Online Abuse On Fimfiction, part two of four. · 6:49pm May 26th, 2013
My Letter to Graeme Pollard(Knighty)
email: knight33@gmail.com
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Hello, Graeme!
I’m Jennifer Reitz, (Chatoyance on Fimfiction) and I wanted to write to you about programming with regard to Fimfiction. You probably know me as the writer who was harassed into leaving. Rather than being angry, I'd like to help the situation as it stands.
In the 80’s, before I founded my own little software company - Accursed Toys, Inc. - I worked for many companies. There was a saying at the time among designers, like myself, and programmers too, that ‘The Interface IS The Game’. This is fairly common sense - the entire possibility set which a user has available to them in any program is circumscribed by the interface they use.
But interface is far more than a set of command options. Interface defines and creates user experience, and in a social context, as with a social website, interface directly shapes user culture.
Humans Can Be Programmed
Human behavior is programmed and shaped in countless deliberate ways, and any given culture - from that of the men of a military boot camp to the tone and attitude of a classroom - is, optimally, deliberately shaped and created to serve a defined goal. When social behavior is not shaped and defined, people become confused about what is expected of them, they often fall to a lowest common denominator of behavior, and chaos ultimately ensues. Social environments can be programmed through the choices of those creating them.
Fimfiction is a social environment.
Options Are A Form Of Communication
In any computer game, the tone, emotion, and feeling of the work are defined not just by the graphics or the music or the characters, such human matters are also created by the possibility set available to the player. In any situation, be it physical interaction or online interaction, mood and feeling are likewise defined by the chosen set of allowed actions.
The Three Choices
In any program, game or website, everything that matters to the user ultimately reduces to choice. From an emotional standpoint, there are three types of choices: Antagonistic, Amicable, and Neutral.
A Neutral choice is purely functional. Selecting a font, choosing to save or load, these choices are tools and carry no social power in and of themselves.
An Antagonistic choice is one where the user is pitted in some fashion against another user, or a perceived opponent real or computer controlled. Antagonistic choices generate conflict, upset, and drama, but also excitement. Antagonistic choices promote tribalism, infighting, and a social contract of warfare.
An Amicable choice is one where the user cooperates with other users or adds to a growing body of mutual choices. Amicable choices promote fellowship, civility, and a social contract of mutuality.
Thumbs Up, Thumbs Down
The use of tools to express opinion within a social space is useful and common, but how such tools are implemented has a tremendous effect upon the emotional character of such a space.
The use of a ‘Thumb Up To Approve, Thumb Down To Disapprove’ option instantly introduces conflict. It is an Antagonistic choice set. Users comprehend the tone of their online social environment through the possibility set provided them. Websites that wish to generate conflict and drama provide means by which users can polarize themselves into opposing tribes and groups. Fighting and turmoil is a natural result as these means are utilized. For a website about Klingon Fandom within Star Trek, for example, the use of an ‘Up Dagger’ and a ‘Down Dagger’ would be expected. Klingons are warriors, and opposition is their nature.
Friendship Is Choices
For a website defined by values of cooperation, tolerance, and compassion, conflict choices would generate a culture at odds to the subject matter. The options provided to a user within a program define their experience, more than this, the available set of options defines mood, tone and the emotional feeling of the user.
In the case of Fimfiction, the choice to provide both ‘thumbs up’ and ‘thumbs down’ is an antagonistic choice set. It communicates opposition and encourages dispute and discordance, conflict and tribalism. It is in opposition to the milieu of My Little Pony. That it can also be abused to entirely erase the posts of users only enhances this effect. The result is bullying and social warfare.
By constraining the possibility set to limit user actions to only those things that are desired or which are appropriate to the subject matter, online culture is defined and reinforced.
Eliminating all oppositional choices creates a shared culture. It is a form of communication, of programming, which instinctively defines to the user what is expected by what is possible.
Eliminating any such choice as ‘Thumbs Down’ would go far towards silently, elegantly shaping the user culture of Fimfiction. Leaving only ‘Thumbs Up’ allows expression of opinion, but places the emphasis entirely on positive, shared, cooperative attitudes. The user can chose to go out of their way to show support - ‘say something nice’ - or refrain from support - ‘or don’t say anything at all’. This unconsciously promotes civil behavior without having to say a single word.
The single worst possible abuse that could be made of a purely ‘Thumbs Up’ system would be that a group of dedicated superfans might over-praise a given work. This is not any kind of problem, and if anything, encourages users to behave in ways that garner positive feelings.
Covering The Socket-Outlets
Every option, tool, or selection offered to a user should be considered through the filter of “How could a truly vicious person abuse this?” While only a small percentage of people are likely to abuse a given system to hurt others or to cause trouble, the damage a single determined user can do to even a large social group is great. Essentially, the interface to any program, especially software designed to create a social environment, requires child-proofing.
While some web sites thrive on interpersonal and group conflict - such as the defunct Portal Of Evil, or Encyclopedia Dramatica and 4-chan - their membership is limited to a small subset of possible online users.
Fimfiction appeals to a much larger potential audience, one that includes the very young to the very old. If a large participation is desired, all design should optimally exist to reduce conflict, encourage civility and mutuality, and generate emotions of welcoming and safety. This is the tack taken by successful commercial websites, such as those owned by Disney, Nintendo and others. A safe, civil environment provides the greatest possibility of a maximal audience.
No Room For Hate
When I, and many others, were singled out for harassment because of our participation on Fimfiction, it was a very traumatic experience. Many highly productive writers dedicated to helping and supporting other writers have fled entirely, myself included. Initially, I will honestly say that I desired nothing less than bloody retribution. Such feelings are precisely what are not useful or optimal for a My Little Pony website to generate. There are ways to prevent such harassment before it begins, through website design alone, such as shown in the ‘Thumbs Up’ example.
But sometimes it is absolutely necessary to impose culture, and in doing so, the best model is one of effective parenting.
An effective parent sets rules and boundaries, clearly states the consequences of breaking those rules and boundaries, and then fully and completely follows through with imposing those consequences should the rules be broken.
The single greatest failure a parent or leader can make is to fail to follow through completely when imposing consequences. At best the parent or leader is seen as weak and ineffective, at worst they are seen as complicit in the breaking of the rules by all concerned, especially those actually breaking the rules themselves.
Human beings (of any age) operate under a base assumption that whatever is not forbidden is allowed. If someone in charge is ignores violations, then the assumption is that permission has been tacitly given.
This happened with regard to the contentious Anti-TCB hate group. When it was deleted, it was immediately restored, the members believing that the entire deletion had been a software glitch or accident.
If a leader or parent figure weakly imposes consequences, then they are perceived as weak and easily manipulated, or they are seen as tacitly supporting those they are dealing with.
This also is true with regard to the Anti-TCB group (now the Alternative TCB Group), who express, openly, just these thoughts. The rule was not harass others, and they now conform to appearing to not openly harass anyone. This is not the same as ceasing destructive behavior. Since no real consequence came of their actions, and since nothing was clearly defined or said with regard to their actions, their reasonable assumption is that they can get away with anything so long as it is not overt.
I should note that I, and others, are still being harassed even after leaving entirely.
When faced with clearly destructive, antagonistic behavior within a social environment, it is necessary to reiterate a clear and firm statement of policy followed by fully followed through consequences. This is the only way to establish order, which is why it is the established methodology of human history. Partial efforts, weak warnings and failing to deal with a problem only leads to endless troubles in the long term.
This can be seen most clearly in children raised by ineffective parents.
You Are The Parent, You Are The Programmer
You own Fimfiction. You are seen, rightfully, as the leader, the authority, the parent, who defines the rules and tone of the website. This is true whether or not you desire such responsibility, because primates naturally desire an authority figure - a grayback - to establish order. Your behaviors and actions towards your users are a form of programming. Even as you program the code of the website, your communication with your users programs the society your website collects. You program your user base through what you say and do, and how you construct your interface. Neither side can be neglected, or all falls into some degree of malfunction.
Parenting is simply hacking children into proper social function. To run a social environment - such as a forum website - optimally, it is required that you act the role expected of you, which is that of a leader, a grayback, a parent. Your users are your children, and your actions and pronouncements - or lack thereof - determine what they become.
I encourage you to think carefully about what kind of social environment you actually want to create with regard to Fimfiction. Do you want a contentious society filled with grief and harassment, a place where users - especially the young, the vulnerable, the creative and sensitive - feel unwelcome, endangered or threatened?
Do you want Fimfiction to be a place where the greatest number of people, of all ages and temperaments, gather to celebrate My Little Pony with creativity and mutual support?
You have the power to construct, to program, either possibility, and in fact you are already doing so. Your every choice and action - or inaction - accomplishes precisely this.
My experience of Fimfiction, as well as the experience of many others, is that Fimfiction is increasingly becoming a typical internet place of abuse and harassment. This is inevitable, as any website grows in population, unless strong and considered action is taken to deliberately shape the culture as it develops.
One tool is through the options presented to the user - what they can and cannot do, and how any given tool or gadget can be abused, or how abuse is prevented, or made irrelevant.
Another tool is by treating the users as your own and parenting them effectively, making what is permissible clear, and what is not allowed even more clear, and then following robustly and implacably through with any corrective action. No second chances, no wheedling out of anything, no weakness.
To respond correctively to a breach of law is to keep a promise - to fail to do so is to have one’s words and authority forever considered questionable. Failing to follow through is how parents lose control of their children, and how children go bad.
it is also how social websites become nightmare places of abuse and incivility that push users away.
Conclusion
Thank you for listening to me, for hearing me out.
During my time on Fimfiction, I had one of the best years of my entire life. For a single year, I felt part of a supportive, intelligent, clever group of writers all sharing a mythos in common. I wrote some 800,000 words, possibly some of the best writing of my life. The experience of camaraderie and shared creativity got me through some terrible real-life events: Two of my spouses (I live in a polyamory, or group marriage) nearly died, the victims of MRSA and foodborne infections. They survived, barely, but the trauma of these horrific events brought me desperately low. Only writing my Conversion Bureau stories, and feeling part of the Fimfiction community kept me able to function during that time.
When the Anti-TCB began its attacks upon me, my family, and our servers and property, it destroyed for me the single greatest emotional escape and support I had in my life outside of my own endangered family. I miss writing for my Fimfiction fans more than I can adequately express. But as long as Fimfiction remains combative and hate groups remain, I feel excluded and forced away.
I know I am not alone in that feeling.
I am told that you care about such matters as these, but simply are unsure what to do about them. My wish, in writing this to you, is to offer some idea of effective strategies you can use to make Fimfiction a safe and inclusive place with no room for hate within it. I would find it difficult to imagine that you would wish it to be a place of anger and abuse.
I believe there are several things that can be done immediately to sculpt the society of the Fimfiction users.
One is to reexamine the site interface and shed any option or gadget that permits the abuse of others. My first choice would be the ‘Down Thumb’, to remove it universally. The ‘Up Thumb’ is a benefit, alone.
Another thing that would help would be to make sure that users can block others in - all - cases, and that the blocking choices of a user who starts a group are transferred to that group automatically.
The establishment of a clear and precisely defined policy against harassment should be made highly accessible and obvious, and it should be enforced with robust and implacable determination and effect. The trusted Moderators should be given the tools to enforce the policy, and encouraged to take action swiftly and definitively. It should be made clear there is absolutely zero tolerance of harassment, hate groups and bullying, and that all users are expected to treat each other with great respect. To be effective, there can be no weakness in this. (I myself have used all of these methods in our own websites over the years to absolute effect. They work.)
For the future, I would offer that it would be wise to consider the development of Fimfiction, and any other social websites you may create, in terms of what functions of both interface and policy are needed in order to create the exact social structure you desire. Define the kind of society you wish to create as part of the process of programming the whole. Hack the social environment - it is an extension of the function of your code, if you think about it.
With respect - and hope,
Jennifer Diane Reitz (Chatoyance)
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I have never received a response.
Do you agree with any of this? You can make it happen, you know. Just demand it loudly enough, for long enough.
NEXT TIME:
What You Can Do To Make Fimfiction A Safer Place
I'll just point out for now that the "social interaction features" have been moving away from more neutral/amicable options since the beginning. 1-to-5 story ratings were dropped in favor of Up/Down, with no neutral option. We used to be able to separate Track/Favorite, which were merged and/or replaced with a Read Later holding pen, depending on how you used them. The Block function doesn't work as you'd expect it to. The post-hiding feature is an abuse magnet.
When each of these changes were implemented, large portions of the userbase were vocal in their displeasure. The reaction was always "deal with it". Even when changes were reverted due to popular outcry (remember when the "words read" counter first disappeared?) they were later re-implemented with no announcement.
Well, it's good to have you back in some capacity regardless - I knew you were too good to be cowed into silence forever! If nothing else, that kind of retreat would be inconsistent with the pro-social, radically humanistic moral universe you've built up in your own stories.
These are going to be difficult and uncomfortable to read, but it's always better in the long run to see an issue confronted explicitly and head-on. I'm fortunate enough not to have ever suffered anything that could be called real bullying or abuse, but I don't think that should actually be good fortune, either, but a baseline people should be able to take for granted.
Sure, you need resilience and some kind of emotional immune system, but for like, friendly teasing, and accidental insensitivity or ignorance; the culpability for outright attack is all on the attacker - It's not a sin to be an easy target.
It's always a little creepy to talk about changing a system to adjust people's behavior, but it's really only taking advantage of people's tendency to inertia and to not go forward with something if there are too many obstacles in the way - They're perfectly free to make their own decisions, it's just changing the factors that go into those decisions.
It's really the only way things improve, anyway, and I wish more people were aware of this kind of design -> environment -> behavior loop, otherwise you're dependent on what's essentially a pure "conspiracy" to be civil, which is far more unrealistic.
I also think they should do away with the thumbs down. Well written. ^^
I was surprised to find out there was an actual anti-TCB group of all things. I'm not big on the world setting but yeesh, dedicated haters? And in the fandom? Insanity...
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They're an unprofessional staff with only so much time on their hands, when you're the one in charge and you don't get paid to do something eventually all the drama makes you apathetic. At that's how I perceive our current environment. Either way it's the best we've got so I stick with it.
I could not *possibly* have said any of this any better. As someone who is in computer science, and has studied the psychology of it extensively as part of my specialization, I agree wholly with everything in this post, and the way it was stated.
As someone who has talked to Knighty; I don't think any of the mistakes made are an indicator of a mustache twirling villain, but rather of an unhealthy overabundance of waffling admin syndrome.
I know from experience; it can be hard to be a leader, and be the one to bring the hammer down. But I eventually learned, during my stint in leadership positions, that it is morally unconscionable *not* to bring the hammer down. Weeds flourish in the untended garden; if you want roses, you have to yank up the weeds, and lay down chemicals. Proactively.
Well, I would like to firstly apologize for my earlier PM. I assumed a more biased tone based on your first blog post, and it seems I was very mistaken. I am deeply sorry that I assumed the worst.
This is a very well written and thought-out letter, and I believe Knighty should absolutely follow the advice you have outlined. That said, he won't. I've tried contacting him about trolls and abuse before. No response. I've seen how he deals with such events on a larger scale. It's not too positive.
As I said in my PM, this isn't something we can really get righteously annoyed at him for. On this site, he is god, he makes the rules. If we don't like it, we can leave. That has been his stance, and the stance of those around him for some time.
I can appreciate that added site functionality would help this problem, but Knighty will never listen. He has proven in the past very adamant when it comes to site design. I'd guess that it's a combination of pride in his work and an unwillingness to admit failure in his chosen field, web design.
Also, to any out there who feel I am overly harsh toward our Glorious and Benevolent Over-Knighty, I would very much like to be proven wrong. I would fully embrace any changes he makes upholding Chatoyance's ideals, and would love to once again believe that he's a flawless paragon of ponies and justice.
So, thanks Chatoyance, for being so level-headed about this - I'm again sorry for thinking otherwise. I'm looking forward to the next installment.
Bravo.
Really, there's not much more that needs to be said by me, is there?
You raise excellent points, and the implementation of any of the ideas you mentioned would be a positive thing.
(in your prior post, you mentioned requiring proof of identity. Perhaps small, immediately reversed credit card charges, followed by storage of ONLY the card number via a high security , non-reversible hash? this way hackers would not be able to use the card information, and the site would still be able to determine, to some degree, uniqueness/realness of users.)
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> They're an unprofessional staff with only so much time on their hands, when you're the one in charge and you don't get paid to do something eventually all the drama makes you apathetic.
This would be why the EqD staff burns out as it does on occassion.
Well, I knew you weren't going to stay away forever depite claiming you would.
I don't blame ya though, it's who you are.
Anyways, I'll be here if ya need me or whatever.
Under "No Room For Hate" I spotted a potential typo.
Also, for purposes of avoiding unnecessary terminology, that doesn't need to be included, I'd have recommended removing the term "tribal" and all its derivatives/roots.
Apart from that, I have to say that the letter was surprisingly clear and concise.
As you said, it is knighty's site. It - beg pardon for the pun - behooves him to enforce the rules to create the site he desires. It's his world, but he should know what world he wants.
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As much as I respect Knighty, and see good creative aspects of web design in fimfiction, I also see a distinct lack of HCI training, especially with regard to usability, and regulating user behavior patterns.
I also perceive a serious lack of training in leadership; making reversions without announcements, making changes users unanimously disprove of, ignoring the advice of people who have similar qualifications and unique useful viewpoints, and failing miserably to use moderation tools strongly.
Know what else suffers these symptoms? Facebook. And look where its headed... (Hint; have a peek at the stock figures, then imagine a flushing toilet full of dollar bills.)
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*nods solemnly* Yup, which is why it's what evs. I can only hope things roll in our favor in the future.
Really, this is quite profound. Really, all we need is to have some way to better moderate things.
Im a redditor, and i know of several subreddits that share in your opinion that downvotes are bad. And so, they edit out the downvote button from their CSS.
But I do feel that an upvote/downvote system is integral to discussion, because you can easily point out whether or not you agree with a certain point someone has made. Perhaps some sort of algorithm could be implemented to detect a repeated downvote use against a certain user, and action could be taken that way.
At the very least, leaving it up the choice of the admin for a certain page would work. I.e. the mod of a forum/author of a story could choose whether or not to enable upvoting/downvoting individually, rather than it be a site-wide change.
I agree with the whole removal of the Like/Dislike buttons when you put it that way. It's one thing to tell the writer that you liked the story, but it's another thing entirely when a story gets a bad reputation from having more negative votes than positive. Ever since I started reading stories on this site, I have been actively avoiding stories with more negative ratings than positive, somehow believing that those stories had really bad grammar and/or a poorly written storyline than stories like Half life: Full Life Consequences (which I love to watch regardless of the poor grammar due to it's unusual and spontaneous comedy).
But after reading this open letter and being able to think about the Like/Dislike more in depth, I'm beginning to reconsider my stance on that feature. Everyone has their own opinion about what they like or dislike and it makes it more competitive rather than fun. The main purpose of writing fan fiction is to have fun. If you are not having fun writing your own stories based on something that you love to read or watch, then what's the point? In my own opinion, it is a very good idea to simply remove the Like/Dislike button, and instead, just use the Favorites button to help determine if a story is popular or not. This way, a story doesn't get Disliked into oblivion and still has a better chance of being read by more users. Everyone has their own definition of what is good and what is bad. I really shouldn't let the opinions of others dictate what I should see. But rather to decide this for myself.
Right now, I have only begun to start writing for FIM Fiction. The only reason why I haven't left is because I haven't yet received any harassment comments yet and there have been more likes than dislikes for my first, and so far, only story. It takes me a while to write each chapter since I am a bit fussy about what I put into each chapter, but I do take pride in what I write. If you don't like what I write, then you don't have to read it. It's as simple as that. I won't hate you for it, but I do ask that you please don't dislike my story into oblivion so that other users have a chance of determining for themselves if a story is good or bad. If you do have to say something, then please let it be constructive criticism that can hopefully help with my writing for the future. Negative comments don't really do anything for me. All it tells me is your opinion of the story and that you don't like it.
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I'm certainly glad there's someone like you who has more specialist knowledge than me to back me up on this. I agree with everything you've said. Still, as I've said, I'm not sure how much we can really do to change things. Knighty seems pretty stubborn about this sort of thing. I'm not sure we've got enough members to make a petition he'd listen to. I guess we could all send him copies of Chatoyance's letter, but we might get banned for spamming. That'd be ironic, eh?
It is definitely the case that ineffective and/or inconsistent administration can make any website a hostile place to be--just look at the way FurAffinity is run.
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I definitely agree with the removal of a Dislike feature, though I don't think the Like feature ought to be removed in favor of Favorites--because on this site, Favorites is something distinct, where it saves a group of stories that you wish to be notified of any updates to. Adding a Like to a story simply voices that you enjoyed reading it.
Anyone who didn't enjoy reading a story will not click the Like button. One may, in theory, determine how many people did NOT like a story enough to bother clicking Like by subtracting this number from the number of total views. Thus, from a purely statistical standpoint, the Dislike button is entirely superfluous. Since its only purpose--voicing antagonism towards a story--has already proven to contribute nothing to the social aspect of the site beyond the negative (case in point!), it really should be removed.
Probably the only reason it existed in the first place was copying models for commentary like Reddit or Youtube--not exactly shining examples of model behavior.
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Reddit is not a friendly place. The voting model is flawed in the long run, and friendly subreddits end up not downvoting out of mutual respect or disabled CSS.
That being said, it's ironic that you're being downvoted for this. Have an upvote.
As for knighty and Chato', I'm dissapointed that he ignored all the effort she put into these suggestions without even a reply.
hi. i am the one that wrote your girlfriend. i am glad you came back an i hope you stay. i tried to do something but nothing. dont trust the tcb. they say mean things about you. i want you to write again but its ok if you cant.
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Facebook has problems with constantly making changes, but the stock was basically a bubble. There have been plenty of insane investments into social media over the past decade with much overvaluation. Facebook is just the latest example, though that didn't stop Zuckerberg from making his billions.
Very well put!
I have come to agree with the thumbs-up only suggestion, as after giving it some thought, thumbs down is frustratingly devoid of any useful information about why the story or item was down voted.
There is one idea I would like to add, as an author constantly hoping (begging) for more feedback from users: that whenever the thumbs up button is pressed, the screen prompts the user for a written comment. Yes, behavior can be influenced, and in this case it would encourage more dialogue, especially constructive feedback. What do you think about this mechanism?
Quite a good piece. As for Antagonistic-ness on the Internet, one of my base assumptions is that humans are bullies in nature. We have the potential anonymity of the Internet offers us, and we choose to find others and ridicule or threaten them. One of my my favorite bloggers, retrieverman, stated once that the Internet is a place wherein people go to argue with strangers.
I, for one, wish this to change a bit.
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Here lies my beef with it as well, no one tells you why and you don't even if you know if they read your story or just thumbs-downed out of spite.
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I see the current fimfic model as a toss-up between two competing ideologies: the facebook model (which is "like" only, and removed comments just disappear) and the youtube model (which is "like" vs "dislike", with the ability to vote into obscurity and visible tracks post removal).
Unfortunately, even youtube allows controls on actual commenting which are better than fimfiction - you can turn off comments, remove spam comments, flag for violations and remove ratings if you feel you need to. I don't always agree with it, and tend to lean towards the "freedom of speech" model most of the time, but sadly in this case, it has shown me where that leads.
I would much rather be able to delete completely and silently unwanted comments, turn off downvotes and have proper controls available in groups to actual maintain order. None of those things are true today – the group controls are a joke and don't even work, downvoting on stories has no positive impact that I can see (hardly surprising when you think about it), downvote abuse on comments has no recourse when used in a determined manner (and yes, it is used as a weapon to silence opposition and dissent) and the inability to remove offensive and otherwise unwanted commentary is frankly quite shocking.
I don't really agree with the entire huggy-huggy-love-you-love-me PC crowd, but in this case, the ethos in place serves only those with destructive agendas and should be changed.
Well, I'm glad to see you are still alive and... if that letter is any indication, still hammering away at a keyboard for far longer than I could ever hope to have time to...
You were a very big inspiration to me to pick myself up out of a self-destructive cycle, and, although I'm still no where near as productive as I want to be (Military life drains me every now and then...) I think that I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am today had I not read your story, The Taste Of Grass. So thank you, very much, I hope you will continue to keep writing.
Hopefully FimFiction will see some changes here that will help to make the site a much safer environment. But please, bear in mind that Knighty can only do so much on the website... his jurisdiction only reaches so far as his servers... Sometimes we just have to take the pointless yapping of hateful individuals as just that. Pointless noise. I've had a nice flood of PM's due to my comments, my poetry, and my stories, and I don't even have very much on this site!
~Wishing you the best~
Someone doesn't like criticism. *looking at downvotes on good comments*
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Yes, I know. That is a small part of the reason I am here now, actually, and I wanted to say something about it.
I appreciate that you seem to like my work, and I am always grateful for any support, and I know you had the very best of intentions, but writing my Elde was perhaps not the best thing to do. My spouses worry a lot about me, and your letter made her feel sort of sad for me all over again. It's alright, you didn't do a bad thing, but writing her to ask her to defend me here only made her feel helpless and sad.
All of my spouses would defend me to the death, were it necessary, but there really is nothing she could say here that would matter, or be listened to by the people who hurt me and others. I know from your letters that you only meant to help, but bullies don't want to hear that they are bullies, and the people saying bad things about me, or telling lies about me are not going to listen to anyone.
You seem very young, Anconbur, and I don't want to make you feel bad or anything, but in this case writing to my spouse was not a helpful thing to do. Please let her be, she is the one that has to deal with how depressed and broken I am right now, and that is enough to ask of her.
Thank you for trying, and I have gone and looked at the stuff in the Group 26 TCB, and it's sad to see. But - I know who my true friends are here, and really, that is all that matters. As for setting the record straight and all of that - I am doing what I can right now, as you can see.
So please, I am glad you want to protect me, or my reputation and such, but I feel confident that anyone I would actually want to deal with will know my true character from my real actions here, and the quality of my writing. So... if you can, please, I'll take it from here, OK?
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I wouldn't go so far as to say people are naturally bullies. In fact I believe most people want to avoid conflict. But there is a lot of evidence that individuals' desire to 'fit in' means that they take a lot of the cues on how they should behave from their environment. So I agree very strongly with Chat's reasoning that those who shape that environment bear some responsibility for the behavior of people in that context, whether it's an online community, political party, or birthday party!
I respect and appreciate very much what Knighty et al have built on FIMfiction, it is their party and their right to do with it as they please. But by the same token they do bear a responsibility to their guests, so I hope they'll take these suggestions seriously.
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Perhaps I've simply been lucky in avoiding such things as these.
I agree 100% with all of this. This is how I run my gaming servers, no tolerance, things must be used properly, and everyone must understand the rules or get out.
I'm so sorry that this happened to you... You were one of my favorite authors and I loved reading your stories. I hope that one day you can come back and bless us with your presence once again.
I'm off to download all of the stories just in case the account gets deleted or something...
I'd like to point out that conflict is not inherently bad, as you seem to believe.
1114703
I was very, very clear about that very point multiple times. One example I gave, if you recall, was a hypothetical Star Trek fandom forum devoted to Klingon culture. In that warrior-focused fandom, I suggested that thumbs-up/thumbs-down was a positive benefit and appropriate to the milieu - I even suggested the use of daggers up or down as a stylistic touch.
If you also recall, I went on to offer that this antagonistic mechanism, while perfectly suited to any forum concerning a warrior race, was utterly opposed to the tone, feeling, and milieu of the My Little Pony show, which teaches lessons of friendship, cooperation, and mutual support.
You are completely correct - there are circumstances where conflict-based rating systems are utterly perfect.
But a forum concerning a show about ponies learning how to be good friends and help each other is not a good place for conflict at all, which was the entire point of everything I wrote concerning the subject.
So, very clearly, I don't believe one bit what you imagine I believe, and I did not say anything even close to what you suggest.
Perhaps you were distracted when you attempted to read my posts. Or perhaps you just skimmed them. If you were to go back, and read what I wrote attentively, you might enjoy my careful descriptions of how conflict based forum systems have their place and are useful and good - indeed ideal - in the right context.
But thank you for... trying to join in, I guess.
1115717
You do realize that a lot of the show deals with conflict, right? That's how the characters grow, after all. There is conflict in the show. Fall Weather Friends is an example of constructive conflict, if you want specifics. Though, granted, they do go overboard at the end. Still, the beginnings of the competition (also known as a "conflict") were quite constructive.
Additionally, there are plenty of so-called "antagonistic" things expressed in the show, and the ponies will often be honest about things they don't like. Look Before You Sleep displays this rather well. Applejack's thoughts on Rarity's over-attention to detail is akin to a downvote. Though she did learn a valuable lesson, that things such as over-attention to detail do have their place, that doesn't mean that "downvote" has changed to an "upvote."
In sum, there are plenty of examples in the show that support the current rating system.
Gee, thanks for assuming all sorts of things.
1115818
MLP:FIM isn't actually about conflict. The conflicts are used either to show how conflict is bad - ponies or other creatures arguing, acting poorly, and needed to be taught proper friendship lessons - or the conflict is a struggle where the main character display and demonstrate the friendship lessons they have learned - working together to overcome a mutual threat.
The entire point of MLP is to teach people how conflict is negative, and how to resolve conflict through cooperation. "Ponies, working together, can accomplish anything!" - Twilight Sparkle, first season.
All drama, all stories have conflict. Just because all stories have conflict does not mean that all stories support or encourage conflict, or that conflict is the main point of the story. Transformers is a show about conflict, and it has two robotic sides, each with main characters that are constant. The show is a war show.
MLP is a show about how cooperation is the best possible action to take. The enemies and obstacles in MLP come and go. Some make a return appearance - but you will note that they are redeemed when they do, in the end. Trixie. Discord. In the end, they become friends and learn cooperation. MLP is not a war show, it is a peace show.
Thus conflict based ratings and tools are the exact opposite of what MLP is, stands for, and represents. Thus my points.
Never confuse the mere presence of conflict in a drama as an endorsement of conflict. In an show like MLP, the conflict exists to show how conflict is negative and should be dissolved and eliminated altogether. That's the message of the entire show.
And in assuming that you were distracted, I was trying to be kind. The very page you quote has the material that disproves the very point you were trying to make. By saying you were probably distracted or skimmed, I am trying to help you save face and not seem... well... um.
1115818
You seem to be in denial of the fact that the conflict Chat is talking about is bad. When people go out of their way to harass, bully and torment others for the sake of their own amusement, that is not just bad, it's plain evil. They could take that energy and give useful criticism, but instead they warp it into malicious activity that, correct me if I am wrong, gave her PTSD. Artistic types are very sensitive, as she has pointed out, and anything that is detrimental to their life will have a near instantaneous effect on their mental stability and behavior. I believe she is right in suggesting to remove the "Thumbs Down" because although it will limit a user's judgement of a piece of work based only on Upvotes, but it also prevents the occurrence of downvoting for the sake of hating a certain person, regardless of reading their work or not. When Siskel and Ebert (Rest their souls) did Thumbs Up and Thumbs Down for their movie reviews, they had to actually WATCH the movies first, then voice their opinion, and summarize it with their vote of the thumb. Over the internet, reading or opining on a work is not necessary, you can vote in the negative just for shits and giggles, which is what Chatoyance wants to prevent. Knighty, as an administrator, has the authority to do this and the moral duty to protect his users to safely browse and write on his website.
1118922
You realize that an upvote without reading is just as potentially harmful, right? If you want to prevent people from giving out uninformed votes, remove both options, as uninformed opinions are almost always destructive.
1118936
I don't know, how could an upvote only system be REALLY harmful? If anything, it would make a person read terribly made fanfiction, and they can comment about how much it sucked and/or leave it alone and call it a day. Sure, they won't get the time they used to read back, but there is no harm done. As Chatoyance said, "abuse" of the upvoting system only makes a person temporarily popular, and really, that is not a bad thing. If people did their research and read the comments (if any) before reading a work, then they can prepare themselves against disappointment. There are also filtering systems if you don't like to read certain works. It's not that hard to do.
1118941
It can be easily be abused. Lots of harm can be done be having only upvotes. Let me give you an all-too-common example:
Author: "Oh my gosh, I have so many upvotes! I must be doing everything right! Let's keep on doing what I'm doing!"
Sounds pretty reasonable, right? Well, let's move on to the next step.
Reader: "Hey, this story has lots of potential. However, there are some issues with it. [insert constructive criticism here]."
Still seems pretty reasonable, right?
Author: "You're nothing but a hater! Lots of people already like the story the way it is! They like how I write things, so why should I make any changes? Go away, you worthless hater!"
See the problem now? No one bothered to tell the author he/she was making mistakes. The author then got an over-inflated ego because of all the positive feedback. As a result of this, the author now has the mistaken belief that anyone who doesn't like their story or is providing constructive criticism is a "hater" by default. This, obviously, is not the case. And this case is rather unfortunate. As the reader pointed out, the story had potential. Unfortunately, the fact that there was only positive feedback overly-inflated the author's ego, and now that author is almost entirely incapable of improving.
Thus the dangers of only having upvotes. It's all about balance.
1118973
The worst possible case scenario for upvote and feelgood comment abuse:
Some person feels good about themselves.
The worst possible case scenario for downvote and attacking comment abuse:
Some person stops trying to be creative at all, or even commits suicide from grief.
Let's tally up the results, shall we?
Hugbox: One chuffed person.
Hypercriticism: ruined life, or a stiff.
Hugbox wins by one happiness to a stiff.
Final judgement: criticism is vastly overrated, and downvotes should be abolished.
Thank you for playing, next time on Which Is Better we look at a slice of yummy cake versus a stick in the eye - which one is better? Thank you, and good night.
1119084
So much oversimplification and passive aggression. It makes my eyes hurt.
Chato... I know what you went through as you're well aware, and I understand your resentment at how things went, which is why, while I read all of your four blogs, I kept my opinions to myself. But don't... please don't fall so completely into the absolute opposite of what you want to fix.
Criticism is not overrated. It can be considerate, or direct. It can (and probably should) be friendly enough not to offend the author or discourage them, but saying that it's overrated and downvotes should be abolished... that's too much, even for your arguments. It's censorship. It's counter intuitive and abusive in it's own way. It doesn't help anyone to let them think that they are perfect or to only tell them the good things... granted, ideally if you'r telling them 3 wrong things about their story, you should tell them 3 good things about it (and be specific so that they know you're not just being condescending), but seriously, either extreme won't fix the problem. It won't bring back your joy at writing your stories here originally, or help anyone improve.
Because there are a LOT of people here that want to, and denying them criticism is akin to denying them the boost they need to write more. What is the point of being stagnated in one level, making the same mistakes over and over? I'm telling you from experience: I WISH I had had constructive criticism when I started writing fics so long ago. Instead, I got Elmer Studios. You might have heard of them.
1119107
Actually, I was trying to be funny. I just finished watching an episode of Monty Python's Flying Circus, and was in that frame of mind. You seem to think the worst a lot. That isn't appropriate when dealing with me. I can be silly, goofy, even bizarre, but I seldom try to be rude, and when I do - I assure you it will be very clear.
1119117
I've not heard of Elmer Studios, so I have no basis to understand.
In reading my blogs, surely it must have come across that I value constructive criticism, the sort kindly said and designed to improve and help another. I am not actually against harsh criticism - for those that want that sort of thing, within an appropriate space.
What I think is unnecessary, and even quite harmful, is harsh, hard, brutal criticism -much less actual abuse - being commonplace within a space devoted to writing fun fanfiction about cartoon ponies.
Can not the lessons of how to be a better writer - if they are needful at all in the midst of playing together making silly fanfics - be expected to be offered in the spirit of the show in question? Which is to say in friendship and cooperation, rather than cruelty and condemnation?
Can not ways to improve be presented with love, rather than hate? Must our dialogue be reduced from "your first paragraph contains an error which..." down to "You suck, your work sucks, and you should die!"
This is all I campaign for. Civility.
And if the choice is between people writing awful fanfictions but enjoying every moment, and people being brutalized over their play - and make no mistake, this is play, and Fimfiction is a playground - is criticism really so vital? Are we here to try to train to break into the thin upper crust of financially successful writers... or are we here to play together because we like cartoons?
I think that question matters very, very much.
There are two ways that I could approach this apparently hot-button topic. I could, by my own silly, asinine ways, address my feelings through a sarcastic, and ultimately unsavory attitude, looking upon your words as if the excrement of a farm animal. Or, I could actually be civil and a righteous individual who wishes to state an opinion in a well, thought out composition. I have a feeling that it will be a blend of both.
From what I've read here (and subsequently, the entire four part post), let me begin with sympathy: As one who has been the subject of abusive words, I can understand the very demoralizing feeling that one obtains from the expulsion of insult. It is horrific, terrifying, and, in many ways, deplorable. One should not be the target of those whose sole purpose for occupying space on the Internet is to destroy one down to their very core.
However, I must disagree on your points. Namely, the insinuation that the downvotes employed by the site are unnecessary. They serve a purpose, primarily as one's opinion on another's work and to put to a point that one should improve upon their work. At first glance, the downvote can be believed as unsightly and a blemish, especially without any provocation. But, I think that it needs to be there. Sometimes one downvote is enough to tell you that things should change, and you can always improve.
To abolish this system is foolhardy, I think. You can't simply walk through the very halls of life without a criticism, no matter the degree. It reinforces the notion that anything flies, and whatever you post is immune to such a silly opinion. Building off of this, the lack of upvotes can be just as powerful as a few downvotes.
Once you eliminate downvotes, the same process will occur again. Comments about why they didn't upvote, what they thought was wrong, and any other comments within the same vein will (hypothetically) foster another movement, this time against scathing critiques. A movement that opposes the very negative language we employ can occur and, if successful, will drive those who are brave - or foolish - enough to employ critical vocabulary away, and keeping around the over-prasing denizen. Over time, a culture of hugs and kisses will dominate the landscape and heavily dilute the formerly diverse community.
In the response, insert your Big Brother comparisons here.
It was correct when it was stated that when you hyperinflate one's ego with praise and gift baskets with shampoos and scented oils, he will brand those critical towards him as a "hater." I had acquired this title a few months ago after reviewing a fellow author's piece. When you inspect the comments made by his allies in the blog about me, they act as pawns and knights in the castle of the kingly author, and the author's negativity toward me had brewed hotter within his fanbase. A cause to help improve and create development to be a more successful writer came out as an attack which, as in my flavor of critique (sarcasm), can easily mutate the intention as an assault upon the metaphorical castle.
In beautiful hypocrisy, those who preach the doctrine of the Brony fandom are those who can instill retribution through their ever-adoring fans.
Criticism is an instrument of both positive development and quality control. While I do not condone the actions of the staff nor it's owner, I know that you need to be judged in some way, shape, or form when you submit documents to a site that revels in its readers and their interests. The silliest romance can blossom into a story of drama and beauty. A pointless action scene can transform into an important turn of events in an adventure. All it needs is for someone to express how it can be improved.
Methods, like the composition of gunpowder, have their own flavors, impacts, and smell. They all make a breach the author's castle walls, and deliver the same effect.
Now, don't mistake me as a lover of hatred. I, though scathingly sarcastic in my ways, am always genuine in saying that anyone can improve, no matter the distance traveled to do so. I know that there are those who go out to decimate one's resolve with words. However, there is always a difference between that and harsh opposition. Let me address your Conversion Bureau craziness that occurred recently. I opposed the very foundation of it all with the very core of my being. As a man who is pragmatic and a lover of the trials of the human condition, to say that ponies should abduct us and turn us from our destructive ways via vindictive methods, is a violation of my morality. In fact, my good friend Malfrost puts this into words wonderfully.
That deserved criticism. It deserved it all. Though I was opposed to it, I enjoyed the prospect, even if it was morally degrading to me. But be honest here: In between the muck, did you not see diamonds? Were there not legitimate judgements on it? I know you did. It's all about perspective, and understanding. Your points against bullying, though elementary, are good pointers. It's really up to the author if they want to take critique seriously or not. It forces growth. Those who do not grow are doomed to stagnation, and deserve to be choked out by the other plants around them.
TL;DFuckin'R: Criticism is not overrated. Criticism is the spice of life. Criticism is the breeder of antithesis, and subsequently, synthesis. Do not undermine the power of it, nor its friend the downvote.
1118973
Seriously? Is that the best example you can give me? That due to an over-inflated ego, they will call anyone who criticizes them, even positively, a "hater"? If you don't have skin thick enough to take CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, like correcting spelling errors, grammatical problems or other literary problems like flow or some such, maybe you shouldn't be a writer. I noticed that you haven't written anything for this website. I bet the most writing you have done was for a term paper for school or a report for someone you work for. In those instances, I am sure you have gotten some papers back with red marks noting problems, and those are there for you to improve on. That is something to be desired. But with the downvote system, it is like getting a point off a grade because someone doesn't like you, not for the content you worked on. From what I can tell, Chatoyance wants only the upvotes to encourage people to read works, and if they are not satisfied, they can comment all they want or not comment and go elsewhere, instead of tacking on a red mark for reasons unknown. The key word here is REASON; if there is to be any balance, we need to have reasons behind the downvoting instead of people clicking a button all willy-nilly because their friends asked them to.
1119269
I saw your friend's "musings" and wonder where the hell he got his ideas from. In Chat's universe, the only people who force ponification is ONE terrorist group whose intentions are good, but are really screwy. And what the hell was that about ponies committing genocide? Not one story I read had anything related to that. He is taking a serious point of view on WORKS OF FICTION. Okay, he had issues about Celestia being a divine being, but that is all creative license, if that is the appropriate term. There are thousands upon THOUSANDS of stories that clash with the "canon ethos", so why doesn't he harp on them? And the portrayal of humans being evil, well, that is really dependent on the writer. If you don't like it, don't read anymore of their works, but no need to bully them like some people did to Chatoyance and her family. She never said that criticism is overrated, but the fact that "criticism" is simplified to Thumbs Down without any rhyme or reason, or criticism that basically amounts to a toddler throwing a tantrum and riling up his little toddler buddies to puke and shit everywhere the writer goes.That is unjust, end of story.
1119269
I just read your friend's essay on the TCB.
You, and your friend, apparently don't actually know anything about my stories within the Conversion Bureau universe.
In my stories, Celestia does not abduct humans, she does nor force them to convert - indeed it is a plot point that she is firmly against such things. One of the antagonist groups in my stories is a group that does just these things, and my Celestia constantly works to hunt them down.
Nothing in my Conversion Bureau stories with regard to ponification itself is done vindictively - quite the opposite, ponification is offered as a form of rescue to humanity, as an option to survive. In my stories, the earth is suffering ecological catastrophe, and ponification and emigration to Equestria offers a way out.
More than this, the entire issue of ponification and conversion only exists at all because of the direct request of a human being who extorted a promise from Celestia. In my stories, Celestia is a creature of honor and law, and she is bound to keep all of her promises.
In my future, humans are better and kinder than they are now - every human is fed and watered in my stories, and war has been abolished. Because it was the moral thing to do. The world right now is not as kind as my portrayal of humanity.
I could go on, and on, and on, but the point is that any critical analysis of my work that did not take these matters in to consideration - or which, even worse, completely based itself on an utterly false vision of my work - would be exactly as useful as it was valid and based on reality.
I have gained a lot from the better members of the Fimfiction community. They have improved my writing dramatically, by instructing me, in kindly, friendly ways, how to better my grammar, use of punctuation, even in the construction of plot and character. I have changed entire chapters and the flow of entire novels based on the helpful feedback of my fans. Polite, civil help has benefited me in countless ways.
But nothing whatsoever about the attacks and abuse that happened to me benefited me in the slightest. The only thing rude, sarcastic, mean statements have done for me is make me sad. Not one of my raging detractors ever provided me with a single useful tip on how to be a better writer - indeed their major point was that I should not write at all. That doesn't help.
As for whether or not a group of people who have never actually read my work have decided they hate it anyway - well, that's pretty ridiculous, I think. I don't see how that sort of blind, ignorant hate is useful to any person... pretty much ever. Used against people, blind, arbitrary hate would be called prejudice and bigotry, wouldn't it?
It's impossible to take criticism seriously if it is based on hearsay and an apparent complete ignorance of the subject matter. That isn't criticism at all. And the more passionate that blind rejection is, the more it sounds like hate speech.
I am utterly open to helpful suggestions, lessons in writing, and even critical analysis of my work - I just need the person doing it to actually know my work and know what they are even discussing. I also need them to be extremely polite and friendly. I don't have time for meanness.
But there is one thing I admit I am utterly closed to, one thing I absolutely will never listen to, one thing I will ignore and reject: anyone telling me that my choice of genre or subject matter is somehow 'wrong'. THAT is true censorship, Big Brother control and imposition of aesthetic domination over others.
What a person writes about is sacrosanct. Nobody has the right to object to genre of a writer. That isn't even a subject of discussion. There are a lot of genres on this site I loath - utterly despise. Foalcon, gorefics, torture porn. Torture-snuff porn involving foals. I want to bomb those works and writers from orbit - its the only way to be sure.
But as much as I deeply hate these genres, as much as it bothers me that stories like that exist here, I defend the right of those (sick, twisted) authors to write what they do, and I know that what I want does not matter in this case - my only legitimate response to such stories is to not read them, not comment on them, avoid bothering their authors, and leave the whole thing the hell alone.
It is only fair the same courtesy be extended to me, and to the Conversion Bureau genre - or to any genre, no matter what it might be.
Either we have the freedom to write, or we do not - and no person should have the right to scream or fuss because of someone's choice of genre or subject matter. On that, I stand utterly firm.
I will agree that this feature needs to be removed. A report system requiring you to explain why something needs to be reported needs to be implemented in its place. The complete removal of a downvote system is absolutely retarded, though. Remove the downvote and upvote from the comments. That is something that I absolutely agree with, but if you set it up to be completely downvote-free, then you get what Wanderer said: A pool of stagnation.
People will see the upvotes and think that they're doing an amazing job, that everybody likes them despite the one or two people that reply otherwise in the comments. There are far fewer people that actually tell you why they downvoted, but, with this system that you suggest, you will only be promoting the hand-holding and babying that people get in pre-school. This is reality, as I said on the last blog, and life does not work that way.
Building upon that, those stories that are poor in quality, or absolute crap, will be a lot more likely to be attacked verbally (textually?), because I know that there are people that don't care about quality and will upvote anything that has Luna in it. These upvotes draw more readers, readers that actually care about writing standards, readers that hate when their language is abused, and those readers will do as I do: Light a fire under the author's ass. Then the author will react as you tell them to:
They'll delete any comment not praising their story. They'll block anybody who doesn't feed them with a silver platter. They'll post a poorly thought-out blog whining about how nobody likes them and delete their story(ies). It happens almost every single time.
Maybe knighty could implement something as I said above, a reporting system like there used to be, but requiring actual thought and action on the reporter's side (like a reason requirement to weed out report spams), but removing all means of judgement outside of praise is just as bad as bullying. It's like telling somebody that was born with a horrifying physical deformity that they're physically beautiful (whether they are a beautiful person at heart or not). Sure, it makes them feel good now, but then they have their dreams crushed when the reality sets in, you just became as much of a bully as those that told her the truth by lying to them.
as for the upvote/downvote, i agree. though if you keep upvote and remove downvote, this will become like facebook and start several "downvote" memes...
I would support an "upvotes only" policy for comments, but never for stories. For comments, it is usually much more helpful to know that a lot of people think one is worth reading than it is to know that a lot of people think one isn't. Terrible comments can get reported (with the proper implementation) or just ignored, while merely contentious comments will by and large (I think) have other comments rebutting them, each with their own camps of upvoters. But for stories, upvotes vs. downvotes are a real, easy, fast way to see how many of our fellows have already spent the time to go through a given story and give those who follow a (hopefully thoughtful) opinion on whether they should do the same. The only thing I'd change is the addition of a neutral vote, to indicate "I've read this, and I want to give my opinion and that opinion is MEH."
- well, looking at world how it runs today - most parents failed, or created wrong type of effectivity ...... Yes, humans can be programmed, but not in all directions symmetrically. I think being leader worth of his/her position is something we have much struggle with .. True, diverse and _dynamic_ sense of love is not something we can assume our current culture teaches us - we live in pseudo-humanist era, where humanist-ish ideals only followed on paper. In theory, human with bigger power must have biggest sensitivity, too! As of today it seems both 'culture' as social programming and our 'natural' disbalance both work in very same direction, while in reality they must work in opposite directions!
Still thanks for writing all those paragraphs of thoughts, they much helpful at least for me and hopefully for few of my friends.