Thoughts and meditations. · 12:23pm Jan 21st, 2013
I realized something the other day.
With its most recent update, "Sunshine and Fire" has passed 100 000 words in length. Now, this should by all rights be something to be happy about, something to pat myself on the back for - and I do see it as a proud achievement as well, don't get me wrong - but I find that this realization mostly just kind of bums me out.
The truth is that I feel like the quality of my work has plateaued. That's a big concern for me, since improving my work is a big part of why I write fan fiction in the first place. The reason for this... stagnation is probably the lack of in-depth input. I hope this doesn't come across as disrespectful, since I absolutely do not blame anyone for enjoying my story casually, and I certainly appreciate the comments I do get simply for indicating investment and interest, but I'm sure you understand that the absence of any serious dissections of my style and methods/assertations of quality is still kind of troublesome to me. There's little actual criticism, and what I do get is either conceptual or noting typos (which are still useful for making sure I don't get too full of myself, heh). That's been the situation for over a year now, I reckon. I have this impression, truthful or not, that I'm aware of pretty much everything that's wrong with my writing, but that I let things slip because there's no one to push me and prod me about them.
I've been wishing things could be different for a while, but I don't really have any idea what to do. It looks like I'll be writing "Sunshine and Fire" for quite a while, possibly years to come, and while the realization of my master plan would make it a worthwhile experience either way, it would certainly be a little depressing to spend all this time in a state of critical blackout. So I figured, eh, I might as well talk about it here and ask if anyone has any ideas.
The thing about 100 000 words is that they're such a major hurdle to accessibility. 100 000 words means I can't really make use of any of of the established channels for fic-reviews the MLP community has. Hitting up a review thread on /fic/ (either one) and laying a story of this length on someone just doesn't seem feasible, does it? It would be disruptive and overly demanding, if not explicitly forbidden by reviewers' own submission guidelines. It doesn't seem like I could just pick a reviewer and submit a chapter at a time either, since critiques of first parts of the story - now put down about one and a half years ago - would no longer be relevant to me today. In fact, I'd functionally be wasting the reviewer's time by having them cover something someone else has already handled. I did actually have the first couple of chapters looked over by two folks on Ponychan when I was just starting out - Vimbert and Cassius. I received useful advice from them and got rid of (or at least reduced) some bad habits of mine. Even though I didn't integrate their corrections into already published chapters (perhaps I should have), I did try to keep them in mind for subsequent chapters. Unfortunately, Vimbert quit reviewing when he got his post on Equestria Daily, and I accidentally dropped Cassius due to a misunderstanding. (To be exact, I forgot to respond to one of their reviews and then forgot I forgot to respond to one of their reviews, leading them to conclude that I wasn't paying attention and move on. If you're thinking that it must really burn to have wasted such a great opportunity due to a stupid mistake on my part, you'd be right.)
So what other options would there be? A beta reader? I've never had a proper one and I don't really know how to get one. The main problem is that I have friends that like MLP, and I have friends who are immersed enough in writing to be able to give in-depth feedback, but there two groups just don't overlap anywhere. Reaching out to you, the readership, is also something I've considered, but it's a thought I'm fairly ambivalent about. This would be a major commitment, and a major responsibility, and I'd feel pretty hesitant about handing it off to any well-meaning stranger. Another issue is that I'm not sure how much of my overall plans for the story to share with a beta reader. Do other writers just handle it on a chapter by chapter basis, without spoilers? I wouldn't know. This is, of course, purely hypothetical at this point anyway.
At the end of the day, I realize that this situation is something I've brought on myself, in part I suppose because I've kept the rest of the rest of the MLP fanfic community at arm's length, not really investing enough to warrant much attention. I'm a regular poster on exactly one MLP fanfic forum thread and my position regarding my role there has always been that I contribute little, but demand less - meaning I just drop in, bring up a subject sometimes and toss someone some advice sometimes, but do not seriously help other posters with their projects. I've felt validated in this approach because I never push my own story on anyone there either, but... I don't know, it still feels selfish. I don't really read or comment on other fanfics much myself either. This is partially because I'm having some problems with reading in general - I'm currently stuck in the middle of four separate books that I like yet do not have the motivation to continue [1]. For MLP fics, I have five stories in my backlog, two updated stories in my favorites and one I've had open in one of my tabs for literally weeks. I realize that this is nothing compared to the backlogs some of you have, but this bothers me. (I've also made it a point not to read many other adventure stories to keep my own free of outside influence.) So yeah, this whole area is something I feel like I should see about doing better at.
Oh, and again, I do hope this rant doesn't make me look unappreciative. At the end of the day, I am still damn glad for the fans I have, and I'd like to improve my writing as much as possible to give you the best possible story.
So, what are your thoughts?
[1] - The four books in the order they've been left hanging, if you're curious: Bulgakov's The Master and Margarita, Dan Simmons's Hyperion (reread), the fifth volume of Spice and Wolf and the first book of the Rogue Squadron series.
i always look forward to your updates.
wow, that was a lot of text, you should add a TL;DR version of that.
many online fanfic readers don't like being overly analytical when it comes to certain fics, and yours happens to be a part of that group; most of us read because we like reading, and as long as there are no major errors or problems most are just happy to read, show their appreciation and move on (regardless of any thoughts about the writing). sure, some readers are extremely good at providing large amounts of constructive criticism for stories which are already quite good, but everyone have a limit to how much they immerse themselves in analyzing something they just want to enjoy.
if you do want to get constructive criticism you'll have to hand it out to unknown individuals, friends are great, but they often lack real dedication to analyzing another friend's text. you said something about the length being a problem, well, you're looking for criticism for your style/writing in general, correct? that isn't something which is confined to specific chapters, you don't need to read 100k words to see it either, just one or two chapters would work, as long as they don't want to read the whole story.
you should go and join one of the sites very handy groups, i think there's one where other authors help each other in return for being helped themselves.
also, since you know all (most) of your problems, would you mind telling us about them (in short please)? might make it easier to keep them in mind the next time we read a chapter of your story.
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Indeed, and as I said, that's perfectly fine but can still end up a bit unfulfilling.
Basically. I think my ideas are vastly better than my execution, so constructive criticism would be more useful directed at the writing itself. However, it's also a matter of ordinary readers' abilty to judge nuances of foreshadowing or finer thematic details being limited since they don't have access to the full picture, my intended revelations and character arcs. That's obviously something that could only be assessed in hindsight. Anyway, setting aside the story completely and submitting some of the later chapters up for review in a vacuum is an intriguing idea, and something I'll be considering.
Thanks for that. I'll be looking into it.
In short? Dialogue is the biggest sore spot. I am terrible at convincing conversation, especially just character-building chit-chat and organic exposition. The best I can do there is either monologues or a simplistic question-answer format. I really struggle when my plans for a chapter include something like "write a scene that explores Character X." In the best case scenario, I can manage dialogue that functions for the characterization, but isn't entertaining to read for its own sake as well. A related issue is making body language varied and subtle. I'm also not very good at creating atmosphere (for example, I can write a dramatic action scene, I think, but I'd have my doubts about quiet suspense) and describing the setting (I've made a point of making physical locations in the story so far as varied as possible in concept precisely to make up for the fact that my descriptions would come off as very indistinct otherwise).
It's issues like these, mostly.
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Happy to help.
about your "problems": ill keep those in mind (provided i remember) the next time a chapter comes out. you could even try releasing a blog post at the same time as you release a chapter; asking people in advance to look specifically at those issues, that might get you results from more than just me and spontaneous critics.
This story, to me, is one of the few really great epic adventures that has been going for a long time here on FiMFiction. However, when you write that the quality of your work has plateaued, I have sort of mixed feelings about that. You've certainly gone into some depth with characterization and character interactions, which is nice to see -- and yet, perhaps it has become overly refined at the expense of vigor. The energy that this tale began with seems to have waned, and it feels like it's getting bogged down.
As you noted, we've got 100,000 words here, and yet it feels to me like we're still in the setup phase, and the real conflict that I'm yearning for still hasn't unfolded. The payoff on this story's promise still lies somewhere ahead, I don't know how far, and I'm beginning to wonder. I don't want this to go like a SS&E story where it starts with a fascinating premise but then just drags on and on and on until I finally lose interest and give up.
Regarding pre-readers... I'm sort of in the same boat, in that I've been writing a long time and never had any pre-readers or proofreaders, and I wasn't sure about the need for them, and I didn't know how to deal with them. Here recently I've finally been smacked in the face by the realization that I do, at least, need somebody taking a look at my stuff and giving some basic feedback. I found a couple of people willing to pre-read, and they've been extremely helpful.
I'll definitely be thinking about how to offer some constructive feedback. Thanks for making your thought known.
I'm not much of a technical literary analyst. I tend to focus on the intergration of the source material into the original story and the overall quality of the story and plot rather than literary style or technical writing. Unless there's someting obviously wrong with it that is.
So far your story is excellent both as fanfiction and as a story.
On another note, when looking for writing critique a large scale ongoing story is not ideal. Nor is fanfiction for that matter. Those are more useful for style development/refinement and practice/experience. If you want to get in depth critique of your style you need to be writing samples or short stories and submitting them for review. Preferably original, not fanfiction.
As for your cocerns over your plateauing, remember that in published fiction normally all you get is a publisher to say yes and an editor to fix mistakes. You get approval but not real input. At least with an in progress story you have the ability to be given input as you go. Even if you are getting less than you want, you are getting more than most published authors. And since not many people have much or anything negative to say about your story, trust yourself. You're good. You want to be better, not sure you can do that with this story. It may be in progress but it has it's own... DNA.
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A fair enough concern. It's kind of a cliche for fantasy series to expand into endless detail and get slower and slower like Zeno's fricking paradoxes - I have no intention of following that example. As far as I'm concerned, the latitude of the plot is at its widest right now. The important thing is that the soujourns into the griffon and dragon kingdoms are not meant to be distractions from the main plot. They are of the main plot as well as counterpoints and parallels to it, with payoffs feeding directly into the final act of the story. This is also part of the reason why this and the next few chapters take place concurrently - so I could deal with these plotlines and Daymare Sun herself "at once," so to speak. I have a feeling this would come across much better if the rate of my actual updates wasn't glacial.
I've mentioned before that I have this story planned for 24 chapters. I've accounted for the possibility that one additional chapter may be necessary, or two if I might feel particularly lavish. I'm expecting this story to conclude at not much more than 200 000 words then.
Sorry, SS&E?
Anyway, I don't know if this does anything to reassure you or not, but I'm not generally of the opinion that a single good premise is enough to support a long-form story. I think you need to keep introducing good ideas... or possibly reveal new facets or variations of concepts already present.
And how much of your plans do you share with them, if I may ask?
I can certainly see the benefit of beta reading, there's something else that troubles me as well. If I keep readers waiting for two months while I finish a chapter, it's going to be pretty painful to delay for a few more days for review and possible editing. That's mostly why I prefer to make note of advice for later rather than make edits based on it right away.
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Well, published authors might not receive feedback from their publishers directly, but they can still look forward to book reviews, reader discussion and such if they are lucky enough to be noticed.
You may be right about that. I don't really see improvement in writing as a matter of concrete steps though, but rather a continuous line. In any case, just being able to pull off some of the things I have in mind would help my growth, so I'm not complaining too much.
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SS&E = shortskirtsandexplosions, a notorious author here on FiMFiction. I got hooked into two of his stories (The End of Ponies, and Background Pony) by their fascinating openings, and the writing style is excellent, but... both stories dragged on and on and only seemed to become more convoluted and rambling over time, until I felt like I was going down a loooong rabbit hole to a world that I couldn't understand or care about.
As for tipping my pre-readers about where my stories are going... That hasn't come up yet. I don't really see it as being a problem, and I don't feel any need to give them the whole outline. Most of the feedback I'm looking for doesn't require that. One of them did complain that my exposition was too subtle and that he had trouble getting oriented in the world I created -- but I've decided not to sweat that for now. Part of the fun is supposed to be figuring that stuff out, not to have it all spelled out to the reader.
Welp, I'll throw a couple of cents in.
Personally, I think body language is something that you've been handling very well. This is one of my favorite examples to point out:
That simple actions spoke much louder than the words. Love it!
Overall, I see no issue with variation, as I have with some other stories. Well, I should say I remember no issues. It has been a while since I've read it through. But why does body language have to be subtle? 'Concise' is closer to the word I would use.
This organic exposition perhaps that is something that could be worked on. Again, it's been a while since I've read it, but I remember a scene where Disguised Celestia flirting with Mr. Exposition in a bar. I remember while reading, I was thinking something along the lines of, "Man, I f I was getting drunk and chasing tail, I would've been like, 'Enough questions. Bend over.'" That whole deal could've probably worked better if she was only able to get one or two bits of information out of him, implying that she went on to similar attempts squeeze information from ponies and then relaying the important bits to Twilight in a later scene. I know that work work for other points where exposition is needed though.
On another note, I'm going to have to echo one of Zobeid's points and say I feel like we've hit a traffic jam at this point. I don't mind traffic jams as much as most, but I have my limits too. You're still in my good graces at this point.
On yet another note:
If you got people waiting for months, another couple of days will not kill them. People will complain, sure, but they'll get over it.
Now to my last point, If I were writing an epic length story (Which I am not and have no experience in the subject.) I would give my editors the chapters as I finish them, get their reviews, make the appropriate revisions, and then release it to the public. That way, I'd be able to see they're predictions and make sure I was not misleading people. I would also be able to gauge their reactions to big revelations which would likely be either 'I see what you did there' or "Wait, where did that come from?"
... Well now that I think about it I suppose that would be a problem depending on how long ago you foreshadowed it. If that was the case, I'd go back and make the necessary changes so that new readers won't encounter the same problem. As for those who have already read up to that point, well, I would accept the casualties and learn from them.
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Whatever you do, there will always be some people who will complain. Well written chapters who take longer to update are better than updating more often with less good chapters. And don't worry about taking 2 months to update, real life comes first, take the time you need. And I have seen stories having 7-8 months between two updates.