I had anything to add to the topic I would weigh in, but I don't, and if I did I get the suspicion I would be quickly overwhelmed.

*I only say pseudo because I assume no one on this forum is actually a philosopher or otherwise trained in philosophy. Then again since the discussion is fundamentally about how the human world and the pony world are different, and how we as human's view them, anyone is as equally qualified to talk about it as anyone else, barring the word of god.

I thought of something, and I'm almost certainly already in over my head, because I see a lot of mild, intelligent debate going on, and debating is not my strong suit. Anyway.

First off, I think a degree of misanthropy is a part of human nature, but so too is the opposite. What is the opposite of misanthropy? Humanism? Rousseau Was Right? Anyway, there are times when I rail against my fellow man, especially when I see something terrible that's happened or think back on some horrible event in history, but there are also times when I think humanity is awesome, mostly in connection to the worlds space programs and the amazing potential there. Some days I'm a naive dreamer. Others I'm a cynical monster. I would say that more often that not I'm cynical. Make of that what you will.

Now, obviously HiE stories are subject to a particularly high amount of misanthropy because you've taken a human (whose probably mostly grey, because I assume that most people view the world as mostly grey rather than black and white) and put him into the world of ponies (which is either a much lighter shade of grey or black and white). Depending on the individual human, it's either going to be an uplifting tale that proves humans can reach beyond themselves, or a dark tale about how humans are the real monsters. Or somewhere in between. In comparison to a Utopian society of ponies the human will probably end up looking bad.

Okay, I've got to take a side or this isn't going to go anywhere. Humans are mostly terrible creatures (although I would argue that without society, acting awfully to your fellow man would be the only way to survive and get ahead). A lot of the choices we make potentially screw over someone else, and sometimes we don't care. Let's take a hypothetical. 'A person is running down a flight of stairs, away from a fire. These are poorly designed stairs (so they're probably in NYC) and there is a little old lady in front of him, taking up the staircase and running much more slowly than he is. He pushes the little old lady out of the way, and ultimately survives.' Actually, that is a terrible example. Nearly anybody would feel bad about that later. Let's look at something a little more benign. 'You find twenty dollars on the ground and nobody else is around. You take the money and keep it.' The more...hmm...pro-intrinsic goodness angle would be that you find twenty dollars, and then scour the earth until you find whoever lost the twenty, but that's probably not going to happen. I would argue that most people would keep the money, with one or two rare exceptions.

So I guess my point is that misanthropy is sometimes valid. Huh, real decisive opinion. Maybe this is why I'm bad at debate.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is that if one looks at the natural world one does not see a lot of altruism. My favorite aspect of humanity is our ability to strive beyond this base-self for something better, even if that goal is unobtainable.

My second, and less related point is canon. Fan works exist so that it's creators can play with a world they enjoy as they see fit. No work of fandom is ever going to be canon. Maybe not even 'almost canon', because in my view canon only comes from one place the word/works of god (meaning here the original creator rather than a deity). For instance, I view the works of Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes as the official Holmes canon. I do not see any other authors derivative works as canon. Sometimes I'll even go so far as to say that comic books based on a series aren't canon unless the word of god says so. If Herbert West reanimated H.P. Lovecraft and he said that some author's derivative work set in the Cthulhu mythos was canon, I'd accept it but not before then.

I love to read fics like Jericho, or The Immortal Game, or Taking Care of Animals, because it provides a different look at a world I love. Jericho gets about as far away from canon as one can, but I still think it's awesome. They provide a different world with slightly different characters. Sometimes the world is only a little darker and edgier. Sometimes it's extreme (Cupcakes, anyone?). Sometimes the world is brighter and more innocent than canon. Sometimes the setting is fairly consistent with canon but investigates things canon doesn't, like romance or the boring humdrum life of a normal pony, as opposed to the exceptional main cast.

My final point in this long and rambling post is that humans cannot create something alien. What I mean by that is human's cannot (I believe) create something so far outside human experience that another human (given enough time or education or what-have-you) could not comprehend it. For instance, I do not understand tentacle porn, but I believe that, given enough saturation, it could be something I could come to understand and maybe even enjoy. The same goes for rap music, lattes, and high level mathematics.

These ponies we've all grown so attached to are not alien. They are humans in pony clothing. They are allegories. Don't forget that this show's original intent was to instill life lessons in young children, so it has to be within human comprehension, particularly child comprehension. This show is not some edgy, transformative piece of art that will forever change man's understanding of the universe, but a show built on the backs of giants, like power-puff girls or the Brother's Grimm retellings of classic folklore. But fanfiction can strive to be greater than the show. It can strive to be transformative, with beautiful aesops and chilling revelations about our true nature. Fanfiction is the little man standing on top of the giant on the giant's backs screaming "Buck you, I'm at the top."

Login or register to comment