An Open Letter to EQD-Featured and -Hopeful Authors · 7:17pm May 13th, 2013
Hi! I'm Twilight Snarkle.
Some of you may know me as the author of a few crossover tales and my tendency to write sadfic/darkfic.
I am also a pre-reader for EQD.
It should be no surprise that pre-readers are authors too. Furthermore, many of us are members of some odd groups. For example, I hold membership in the 'I Hate EQD' group, among others. Why would I do such a thing? Well, if we want EQD to remain the best site for fic, we need to know how to improve. Where best to find that than a group devoted to everything we do wrong?
That's what spurred this blogpost.
Maybe it's the nature of the internet, of semi-anonymity, or maybe it's the personal investment involved in the work, but I am, frankly, amazed at the level of sheer hate and venom for the pre-reading staff. The comments that rail against the staff for 'lack of professionalism', the rather foul namecalling, the wishes/threats of bodily harm upon our persons, the implications or outright declarations of our ineptitude, mental aberrations, or disabilities...
It's kinda grim for a site about candy-colored marshmallow ponies, y'know?
I understand that writing is a labor of love. I write myself, as you might have noticed, and can appreciate the effort that goes into each sentence. To have your work rejected can seem like a personal affront.
But it's not. Usually. I'll get to the 'usually' in a moment. First, let's make sure we're all on the same page.
1) Seth runs a site called Equestria Daily.
2) On this site, articles and art about MLP:FIM are featured.
3) Seth used to post fic updates himself. At that time, fics were given a cursory examination and then posted.
4) Seth later asked for volunteer assistance to control for quality / guidelines for his site. Over time, those guidelines have changed / been refined.
5) The pre-readers, those aforementioned volunteers, read through a fic until one of three things happens:
a) The work is rejected permanently for violations of guidelines (this is called 'sunning', in reference to the fiery orb of light).
b) The work is rejected temporarily for quality reasons or lack of clarity about the above guidelines (this is called 'mooning', in reference to Luna's home-away-from-home). We have, over time, adopted a three-strike rule for these instances.
c) The work is accepted and posted on the blog.
That's it. That's the role of a pre-reader. We approve/reject stories based upon the guidelines we have been given by Seth. This has a few side effects which have angered some folks, which I will attempt to address here.
1) Cryptic or absent rationale for rejection.
This is due to the initial concept of pre-reading. We are not meant to be editors, but quality control. This often means we look for negative first and foremost and ignore positive. Alas, it's the nature of the beast. Many of us, in our rejections, do refer our authors to other resources that can provide editing assistance. A few of us provide line-editing on our own.
2) Second rejections for issues not brought up on first rejections.
This can be upsetting, and understandably so. However, once enough problems are detected in a story to reject it, it is often sent back to the author for repairs and the pre-reader moves on to another story. This can result in later parts of the story introducing problems that were not detected on the first pass--or the edits to the first-pass issues introducing those flaws.
3) Lack of clarity on guidelines / restrictions / rules for EQD
This is a big one, and is part of the reason behind our recent survey. We are trying to take the various disparate guidelines we've seen over the years and consolidate them into a single format that we can all work by.
4) Previous History
There are some tales that have found their way, or continue to find their way, onto the EQD site that many people object to. Some are posted for posterity. Some are posted as a result of our open acceptance of shared-universe sequels (TCB, FoE, etc). Some are honest mistakes. Seeing one of these stories on the blog when your own work is rejected can never be a pleasant situation.
So, about that 'usually'? Well, there are also other things which have, understandably, colored perceptions.
Recently, some email threads have been shared that contained internal conversations. While this particular pony feels the content was tame and the reactions to the content a little overblown, what I feel doesn't matter. The author never should have seen the comments, and by showing them the internal dialogue we failed on a point of professionalism.
Also recently, tempers have flared about delays and rules and some of the items I mention above, and some pre-readers, myself among them, have shown ourselves to be human. For my part, I was rather harsh to an author, publicly, in a way that I thought was necessary at the time. That was uncalled for, and I have apologized, but it remains a stain on the body at large.
So, that's where we are, and this leads me to my question for the populace at large.
Why the hate?
If we, as pre-readers, have wronged you, please let me know here. I will do what I can to answer your concerns. Please note, I will not entertain obscenity-laced diatribes or baseless accusations. If you have a point to make, present it with documentation or evidence. If you have a question, please link to relevant material if any. I will answer with the same. Fellow pre-readers, feel free to jump in and answer, but I would prefer that answers do come from the pre-readership.
Irony with my name aside, snark is best to be saved for another thread.
People still use EQD as a source for fics? That depresses me thoroughly. I mean it's a good place to get started for seeings what's out there but I always cringe when I see authors try to get up there. If it's more than grammar correction it usually includes the heart and soul of the story being ripped out.
I can see why a couple of people are miffed at EqD, but done right hate isn't really called for. When I submitted one of my stories, the pre-reader was really nice and helpful, and with just one strike and some grammar fixes my story was good to be posted. I've never seen the horror stories some writers say happens to them. Are the pre-readers really such evil jerks as everyone says they are, did I just get a nice one, or the one that makes the most sense would have to be that they're human and make mistakes? Plus, some people don't take criticism well, so bashing out at EqD makes their rejection feel better. Only real complaint I have is the wait time, but that's because I'm an impatient bastard.
I actually have a question about the story/update submission process. If the guidelines page has been updated since I last looked and my question is now answered there, just let me know.
If you submit a story with a FimFiction link, do they still want you to provide a cover picture, or will they pull it from the site? As for updates, do you still have to send a separate email with a link, or will they put the story in the updates post without input from you?
I'm considering submitting a story of mine, and I'm sure it'll get rejected, but I'm just not very clear on all the procedures.
Sorry it's not relevant to your post.
The problem I hear the most is more in the nature of the prereading process: The prereaders are given guidelines, but also a lot of room for interpretation (there's really no way arround that given the versatile nature of fiction). This combined with the varying level of professionalism (as is to be expected from voluntary helpers) sometimes makes the process of passing prereading seem pretty whimsical, and only dependent on the prereaders mood.
Given EQD's somewhat exalted status in the fandom, this can lead to a lot of bad blood, when people forget, that EQD is indeed only a fan-project as well, with all the ups and downs that brings with it.
I have more than a few things i would like to say on the subject, however out of respect to the people involved I also believe that none of it belongs on a public forum and I consider myself far too principled to breach that.. If you want to know what I think, you're welcome to ask.
-Scott
I can't say I hate you guys, but I have had an issue with the prereaders that confused the heck out of me. It kinda goes along the lines of your 2nd point, 2nd rejections for reasons not brought up in the first rejection.
My story, Tastes Like Heresy, did make it onto EqD eventually, but it had a rather confusing path. When I first submitted it, the prereader said he liked it but rejected it (without a strike) so that I could change ithe framing device from an odd journal format to something that made more sense. I liked that framing device, and so did my prereaders, but I knuckled under and changed it.
Then I submitted the story again, and it got rejected for some completely unrelated reason. It didn't say there was no strike like the first email, so I assume there was a strike involved. I was upset and confused, but I corrected the newly pointed out problems and submitted my story a third time.
That time it got accepted, as I found out in an email on my way home from Korean food with my family. There was much rejoicing that my family didn't quite understand.
This doesn't look like a case of not getting through the whole fic to see the problems that were already there, as the first prereader liked it enough to post it if it had a different framing device. It doesn't look like errors being introduced in subsequent editing, as the things the 2nd guy pointed out were unrelated to the changes I'd made. It looks more like a case of different prereaders having wildly differing standards. I'm glad to hear you're trying to standardize your practices.
Getting my story onto EqD was a frustrating and confusing process, but I'm still glad that I managed to get my fic onto the site. I wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the traffic I've gotten otherwise.
I could provide the text of the emails from the prereaders in a PM if you'd like. Maybe you could confirm or deny my suspicions that different people read my fic each time it was submitted? That's another thing. Maybe it'd be easier to be consistent if a fic got sent to the same prereader each time it was submitted. How do you guys figure out who reads what, anyhow?
1076227
The purpose of this thread is for public discussion. If there is a third party involved, I invite you to share this thread with them so they can comment.
1076148
This is the sort of comment I would prefer not to see. If you have a complaint, please frame it in such a way that I can answer it. If you feel a story was gutted to appear on EQD, please provide that information.
1076194
I was published on EQD long before I entertained the idea of being a pre-reader. Had I encountered a group of evil sociopaths I would not have asked to join. I, too, am puzzled by the hate. Thus this blog.
1076195
Please do provide links to the image - even if it's the image link on FIM. As for updates, you can notify us at the fanfiction address (the address where you got your acceptance) that the story has been updated and we will included it on story update posts.
1076196 & 1076235
It's this sort of thing we're trying to eliminate. By establishing set standards and improving internal communication, we hope to eliminate these events.
EDIT: Bugsy, I missed your second question. Pre-readers tend to select those stories that look interesting to them. There are some tales that I know I will not like due to subject matter, or characters involved, etc, and so I skip them to allow those who DO like those items to give them a fair shake. Otherwise, I typically grab the oldest story in the queue and read it.
As for whether different pre-readers read your story? It's very likely. If you want to send those emails for confirmation, please do, but I can pretty much guarantee that's the case.
Well, from my personal view on the EQD prereaders I'll admit that it does SEEM as though they all have it out for my fics. I'll admit that I'm convinced that it is merely because I write HiE and who would dare touch that?
I realize, after having read this blog of yours Snarkle, that they aren't calling my work bad, they are telling me how I could make it better! Obvious, in retrospect, but it's really the difference between telling someone they are coal and showing them how to become a diamond.
Now, I suppose I've taken enough of your time with my musings, so I'll ask you a question now I think.
Do you believe that any one genre has an easier time getting posted than any other one?
As someone who is purely a content consumer in the fandom who has no plans to ever write a story let alone submit one to EQD, here are the issues I see with the process.
I think my biggest philosophical issue is with 2). If issues in a story are present but unmentioned in the first/second strike, they should not be used as a reason for a second/third strike. If an author cannot depend on a full report of the errors that would prevent their story from being posted, I don't see how they could ever have any faith in the system.
I also don't like that different strikes are issued by different pre-readers, as that leads to issues like what recently happened with the submission of Green. At the very least pre-readers should be expected to review the previous strike emails before issuing additional strikes.
Aside from those two things, my other irritations with the system boil down to my taste in reading differing from pre-reader taste, which isn't exactly something that could be easily reconciled, not to mention I'm hardly a special flower that you guys should be expected to accommodate.
Honestly I got never had a problem with EQD, but then again I never submitted anything.
Personally I think the reason why there's so much hate toward you guys is because people need some way to vent. Just look at all the hate on the Art side of the fandom, about half of it is hate IMO. Unlike the Art side, us fanfic writers don't really spread hate... we just concentrate it on our "common enemy", EQD.
Just my opinion from someone watching from the outside.
For the most part, I, too, fail to understand the massive amounts of EqD hate. Most of it, I feel, is the result of a bunch of butthurt authors. However, I have noticed some valid criticisms.
So, I guess that makes it question/criticism/suggestion time.
I certainly understand that you're not editors. You're not there to correct every mistake for the authors. That's not the job of quality control. However, this does not at all prevent you guys from typing up a couple hundred words of feedback. After all, if you've determined you can't accept the fic for whatever reason, it shouldn't be that hard (or time-consuming) to type a hundred or so words why. That isn't editing, either. So don't confuse feedback for editing.
To kind of go along with the cryptic rejections, I feel part of that is the result of having only one person look at the story for approval/rejection. One person can easily make a mistake or let bias unconsciously influence his/her decisions. I think Seattle's Angels does it well in having teams of three go out and find the stories they want to feature. So perhaps the EqD prereaders should adopt something similar. Have a couple people look at a story to enact some sort of a checks and balance system. Ideally, this would prevent things from slipping through the cracks (either preventing bad fics from accidentally being approved or preventing a gem from getting rejected). Unfortunately, I imagine this method would also increase the time it takes to approve/reject a fic by a significant margin. You'd also need a way of assigning teams to a fic. And you'd almost certainly need more people.
Still, I think it's an idea worth considering.
I don't hate, I'm just disappointed that Seth keeps stealing my magic cards :C :C :C
I do not hate EQD, but I am disappointed in my experiences regarding trying to get Green published. I'm also very disheartened, because I feel like my efforts have been in vain.
I don't mean to disparage the idea of striving for excellence, but I see other fics that have been passed by EQD and even I can spot errors in them. "The Incredibly Dense Mind of Rainbow Dash" just as a for instance.
I'm curious, sometimes, if you are not doing the community a disservice by insisting on perfection. Seth himself, in his first email to your staff, said that he found that often fics that were "just barely passable" ended up being acclaimed wildly.
Also, assuming we are trying for that perfection, it does not help when two prereaders say a section is fine, and a third cites that as being a problem.
But I am just rambling now. I sincerely hope you fine folks get things worked out. I appreciate your intent, even if your methods have caused me some discontent.
I've never had anything but pleasant experiences with the process, to be honest. The fics I've had rejected were rejected for legitimate reasons, and they were rejected in a polite and professional manner.
The only thing even relatively close to a complaint that I can say is that sometimes it seems to take a while for the fics to go through the process, which I can understand, seeing as there's a lot of fics being submitted and you guys have lives outside of the pretending thing. I'm sure there are changes that can be made to better the process--maybe some form of "second opinion" system?--but I can't say that I've ever been wronged by the staff.
My own experience is that I spent far too much time just staring at my own fic by the time I submitted it to EqD. When I got a no-strike reject for "issues with comma use and dialogue punctuation", what I should have done was either move on or get a fresh set of eyes before resubmitting. Instead, I did yet another editing pass myself, utterly honed in on what I thought was the single issue (Character does something non-verbal. "Then they speak.").
When I got my first strike explaining that, no, my comma issues were all over the place, I basically said, "Well fuck it, I didn't like that fic anyway". I was just too frustrated at that point.
Boilerplate: I think EqD performs a painfully necessary community function, and I think the prereaders get way too much hate. (Because none of you should be hated, good lord, regardless of any unhappiness between you and those communicating with you. Everyone needs to chill out.)
However, this would be a pretty boring post if I just came by to say I wish you felt some love (much like your prereading, we'll focus on the negatives and handwave the positives as "business as usual"). My only two issues are with the (spotty) lack of professionalism and the (perceived*) arrogance of (some?) prereaders. (Amusingly, these apply to staff of both EqD and FIMFic.)
Re: professionalism, as far as I'm concerned you guys are in a customer service position, and should be expected to act as such. Happily for you, unlike people in an actual customer service position, author hopefuls aren't actually standing in your face at a service desk; this is the internet, an asynchronous communication medium. There's no reason to lose your cool or respond instantly to something, so I'm always perplexed when people do, because that's a no-win scenario for everyone involved. You look like an ass and the other guy gets madder or insulted or both, and escalation ensues. In all of my public-or-might-easily-become-public communications as RBDash47 (because RBDash47 really only encapsulates a subset of my identity), I do my level best to be polite, cheerful, and gracious. The latter two will admittedly vary somewhat depending on external factors; the first one never has. I may be brief with someone if I'm short on time, energy, or patience, and the response just can't wait, but I never insult or disparage them or their work.
Re: arrogance, I will only speak to my personal interactions with prereaders in their 'professional' roles as representatives of EqD carrying out their duties, of which I have two examples:
Example the first: When I submitted PONY Legacy for consideration, I received some helpful notes, and I also received a snarky little comment expressing disbelief that I would even consider using spaced en dashes over the "far more appropriate" em dashes. He spent a paragraph(!) telling me how ridiculous my choice was and then ended by telling me that it was just a personal preference of his. If it's just a personal preference, A. there's no reason to tell me about it, because my own personal preference is already apparent by the simple expedient of writing thousands of words religiously using spaced en dashes, and B. if you do feel the need to suggest it, perhaps out of concern that the author isn't aware there are other options (which would be fine), merely suggest it; don't spend a paragraph telling me what an idiot I am because I happen to disagree with your personal preference.
Example the second: I attended the BronyCon June 2012 prereader panel. It consisted of a group of prereaders (I don't remember the breakdown of who; I know PK and Alexstrazsa were in it) who listed everything you shouldn't do when writing, and after each item, called out one of their own members for doing that exact thing, laughed about it, then moved on. When a hopeful author raised their hand and presented a fic scenario they were working on, asking for advice, the consensus was headshakes and sighs from the panel (see "professionalism" above) and the flat response "Don't write that". Put aside how ridiculous that author's proposed idea may have been (I honestly don't remember what it was; it doesn't matter in the slightest). Put yourself in his shoes. He has traveled and paid and sat through your panel with the hope of getting your advice on a story that he very much wants to write, and he is laughed at and told his idea is worthless. I was profoundly embarrassed and even a little angered (I find myself growing angry again as I revisit it to write this) to be a member of the same area of the same fandom as these smirking people. The overwhelming impression was of a lucky group who'd done nothing right and were arbitrarily given the power to enforce rules none of them respected amongst themselves, who saw the hopeful authors as people who exist merely to entertain their whims.
*I say "perceived" here in an effort to give prereaders the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you aren't all arrogant, smug bastards, lording over the rest of us from your perch on-high. I sincerely hope so, and in my personal chatting and commenting and so forth with several of you, that doesn't appear to be the case, for which I am profoundly thankful. However, it doesn't matter if you're all actually wonderful people if you don't act like the wonderful people you are. When you're communicating with strangers in pure text, you have to be so careful, because it is so easy for the reader to misidentify your intent. The same certainly goes in person (see the bit about the con panel above), but not to as great an extent.
For the record, I sincerely hope that if any prereaders are actually reading this, I don't come off as some arrogant prick in this comment. It's all just my opinion, from my perspective. I've spent about half an hour writing it and revising it and rewording it in an effort to make my tone and intention plain, but there's just no way to tell. In earnest, it's meant as nothing more than constructive criticism slash a possible explanation as to why you guys might be coming under fire. I always try to cut people slack and give the benefit of the doubt, but it really doesn't strain my imagination to see why a lot of people feel a lot of dislike for you. (I could write a whole 'nother rant on how those people need to grow up and express themselves in a cogent, non-profanity-laced manner like adults, but that'll have to be for another time.) I hope this has been of some kind of help.
1076343
> I'll admit that I'm convinced that it is merely because I write HiE and who would dare touch that?
*raises hoof* yo. I'm your pre-reader when it comes to HiE. I'm willing to dig for the good stuff.
I used to go to EQD for stories back in the day when the community was still policing itself with the star rating. It was a pretty good time.
But when that disappeared, so did my love for the site. Right now pre-readers are often (read: always) contradictory in their responses as to why they won't accept a story. More than one occasion where bias was their only reason for not accepting a story. And horrible, and I do mean HORRIBLE stories ending up on the site which (while apparently acceptable on your technical writing standards) had bad plot, characterization and even one that had attempted rape while being classified as having an 'everyone' rating.
In short, my hate for EQD has had a long time to fester. And I will actively discourage people from sending their stories there as it stifles creativity in favor of a 'general standard' (which seems to change depending on which pre-reader you have the misfortune of getting) that doesn't exist in the real world of writing. But death threats and the like is going too far, and you'll not see those from me.
Not directly related to the discussion, but I've always wondered about the finality of the three-strike rule. I know that the number of fics that could have been posted, but failed a third strike, probably isn't that large. And you do need to keep the level of fics being submitted low enough to deal with. Still, wouldn't it be merciful to change the three-strike from forever (
) to a few months before allowing a resubmission?
Personally, I couldn't give two craps about EQD in general. Nothing personal. I just don't care....not too surprising when my computer tries to crash every time I go there. But back on topic.
I hope that EQD thinks hard about who they allow to be pre-readers. IMO, it should be balanced. For example, If I was a pre-reader, I'd be that guy that If something looks GOOD, I'd be more likely to miss errors. If it was literally painful to read due to 100+ typos, I'd feel inclined to sit there and remember what types of problems there were.
Granted, I wouldn't get much DONE....but still, It takes all kinds, I guess.
But more to the point.
I just don't care. I respect you guys, I really do. But I just can't bring myself to care about something I am physically unable to witness. Hell, for all I know, my comment could be useless and this could already be part of the Guidelines. In which case, Please ignore the man in the Blue Telephone Box.
Hey, Snarkle, what's it take for a guy to get the link on his story updated? I've been trying to get One Night In Manehattan switched over to point at FimFic instead of Google Docs since I posted it here, and I swear my emails must be falling into a black hole or something.
Beyond that, I've never understood the hate for the prereaders. Maybe it's because One Night cruised through without so much as a comment, but it seems like despite all the instructions on the submission page and the Big Bible Of Fic Writing linked, people still have a really tough time understanding that EqD is meant to be a showcase for good fanfiction more than a clearinghouse for everything, and that the prereaders aren't here to teach Creative Writing 101. Any way that could be made more clear, for the satisfaction of all involved?
1076343
Eh, on the face of it I'd say that all genres have an equal chance. But that's ignoring the unfortunate truth that many genres attract the newer authors. This leads to a glut of wish-fulfillment tales with very little development. HiE is one of those genres. As someone who wrote a HiE crossover, though, I'd say it IS possible to get them on the blog.
1076357
This is part of the process we're investigating with the external and an internal survey. Changes are afoot, but we are moving slowly so as to make sure we improve where we must.
1076370
Thank you.
1076490
As above, we are working on changing our processes. I don't know that we're set up to do group reviews of work, though. Our backlog is large enough without slowing down processing by 3x. Still, it's something I'll be sure to mention.
1076644
I appreciate your willingness to work with us on this. "Green" is one of the reasons we're having this conversation, and it has caused us to examine a few of our methods. Thank you.
1076675
Fair enough, and thank you.
1076717
I understand this too well. Clarity is a hard thing to judge, especially when one is immersed in review-mode. Thank you for bringing this to light.
1076733
You bring up valid points, and you are correct. We have not always presented ourselves in the best light, and it takes a dozen good interactions to offset one bad one. You do not present yourself as unprofessional in the slightest. As EQD has grown, we pre-readers who were chosen for our ability to work together found ourselves being given more and more of the Public Relations seat when it comes to fic, and we've not always been good at it. That said, these responses help us recognize and address them, and address them internally we shall.
Again, thanks.
1076792
While we are working towards consistency--which I mention in my blogpost--we are not perfect. Please present the name(s) of the stories if you have specific complaints about a given story. "Rejecting for bias" is a valid complaint but without a story to review it's not something that can be answered.
As for a general standard, I'm not sure how experienced you are in the world of traditional publishing, but modern publishers often reply with a 'no thanks' boilerplate, if they reply at all. Take it from someone who's been trying to get a novella professionally published for some time now. It's very easy to get editorials and articles printed, but once it's something bound it's another world entirely.
I'll catch up on additional replies later tonight. Thanks to all of you who are keeping this conversation civil.
1076847
We're talking about the finality of the strikes, and the entire structure, actually. It's a valid idea, and we can take it a number of ways. Thank you.
1076848
Being selected as a pre-reader is more about how well you work with the rest of the crew and how well you've shown yourself as an able and friendly editor. I got my wings by running a review thread back on PonyChan and writing some stories that made 5 & 6 stars back when that was a thing. New blood is added fairly regularly, despite what you may hear about us being a closed group. In fact, our most recent addition (who might choose to name themselves here) has done wonderful things with the queue's throughput.
1076882
Send me a PM so I don't forget. You should normally be able to send a note to the blogponies but if that's not being answered PM me and I'll kvetch.
Maybe you can finally help me with a question I've asked before. Well over a week ago, I was directed to send an email to one of the site's Admins, Moderators? I'm not entirely sure, but I was directed to ask him my questions. My questions relate to Fallout: Equestria fics, it's frustrating to try and get answers, but not receive any answers. I know you guys on EQD are probably busy, evaluating fics etc, but I was hoping you might be able to help me get some answers.
I basically just have two questions
1. How do I find out which Fallout: Equestria fics are close to getting their own pages on Equestria Daily. I ask because this is when a story reaches Major story status, which is something a lot of Fallout: Equestria writers would like to reach.
2. If you are unable to inform me, do you know who I should ask?
1076922
That... is a very good question. When I get home this evening I'll pester the blogponies and find out your answer. In the meantime, if any pre-readers or blogponies reading this know the answer, please pipe up!
1076931 Thank you
. Sincerely thank you, I've been trying to get this information for ages. It'll help me prepare for a few things, like updating all the wiki pages for the next major story ^^.
1076888
I think this says enough.
Thankfully, all of my stories seem to have gone through easily enough. Although Blue Wings probably shouldn't count, as that was submitted an age ago, and likely wouldn't hold to the current standards. The other two breezed through easily enough.
I will however echo Karrakaz on one point - some stories are truly awful, yet get on the site for some ungodly reason. The worst offender that comes to mind is "Human". Meme spouting drivel that somehow slipped through the cracks? It's almost insulting to the rest of the fics to see it there.
Then again, I'd also kick FO:E off the site as something completely undeserving of its popularity, but, well, that isn't gonna happen any time soon.
But yeah. I don't really have any complaints myself, other than seeing the odd fic or two on eqd that really, really have no business being there. Carry on!
(ps: get Green through, dangit!
)
1076888
Oh, I don't imagine the backlog will allow you to even attempt having the prereaders look at things in teams. That, I think, is perhaps something to look into once the backlog is down a bit and you have more people available.
And now that I mention it, I'm curious. How many prereaders are there? And to go with that, how many submissions per day?
1076278 No can do, so I'll say what I can, but I feel it's a little too subjective and limited to be of much use.
Between my own experiences and reading some rejection letters for other authors, I have noticed three things that I feel are likely a major—if not the—cause of the anger.
Firstly, I want to state what anger actually is. In short, anger is the human defense against an inability to negotiate in the face of having their needs met. It doesn't matter whether negotiation is possible, it only requires that a person believes that this is the case. Now, The EqD pre-readers aren't explicitly there to meet anyone's needs, but if you give people cause to feel that they are not being treated fairly then you have to accept some responsibility for the emotions cause as a result of that.
Now , the three items:
1. It seems almost impossible to guess at what the EqD pre-readers are looking for. When it comes to grammar, sure, we get that for the most part it's a case of right or wrong, but when it comes to the story I'm not sure anyone this side of the fence really has a clue. I've seen really atrocious but grammatically sound stories get posted, and several unsound but otherwise good stories get rejected. As a reader, I'll take the grammar errors over the soullessly bland stories that make it through EqD almost every time, but as an author I can easily understand why myself and other authors get frustrated over invisible benchmarks.
2. A lack of standardization is the surest way to raise someone's heckles. Even though I look back and my first submission and wince, it does not diminish the feelings of anger I get when I see fics published that have the exact issues that I have been failed for. I'm not pretending for a second that having such standards is easy or anything, but, if you're trying to understand the reaction, this has to be a huge contributing factor. In many ways this overlaps with point 1, but the difference between having applicable standards and making them visible is important.
3. I think this is the least important point in terms of causing anger (but important nonetheless), but I happen to think it's the most important as far as professionalism and communication goes. In the majority of feedback that I have have come across, including all three rejection letters I have had, the pre-reader has demonstrated the inability to separate personal preference from objective defects. I honestly believe that if you can't make this distinction (see RBDash47's en dash example), then I'm not sure you are sufficiently qualified to judge literary work of any kind. It's a strong position, I know, but it's one that I genuinely believe in. Ability to write prose in no way demonstrates ability to provide feedback or communicate effectively with service users. And yes, I do believe I am sufficiently versed in literacy, communication, and philosophy to make that judgement.
EDIT: I also have serious concerns about the assumptions made from the EqD pre-reading/fiction survey. As someone well versed in how to interpret data, what I saw was someone taking the information they wanted from it, and not the limited information it actually showed. It was a little worrying.
I don't hate the prereaders (although I am not a fan of some of the other staff), but will admit my occasional disappointment in how prereaders approach fic sometimes.
My own first-hand experience with prereaders has not been awful nor has it been outstanding. I have only submitted two fics and never resubmitted either one. The first was when I was still new and less than perfect (I'm still nowhere near amazing but have improved over time). It was of course rejected, and the reasons were mostly valid, but I also felt at times in the response that the story had not even been read. For example, the prereader pointed out a grammatic error in there being no space after ellipses. However, there was not a single ellipse present in the fic.
I soon realized I really didn't WANT to be featured, I just wanted to write, and as luck would have it, I found myself being consistently featured on FiMFic with no idea of why. The second time I submitted was more because I was pressured to than anything else (Thanks, Steel Resolve lol). After one too many people saying I should submit and they were certain it would be approved, I shrugged and caved. My disappointment this time was mostly due to time and the poor quality of stories being posted while I waited three weeks for a response. Friends of mine were having their stories read and featured within 72 hours while I continued to wait, and I can't help but feel it was because those people are 'bigger' names and because none of my friends in fic are prereaders for EqD, making it probably a bit more difficult to be noticed since they are likely assuming I'm an unknown newbie with no skill. And I can understand this assumption since I know the story in question had a title that likely made them headdesk and hope someone else would take care of it so they wouldn't have to (as was the goal of the fic).
The response I received on this one was less than pleasing, as it pointed out passive narration that wasn't present and also called out the conflict fueling the comedy to be so silly and stupid that they didn't want it featured. Again, the concept was intended to be silly and delivered in a way that pays off and exceeds the expectations that I wanted the reader to have (pleade don't think I'm narcissistic for saying this, as I do appreciate the feedback and constructive critcism that prereaders offer).
If anything, my main complaint would be the quality of fic that does make EqD. The best examples that come to mind being 'Clop It!' and anything by ImJustABrony (I believe he's had multiple features but I may be mistaken). The former of these was actually a bit offensive to see accepted by the site, as it not only has horrid characterization, but it's also incredibly homophobic without being funny (as was the goal of the fic). The latter, well, the best way I can put it is works by IJAB are grammatical messes that should have been put through an editing wringer before being accepted, and seeing them accepted in the state they are leads to my belief that there is definitely some form of favortism in the prereaders.
Now I don't believe that favortism is wrong per se. I mean, a prereader shouldn't approve a story just because it's good. It should be because they also personally enjoyed the story and want their name/number attached to the approval. But on occasion, the quality of some accepted fics does imply that favortism takes more precedence than it should.
I hope this feedback helps some. I believe the prereaders are more than capable, they just need some postive and constructive feedback instead of blind hate from rejected writers.
At the risk of distracting the conversation, anyone who needs a bit of a fiction-related giggle to blow off steam might want to go and read this article: Don't make fun of renowned Dan Brown
1076958
No, it really doesn't. Rejecting for perceived lack of quality is not bias. I do want to address your concerns, but have little to go on here.
1076971
A smidge over 30 at the moment, in various states of availability, especially due to exams / etc.
1076972
1 & 2) Standardization is important, and a good metric of standardization is whether everyone knows what those standards are. This is something we're addressing, but that in no way diminishes the fact that we have been lackluster here in the past. A valid concern, and thank you for bringing it up. Once we've finished our review, you should see something in a public vein to point to as standards of acceptance.
3) When I send a rejection (or even an acceptance) and include personal opinions, I make an effort to state "I would prefer x but y is acceptable." Again, this touches on standards, but it also bears on the people doing the review. I'll be sure to include a suggestion that we consider an obvious separation between 'Official Technical Reasons' and 'Personal Opinions' in our messages.
Thank you.
1076973
Thank you for this. We do need the feedback, which is why I've started this post. That said, I'd like to see the reviews we sent for your work. Would you mind PMing them to me?
1077032
Huh. I was under the odd impression there were a lot more. That's rather eye-opening, actually.
1077032
Green, Steel Resolve's Romance story, to name a prominent one.
First pre-reader liked the first chapter. The third did not:
Relevant blog here
This is bias, plain and simple, and it speak volumes to the 'professional attitude' of EQD staff.
1077032 I'll try to get those to you when I can find them and browsing on a computer instead of my phone lol
1077068 It was something I was trying not to get twisted up over at the time, but you remind me of a conversation that I had with Djthomp after my first rejection.
Now, first up I want to state clearly that the pre-reader was absolutely spot-on to reject it for all the listed technical reasons the first time around. That is not in question. However, in both that rejection and the second, it was mentioned (although I had to press the second for detail) that the pace was altogether too slow. This was frustrating in particular because I was getting good feedback from elsewhere that the different approach to an emotional story was exactly what they liked about it.
Now, of course I accept that thumbs and views do not define a story's relative worth, but when I'm getting fairly specific feedback that some folks enjoy exactly what EqD is rejecting, I have to wonder exactly what's going wrong. It was hard not to get the impression that what they were really saying is that either they, or their projected readers, had the emotional and intellectual capacity of a bagel. It's an emotional response and thus of little value, of course, but almost a year of growing and learning have done almost nothing to dissuade me from that impression.
Still, subjective comment is subjective, and I appreciate the limitations that come with it, and it's no surprise that someone who writes as I do has found barely 1 in 10 EqD posted stories to be worth reading, let alone enjoyable. I write what I like to read and I'm in a minority on both counts. That's just something I have to live with. Then again, that's probably why a certain someone occasionally nudges me to apply to be a pre-reader.
I'm tired of hearing about the "hate" of the EqD pre-readers. I can't believe that there are so many hating for such an objective and thankless job. I hope that this is all soon forgive and forget on both sides of this issue. Also what about the whole love and tolerance thing?
If you want EQD to be a good fic site you need to provide some value to the reader. Currently EQD does not do this. Authors submit stories and they may or may not be put up. Do pre-readers search out currently unlisted stories to index on the site?
You could add a yes/no option to the submission form asking whether or not the author has had their story looked at by a second pair of eyes (not including close friends and immediate family.) And next to it would be a link to /fic/ where they could find those eyes. This might help cut down on some of the complaints.
1076847 I second this.
1076278
Bah, just ranting based on what I've seen in the past and what I've seen some of the authors I've helped do to try and get on EQD.
If you care, as a pre-reader, then have you ever felt what I feel? That to appease the pre-readers at EQD stories have to compromise either elements that make them unique or tone down their creativity to make things more 'mainstream' (as much as the term 'mainstream' can apply to this fandom) and thus palatable for what the pre-readers interpret as what their 'audience' wants?
Edit: I don't care about examples or particulars, I'm just talking a general sense.
1077068
I'd like to offer a quick counterpoint:
Personal preference is not bias, it's preference. Even in the real world of publishing, no two editors will be the same. One might have a bit more tolerance for exposition than the other. One might prefer stronger hooks than the other. Until someone invents a perfectly rational, quantitative method of analyzing stories, those personal preferences will rule the selection process.
It's unfair, but it's how the world works. The fact that the pre-readers are cognizant of this problem and are working to improve their process, even in the face of all the hate they get, says a lot about them.
Green may be the rare case (and yes, they are rare) of a fic being rejected that, in retrospect, should have been accepted. I'll take a look at it later tonight and judge for myself (note: I'm not a pre-reader, but I know something about writing). Regardless, the fact remains that the pre-readers have to slog through an ocean of poor fics to find the ones that deserve to be featured. They don't always get it right, but theirs is a human endeavor and thus imperfect.
What isn't warranted, regardless of anyone's individual circumstances, is the degree of animosity that I see directed toward the pre-readers everyday. It's clear to me that this animosity doesn't stem from perceptions of bias or unfairness or unprofessionalism, but from some deeply personal wound.
Show me a person who hates EqD, and I'll show you a person who has been hurt by EqD.
1076958
1076972
(Just spot-checking a couple of comments for a reply here, but not really to single these ones out. It's more of a general response.)
This type of response is one we get frequently. "Story A already on the blog is clearly worse than my story B that was rejected." Well, there can be several reasons for this. First, story B may be the umpteenth "Luna's sad about being exiled" story we've seen that day, while story A may have been a completely new take on something that was refreshing to see. Second, how sure are you that story B is actually worse? It'll certainly have its own supporters. And then they go on to say that this proves EqD has arbitrary standards because... they don't match the poster's own arbitrary standards. Or because story B is popular. I hope that I don't have to explain that popular and good are not the same thing.
Are pre-readers going to match every individual's personal tastes? Of course not. What are your twenty favorite stories? What stories do you think are overrated? What stories do you think are underappreciated? Would everyone agree with you?
And no, we don't only approve stories that we like. I've supported posting of stories I didn't like because I thought they were well-written. We can and do approve stories we didn't personally enjoy. And we have a lot of experience in knowing what constitutes good writing. It's more than enjoying a story. It's being able to pick it apart and understand specifically why you liked it, or why it produced a strong reaction in you, even if you didn't like it. In various forums and under various names, I've given detailed reviews to over 250 stories. I have no way of knowing how may of those actually tried to get on EqD, but I have counted over 30 that made the blog because of my help. I still do private reviews, and some public ones by request. Believe it or not, I do give a rat's ass.
1077068
Put yourself in this scenario. You have a spreadsheet of stories waiting to be evaluated. You've read the first chapter of a 30-chapter story, and it's already clear that the story is not going to be up to snuff. Even if the rest of the story were perfect, you'd still send the first chapter back to be fixed. Are you really going to slog through 29 more chapters on the chance that there's some new type of problem that you don't want to come as a surprise to the writer when he tries submitting again? It's not our job to give detailed feedback. Let me say that again: IT'S NOT OUR JOB TO GIVE DETAILED FEEDBACK. Some pre-readers, including me, like to do so, but that's a bonus. It's the writer's responsibility to find his own problems or enlist qualified help to do so. That is not our responsibility. Does that mean the diligent writer is guaranteed to find all of the problems that caused the pre-reader to reject his story? No. But it will find the vast majority to where the pre-reader can tell him he's close and give a short list of final issues.
If we reject a story, it's because we are certain. If we have any doubt, we ask for a second opinion. That's a huge step toward eliminating bias right there: If I I'm on the fence at all, or if I can't point to many concrete reasons why I don't think the story works, I ask for someone else to have a look. We all do.
Finally, I can't emphasize this enough: Learning to hear, accept, and use criticism is as much a part of good writing as the typing is. Without fail (so far in my experience, at least), the best authors are, not coincidentally, the ones who absolutely do not consider themselves above criticism, and even welcome it.
1077257
We get quite enough submissions to deal with already. We don't need to add to our workload by seeking out more. There is no dedicated process, though pre-readers have certainly encouraged people to submit something when we come across a story we thought was well-done. So, more of an incidental thing than a dedicated effort, but it does happen once in a while.
And while we are looking for things that readers will enjoy, we're also not a popularity contest. If that's what we wanted, then we'd just post whatever gets in the feature box here.
And on the subject of Green—its fate has not been determined yet.
1076882
I too have this problem. Might I trespass upon your good will at some point as well, Snarkle?
1076888
PR's a bitch. I've said this here and there, but I'll say it again: You couldn't pay me to join your ranks; I have serious trouble coming up with a more thankless job.
1076931
1076922
Isn't Midnight Shadow in charge of the FoE roundups?
1076847
This possibility has been brought up before. so... just know that it's under consideration, but I don't know how much support it has yet. There have also been stories in the past that were rewritten so extensively that they're effectively new. These can be resubmitted, unless they're still running afoul of content restrictions.
1077477
1076882
Feel free to PM me the info as well. I'll make some noise and see if multiple voices help.
1077514
If this was put in place, I don't imagine that 4th-submitted stories would pop up very often. But maybe I'm wrong. *Shrug*
1077520
You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir.
1076644
FWIW, I'm pissed about Green too. When asked my opinion about EqD and what they need to change, I said stop being so damned hard on grammar. No one cares *that* much. Green should have been featured, IMO*. The later chapters were good enough that, if you edited the first ones similarly, i would have passed it. Assuming the CMC bits were NOT the reason for rejection.